Msg# 1655 *SATANIC* 07/03/88 120700 (Read 4 Times) To PHILLIP HANSFORD (Rcvd) Subj REPLY T

---
Master Index Current Directory Index Go to SkepticTank Go to Human Rights activist Keith Henson Go to Scientology cult

Skeptic Tank!

Msg#: 1655 *SATANIC* 07/03/88 12:07:00 (Read 4 Times) From: ROWAN MOONSTONE To: PHILLIP HANSFORD (Rcvd) Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1378 (RE: SATANISM, ET AL) Phil, have you read "Satan Wants You" by Arthur Lyons? I'm readiong it right now and it's very interesting. Lyons hypothesizes that the whole Satanic conspiracy is a giant job of media hype. I can believe it too, from my own studies. There are only a very few cases with any hard evidence and virtually all of these are cases of wacked out teens on drugs getting into strange stuff. My questions about all these supposedly adult survivors of Satanic cults are as follows: 1. Are the police investigating the claims of these people who are admitting to being accessories to everything from rape and kidnapping to murder? 2. If these claims have been investigated and found to be true, has anyone been prosecuted? 3. If these claims have been investigated and found false, why hasn't someone denounced the liars? Seriously folks, IF what these people say is true, they must have names, dates, places, etc. If they went to the cops and the cops investigated it, if could be shut down right? One woman who spoke at a Pagan gathering claimed that her husband was a cop. She herself claimed to be one of these survivors. Why wasn't he doing something? It's a CRIME to withold evidence from the cops. !!! BB Rowan --- QuickBBS v2.01 * Origin: Rock Island (on) Line - Newalla, Ok.- (405)391-9488 (1:147/3) Msg#: 1595 *MAGICKNET* 06/30/88 19:14:00 (Read 1 Times) From: BRAD HICKS To: ALL Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1594 (RE: BRAD'S REPORT ON PSG) (continued from previous message) Also on the cult-crime front: one of the better-attended seminars was led by a non-Pagan. Frank Medina, who is on the Witchconsin Governor's advisory council on gang- and cult-related crimes, gave a seminar in which he went over the material that he uses to teach police officers in Wisconsin about occult-related crime. (If you are in contact with local police officers and want to refer them to a sensible cop, refer them to Frank Medina, 1146 Grant St., Beloit, WI 53511, 1-608-364-3061.) He gave a lot of valuable legal advice, including =the= standard legal references on religious freedom (Thomas vs Review Board of Indiana and Denver vs Landis). He also showed a videotape put together by Jerry Simandle and Sandy Gallant - and that latter name should be familiar, as she was one of the people at the original IAPTM seminar that kicked off this whole fad. Interestingly enough, though no shortage of people in the Craft believe in what they're now calling "generational ritual satanic abuse," when I asked =him= my standard three questions (evidence? indictments? convictions?) he used the same term I use: he admitted it was all a "UFO sighting" and that he himself wasn't persuaded that =cult= killings (that is to say, organizational, ritually-motivated murders) even exist - with the exception of the Troiano case (where the motive has more to do with drugs than Satanism) and the "Lost Boys" vampire slayings (which had nothing to do with ANY religion). This puts the Church of All Worlds (for example) on the side of the witch-hunters and the only police officer I've spoken with on the subject on the other side. Interesting, n'est c'est pas? Oh, Mr. Medina also recommended David Sinclair, _Say You Love Satan_ on the Troiano killings and mentioned the OTO lawsuit against Maury Terry, wishing you the best of luck - because he says it's one of THE most influential books among law-enforcers. And he said he was =quite= interested in MagickNet as a resource, and will probably be =at least= calling into here (long distance from Beloit, Wisconsin, no less) and maybe even getting his office to set up a node. By the way, Frank Medina has obviously been carefully indoctrinated by Selena about how "normal" and "harmless" Pagans and Witches are. Then he spent some time with us - and guess what, folks? Some of that is wearing off! One particular conversation he overheard and relayed to me - I find it medium-grade appalling, and he was obviously anguishing over whether or not to turn them in to the police. He mentioned that he heard one father mention quite casually to some people that of course, when his daughter turned 16 that he'd be the one to ritually deflower her. This IN the hearing of his young, and obviously uncomfortable daughter. Supposedly, he even made it quite clear that this would happen even if the daughter didn't want it! Folks, you may want to call that Pagan Religion if you like: =I= call it child abuse and rape, and if =I'D= been the one he said it to, he'd've had my athame sticking out of his chest and I'd have to consecrate another one. And how do you think this affected the parole officer on the Governor's task force? Speaking of Frank Medina's obvious indoctrination by Circle, it carried with it the same implication that it was =important= that we separate Satanism from Witchcraft, even for law-enforcement purposes. (What, our religion is legal and theirs isn't?) This has even gone as far as a resolution which was according to it passed unanimously at Ancient Ways and at Heartland, and which passed overwhelmingly (but NOT unanimously, and if you see it and it says so call the bearer a LIAR) at PSG that (1) informs the police that Witches and Pagans aren't Satanists, and we'll sue you if you say so, (2) expresses "deep sympathy" and offers our "prayers" for the victims of generational satanic ritual child abuse, and (3) guarantees that we'll do everything within our power to find the Satanists responsible and see to it they're brought to justice. Oh, boy. Remember the 50's, when the Democrats were out to prove that they hated Communists just as much as McCarthy did? Thanks to the CAW folk, we now have big chunks of the Craft committed PUBLICALLY to a UFO-hunt, with hints that we'd like to blame the Satanists, too. (I also really, really don't like the implication that the festivals PER SE speak for the Craft. Really.) When she introduced the resolution, Ayesha of the Church of All Worlds also made a big, blatant and public point of the fact that the resolution didn't mention Ceremonial Magicians as being good guys and non-Satanists -- "because that's too controversial." So I guess we've picked the victims for the next human sacrifice, hmmm? Find any burnt bannock in your breakfast cereal, Josh? It sure looks to me like influential groups in the Craft wanna sacrifice the OTO and the Satanists to the witch-burners, in hopes that if we cooperate we'll escape. *Faagh!* [Spit] (continued next message ...) --- Sirius 0.50 * Origin: Unknown From: Brad Hicks To: Alfgar Maharg Msg #485, 06-Jul-88 11:06am Subject: Re: mence et al OK, I am =not= getting this from a primary source. Until I get some auto insurance matters straightened out, I'm not driving anywhere, let a alone to a law library a half-hour's drive away. Here is what Frank Medina told us at PSG: In settling the case of Denver vs Landis, the Supreme Court set down three tests to determine if a religious expression was protected by the First Amendment. First of all, it must be a sincerely held belief, and the hurdle for that one has been set rather high - you must believe something strongly enough to willingly face imprisonment in order to convince the courts of your sincerity. Secondly, that expression must be a "meaningful part of [your] life", not something you do occassionally or as a hobby. [This lets out about half, charitably speaking, of the Pagans and Witches I've met.] Finally, it must relate to "ultimate concerns," which is the Court's way of referring to spiritual matters such as life-after-death, the meaning of human existence, and so forth. Oh, relevant to that case (and others), Mr. Medina informed us that "THE" standard reference text used and referred to by the Supreme Court on religious questions is _Varieties of Religious Experience_ by William James, and he recommended that anyone who's going to pursue religious law matters be familiar with it. --- Sirius 0.50 * Origin: WeirdBase * St. Louis * 1-314-741-2231 * (Opus 1:100/523) Msg#: 1829 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 15:03:00 (Read 2 Times) From: BRAD HICKS To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd) Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1754 (RE: ONE MORE TIME) I was about to write a rather cynical reply, when I spotted one note of sanity in your posts. I'd say that your estimate of 2,000 is probably in line; certainly on the right order of magnitude. Now, do you buy into the allegation (frequently made by the more bogus cult-hunters like Thomas Elias, or Maurice Terry, or Pat Pulling) that there's one central conspiracy that guides them all? I readily concede that some occultists have committed crimes. I will further concede that some murderers left evidence of occultism at the scene of the crime. Both of these sentences are backed, irrefutably, be evidence. Now, let's go a little step farther from the evidence with a few statements: "These murders were occult-related." Very, very seldom we have motives for these crimes. I have seen two separate motives, neither of which has anything to do with specific occult or religious beliefs, even among the hard-core heavy-metal deranged Satanists. At least one murder (and not unlikely more) was a standard drug-gang related killing, with ritual trappings added almost as an afterthought. (Cf the Troiano case.) Also not unheard of are grotesque crimes committed by people who, on close examination, were known psychopaths before they ever saw a pentacle. While I know of groups which preach such attrocities, I have seen no evidence yet of an organized Satanic religious group AS SUCH committing a crime, so I consider this one unsupported by evidence. Now, one step further into the twilight zone: "A vast, centrally controlled Satanist conspiracy is committing many murders and systematic child abuse." Variants on this sentence can be found throughout the literature, and it contains at least two unsupported allegations: that a vast centrally controlled Satanist conspiracy exists and that this group, if it exists, is getting away with horrible crimes. It's not a coincidence that most of the self-proclaimed "researchers" don't document where they get these allegations. These allegations began with a known lunatic with an Army psychiatric discharge (John W. Todd) and have been defended by an endless array of people who admit they were into heavy drug abuse at the time they "saw" the evidence (such as Mike Warnke). The latest batch of such accusations are put forth by apparent child-abuse and/or incest victims, based ENTIRELY on evidence extracted by trained questioners under hypnosis. May I point out that there are good reasons why hypnotic evidence is not accepted in court? No end of people have been hypnotized and questioned about UFO abductions; they report things that violate known physical laws. Do you believe THEM? I am prepared to consider evidence that such crimes take place; absent any indictments and/or convictions, I remain so far unconvinced. And I do not see ANY evidence that one central conspiracy even exists, let alone coordinates such monstrous crimes. The final step into the twilight zone: "This conspiracy is huge, and contains high-ranking law enforcement officers, judges, and politicians who are suppressing any inquiry into the matter." How can any one listen to that kind of talk with a straight face? Anyone who asks you to believe this is asking you to believe that tens of thousands of initiated Satanists, plus presumably hundreds, maybe thousands of women who are constantly pregnant, plus an endless parade of terrified victims, can do a better job of keeping a secret that one small office-ful of people at the National Security Agency. In brief, then: I admit that lone psychopaths exist, and that they do what psychopaths do. I admit that drug-selling criminal gangs exist, and they they commit crimes. I am willing to admit that just as many of these people are Christians, some of them are undoubtedly one form or another of occultist. If evidence arises, I am willing to consider the possibility that some of these crimes are committed by religious groups and are motivated by (what seem to the perpetrators to be) religious or occultic motives - so far I have seen no such evidence. And I am manifestly unprepared to believe even for a minute that such a group, if it exists, has thousands or tens of thousands of high-ranking members, commits thousands of crimes a year, and covers them all up with a skill that exceeds that of any intelligence agency in the world. --- Sirius 0.50 * Origin: WeirdBase * St. Louis * 1-314-741-2231 * (Opus 1:100/523) <*>Replies Msg#: 1848 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 18:55:00 (Read 2 Times) From: PAT CRUMHORN To: ROWAN MOONSTONE Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1829 (ONE MORE TIME) 93. OK. I know there are many people on this echo who are quite tolerant of fundamentalist christianity. I do not happen to be one of them. Are there like-minded people here who would be willing to search out and contribute clippings for a newsletter that would detail the hundreds of crimes annually perpetrated by "christians"? I refer to the constant stories of crazed fundie parents stabbing their kids (or other peoples kids) to death because "Jesus told me the child was possessed". Cases where Jehovah Witnesses or others allowed their children to die horribly and painfully, when surgery or a blood transfusion would have saved them? Cases where wives were beaten or killed by fundie husbands for disobeying biblical injunctions regarding the husband being master of the household? We could put out a quarterly newsletter, distributed to all major law-enforecment groups, that would totally dwarf any of the "occult crimes" newsletters, both in sheer number of cases and in horrific details. I am not being facetious here. I am serious! At the very least, such an effort, widely distributed, would put these "occult crimes" porno newsletters in their proper context. CULT: A belief other people force on your kids. RELIGION: A belief YOU force on your kids. All responses welcomed. 93 93/93 Pat --- * Origin: TouchStone HST: We're ALL a LITTLE Cracked.. (Opus 1:136/213) Msg#: 1922 *MAGICKNET* 07/07/88 15:59:03 (Read 3 Times) From: JOE TOTARO To: BRAD HICKS Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1829 (RE: ONE MORE TIME) Rowan, due to long distance I have captured your excellent message and will formulate a reply to do it justice. We are really talking about the same things, are we not? I don't think anyone is saying that Satanists are a nationwide conspiracy. They are a phenomenon, loosely bound togethe by shared guilt & depravity. Sure they're sick. They're sick to be interested in BEING satanist, let alone DOING what they{eventually do. We have much common ground and while I may not share your ideas/faith/pract ices, I see plenty of reaso{ there. I am interested in your perspective on this, philosophically and/or anecdotally{ That's all. Plus the more you could do to distinguish yourself/selves from the looney-tune gunrunning/drug-dealing/hitmen/pornographers and the different gangsters who pull their strings, the better for you, eh? That's what I think anyway. GT --- TBBS v2.0 * Origin: Cult Monitor LA (818)985-2701 (102/744) Msg#: 1935 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 19:41:00 (Read 3 Times) From: ALFGAR MAHARG To: BRAD HICKS Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1922 (RE: ONE MORE TIME) Specifically with regard to Terry's allegations: much (all right, MOST) of what he says in That Book is wildly garbled or inaccurate. (My favorite howler is the description of the Process cross as "a form of inverted swastika", when what he means is precisely an UNinverted swastika.) But I do not think he could have simply invented the references to the "4P" outfit Joe also mentioned and "a violent offshoot of Scientology" which point to a Processean splinter group. (This does leave the possibility that he was duped by someone else's invention.) In SATAN'S POWER, Bainbridge mentions problems with "LSM" (Lower Satanic Manifestation) elements; and recounts a report that after the palace coup which replaced the Process with the Foundation, Christ and Satan were formally expelled from the New York chapter. Perhaps it was really some of the worst-case LSMs and LCMs who were expelled; and I am prepared to believe that some of the former have been implicated in nasty goings-on. --- * Origin: OPUS DEII = BaphoNet-by-the-Sea (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/293) Msg#: 1951 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 19:18:00 (Read 3 Times) From: FARRELL MCGOVERN To: ROWAN MOONSTONE Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1940 (RE: ONE MORE TIME) RM>Arthur Lyons book"Satan Wants You". It's a real good example RM>of why this urban legend is growing. It's become a multi million RM>dollar business and don't you think it hasn't. Pat Pulling of RM>BADD gets a cool $300-$600 a head for her "occult crime " seimnars. RM>That book the guy is offering is $35, or for $110 you can get RM>address labels printed for sending out your own propaganda to RM>these groups. LWalter Martin is marketing a set of videotapes RM>for over $1800 on "cults" complete with no less than 3 tapes RM>on "the occult". I bet it is good business! The local Craft store does a thriving business in large Black Candles...But there is a great deal of possiblity that Pagans, Wiccans, as well as Ritual Magickians getting swept into the fray...on the wrong side. I think one of the main aims of the more public of us should be in dis-associating ourselves from the Satanists. Not that this doesn't automatically happen, becuase usually the first question I am asked in regards to paganism/wicca, and I am sure it happens to you, is something along the lines of "You mean you practice something like Satanism?" Ick! I just want to make sure that it doesn't turn into a "Witch hunt", but substituting "Satanist" for "Witch". From what little I have read about it, it seems that most of the criminal Satanists, would probably be involved with crime anyways, and have found a "religion" that believes in things simular to their criminal tendancies. And the cheapest way to feel like a better person is to have Followers.... ttyl Farrell --- * Origin: Solsbury Hill:Home of ’ristic Computer Consultants (Opus Msg#: 1837 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 13:11:00 (Read 2 Times) From: FARRELL MCGOVERN To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd) Subj: SATANISM, AND OTHER ICKY NASTIES JT>... its no accident that the police publication you mention picked JT>up on the Satanism thread. You gave the mag's address as So. JT>Orange, NJ, and there is an active & violent Satanist group that JT>meets in South Mountain Reservation in South Orange, NJ on a JT>regular basis. I know of no murdered children(found ones) but JT>all the other crimes fit. JT>... JT>It's all real. This past Friday (July 1st...Canada Day!) Geroldo (SP?) had "Satanism" as the topic. The focus in the first part of the show was the threat to childen from the Satanists. They also had a lady who claimed to be a Satanist, who admitted, on air, that she had participated in the ritual sacrifice of a baby, and how they use child molestation as a mind control technique for recruiting said children in their teens. As I was relating this to a local priestess here, she said that the time will eventually come when the Craft will have to join forces with the "orthodox" (I believe she used this to mean 'recongnized") religions in fighting the "Satanism" threat. Later in the show the had a policeman on, Johnathen somethingorother (please don't quote me on the name...I am terrible with names, but great on faces!) was saying that he has been investingating "Occult" related crimes, and that the Satanists have a highly organized infrastructure, and is connected with "Black Witchcraft", and then hurredly said that these "Black Witches" have nothing to do with the people who practice Witchcraft legally. I agree with the priestess, we are going to have to help with the Satanism problem. Up here in Canada things seem a lot less prevalent with the Satanic Cults, or they are simply not very active here. Sure, the local Craft store gets a lot of the "Black Candle" crowd, but there seems to be little recognition between them when two or more are in the store. So they are not very organized, or they have a highly efficient "cell" system... I hope that most of the interface between groups like CoG and such, since this should weed out most of the "I don't like Fredricka's group, so I am going to call the police and say they are Satanists" type of backstabbing. This would only hurt the Craft, and paganism as a whole. ttyl Farrell --- * Origin: Solsbury Hill:Home of ’ristic Computer Consultants (Opus <*>Replies Msg#: 1995 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 11:41:00 (Read 2 Times) From: DAVID RICE To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd) Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 1968 (RE: HERE WE GO AGAIN. PT. 2) But. . . But. . . . The whole point of R. Moonstones post was to point out that the ignorant police magazine article lumpped Satanists to witchcraft and the "occult." That is the concern under consideration. --- * Origin: Astro-Net 714 662-2294 The Lesbian Dorm (Opus 1:103/503) Msg#: 1997 *MAGICKNET* 07/00/88 12:20:00 (Read 2 Times) From: DAVID RICE To: JOE TOTARO (Rcvd) Subj: HERE WE REALLY GO AGAIN! What the hell?!?!? What does bikers and homosexuality have to to with satanism!?!? Good-fucking-grief!! (sorry folks.) Where have you been for the past 30 years? Bikers are for the most part very decient, law abiding citizens of our community. I rode a bike for three years and know that bikers get a lot of shit thrown their way for little or no logical reason other than ignorance. The Orange County Assistant D.A. rides a Harley to work. Homosexuality is a preference, not some mental abberation that causes lawlessness. If there is one thing I cannot abide is oneone even more ignoarant and intollerant than myself! --- * Origin: Astro-Net 714 662-2294 The Lesbian Dorm (Opus 1:103/503)

---

E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank