Subject: CNN tape shows tank starting fire Date: 23 Apr 1993 11:24:26 GMT A friend recorde

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From: michaelh@public.btr.com (Michael Hahn michaelh@btr.com) Subject: CNN tape shows tank starting fire Date: 23 Apr 1993 11:24:26 GMT A friend recorded CNN news during the gassing and incineration of the BD's. I went through it carefully today, and found something very interesting. A tank is pulling out of the house, and there is a fireball, maybe 24" across that lasts for about 1 second. Exactly ten minutes and thirty nine seconds later, the smoke starts billowing out of that area of the building. Now, I'm no govt. spokestwinkie, so it might really have been a weather balloon or something. Perhaps someone would check it out and comment. From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee) Subject: Re: Waco aflame Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 15:16:41 GMT David Thomas (david@tms390.micro.ti.com) wrote: : In article cmp0118@sys.uea.ac.uk (S. Green) writes: : >What I CANNOT understand is WHY THE HELL WERE THERE NO FIREFIGHTERS ON THE SCENE!!! : >This simple omission seems to me to be pretty incompetent. : Plenty of things were done wrong, but this is not one of them. : This is rural Texas, not inside (or even very close to) the town of Waco. : Even if a fire truck had been on the scene from the start, what could they : have done? There are no fire hydrants out there, and no place nearby to : draw water. Faced with a plywood structure, and a fire fanned by 35 mph : winds, they would not have been able to do anything but watch it all go up. : Add to that the not-inconsiderable risk of gunfire, and I can see why : stationing firefighters out there would have been pointless. : -- : David Thomas Texas Instruments (david@wotangate.sc.ti.com) (713)-274-2347 Fire trucks were kept on the site for 49 days. They left; then the Feds started their big assault. From: paulk@cs.mun.ca (Paul E. King) Subject: Re: PROGRAM: WACO.C Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 22:58:26 GMT dsteinbe@nmsu.edu (David Steinberg) writes: >In article melchar@shakala.com (Barbara Haddad) writes: >> Hey -- what do you expect? The authorities had to slaughter the >>children to 'save' them...... >Did anyone else get really annoyed at Ms. Reno for stating that the >reason they had to attack was because of the poor sanitary conditions >that the kids were in? I mean, who caused those conditions anyway? >(Hint: It wasn't Mr. Koresh who cut off electricity and water to their >residence... You know, about four weeks ago there was someone who posted a letter from a writer to the Washington Post who likened the Waco satandoff to the Warsaw Uprising (Funny coincidence that the burining down of the compound happened on the anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising), sayng that there were several resemblances. Well, after rounding up the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, conditions became extremely unsanitary as a natural outcome of the overcrowding. That led the German propagandists to say that the Jews were being rounded up, because, among their other "inferior" qualities, they were also unclean. And Nazi propaganda won over common sense in German public opinion, as well. Of course, the unclean conditions were the result of what the Nazis did to the Jews, but who ever listens to common sense when the people in power have a propaganda machine that speaks even louder than the most obvious action? I think Ms Reno's statements about Waco should be seen in the same light. -- Paul King |Dislaimer: All opinions are my own. Standard paulk@arlene.cs.mun.ca| diclaimer applies. Memorial University +--------------------------------------------------------- Food Science | "I Stand behind all of my misstatements." - Dan Quayle From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) Subject: Re: WACO: Clinton press conference, part 1 Date: 22 Apr 1993 10:10:39 GMT In a previous article, ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen) says: >Here is a press release from the White House. > > President Clinton's Remarks On Waco With Q/A > To: National Desk > Contact: White House Office of the Press Secretary, 202-456-2100 > > WASHINGTON, April 20 -- Following are remarks by President >Clinton in a question and answer session with the press: > >1:36 P.M. EDT > [much drivel and goo deleted] This may be the most chilling line in the entire press conference: I hope very much that others who will be >tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like David >Koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over >the last seven weeks. > In other words, make sure the gov't approves of your religion before you try to practice it, or they may burn you too. -- ****************************************************************************** The opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very carefully thought out. It is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the University of Iowa or Case Western Reserve University. From: brians@atlastele.com (Brian Sheets) Subject: More Waco infomation (from Gill Gross talk show) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 08:54:47 GMT I was listening to the Gill Gross talk show on the radio and he had one of the survivors that was lodged in the County jail there. His story is that there was NO suicide and that the davidians where using kerosene lamps and that when the tanks started busting holes in the building the lamps where either knocked over or were started on fire somehow. I don't know how much credibility this person has but after watching the video several times this seems to me very possible. -- Brian Sheets _ /| "TRUCK?! What truck?" Support Engineer \`o_O' Atlas Telecom Inc. ( ) -Raiders of the Lost Ark brians@atlastele.com U From: rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson) Subject: Re: A Message for you Mr. President: How do you know what happened? Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 22:55:26 GMT While obviously Koresh was a nut case, the (typical) inability of the government/media to get its story straight is quite disturbing. On tuesday night, NBC news reported that the FBI did not know the place was burning down until they saw black smoke billowing from the building. The next day, FBI agents were insisting that they saw Davidians setting the fire. The FBI was also adamantly denying that it was possible their battery of the compound's wallks could have accidentally set the blaze, while also saying they hadnt been able to do much investigating of the site because it was still too hot. So how did they KNOW they didnt accidentally set the fire. Sounds like the FBI just burned the place to the ground to destroy evidence to me. From: Andrew Lewis Tepper Subject: Re: Waco *is* Gov't fault (Was Re: Libertarian Party on CIA/FBI/ATF) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 22:54:13 -0400 Possibly #11: (Can anyone confirm this? I heard that CNN reported the following, but I didn't hear it myself): The day before the fire the FBI called the local hospitals and asked how many burn beds they had. Andy From: mece3d@jane.uh.edu (Chris Struble) Subject: Re: Waco *is* Gov't fault (Was Re: Libertarian Party on CIA/FBI/ATF) Date: 23 Apr 1993 15:49 CDT In article , hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes... > >In article <1993Apr21.104744.1@happy.uccs.edu>, etbeteille@happy.uccs.edu writes: > >|>Here are *several* shreds of evidence that prove the Waco disaster >|>is the government's fault: >|> >|>1) They raided an American's property because of *rumors* about >|> Koresh's intentions with some converted, yet still 2nd-amendment >|> protected, firearms (a judge-approved warrant justifies nothing) > >In a democracy under the rule of law a search warrant justifies a >search. > >The US constitution does not justify murder of those attempting to >mount a search for illegally held weapons. A search for illegally held weapons (IF there were any, no evidence yet produced to this effect) does not justify firing into a house with women and children, either. It also does not justify shooting first without identifying oneself (the ATF and FBI have done this before, so don't say they haven't, please) or producing a warrant. Guess it depends on whose story one believes, huh? > >|>2) It took them *51 days* to think of a basic terrorist tactic, i.e. >|> tear gas (and this could only be justified in support of rescuing >|> any supposed `hostages' inside) > >The Govt has a right to use lethal force in certain cases. Attempts to >capture dangerous criminals who are armed and threatening the lives of others Which "others" are we talking about here? >is one. In this case they used sub lethal force. "Sub lethal"? Excuse me, but those people are dead!!! >|>3) The gov't immediately imprisoned these so-called `hostages' > >The children were held hostage. Evidence? So far the FBI has produced none. Don't hold your breath. >The adults were wanted variously for murder and conspiracy to murder. Only a few of those being held in chains and s(hackles are wanted . The rest are being held for the crime of being "material witnesses". >|>4) It took hundreds of gov't agents with tax-funded cellular phones >|> *ten minutes* to dial 9-1-1 for the fire department > >They should not have called the fire dept at all. There was no role >for them to play in a situation where those that might be rescued might >well shoot at them. It was not the Feds decision to make, but the firefighters. >Calling the fire dept meant that WACO was deprived >of a resource that might have been needed elsewhere should a situation >where it could have been used arisen. This is true of ANY answer to a call for help from a fire department by ANY citizen. Since fire departments do answer calls that "deprive resources that might be needed elsewhere" it is not a valid reason for not calling them. Further, since the Davidians had not been found guilty of any crime in a court of law, they are subject to the same protection as any other citizen. And las far as I know, even criminals in prison are not left to burn to death in a fire. >|>5) By cutting off the water supply in the surrounding area, the gov't >|> guaranteed that any fire at the compound would be fatal > >Any fire started deliberately uising lamp oil is likely to be fatal. I guess this is a matter of religious faith with you? The government says it, so it must be so? Or haven't you been reading this thread well enough to notice that some of us here don't beleive their story? >|>6) No one had the foresight to station rescue vehicles nearby in the >|> first place > >They are a scarce resource. A bunch of psychos cannot deprive the neighbourhood >of a resource that might be required in a genuine case. Patients in psychiatric hospitals are not left to die in fires, either. Besides, as I explained, some of us here believe their distress might have been genuine. Are you SO certain it wasn't? >|>7) The gov't conveniently forgot all that `freedom of religion' stuff > >Freedom of religion does not include human sacrifice. Nor does it >include other forms of murder. There is no evidence that the Davidians committed human sacrifice either before of after the initial raid. And self-defense is not murder. >|>8) The gov't arguably started (or at least fanned) the fire themselves > >The govt arguably is run by communists or the trilateral commission. He did not say it was deliberate. Accidents do not require conspiracy theories, only wanton disregard for human life. The initial raid alone (agents firing blind into walls against all standards of law enforce- ment procedure) proves they did not mind killing people. >|>10) Finally, and this may be a stretch for some of you statists out there, >|> but Koresh's original reasons for holing up in such a compound may >|> have *something* to do with the continual interference from the gov't >|> -- new taxes, new regulations and increasing involvement in every >|> aspect of our personal and economic lives -- Life on a compound might >|> become the way of the future ... it might have to be > >Let us hope that those who support Koresh are not allowed to enforce this upon >the rest of us. No one here is "supporting Koresh". We are opposing the illegal use of excessive violence by our government against our citizens. That is all. >Their reasons for supporting the ownership of high power >weaponry are clear enough they hope that this will be the catylist for >the destruction of the fabric of society and allow them to enforce their >nightmare vision of the future. A society that believes it is OK to terrorize people for their religious views will destroy itself in due time. It is the feds who disrupted the "fabric of society" in Waco, not Koresh. It is the feds who forced a nightmare onto the people of Mount Carmel. >It would be a good thing for people to study history. On what basis do you assume we haven't? Don't you really mean "It would be a good thing if people drew the same conclusions from history that I do?" :-) >In particular a group of militant... "Militant" implies acts of aggression against one's neighbors. The Davidians left their neighbors alone. .religious heretics who left to set up such a community >some time ago. A few years latter they had captured Medina and destroyed >the idols in the Kabba. Within ten years the whole of Arabia was under >Islam. So what? The Mormons were considered a "cult" for years, and were chased out of one place after another on much the same thinking as you are advocating. When they finally got to "set up a community" they left people alone. So far Americans haven't been put to the sword by Mormon hordes crying to avenge Joseph Smith. :-) >Just because a group of people start by saying that all they want is to be >left alone does not mean that that is how they will stay. It doesn't mean they won't either. Anyway, the whole purpose of a system of laws is to punish people for what they DO, not what they MIGHT do. >The Pat Robertsons, >Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggarts of this world are quite telling other >people how to run their lives. "Telling" is not the same as "forcing". When the police knock at my door, I cannot make them go away by changing the channeI. As for Pat and friends, I don't even WATCH their channel, since I am an atheist. So far, not watching them tell me what to do hasn't gotten me killed :-) > If you allow such people to get guns and >point them in your face you are likely to find that they are running your >life. Right now, the only people sticking guns in anyone's faces is the government. And they are trying very hard to run my life. Or haven't you noticed? >Phill Hallam-Baker ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Christian Struble | College Libertarians of Texas - UH Chapter | | MECE3D@JETSON.UH.EDU | Box 113, 4800 Calhoun, Houston, TX 77004 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | The true civilization is where every man gives to every other | | every right that he claims for himself -- Robert Ingersoll | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: healta@saturn.wwc.edu (Tammy R Healy) Subject: Re: Branch Davidians info Date: 22 Apr 93 04:56:51 GMT In article clitton@opie.bgsu.edu writes: >From: clitton@opie.bgsu.edu >Subject: Branch Davidians info >Date: 18 Mar 93 07:31:55 GMT >I am looking for any information on the Branch Davidians. Send info to Chad >Litton, ACS Dept. BGSU, Bowling Green OH 43403. Or e-mail to >clitton@andy.bgsu.edu Thanks in advance. I don't claim to be an expert on the branch Davidians, but I might know more than most. The Branch Davidian group (led by Koresh) is actually one of two off-shoots of a group known as the Shephard's Rod. The Shephard's Rod (now defunct as far as I know)broke off from the SDA Church in the 30's. The Shephard's Rod broke away from the SDA Church because they felt that the SDA Church was becoming weak and falling into apostacy. They felt that they were the remnant spoken about in Revelation. Koresh himself came from an SDA background. He was excommunicated as a young adult by the local congregation for trying to exert too much control over the youth in the church. After this, he joined the Branch Davidians. They were/are a survivalist cult. This is why they had the stockpile of weapons, food, a bomb shelter, etc. They had no intent of raiding the US government or anything. They were preparing for Armaggedon and were putting themselves in a self defense position. In my opinion, if the ATF and the FBI had left well enough alone, we wouldn' t have the blood of 20+ children crying out from the ashes in Waco. If you want to know about The Shephard's Rod, you might want to visit the local SDA church and talk to some of the older people. They could give you some insight into where Koresh got his theology. Tammy From: covici@ccs.covici.com (John Covici) Subject: Re: Cult Awareness Network - CAN Date: 26 Apr 93 1:43:49 GMT f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu ( @ Stephen F. Austin State University) once wrote.... > > An organization called the Cult Awareness Network, or CAN, >gained some public notoreity during the tragic days of the siege >against the Mt. Carmel facility. Apparently it was much involved >in the BATF's original interest in the Davidians. Additionally it >is said that CAN's "experts" provided information to the FBI. > > I find it disturbing that our tax dollars are spent to pay >[law enforcement agency] consulting fees to such an organization. >Apparently CAN experts decide some group makes their "awareness" >list and concurrently it makes the government's black list. I just >don't like the idea of our government having any involvement with >such an organization. Who are they to decide what does or does >not constitute a legitimate belief structure? If private citizens >want to spend their money on such folly, fine. But tax dollars? >No way. > > I would like more information on this public menace. Perhaps >someone out there could post some detailed information on CAN. From: michaelh@public.btr.com (Michael Hahn michaelh@btr.com) Subject: Re: Waco aflame Date: 27 Apr 1993 03:35:09 GMT >According to the FBI, and McLennan county officials, there is. >The FBI can back up its allegation that Koresh started >the fire with videotape (they had the entire compound under >video surveillance) and audio (the bugs in the compound). >According to the FBI, the listening devices picked up >someone giving instructions on setting the fire shortly >before it happened. >Of course, I'm waiting to hear/see the tapes before I make up my >mind. Mitchell, I suggest you get hold of a recording of CNN coverage of the event. During Sally Live, you'll see the first tiny wisp of smoke coming from a second story window. Back the tape up 10 min., 39 sec. You will observe a tank pulling out of that exact same area of the house, and most interesting, you'll see a little (~24") fireball that lasts about a second. Then, going forward a few minutes from the first puff of smoke, you'll see in the corner structure ajacent to 'first smoke' you'll see what looks very much what looks like a propane tank blowing it's safety plug (intense, obviously pressure propelled flames shooting several feet out of the window, and into a ~35 mph wind). Michael From: garrod@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (David Garrod) Subject: Re: Waco aflame Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 15:01:32 GMT In article <2460@frackit.UUCP> dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe) writes: >In article <1quvml$5co@nwfocus.wa.com>, turmoil@halcyon.com (Tim Crowley) writes: >- stevem@solbourne.com (Stephen Matson) writes: >- > The feds started their assault on the cult compound this morning. >- > Apparently either the actual assault or the cultist started a fire. >- > This fire has burnt the entire compound and at least half the folks >- > inside are not accounted for, including the innocent kids. >- >- Yep looks like the Federal PIGS murdered all but 8 of these people in >- Waco. What a fucking shame... > >Yup. The FEDS forced them to refuse to come out all that time. FORCED >Koresh to break promise after promise and stall for time. FORCED them to >violate federal firearms laws. FORCED them to set fire to the compound >(fire source 2 widely separated points according the the Fire Marshalls) >and immolate themselves. FORCED them to shoot some of their own people >in the head. FORCED them to kill the children. > And there are none so blind, as those that close their eyes. None so deaf, as those who refuse to hear. None so dumb, as those that never ask questions. A few days before the attack, the FBI said on TV they were prepared to wait indefinitely. (I think, "as long as it takes" was the phrase.) But that couldn`t have been a promise; the FBI wouldn`t break a promise. At the beginning of the siege there was mention of a meth lab on the premises. But this was later retracted; of course, this was simply a mistake by the FBI, they wouldn`t have been trying to build up public opinion against the Davidians. The FBI also repeatedly talked about illegal weapons. But the search warrant was sealed and no proof was offered about whether this statement was actually true or not. Of course, the FBI would not lie, so we have to assume the Davidians had illegal weapons and evidence of this was used in obtaining the search warrant. Of course, we have to assume the bugs the FBI planted on the premises were legally planted and a search warrant was issued for their use, even if it might have disappeared. From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) Subject: Re: WACO - a police state success story Date: 1 May 93 16:28:52 GMT Carl Aron (carlaron@access.digex.net) wrote: : I think the government made some serious mistakes, not arrsting Koresh : _away from the compound, etc. that could have prevented Koresh from taking : all those other with him, but ultimately I can't see anyone but Koresh : being blamed for this. The government could have done a much better job : anticipating the actions of this lunatic, but having failed to prevent his : murder of his followers is not a crime on the same order as his actually : doing it. Hopefully not taking a position pro or con in this, I had a thought while I read this, and thought that I'd mention it. Consider it as simply playing Devil's Advocate for discussion purposes. I do strike a pose, but believe I could do the same for both sides. In the last couple of years, the "high speed pursuit" by police has fallen into great disfavor --the idea is that the policy exposes the public to unnecessary danger. This comes from a number fo suits filed (as I understand it) by victims who were hurt by police through accidental injury during the chase. The police were found culpable for the damages as having presented a forseeable and preventable danger. Last year, police surrounded a home where a pair of men took refuge after they murdered a couple and injured a police officer in a shoot out. The LOCAL SWAT team opened fire on the house, and in the pro- cess killed a woman in a neighboring house. The armor piercing rounds they used went through the walls of her home and hit her in the kitchen (where she and her family were waiting out the debacle.) Again, the police were found culpable --along with having to assume responsibility for general neighborhood damages resulting from the shootout that they were found to have provoked. Applying this to the Branch Davidians is a pretty good fit. As you pointed out, the police (BATF/FBI/ETC) made some gross errors. Is it possible that two of them may have been: - the initial approach to the compound in February, and - the final assault with armored vehicles. That the Feds have only retained some of those who did leave the compund as material witnesses _appears_ to indicate that not all of the people in the compund were objects of the warrant, and thus were essentially "innocent bystanders." If that was true, then this seems to closely parallel the circumstances I described above where police used unsafe and (for the circumstances) unreasonable methodologies. This would make them responsible, wouldn't it? Whether or not the Davidians were lunatics, practiced a religion peculiar to some, or exercised bad judgement in believing in Koresh is irrelevant. Religion is a complex thing, and no matter if one is a Davidian, Muslim, Catholic, Jew, Protestant or whatever, there will always be some who view their practices as peculiar and perhaps even 'crazy.' People have been, and continue to kill each other over religious differences all over the world. Is that sane? So, I question your statement that (paraphrased) the police may have precipitated the confrontation and eventual destruction of the com- pound, but weren't at fault. The issue cannot be resolved into the placing of blame on one side or the other, nor even which side was *more* at fault. One side can't defend itself, and the other side isn't forthcoming with all of the pertinent facts. The BD members cannot assume their portion of the responsibility -they're dead. Perhaps that could be viewed as paying their part of the price. But the government is alive and well, and is absolving itself of any responsibility --and is cheered to do so by a public which isn't looking at the legal aspects of the tragedy. Instead, they look at the picture of lunacy painted for the Davidians, and are content in a _form_ of religious prejudice that justice has been served. -- bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us_____________________________________________________ Bob Kirkpatrick - Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Subject: Re: Waco aflame Date: 1 May 93 23:01:58 CST In article , garrod@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (David Garrod) writes: [...deleted...] > > And there are none so blind, as those that close their eyes. > None so deaf, as those who refuse to hear. > None so dumb, as those that never ask questions. > > A few days before the attack, the FBI said on TV they were prepared > to wait indefinitely. (I think, "as long as it takes" was the phrase.) > But that couldn`t have been a promise; the FBI wouldn`t break a promise. > > At the beginning of the siege there was mention of a meth > lab on the premises. But this was later retracted; of course, this > was simply a mistake by the FBI, they wouldn`t have been trying to > build up public opinion against the Davidians. > Maybe something more sinister. They could not legally get use of the helicopters and personal carriers from the Texas National Guard unless they hollered "drugs". The governor of Texas later said they had lied but she never asked for the equipment to be returned. [...deleted...] -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Joe Gaut | In the super-state, it really does not | matter at all what actually happened. Remember the Alamo | Truth is what the government chooses to Remember Waco | tell you. Justice is what it wants to happen. --Jim Garrison, New Orleans, La. From: bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) Subject: Is it over? Date: 3 May 93 15:24:33 GMT The turmoil of Waco Texas is now winding down. Officials have announced that remains found in the Branch Davidian compound include David Koresh. The debacle has created great controversy, and well it should. Happenings of this sort carve pages into the history books and become milestones for other events. (Yeah, I remember THAT, it happened two weeks after that Waco thing.) This is the second time in recent memory that the government marshalled great force against a small number, and in view of alternatives to the methodology, we might ask ourselves why it's happening. At Ruby Creek in the Northern Idaho hills, the same kind of military action was mounted to rout out Randy Weaver. A white separatist who lived in seclusion with his family. He was in his home with his wife, two children, and friend Kevin Harris when the government sent in a 'team' to arrest him. That team turned out to be 250 men from federal law enforcement agencies, a compliment of national guard, and logistical support whose numbers range from 150 to 250 persons. At the height of the raid on the mountain cabin, nearly a thousand people were col- lected in Bonner County to arrest three adults and two kids. At the conclusion, one agent, Weaver's wife and son were dead from gunshot wounds. Weaver and Harris are now on trial in Boise, Idaho. The reasons listed for the raid are given as: 1) Weaver was wanted on weapons charges 2) Reason existed that he had a large cache of illegal weapons 3) Allegations had been made regarding the abuse of the Weaver children. In Waco, Texas, everyone's recent memory knows as much of the story as can be pieced together from comments by involved parties and the media. Suffice to say, there are a collection of differing versions, and the differences are spectacular. Regardless of the right or wrongness of the objects of the raids on Weaver and Koresh, two things shine through clearly. Overwhelming force was used when it's agreed that in all fair likelihood each could have been easily taken away from their homes, and each held an ideology of separatism. Neither David Koresh nor Randy Weaver presented an immediate violent threat to society. The government makes no claim to this in either case, nor does any spokesperson deny it when queried. I don't attempt to defend either the government nor Weaver and Koresh. My point is to question the need for such exaggerated force. Military forays against better protected, better armed, trained combat forces are routinely executed with significantly fewer people and machineries. Bear in mind that in both of the circumstances these assaults were carried out in reasonably remote areas (away from 'innocent bystanders') in a country at peace. After two failures, should these tactics be considered lacking? The apparent idea is to use such overwhelming force as to sap the will of the target --except that it's discovered that such an approach seems only to strengthen their will. How different would it have been if one of the agents in the Weaver case had visited the cabin atop Ruby Ridge and said "Randy, you need to come with me this time." The relationship certainly existed to do this. Would Koresh have reacted differently if one or two agents stopped by, asked him to come along, and then later returned with in a more relaxed environment to inspect the compound? In both cases there was, according to current legal view, the necessary probable cause to take action. But was it necessary to take that action with such vehemence and vindiction? Both cases manifest a governmental position that the "response was predictable." If that is indeed the case, then why was the approach used anyway? This appears to indicate that the agents had good reason to expect a standoff. What posesses the planners of such activity? While I've enter- tained a number of suppositions, the only one which seems to work for me --and it's just personal opinion-- is that the US government feels compelled to demonstrate it's awesome power. Such a thing is typical profiling in the world arena, certainly. But why would it need to perform such a demonstration to it's own citizens who, presumably, stand behind it? At a time when the still expanding government is reaching ever further into the personal lives of it's citizens, I believe it's worth thinking about. -- bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us_____________________________________________________ Bob Kirkpatrick - Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA From: hargitai@acf4.nyu.edu (hargitai) Subject: Re: The Government Is LYING Date: 24 Apr 1993 13:07:46 GMT cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes: >Yesterday, the FBI was saying that at least three of the bodies had >gunshot wounds, indicating that they were shot trying to escape the >fire. Today's paper quotes the medical examiner as saying that there >is no evidence of gunshot wounds in any of the recovered bodies. >At the beginning of this siege, it was reported that while Koresh >had a class III (machine gun) license, today's paper quotes the >government as saying, no, they didn't have a license. >Today's paper reports that a number of the bodies were found with >shoulder weapons next to them, as if they had been using them while >dying -- which doesn't sound like the sort of action I would expect >from a suicide. >Our government lies, as it tries to cover over its incompetence >and negligence. Why should I believe the FBI's claims about >anything else, when we can see that they are LYING? >This system of government is beyond reform. >-- >Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer My opinions, all mine! >Relations between people to be by mutual consent, or not at all. Add to that the Clinton's verdict, (according to his book,): guilty of child abuse, illegal gun-use and poss, etc. May I ask our president, which trial what jury found them guilty? Painting these people the colors of evil will never justify the distruction of the weakest link of our democracy. And that is what happened. And it is a shame, even if 70% ?? of our people agrees with the president. jh From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) Subject: Re: "I couldn't care less" Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 05:42:00 GMT On 28 Apr 93 22:26:14 GMT, Dave Ratcliffe (dave@frackit.UUCP) wrote: > In article <1993Apr22.212804.12888@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, > kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT) writes: > - No, you're the one who needs to get a life. When I was talking > - about Koresh's rights being abused by the government I was > - referring to some "minor" infractions such as these: > - 1) The Cigarette Cops violated due process of law by engaging > - in a no-knock raid on Koresh's house. > No knock raid? I've heard several versions of the initial warrant > service attempt, soome from BD's or their lawyers. ALL say there was a > knock, it was answered then all hell broke loose. According to the Associated Press, they "knocked" with concussion grenades. From my collection: Excerpts from an article in the Knoxville News-Sentinel Final Edition Monday, March 1, 1993 (the byline is associated press): "WACO, Texas - Fierce gun battles erupted Sunday as more than 100 law officers tried to arrest the leader of a heavily armed religious cult. At least four federal agents and two cult members were reported killed. [...]" "The gun battles began when federal agents hidden in livestock trailers stormed the sect's head-quarters Sunday morning, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ witnesses said. The agents had warrants to search for guns and explosives and to arrest Howell, said Les Stanford of the ATF in Washington." [...] "Witnesses said the law officers stormed the compound's main home, throwing concussion grenades and screaming "Come out," while three ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ National Guard helicopters approached. For a moment, there was no response. Then the shooting began." Storming one's home, and throwing concussion grenades doesn't sound like a proper way to serve a warrant. > - 3) The warrant that they had didn't give authorization for > - the Cigarette cops to do a no-knock raid. > See response to item 1 See the A.P. report. > - 4) A no-knock raid shouldn't have been doney anyways. They > - should've served the warrant in the usual fashion. > See response to item 1 See the A.P. report. > - 6) People leaving the compound weren't charged with anything; > - they were being held as "material witnesses". The > - Constitution clearly states that you cannot hold someone > - against there will if they haven't been charged with a crime. > Did you see the charge sheets? Do you know definately there were not > other charges pending? Ever hear of "protective custody"? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Against who or what? Doesn't "protective custody" require the permission of the "protectee"? Maybe the police will come and place you under "protective custody" for a couple decades. > - 7) Many other direct violations of the law and the letter of the law. > Enumerate or drop the allegations of "other direct violations". Using "no-knock" on a warrant which does not allow such "taints" the warrant. Once the warrant is invalid, all actions thereafter are "under color of law" (title 18, sec 242); That is, each occurrance is a different offense. Since death (of some BD's) occurred, 18 s. 242 calls for up to life imprisonment. The second gun battle (there were 2 battles that day) was also under color of law. The continued seige was under color of law, as they were deprived of liberty with due process of law (when were new warrants issued?). And the final offense was when Janet Reno _confessed_ on public TV that she sent the FBI in because she feared for the children. She NOW claims that she wasn't going to let murderers get away. Neither child abuse, nor murder are federal crimes, and thus the raid was executed by a group that lacked jurisdiction ("under color of law"). As a result, approximately 80 persons were deprived of life without due process of law. Gee, I haven't even been ingenious. I can base numerous violations only under Title 18, 242. Imagine what I could do if I was familiar with the law! > - I'm sure you'll change your tune when the government abuses *your* > - rights. That's why it's important to defend *everyones's* rights no > - matter how despicable the people in question seem to be. > Break the law, expect to pay for it. Which laws were broken? Please enumerate. (note that in a press conference, Bill Clinton was asked "which laws", but sidestepped the question). > It is entirely possible that there will be some kind of court action > with regard to the Waco mess. In my opinion the "villains" had their > chance to go through the legal system and chose to resist arrest > instead. Texas allows one to shoot hostile invaders. Just out of curiosity, when did ATF become police (didn't the BATF claim that their agents were wearing jackets that said "POLICE")? I always thought they were Treasury agents. Isn't impersonation of an officer a crime? Doesn't misrepresenting oneself fall "under color of law"? What's next, will IRS agents attack homes with "POLICE" on their coats? Perhaps Poultry inpectors should do that also!... -- Charles Scripter * cescript@phy.mtu.edu Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech, Houghton, MI 49931 ------------------------------------------------------------- "... The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ..." Thomas Jefferson, Nov. 13, 1787 From: mlight@cup.hp.com (Mike Light) Subject: Re: "I couldn't care less" Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 01:07:54 GMT : I'm tired of hearing this stuff. As someone else posted _ALL_ initial : reports identified the raid as "no knock." Sure, BATF has changes it's : story since, saying they knocked, which is thier current story. According to judiciary testimonies so far, the only statement has been that "an agent went towards the open door to serve the search warrant". When Higgins was asked about specific contents of the warrant, he repeatedly responded that he could not talk about that since it is evidence in an up-coming trial against the BD's. I do not know where any of the media has received their information regarding knock or no-knock, but perhaps the issuing judge has divulged it. In the past, ATF has received no-knock warrants. Higgins, again in testimony, said the BD raid was conducted in the same fashion as in 341 sucessful "actions" in the past 18 months, including "cults and survivalists". He specifically mentioned activities in Idaho, Utah and a group called "Covenant of the Sword - Arm of the Lord". : Another : current story is that they lost the element of surprise. Now let's all get : this straight: they are claiming someone tipped off the BDs, there by : causing them to lose the element of surprise while claiming they went up : and knocked on the door. Higgins claimed that they were expecting to take the BD's by surprise. The BD's were supposed to be having religious services when the ATF arrived, according to undercover agent Robert Rodriguez who had spent some months at the ranch. Again, under questioning from congressmen, Higgins admitted that Rodriguez had informed someone in the ATF a full 40 minutes before the raid commenced that Koresh was aware of the raid. Whoever Rodriguez informed did not pass this on to the troops, however, several of whom have said they were knowingly sent into a "death trap" by superiors. : I have no knowledge of the contents of the post BATF attack warrants, do you? Only smidgeons. Among the charges were "purchasing of explosive paraphenalia" such as cardboard tubes and aluminum powder, and "components necessary for conversion of semi-automatic firearms". The congressman who was reading these things was "encouraged" not to read any more since the warrants are evidence for the coming trial, but he did ask Higgins: Q: "Are any of these things I have read illegal?" A: "No." Q: "Did you have any evidence that the Branch Davidians made explosives?" A: "No." Q: "Did you have any evidence that semi-automatic firearms had been converted to automatic?" A: "No." This is odd, considering how an undercover agent had been on the scene for "several months". -- Mike From: pspod@hooch.lerc.nasa.gov (Steve Podleski) Subject: Re: ABC Confirms Two Points of FBI's Version Date: 5 May 1993 17:31:56 GMT In article jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes: >I think you're right. Today's Atlanta Constipation headlined that "independent >experts" confirmed arson as the cause of the fire. No evidence presented, >of course. Later, inside, in the fine print, it is noted that these >"independent experts" have worked for the BATF in the past, were pushed >on the FBI by BATF and that one of the investigator's wife works >as a BATF secretary. I guess this is the post-structuralist definition >of the word "independent". With the politicians, federal agencies and media on one side of the issue, who do you expect to come with an effective opposing view? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Podleski | phone: 216-433-4000 NASA Lewis Research Center | Cleveland, Ohio 44135 | email: pspod@hooch.lerc.nasa.gov ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) Subject: Re: Warrant in Waco Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 19:56:57 GMT In article <4MAY199316145542@oregon.uoregon.edu> dreitman@oregon.uoregon.edu (Daniel R. Reitman, Attorney to Be) writes: > >I remember that early New York Times reports after the blaze >spoke of ankle-deep piles of ammunition. Simply because it >hasn't yet been swept up and counted doesn't make it nonexistant. >We know, at minimum, that the compound was heavily armed. As for >grenades, what planet did that statement come from? It didn't >happen. Quoted from the Bloomington Herald-Times, Monday March 1, one day after the assault, AP news story. I have the copy sitting in front of me. "Witnesses said the law enforcement officers stormed the main home, throwing concussion grendades and screaming "Come out!" while three National Guard helicopters approached. For a moment, there was no response. Then the shooting began." -- Anmar Mirza # Chief of Tranquility #My Opinions! NotIU's!#CIANSAKGBFBI EMT-D # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#ASSASINATEDEA N9ISY (tech) # Somewhere out on the # Politicians prefer #NAZIPLUTONIUM Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants. #PRESIDENTFEMA From: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: Big lie again 1/2 Date: Tue, 04 May 93 16:25:00 PDT We might as well learn something from the Branch Davidian episode regarding people and the press and the gov. The incident first came to light with the headlines of four BATF people killed serving a search warrant. It took some time before people were noting the warrant was served with a hand grenade thrown through a window. The Government originally predicted a quick ending after a radio broadcast and after they announced he had agreed. He apparently did not agree or did not trust them or whatever, we may never know. About a week passed before it became a topic of interest to the media rather interestingly also in that when the media became bored and were giving it minimum coverage there was the final assault. The media responded with a bare minimum of facts and a lot of imagery to fill in the air time. In a search for material the term cult was used to suggest sinister things and make references to the Jamestown mass suicide. Example. Prime Time Live on 18 March 93 ran the same BATF footage at least three times while talking about subjects that only matched up in the words and not the actions. They ran interviews with ex-members who frankly had very little damaging to say. The government was actually the organization feeding this hysterical misrepresentation of events. Example. The gov sent in their hostage team for the only reason I can see as the nearest equivalent they had. The Gov then refered to people as "being released" rather than "deciding to leave." Since then I have read here allegations the children were begin held hostage and that husbands were holding their wives hostage at gun point. Where did this come from? People took the lead and began talking on their own. Example. Noting there has been no public statement by Koresh since the Wendsday after the start, people here are talking about Koresh based upon the cult leader image not based upon Koresh. The idea of cult conjured was of something evil and sinister ignoring the literally hundreds of "cults" and "cult leaders" that have been named since Jim Jones. We are heard people making claims as to his motivations and those of his followers. We are heard regular insights into the mind of Koresh. Statements are being made where no supporting information exists. There are many others. Example. We read implicitely and explicitely that the BDs were armed with the intention of insurrection and over throw of the government when when no evidence of that ever had any such intention. This made them the object of hate for those who fear revolution. Example. We read the constant implication that the mere posession of guns was a crime. The government from Clinton on down has refused to identify which laws they were suspected of violating. Example. We heard the constant use of the term "assault weapon" which, under any definition used in common parlance in this country are completely legal under Federal Law and under the laws of most states including Texas. This made them an object of hate for those who fear guns. Example. We heard the ridiculously high figure of the Waco operation costing one million dollars a day (which works to about one thousand men per shift. Thus providing a crutch for those who put a price tag on human life. Example. We heard they were manufacturing methamphetamines without the slightest evidence of it, connecting them with all the evils of drugs. This made them an object of hate for those who fear drugs. Example. We heard "concerns" over child abuse of which there was absolutely no evidence but that tear- and knee- jerking allegation has been made over and over from the President on down without the slighest reason to believe it. This made them the object of hate for those who fear child abuse. Example. We heard the Branch Davidians blamed for conditions (lack of food, sanitation) that were caused by the government. This made them the object of hate for those who fear child abuse. Example. We heard the constant allegation of illegal weapons without the slightest evidence of any illegal weapons existing and have been treated to a display of burned, legal weapons by the government. Again inspiring fear among those who fear guns. Example. We heard them blamed for responding to a deadly government attack with deadly force. Example. We heard they shot people wanting to leave when there are no signs of anyone having been shot. Example. They had enough rations to hold out for years; the children were starving. Example and perhaps the most onerous one. The Government accused them of using the children as shields and then excused its final attack with a concern for the condition under which the children were living. The government was in fact using the concerns of the parents for their children having to live under the conditions the government imposed. Cold, callous, cruel use of children and their parents' concern for them. Here we have seven weeks, 51 days, of allegation and innuendo none of which has substantiation and we have the majority of the country agreeing with the government. We had constant new rumors all of which were instigated by the government. Now watching carefully we have the anatomy of the Big Lie and it is not what we sort of imagine it to be. It is not the repetition of the same lie over and over in some clumsy manner. It is varying statements and images around many existing themes. It is not one huge lie but rather constant insinuation and half statements letting people's imagination fill in the missing parts. It is not creating new lies but rather connecting the target with what is already considered evil. Confusion was first sown with conflicting statements, conflicting only over which type of bad it was they were guilty of. Then the imagery of terrorism, messiah, allusions to what others have done started. (It is interesting to hear the Gov reassure everyone over and over this was not a Jim Jones situation with no evidence anyone had ever asked the question.) What has happened is the imagination pump has been primed. In absense of coherent information people are filling in the blanks with what they believe to be parallel matters and attributing them to this incident. There is nothing new about people filling in the blanks when information is missing. It is the classic psych eval of "tell me about the situation in this picture." If you ever need to start a big lie don't ever get the idea you need a mustache and ten thousand cheering listeners to do it. The Koresh incident is a great blue print. Is it any wonder the Jews were easy picking for the Nazis? >>> Continued to next message * !!! >>> * Waco lesson Three. Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air. -- Internet: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Matt.Giwer Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area. From uc.msc.edu!sgiblab!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!cmort Sun May 9 22:40:43 1993 Xref: uc.msc.edu alt.activism:43714 misc.headlines:28901 Newsgroups: alt.activism,misc.headlines Path: uc.msc.edu!sgiblab!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!cmort From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) Subject: Re: Waco aflame Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH Date: Sun, 9 May 1993 18:52:21 GMT Message-ID: Followup-To: alt.activism References: <1993May8.161358.17842@seq.uncwil.edu> Lines: 50 As quoted from <1993May8.161358.17842@seq.uncwil.edu> by session@seq.uncwil.edu (Zack C. Sessions): > mlight@cup.hp.com (Mike Light) writes: > > >It's too bad so many people seem to think that just because they're from > >the government, you have to hold up your hands and surrender. > > When they have a valid warrent, there is little lse you can do, without > getting into a lot more trouble. You can't unlawfully use lethal force, to serve a warrant or do anything else. By their own admission the BATF grenaded the BDs. They may have shot first too. You don't have any legal obligation to let yourself be the subject of unlawful use of force. > >And now that you've contradicted all my points, how would you like me > >to suggest to the DEA that you might be growing pot in your house? > >Maybe they'll decide that it's worth breaking down your door to find out, > >and if you don't come out peacably, well... > > Your implication here is that the BATF were operating on false pretenses > in their raid. I guess you didn't see all of the interviews with the > former members who testified that they personally witnesses various acts > of child abuse and even reported these acts to the authorities as long > as 2.5 years ago. > They were acting under IRRELEVANT pretenses. Could you cite for me the federal statute which gives the BATF jurisdiction over child molestation, much less STATE cases of child molestation? The BATF wouldn't have any jurisdiction even if it happened on a federal installation. It's nothing more than a clumsy attempt to divert attention away from their OWN misdeeds and possible crimes. > There was also ample evidence of the firearm violations or they wouldn't > have gotten the warrent in the first place. > That's a circular argument which doesn't hold up. It's like saying that there was ample evidence that the Jews were a threat, else the Nazis wouldn't have tried to wipe them out. I've seen the warrant affidavit, and it's a joke. All or most of what's listed there is LEGAL. When did they get the power to search for LEGAL items? Did somebody forget the fourth amendment? They sure HOPE you have. -- =================================================================== "You're like a bunch of over-educated, New York jewish ACLU lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in Arkansas" - Holly Silva From uc.msc.edu!sgiblab!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!news.tele.fi!news.funet.fi!fuug!funic!nntp.hut.fi!usenet Sun May 9 23:03:40 1993 Xref: uc.msc.edu alt.conspiracy:27118 talk.politics.misc:44635 alt.politics.usa.misc:2491 Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc Path: uc.msc.edu!sgiblab!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!news.tele.fi!news.funet.fi!fuug!funic!nntp.hut.fi!usenet From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) Subject: Re: The tragedy after waco In-Reply-To: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) Message-ID: <1993May8.224801.4869@nntp.hut.fi> Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-Posting-Host: laphroaig.cs.hut.fi Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland References: <272.2BEAC05A@mechanic.fidonet.org> <1993May8.035921.17517@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 8 May 1993 22:48:01 GMT Lines: 14 In article , cmort@NCoast (Christopher Morton) writes: >As quoted from <1993May8.035921.17517@midway.uchicago.edu> by thf2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank): >> Koresh was never "cleared," the investigators merely said they >> couldn't find enough evidence to bring charges. If Texas social > >Where are you planning to do whatever it is you plan to do? North Korea? >South Africa? Guatemala? In THIS country, the standard is innocent >until proven guilty. "We know that David Koresh was having sex with children. Does anyone dispute that?" The President of the United States of America, in a press conference, April 23, 1993 From uc.msc.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!f_gautjw Tue May 11 14:24:54 1993 Path: uc.msc.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!f_gautjw From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy Subject: Sen. Phil Gramm on Waco Message-ID: <1993May10.172350.4675@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> Date: 10 May 93 17:23:50 CST Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University Lines: 49 On March 6, I wrote Senator Phil Gramm protesting the actions of the BATF in Waco and asking him to help abolish the dangerous and useless agency. Today I received a reply from him dated April 23rd... over two weeks ago and four days after the massacre of the small religious group. Since Gramm was keynote speaker for a major party and is spoken of as a potential candidate for the presidency in 1996, I thought some might be interested in hearing his startling but not surprising attitude about the affair. Notice his fair-mindedness in talking about the "cult" and "compound" and "murder" by the BDs. I find it a frightening thought that he might come to wield even more power in Washington. I hope he is in no way involved in the "investigation". Here's his reply to my letter: April 23, 1993 [heading omitted] Dear Mr. Gaut: Thank you for contacting me concerning the situation involving the Branch Davidian sect near Waco. I appreciate knowing of your interest in the matter. As you know, the FBI made a strategic decision, with White House and Justice Department concurrence, to bring the 51-day stand-off to a close on the morning of April 19 by injecting tear gas into the Davidian compound. At noon, fires were set by sect members which quickly burned the wooden buildings to the ground, resulting in the loss of life of members who remained inside the buildings. The deaths of the federal agents who were murdered by members of the sect and the loss of life at the compound are terrible tragedies. Congress will be investigating the entire affair and conducting hearings in the near future. You may be sure that I will carefully monitor the hearing testimony and will scrutinize the findings that the committees report to Congress. I hope a full, fair inquiry will serve the purpose of ensuring that nothing like this ever happens again. I appreciate having the opportunity to represent you in the United States Senate. Thank you for taking the time to contact me. Yours respectfully, Phil Gramm United States Senator --Joe Gaut From: linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) Subject: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Stupidity Date: 13 May 1993 23:38:36 GMT Today's conspiracy theory: Information has allegedly come out that some ATF agents shot on the initial Waco raid were hit with Cyclone ammo, which only the gov't has access to. The agents shot each other. One reporter who was present at the raid stated that the first shots were fired by the ATF, as one of the agents accidentally shot another. ----------- end conspiracy theory ------- Now that all the fuss has died I'd like to say I'm astonished that people are saying "You can't blame BAT&F". To my mind it was clear from an early point that the BAT&F director in charge of this fiasco had got hopelessly personally involved in the case, and should have been relieved of command at once. To see the guy on tv complaining "David Koresh lied to us" and following it up with "David Koresh is a dangerous psychopath" it should have been evident to all that this guy didn't understand what he was up against, but had a pretty strong idea that the whole deal should end with Koresh coming out in a body bag. He got his objective, but at what cost! Now it appears that some of the agents may have shot each other. This happened a couple of years ago in San Jose. A bum seized a cop's gun and went crazy. Reinforcements were called to the scene; one of these cops managed to shoot and kill another cop accidentally. -- Peter van der Linden linden@Eng.sun.com 415 336-6206 "Last week we had a fella from Digital come out and look at the soybean crop. After 20 minutes, Ma chased him off and threw his keyboard out the window. We're from Norwegian stock, and we know a thing or two about bus controllers." From: tomd@risc.sps.mot.com (Tom Davidson) Subject: Re: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Stupidity Date: 14 May 1993 10:10:55 -0500 linden@positive.Eng.Sun.COM (Peter van der Linden) writes: >Today's conspiracy theory: >Information has allegedly come out that some ATF agents shot on the >initial Waco raid were hit with Cyclone ammo, which only the gov't has >access to. The agents shot each other. >One reporter who was present at the raid stated that the first shots were >fired by the ATF, as one of the agents accidentally shot another. And now for the latest... The ATF decided to bulldoze over the entire Mt Carmel site, calling it a health hazard. I guess this makes the 'cover-up' complete. Health hazard, yeah right, like Mt Carmel is a public place, the bodies have been removed, the ammo that didnt burn in the fire is probably quite inert by now. The only 'health' in danger is that of the ATF . From: bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) Subject: INTERVIEW: Waco Survivor Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 12:20:32 GMT What follows is an as close to verbatim as possible transcript of an interview which appeared on ABC's "Good Morning America" on May 17, 1993. Interviewed are David Thibodeau, a survivor of the holocaust at the "Koresh Compound," his mother, Balenda Ganem, and Thibodeau's attorney, Gary Richardson. When I am unsure as to the exact word said, I follow the uncertain word with an enclosed question mark, as follows: [?] INTERVIEWER: ...one of them, the only one yet to be released from custody, is David Thibodeau. He's joining us this morning along with his mother, Balenda Ganem and his attorney, Gary Richardson. And I appreciate all of you being with us. Let's start with you, David. Briefly, the last day and your thoughts as the tanks came in. THIBODEAU: My thoughts as the tanks came in is, uh [sighs] it was pretty, it was very devastating. All along we were hoping to negotiate and work things out. David had made the claimer [?] that once his manuscript was written and he could be sure that it was in the hands of the two theologians mentioned, Tabor [?] and the other gentleman that, you know, he'd be coming out and we'd all work it out. INTERVIEWER: The government said, though, so many times he had reneged on things that they thought he had promised to do. Would he really have done that? THIBODEAU: I would be interested for them to play the negotiation tapes and maybe see a little more depth why he may have reneged on some of his promises. We have been promised things since, since day one on the inside and they reneged as well. INTERVIEWER: I know people who were in there contend that the fires were not set, but started when the tanks knocked over kerosene lanterns, as I understand it. But, but when I look at that videotape, it looks to me as if those fires broke out simultaneously, in a number of places in the compound, well after the tanks had come in. THIBODEAU: Well, I believe there is a videotape that shows the tank going in, I believe, was it the front section we saw that? RICHARDSON: Yeah. THIBODEAU: And then as soon as the tank pulls out, very shortly thereafter, that's when you start to see the smoke. GANEM: You don't see fire immediately... INTERVIEWER: So you don't... GANEM: You don't see fire immediately. It takes time for it to build. INTERVIEWER: But when you see fire, you also see fire in different places, where the tanks were not. So the question is how could the tanks have done that? Was there anything set in the house that could have been burned by people as opposed to the tanks knocking over the lanterns? Was there fires waiting to happen, something that needed to be set to start the fire? THIBODEAU: I believe that the probability for accident would... definitely existed. As far as the malicious thought to actually set a fire, no, I do not believe that existed. INTERVIEWER: The forensic pathologist who was with us in the last half hour said, "...bullet wounds in Koresh's head, bullet wounds in Steve Schneider's head..." Do you know how they died? THIBODEAU: No, I don't. INTERVIEWER: Does that strike you as strange that there were bullet wounds in their heads? THIBODEAU: Umm... I don't know if anything really strikes me as too strange at this point. INTERVIEWER: Was there a suicide pact? THIBODEAU: Let me put it another way: No, there was not a suicide pact. What I would say, and I've said this before, I know that if I were trapped in a fire and there was a fire next to me, and I was... it was very probable that I was going to burn, that I may, I may just take the easy way out. I could, I could see it happening. I could see people being trapped, 'cause when the tanks did go in there, there were hallways, there were places that were cut off. INTERVIEWER: Why didn't people try to get out? Or did they? THIBODEAU: Well, I believe some people did try to get out or else I wouldn't be sitting here... obviously. INTERVIEWER: [To Ganem] Let me ask you... about... so many of the families said that, "We were ignored. We weren't allowed to talk to the authorities. We wanted to have contact with the people inside. We were not utilized." GANEM: From day one when I first came to Waco, I was spurred, we were spurred to come down to Waco after talking to an FBI agent from the task force in San Antonio... who said to me after my calling him every four hours, "I'm sorry, but we have no protocol for family voices. We will be looking at it in the future." I said, "My son may not have a future." I was in Waco the next day, at which point I worked very hard to, to try to network families. There was no task force for families. Once I finally networked a group of families, we worked very hard for two months to try to get, to get our voices heard. I sent letters to Janet Reno, to William Sessions. I faxed the White House. I followed up everything with telephone calls. I compiled a list of families which I sent to the White House to make them realize that these people were ready to drop everything and come to Waco at any moment if we can work with the negotiating team. No voice. No recognition. INTERVIEWER: [To Richardson] Gary, you worked four years as prosecutor. RICHARDSON: Right. INTERVIEWER: Your reaction to the way this was handled, from a prosecutor's point of view. RICHARDSON: I think that it started out wrong and I think that it ended wrong. One mistake after another, I believe, happened. I said all along, from the beginning because I was involved from the beginning, why didn't they just go home, the government, and leave the people alone? No one was afraid of them. I talked to the sheriff there....... INTERVIEWER: .......There were four dead federal agents. RICHARDSON: Well, because they went in firing and these people were defending themselves. Things didn't get better by them staying there. So, I think the solution is obvious that they didn't come to the right conclusions. INTERVIEWER: [To Thibodeau] David, you lost a lot, lost a wife in that fire. Your feelings now... in the last thirty seconds we air. THIBODEAU: My feelings on that subject are very hard to deal with or talk about. I've come to a point where I'm kind of emotionless really, because of everything that's happened. Right now, the only thing that I do really to keep my sanity and everything is keep involved in the situation, keep explaining to people the issues and just make sure that people are aware that there were people inside there, very good people, wonderful people. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Transcribed by Brian Redman (bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) (72567.3145@compuserve.com) "History is written by the assassins." From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) Subject: [comp.org.eff.talk,talk.politics.guns] Re: Waco Reawakened Date: Fri, 28 May 1993 08:56:31 GMT A repost from comp.org.eff.talk,talk.politics.guns: From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) Subject: Re: Waco Reawakened Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 May 93 06:41:05 GMT Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access. The Mouth of the South. osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes: > In Waco the situation was fundamentally and radically different. > An arm of OUR Guvermint was mounting a military assault on OUR > people in a domestic criminal investigation. To make matters > worse, the situation did not appear to offer any serious indications > that there was significant danger in just walking up to the front > door and giving a knock-knock to serve warrant to search. > -Andy V. Good post, andy. Let me put another spin on this whole thing, something many people may not have thought about. Because of their objectives, I suspect the BATF knew that an armed confrontation was inevitable. I suspect one of the main objectives was to execute a civil forfeiture against the church. Consider a few tidbits that have fallen through the cracks. When this thing first got started, one of the charges leveled against the Davidians by the BATF spokestwit was that Koresh was wealthy because he made all his followers turn over their wealth to him. This was ballyhooed in the press for a few days and then dropped. Let's assume that Koresh and/or the Davidian church was wealthy from whatever source. The facts would tend to support that fact. There is the multi-hundred acre compound and the amount of money spent on armaments. So let's assume there was a considerable bit of wealth involved. Given the Davidian's obvious and justified distrust of the government and their belief that the end was near, it would be reasonable to expect that wealth to be in some hard form on the compound. Hard, such as cash or gold or other precious metal. Now we know from experience that in government NewSpeak, lots of cash == DRUG PROFITS. Or Worse. In any event, much too dangerous to allow to remain in private hands. This was, IMO, the irresistible plum, a trophy that could not be allowed to get away. Here's what I suspect happened: * The UPS stoolie contacted the BATF with his tip on the shipments (anyone still shipping ANYTHING via UPS?) * BATF starts investigating the Davidians and quickly realize that there is both a publicity and a wealth plum ready for the picking. * They proceed to build a legal case for a search warrant based on alleged weapons violations while they plan and drill for a total takeover of the compound. * As is usual, greed blinds and the BATF went in very much ill-prepared to take the compound. Intel was bad and the tactics sucked. The storm troopers were probably told to expect resistance. Judging by the offensive armament they carried (grenades, machine-pistols, cyclone bullets, etc), they expected firefights inside the compound against prepared opponents. They were most likely chartered to kill as many witnesses as possible, hence the armor-piercing bullets. I suspect the BATF expected Koresh to realize what was going down and to put up a fight. I suspect Koresh DIDN'T fully realize what was happening as evidenced by his agreeing to a cease-fire and by his NOT firing on government agents until the final assault started. His proper tactic, of course, would have been to continue firing until nothing outside moved. When the ops went awry, the only option left to the government to cover up what they had planned was to kill all the victims. Fire made logical sense. It would kill the victims and destroy evidence (or lack thereof). Who actually struck the match is irrelevant. If you push someone to the edge of a clift with one foot hanging over, it makes little difference whether the slips or is pushed. In summary, had this operation gone right, this would have been a class A, number one propaganda and wealth bonanza for the government. They could have rolled out the surviving "whackos" along with the arsenal of evil baby killing assault weapons which is just what the Brady bunch wants AND they could have rolled out a pile of money and valuables, bragging about how many dollars had been forfeited to the government. There likely would never have been any charges or trials. Take the bootie, take the propaganda and run. John -- John De Armond, WD4OQC |Interested in high performance cars? Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? Marietta, Ga | Send ur snail-mail address to jgd@dixie.com | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag The Great Tragedy of the 20th century is that Clinton's name isn't on the Wall. From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) Subject: Re: Is anything happening re: Waco? Date: 11 Jun 1993 23:25:57 GMT In article <1993Jun9.235848.5811@nntp.hut.fi>, jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes: > Is anything happening regarding the Waco case? Were any illegal guns > found in the ruins? Has it been publicized that at least some of BATF > casualties were the result of fire from other BATF agents? Are most > people just accepting the party line? A repost from info.firearms.politics: forwarded from libernet@dartmouth.edu Date: 7 Jun 93 09:53:00-0400 From: /PN=Jay.Manifold/OU=TXIVGP.PO4/O=SMDALLAS/PRMD=LANGATE/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@sprint.com Subject: To: libernet-d@Dartmouth.EDU According to the 7 Jun 93 US NEWS & WORLD REPORT (p. 42), the "arsenal" acquired by the Branch Davidians at Mount Carmel was comprised of the following: 59 handguns 12 shotguns 94 rifles + 45 machine guns ----------------- 210 firearms Divided into the population of Mount Carmel as of 28 Feb 93, which was approximately 130 persons, this comes to 1.6 firearms per individual. The 1990 population of Texas was approximately 17 million. The only recent estimate I have seen of the total number of firearms in Texas --- regrettably, I cannot recall the source --- was 64 million. I therefore assume per capita firearms ownership in Texas to be on the close order of 3.8, which means: 1. The Branch Davidians were more lightly armed, by a factor of at least 2, than Texas as a whole. 2. Any randomly selected neighborhood in any city or small town in Texas with a population of 130 people would contain nearly 500 firearms of all types. 3. The BATF could conduct much larger (and safer) seizures by simply cordoning off city blocks and doing house-to-house searches. I note that Ross Perot has advocated exactly this --- for black neighborhoods in south Dallas, that is. Permission is hereby granted to copy this everywhere you can think of. -- cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet... From: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: Waco again Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 01:11:00 PDT This is an ambitious undertaking and perhaps too early. I intend to try to summarize the known events in Waco without excessive detail and without reliance upon any unsubstantiated rumors. Further it is not my intent to refute any such rumor. This summary is intended to evolve as more is known. The spirit of this is only facts in evidence and contributions are requested. The Branch Davidians in Waco came to the attention of the BATF one of three legitimate routes, a UPS employee, reported dummy hand grenades, inspection of dealer sales records, the person who heard machine fire reported it. The Branch Davidians were known locally to their neighbors and to the local police as peaceful people and good neighbors. An eight month investigation was conducted to determine the possibility of the violation of any Federal firearms law. As a result of this investigation insufficient information was collected and a search warrant was sought to search for sufficient information. A raid was planned and was carried out. The raid was common knowledge to the local news meadia. The raid was conducted by approximately 100 people who arrived in what has been described as horse trailers. They stormed the complex carrying ladder in the open and without any attempt to assume defensive positions (as they would have done if under fire.) The warrant appears to be secondary as its service was never mentioned again. One agent while climbing a ladder draws his gun and it discharges into his leg. He shouts, "I'm hit." At this point the BATF opened fire, threw grenades into a second floor window and two entered the window. After they entered a third agent threw another grenade in and there is evidence at this point of something coming through the walls outward toward that agent. He appears to have been hit by something. An agent on the ground discharges his gun toward that same roof while the agent is still on it. The shooting at this point is by all evidence coming solely from the BATF agents and the videos show no evidence of any return fire. At some poinnt Koresh called 911 to get the shooting to stop noting that some of his children had been killed. There is no immediate result as he has contacted the sheriff's office which was not involved. While he was talking he was under fire. Koresh states he had said he wanted to talk. Another person comes on line and implies he is shooting and that he has a right to defend himself and reports himself hit. At this point it is up to the sheriff's deputy to negotiate a cease fire which he accomplishes. Due to the deaths of government agents the FBI arrives on the scene with their hostage negotiating team. At some point the FBI reviews the audio and video tapes documenting the above and continues to demand the Branch Davidians surrender to charges of murdering federal agents despite the evidence. In the next few weeks several heavily armed hostages and their families leave the compound and are arrested, held without charges or bond and deprived of the right of counsel. At this point we jump ahead to the end where military vehicles and personnel are illegally used by the FBI to attack the complex with a gas due to be outlawed save in matters of insurrection on 1 January 1994. This is introduced through relatively small holes through the walls of the structure. After this fails either the FBI or the the military begin throwing in gas grenades containing the same compound. Near the end there are two physical penetrations of the building. One by a tank 4:00 minutes before the fire and another 2:40 seconds before the fire. In this time frame two people in black are reported outside the building throwing something into the building. A fire ensues and there are seven people who manage to escape the building. * !!" >>>> * Chlldren of Waco, I feel your PAIN. -- Bill Clinton -- Internet: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Matt.Giwer Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area. From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) Subject: The Courage of Conviction -- "Citizen Ron" Engelman Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 20:08:00 GMT Two weeks ago friday, talk-radio host Ron Engelman quit D/FW local radio station KGBS. Conflicts with station management, especially Morton Downey, and ensuing program changes led to the resignation. Last night (6-29), Pastor Pete Peters interviewed Mr. Engelman, on Peter's shortwave program "Scriptures for America," to get Ron's side of the story. You may want to contact Mr. Engelman for interviews of particular interest to freedom loving individuals concerning: o Lengthy list of verified government lies which caused the destruction of the Branch Davidians. Mr. Engelman covered the action daily from start to end, and was specifically asked for by the Davidians (using banners). On numerous occasion he spoke with and interviewed the Davidians in the Waco jail, and tried at one point to get medical help into Mt. Carmel Center -- The federal authorities wouldn't let him. o How to effectively register a protest with KGBS, (or any any media outlet), by sending letters-of-complaint spe- cifically including a statement that the letter be placed in the "Public File," which they have to respond to and keep record of, for FCC licensing. o Conspiracy & Oppression concerns... "Citizen Ron" has interviewed the players and has an extensive contact list on: - Constitutional Rights (law and history) - Government murder of Weaver Family members - Government destruction of Branch Davidians - Gays, Aids, & Child Abuse (Ron and his wife are raising their grandaughter who's HIV positive, and Ron himself was involved in public protests against gay scout leaders, due to his own child- hood traumas) - NAFTA - New World Order/Globalism - Admiralty Law - Tax Protest, Getting Free of the System - Social Security Number, Licenses, and Privacy - Black Copters (Ron was a marine chopper pilot in Nam) - JFK - New Federalists, Libertarians, Bo Gritz.... etc. etc. etc. Also please note that Chuck Carter's "For The People" radio program, which was being carried by KGBS was dropped for x-FBI agent Gordon Liddy's program, as part of the station shake-up. Mort Downey is likely the major influence instigating the changes in my opinion, and has commented that Engelman's on-air resignation was, "the kind of thing kids do," as reported in the Dallas Morning News. (Mort should know. ;-) Ron Engelman is a teddy-bear, most always gracious, and usually quite reasonable, who still believes in America as a nation of promise and integrity, (which automatically makes him a bit nuts). Please, pray for him as a fellow Christian, and should you contact him, pass on a "Semper Fi" in honor of a fellow veteran. The man has guts. Mr. Engelman has given out his contact info: (Yeahhh!!!) "Citizen Ron" Engelman (214) 386-8001 fax 5120 Placid Wave Place Dallas TX 75244 (And remind him please, that he needs to complete compiling that book, with the one-two page summaries that folks keep sending him, on all the dastardly deeds going on. Either that or start a newsletter.) The contact info for KGBs is: (booooo!, hisssss!) 3500 Maple (214) 526-2580 business office Suite 1470 526-9891 fax Dallas TX 75219 988-1190 call-in 263-1190 metro | -- J -- ... he that does truth comes to the light, | that his deeds may be made manifest, | stephen that they are wrought in God. (John 3:21) From: mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee) Subject: Ron Engelman's Speech about Waco Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 21:16:57 GMT From February through June, 1993, the mid-morning stalk show on KGBS, 1190 AM (Dallas, Texas) was hosted by Ron Engelman. Ron's show was wide-ranging in scope. But, most of his callers wanted to talk about the BATF raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. For months, his show covered more about Waco than all the other talk shows put together. The Libertarian Party invited Ron Engelman to speak about the WACO MASSACRE to a packed house of 250 people in Richardson (just north of Dallas). Ron's prepared remarks took 30-45 minutes and then he answered questions about Waco for 1 hour. He answered a couple of questions about Ruby Creek, Idaho, also. The entire event was video taped, edited, and duplicated professionally. Including announcements, the tape is 1 hour and 45 minutes. If you would like a copy of this video, please send 15.00 per tape to: LIBERTARIAN PARTY OF DALLAS COUNTY P.O. BOX 64832 DALLAS, TEXAS 75206 Your tape will be sent by mail, postage paid (within the USA). Within a week after this public speech about the WACO MASSACRE, Ron was told to move his mid-morning show to 6 am, take a co-host, and make the show "light and fluffy". Ron refused and resigned. Ron Engelman's mid-morning slot was filled by G. Gordon Liddy - one the Watergate/FBI conspirators. Morton Downey, Jr. has a show from Noon until 1 PM. and is one of the managers of the station. Now, many of the hosts have a Republican leaning. This video tape may be your best chance to see Ron answering questions for a live audience. From: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: Waco felonies Date: Sun, 04 Jul 93 09:56:00 PDT The BATF used National Guard helicopters (the NG is part of the Army) and the FBI used tanks. Thus ... 18 USC Sec. 1385 Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. Modified in 1988 To: 1988 Edition (United States Code) In force January 3,1989 10 USC 375 Restriction on direct participation by military personnel. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that the provision of any support (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) to any cililian law enforcement official under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member ---------------------------------------------------------- of the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marine Corps in a search or seizure, an ----------------------------------------------------------------------- arrest or other similar activity unless participation in such activity ----------------------------------------------------- by such member is otherwise authorized by law." It wasn't. So if Army personnel was used would be in direct conflict with this law. And Ms. Reno would/should be subject to two years in jail and a $10,000 fine. As would some others. * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Hillarygate at the White House Travel Office. -- Internet: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Matt.Giwer Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area. From: sp5@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (dennis.a.truxal) Subject: Waco B/D Property Date: 5 Jul 93 03:46:18 GMT It will be very interesting to see if after a short while, it develops that someone or some organization may have designs on the property that was the Mt. Carmel compound of David Koresh and the B/D's. It would not be surprising in the least if the underlying cause of the Waco massacre was a desire on the part of someone to get the land. I would presume that some contingent of the Branch Davidians must surely still hold title to the property (I would hope so, anyway). Anybody know anything about the eventual disposition of this property? The manner in which the BATF has been exercising "forfeiture" in similar cases would indicate to me that they may, in fact, be able to claim this property. If so, that just could be the root cause of the entire debacle. I hope that isn't the case (of course, the reason hardly matters), but it wouldn't be the first time. D. Truxal From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) Subject: re: Judgment Day for America Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 00:19:00 GMT "Down at the cross where my Savior died, Down where for cleansing from sin I cried There to my heart was the blood applied; Glory to His name." -- E. A. Hoffman Hmmm, just what is "glory?" In article <1993Jul5.080718.18294@dxcern.cern.ch>, ^^^^^^^ Phillip Hallam-Baker PHD writes about ... >(dbruedig@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu), Dena L Bruedigam ... >|>Phill Hallam-Baker... DLB: >|>If the U.S. Justice Department is serious about investigating what >|>went on in the Branch Davidian compound, then why did they bull-doze >|>the entire area shortly after the fire? It seems logical that that >|>act would have destroyed any remaining physical evidence. PH-B: >The people of Waco probably don't want a burned out building standing >about for several years reminding people of a bunch of people the town >would very much like to forget. DLB: >|>The former BD compound is merely a field now. PH-B: >A very sensible precaution to prevent it becoming a shrine for weirdos. The main Dallas newspaper on July 2nd quoted McLennan County Commisioner Lester Gibson... "I do agree we can make that a tourist area out there, just like the Alamo is in San Antonio. It evidently can be a revenue-producing area because of the atten- tion it has produced, but the big question is, When will it wear off?" Mt. Carmel Center is about 10 miles east of Waco, out in the county, (in Texas, counties are an extension of the state). The state is erecting a chain link fence around the property. Federal officials have declared it a hazardous waste site, and could very likely get control of the property due to "the cost of clean-up." DLB: >|>The question is not whether or not the BDs owned weapons. The >|>question is whether or not the BDs committed an act that was >|>justifiably punishable by death and why this sentence was carried >|>out without the accused being given the right to a jury trial >|>(see amendment 6 of the U.S. Constitution). Doctor Hallam-Baker is either British or South African, (or maybe he claims EC or world citizenship these days). Are you working in Eastern Europe now Phill, rather than Germany? PH-B: >They had that option, to exercise it they had to first surrender to >the officers of the law. They had that option for every hour of every >day for three months, they chose not to exercise it. The Constitution >does not and should not protect people from themselves. And what of the children? Why did the authorities put them in jeopardy, from the very first raid, and throughout? Why did the authorities use psychological warfare and cs-gas on them? These are some of the children who died: Chanel Andrade (age 1) Abigail Martinez (11) Page Gent (1) Audrey Martinez (13) Cyrus Howell (8) Crystal Martinez (3) Star Howell (6) Isaiah Martinez (4) Serenity Sea Jones (4) Melissa Morrison (6) Bobbie Lane Koresh (1) Mayanah Schneider (2) Lisa Martin (13) Startle Summer (1) Sheila Martin (15) Hollywood Sylvia (2) Rachel Sylvia (13) PH-B: >The question is why the BDs were allowed to raise a quasi military >force. Nonsense. They made money by selling arms at gun shows. Quite lucra- tive no doubt after the LA riots, but definitely an action which chal- lenges others involved in weapons sales. It'd be extremely ironic if they somehow upset a scheme to fund covert or clandestine operations; but it sure would explain why special forces methods were used against them. PH-B: >The fact that they claimed to be Christians is irrelevant. Then why jail Livingston -- as a witness -- for so long? And why silence Koresh after the one hour broadcast? Before then, children were being brought out with parents. After, Koresh was muzzled. The big difference was that the address dealt largely with Christ. It seems they would have played it several times just to let Koresh know for certain that it wasn't big news -- unless of course, Koresh preaching Christ is big news. And still Livingstone is being silenced, held as a witness now for 4 months. He's been moved from McLennan County Jail in Waco, to the Coryell County Sheriff's office in Gatesville, just north of Ft. Hood and west of McClennan County. Why not let him go? It's not like he'd run back to England and abandon his children who came out with him. It's so sad that his Wife and Mother died in the inferno -- and still they're bodies are unburied, along with the rest of the dead. PH-B: >Those that commit acts of murder must be brought to justice. Those who >resist the lawful actions of democratic government must be brought to >justice.... Those in government and out, who should be tried here on earth, shall get their justice come Judgment Day. Hopefully they've accepted God's forgiveness for their sins before then -- by repenting, and calling on Christ's name. (Romans 3:10,23 / 5:8 / 6:23 / 10:9,13) Otherwise they are headed for immolation themselves. (Revelation 14:9-13) PH-B: >The BATF may not be a particularly efficient or intelligent force. >However given the widespread ownership of weapons amongst the criminal >classes of the USA it is a sad fact that it is possibly the best form >of policing that is practical within the USA. Better guns, than matches -- fire is much more deadly, and easier to arrange -- one of the lessons of Waco. One that the Turkish Fundamenta- lists seem to understand quite clearly. Such is satan's corruption of the =Glory= of God's coming. David and Livingstone were trying to tell that to others. They were trying to give sinners "the key to the seven seals" to obtain that shield which enables them to stand the Coming of our Lord. Compare with Paul... ...And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the *presence of the Lord*, and from the *glory* of his power; (2nd Thessalonians 1:7-9) It's simply that the wicked can not withstand the Presence of God. Glory be unto His Name! Amen. When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, accord- ing to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. (2nd Thessalonians 1:10-12) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5) {... It's good to compare this with what Christ said in Matthew 24 & 25 .... continuing here with Paul...} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2nd Thes. 2:6-7) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceiv- ableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong de- lusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2nd Thes. 2:9-12) The truth is -- all you have to do to be saved is repent of your wicked self pride that causes you to put more faith in your own understanding, than in Christ Jesus's promises -- and just call out Christ's name. He will get you through the rest. It's easy -- why then do you struggle so? Call Christ's name, believing in your heart that Almighty God raised him from the dead, and you likewise shall be saved. And ye also shall glory in the Presence of God. == Righteous and true are the judgments of God Almighty, our Lord == | "Come to this fountain so rich and sweet; Cast thy poor -- J -- soul at the Savior's feet; Plunge in today, and be made | complete; Glory to His name...." | stephen From: odin@world.std.com (Hank Roth) Subject: PDC:WACO Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 04:03:37 GMT *-*-* pnews conferences *-*-* From: Hank Roth Subject: PDC letter to Gov't From: Spartacists 19 April 1993 Attorney General Janet Reno 10th Street and Constitution Ave. NW Washington, D.C. 20530-0001 By: Fax Ms. Reno: The Partisan Defense Committee condemns the Clinton administration's mass killing of 87 and possibly more members of the racially integrated Branch Davidians religious sect. Fifty-one days ago the government laid siege to this small religious group. Their only "crimes" were to exercise rights guaranteed under the first two amendments of the U.S. constitution--freedom of religious worship and the right to bear arms--and the inherent right of all individuals to defend themselves from a brutal assault. The Branch Davidians sought to live and worship in peace. For 51 days they were subject to intimidation, threats, isolation, government blockade, bright searchlights and ear-shattering noise--like an outdoors version of the Marion prison high-tech torture chambers. For 51 days they held out. At approximately 1:00 p.m. today the government gave its answer. After hours of tear gas saturation and demolition, the compound burst into flames. Less than an hour later there was nothing left but ash. It's nobody's business what religion one practices. The FBI and BATF agents had no right to be there in the first place. Now the government alibies this mass killing by claiming David Koresh and his followers set the fire themselves. We have no reason to believe this lying government. But the inescapable fact is they died as a result of a deliberate assault after weeks of government terror and torture. This was government mass murder. The history of American capitalism is strewn with mass graves-- from the massacre of Sioux at Wounded Knee to the invasion of Panama. Today's massacre immediately calls to mind the Mother's Day 1985 bombing of the Philadelphia MOVE commune, ordered by Democratic Party mayor Wilson Goode with the aid of the Reagan White House. Eleven black people were burned to death, five of them children, and an entire block of homes burned to the ground as a government message to all who stand up for their rights. It also recalls the 1942 Nazi obliteration of the Czech town of Lidice--executing all male inhabitants to avenge the killing of Reinhard Heydrich, architect of the "final solution" for European Jewry. Grotesquely, the Waco massacre comes on the 50th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. In a just society the perpetrators of this atrocity would stand in the dock before their surviving victims. But this capitalist society is organized racist injustice. Not one government official responsible for the bombing of MOVE was ever charged with a crime, while Ramona Africa, the sole adult survivor, spent seven years in prison. Today, even as no life stirred in the burning embers, federal agents already discussed indictments for survivors of this brutal state massacre. The Partisan Defense Committee demands that no charges be filed against any Branch Davidian members, and that they all be immediately released. Yours, Paul Cooperstein From: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: Judgment day for amer 1/2 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 93 18:17:00 PDT HP> |> This in an interesting point you have brought up. If the HP> |> U.S. Justice Department is serious about investigating what HP> |> went on in the Branch Davidian compound, then why did they HP> |> bull-doze the entire area shortly after the fire? It seems HP> |> logical that that act would have destroyed any remaining HP> |> physical evidence. HP> Have you asked them or are you merely looking for feeble HP> support for your conspiracy theories? HP> The people of Waco probably don't want a burned out HP> building standing about for several years reminding people HP> of a bunch of people the town would very much like to HP> forget. I have the dates around somewhere. The sequence of events is as follows. The families of the dead (and everyone else for that matter) had not been allowed near the compound. Thursday the families announce their intention to sue for access to the site. Friday the government discovers raw sewage and the local public health service declares the area quarantined. Saturday the government bulldozes the site. Now, I do not know about you but I would suggest the FBI is the most incompetant investigative service in the world if they can miss raw sewage for over a month. The timing of the discovery, which just happened to end run the courts, does lead some people to a touch of paranoia. HP> |> The former BD compound is merely a field now. And if you HP> |> don't believe this, why not go to Waco and see for HP> |> yourself? HP> A very sensible precaution to prevent it becomming a shrine HP> for wierdos. Sir. I am not aware of that being a compelling government interest but I would have thought the owners of the property might have a say in the matter. HP> |> The question is not whether or not the BDs owned weapons. HP> |> The question is whether or not the BDs committed an act that HP> |> was justifiably punishable by death and why this sentence HP> |> was carried out without the accused being given the right to HP> |> a jury trial (see amendment 6 of the U.S. Constitution). HP> They had that option, to exercise it they had to first HP> surrender to the officers of the law. They had that option HP> for every hour of every day for three months, they chose HP> not to excercise it. The Constitution does not and should HP> not protect people from themselves. You have to look at it from the perspective of the people inside. Some idiot BATF type shoots himself in the leg, shouts "I'm hit" and 100+ (one hundred+) begin indiscriminately firing at them for nearly an hour, killing some 11 people including one infant. For that hour the BDs are attempting to call a cease fire but the BAFT refused to answer their radio (yes, radios are manned.) Prior to the phone calls for a cease fire Koresh himself had tried to talk to them and they shot him twice. After the cease fire two (2) BDs were killed by BATF snipers. The FBI showed up and demanded they surrender for the murder of their attackers. Several people did leave. They were arrested, held without charges or bail, were denied attorneys, were held incommunidaco. To this you can add all of the lies the FBI and BATF were spreading in the press conferences particularly the child abuse and drug lab lies. To this we add the illegal use of National Guard helicopters and tanks. Now would you surrender to a lying, murdering, illegal, dishonorable bunch of thugs for the sole prospect of disappearing into some federal jail and never being heard from again? HP> The question is why the BDs were allowed to raise a quasi HP> military force. The fact that they claimed to be Christians HP> is irrelevant. in Northern Ireland today there are two HP> groups of "Christians" which spend their time attempting HP> the murder of each other. They have been doing this for HP> several hundred years. Look at the center of Belfast if you HP> want to see the result of Catholic and Protestant HP> terrorism. If that was the question we got a very silly answer now didn't we? Noting there was never any allegation of such a force (there is a law regarding that which grew out of the civilian attempts to invade Cuba) and it is the jurisdiction of the FBI not of the BATF. The sole issue, exactly in accordance with the warrant, is if the knowledge to convert weapons to full automatic without either actually converting the weapons or the equipment to do so constitutes a violation of the law. In other words if you have a shotgun and know it can be converted into an illegal sawed off shotgun does that solely make your possession of that shotgun illegal ever if it is not known if you have ever owned anything to saw it off? The warrant the BATF obtained makes exactly that allegation. HP> |> Is this how you would like our government to treat all gun HP> |> owners? HP> Those that commit acts of murder must be brought to HP> justice. Those who resist the lawful actions of democratic HP> government must be brought to justice. To allow otherwise HP> is to accept anarchy. Of course but when are the BATF people going to be charged? Or rather is not charging them evidence of tyranny? HP> The BATF may not be a particularly efficient or intelligent HP> force. However given the widespread ownership of weapons HP> amongst the criminal classes of the USA it is a sad fact HP> that it is possibly the best form of policing that is HP> practical within the USA. You are aware that barely 5% of the BATF actions are directed at weapons intended for use in connection with a crime? You are aware they have no jurisdiction over illegal ownership of guns? (Only over the types of guns that are defined as illegal by the law.) I would suggest you know little to nothing about the BATF. Back in 1983 a Congressional investigation found 80% of the "crimes" they uncovered were little more than entrapment. At that time Treasury made plans to disband it but no agency would take the personnel -- the adjective disgraced was often used in front of the word personnel. -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Hillarygate at the White House Travel Office. -- Internet: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Matt.Giwer Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area. From: dlo@druwa.att.com (131A60000-OlsonDL(DR9422)403do) Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:36:07 GMT In article <2JUL199323251630@utarlg.uta.edu>, b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) writes: } In article <1993Jul2.191605.21419@dxcern.cern.ch>, } Phillip Hallam-Baker PHD (hallam@alws.cern.ch) writes... } >So you are asserting that the B-Ds :- } > } >1 Had no weapons whatsoever. } >2 Did not fire on Police officers } >3 Were Perfectly willing to surrender } >4 Were willing to allow their children to move to saftey } >5 Did not set the compound alight. } > ... } } 1. Yes, the Davidians were selling guns legally purchased through arms dealers } at gun shows around Texas to make money, simply a matter of public record. And remember being told repeatedly about all the illegal weapons that were supposed to justify the raid in the first place? I wonder what ever happened to them. How many times have we seen federal agents, soon after a raid, conduct a photo-op where they display before them all the contraband that had been seized? Usually accompanied by congratulations all around. One would think that with all the criticism that the BATF and the FBI received over Waco, they would jump at anything that justified their reason for being there. Yet, it has been almost three months since the final raid, and nothing. Zip. After all the news conferences they held almost every day during the seige, why would they keep their silence after their "success"? Unless they feared that further attention might reveal their actions range from incompetent to outright criminal. And so they must keep a lid on it, or at least create diversions (such as child abuse accusations), in hopes that people will either forget about the whole thing or, better yet as Phillip has done, accept their actions as proper. } ... } 4. Yes, 21 children out of 37 Davidians who came out in the first week, } were indeed moved to the so-called "safety" of jail and state custody. } More facts in the public record. And would you consider delivering your children into the tender loving care of people who had turned off the electricty and water and who had been subjecting those same children to the blaring sounds of things like animal torture night after night? } ... } >The lesson of WACO is that controls on firearms are absolutely essential. There are already about 20,000 gun control laws in the US now. The real lesson is that we have a government completely run amok, and has so far gotten away with it. -- David Olson dlo@druwa.att.com "Well, I did say we'll put it out and we'll put it out when we can. But I don't know what we can put out or when we can put it out." -- George Stephanopolous. From: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: The big lie 1/2 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 93 09:56:00 PDT We might as well learn something from the Branch Davidian episode regarding people and the press and the gov. The incident first came to light with the headlines of four BATF people killed serving a search warrant. It took some time before people were noting the warrant was served with a hand grenade thrown through a window. The Government originally predicted a quick ending after a radio broadcast and after they announced he had agreed. He apparently did not agree or did not trust them or whatever, we may never know. About a week passed before it became a topic of interest to the media rather interestingly also in that when the media became bored and were giving it minimum coverage there was the final assault. The media responded with a bare minimum of facts and a lot of imagery to fill in the air time. In a search for material the term cult was used to suggest sinister things and make references to the Jamestown mass suicide. Example. Prime Time Live on 18 March 93 ran the same BATF footage at least three times while talking about subjects that only matched up in the words and not the actions. They ran interviews with ex-members who frankly had very little damaging to say. The government was actually the organization feeding this hysterical misrepresentation of events. Example. The gov sent in their hostage team for the only reason I can see as the nearest equivalent they had. The Gov then refered to people as "being released" rather than "deciding to leave." Since then I have read here allegations the children were begin held hostage and that husbands were holding their wives hostage at gun point. Where did this come from? People took the lead and began talking on their own. Example. Noting there has been no public statement by Koresh since the Wendsday after the start, people here are talking about Koresh based upon the cult leader image not based upon Koresh. The idea of cult conjured was of something evil and sinister ignoring the literally hundreds of "cults" and "cult leaders" that have been named since Jim Jones. We are heard people making claims as to his motivations and those of his followers. We are heard regular insights into the mind of Koresh. Statements are being made where no supporting information exists. There are many others. Example. We read implicitely and explicitely that the BDs were armed with the intention of insurrection and over throw of the government when when no evidence of that ever had any such intention. This made them the object of hate for those who fear revolution. Example. We read the constant implication that the mere posession of guns was a crime. The government from Clinton on down has refused to identify which laws they were suspected of violating. Example. We heard the constant use of the term "assault weapon" which, under any definition used in common parlance in this country are completely legal under Federal Law and under the laws of most states including Texas. This made them an object of hate for those who fear guns. Example. We heard the ridiculously high figure of the Waco operation costing one million dollars a day (which works to about one thousand men per shift. Thus providing a crutch for those who put a price tag on human life. Example. We heard they were manufacturing methamphetamines without the slightest evidence of it, connecting them with all the evils of drugs. This made them an object of hate for those who fear drugs. Example. We heard "concerns" over child abuse of which there was absolutely no evidence but that tear- and knee- jerking allegation has been made over and over from the President on down without the slighest reason to believe it. This made them the object of hate for those who fear child abuse. Example. We heard the Branch Davidians blamed for conditions (lack of food, sanitation) that were caused by the government. This made them the object of hate for those who fear child abuse. Example. We heard the constant allegation of illegal weapons without the slightest evidence of any illegal weapons existing and have been treated to a display of burned, legal weapons by the government. Again inspiring fear among those who fear guns. Example. We heard them blamed for responding to a deadly government attack with deadly force. Example. We heard they shot people wanting to leave when there are no signs of anyone having been shot. [ Continued In Next Message... ] Subject: The big lie 2/2 Example. They had enough rations to hold out for years; the children were starving. Example and perhaps the most onerous one. The Government accused them of using the children as shields and then excused its final attack with a concern for the condition under which the children were living. The government was in fact using the concerns of the parents for their children having to live under the conditions the government imposed. Cold, callous, cruel use of children and their parents' concern for them. Here we have seven weeks, 51 days, of allegation and innuendo none of which has substantiation and we have the majority of the country agreeing with the government. We had constant new rumors all of which were instigated by the government. Now watching carefully we have the anatomy of the Big Lie and it is not what we sort of imagine it to be. It is not the repetition of the same lie over and over in some clumsy manner. It is varying statements and images around many existing themes. It is not one huge lie but rather constant insinuation and half statements letting people's imagination fill in the missing parts. It is not creating new lies but rather connecting the target with what is already considered evil. Confusion was first sown with conflicting statements, conflicting only over which type of bad it was they were guilty of. Then the imagery of terrorism, messiah, allusions to what others have done started. (It is interesting to hear the Gov reassure everyone over and over this was not a Jim Jones situation with no evidence anyone had ever asked the question.) What has happened is the imagination pump has been primed. In absense of coherent information people are filling in the blanks with what they believe to be parallel matters and attributing them to this incident. There is nothing new about people filling in the blanks when information is missing. It is the classic psych eval of "tell me about the situation in this picture." If you ever need to start a big lie don't ever get the idea you need a mustache and ten thousand cheering listeners to do it. The Koresh incident is a great blue print. Is it any wonder the Jews were easy picking for the Nazis? * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Class envy is a one way street. -- Internet: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Matt.Giwer Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area. From: bobz@trystero.com (Bob Zwarick) Subject: Re: A Letter from Livingstone Fagan // re: Judgment Day for America Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 14:52:39 GMT AT> Bear in mind the activities of the Federal Government AT> that led to this individual's jailing; an armed, no- AT> knock raid by a *tax* bureau, possible unwarrented AT> killing of civilians, a siege by Federal Law Enforcement AT> agencies which used psy-war techniques one would normally AT> expect to be found only in some garden spot such as AT> North Korea...then finally an armed assault with chemical AT> weapons and tanks (what about Posse Comitatus?(sic)) AT> resulting in almost 80 men, women and children burned AT> to death. AT> AT> And now this; an appalling silence on the part of AT> those who claim "our only client is the Constitution". AMEN! -- =============================================================================== Bob Zwarick "Call me by name again, again forever, and never will it sound without response" =============================================================================== From: jbs@ee.ee.duke.edu (Joe B. Simpson) Subject: Re: .50 cal. p-shooter Date: 19 Jul 93 04:51:15 GMT In article <1559.2C49B3C1@mechanic.fidonet.org> Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) writes: < * Original from SCOTT SUMMERS to MATT GIWER on 07-15-93. < He also stated that just within the last couple of days he had, once >again, been interviewed by the Texas Rangers and that their investigation so >far directly contradicts every claim made for that tape. (BTW a .50 cal weapon >*was* found in the burnt-out building. A single-shot rifle that can be legally >purchased from almost any gun shop - no license required). What claims, exactly, is he saying were on the tape that the Rangers' investigation has "contradicted?" The tape contains an interview with a person who clearly states that there *was* a .50 cal rifle in the complex, and that it was not full-auto. > In short, it looks as if Ms Thompson is just a jerkwater lawyer (as well >as, maybe, a conspiracy buff) who has developed a money making scheme, and is >using here cover-up dialogue as a marketing tool. What she's doing may be >legal, but it's nevertheless a scam. And what this vulture has been doing with >regards to the families of the Davidians is the kind of stuff that gives >lawyers a bad name. In short, it looks as if Mr. Summers has gone off half cocked by talking to some people he doesn't know, picking up some vibes on some things that were "implied," and by making a lot of assumptions clearly based on his preformed conclusions. -joe -- You spend the night Like you were spending a dime - Lyle Lovett From msc.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.uta.edu!utarlg.uta.edu!b645zaw Fri Jul 23 13:53:04 1993 Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.religion.misc Path: msc.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!news.uta.edu!utarlg.uta.edu!b645zaw From: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) Subject: Re: FEDS TRIED TO SILENCE LONE VOICE FOR FREEDOM AT WACO Message-ID: <23JUL199311373438@utarlg.uta.edu> News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Sender: b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (Stephen Tice) Nntp-Posting-Host: utarlg.uta.edu Organization: The University of Texas at Arlington References: <17877@news.duke.edu> <22nulu$kgl@panix.com> <23JUL199302493996@utarlg.uta.edu> <1993Jul23.125438.6126@midway.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 16:37:00 GMT Lines: 99 Xref: msc.edu alt.conspiracy:30495 talk.religion.misc:74458 In article <1993Jul23.125438.6126@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes... >> >What's your position on the bulldozing of the site before any of the >> >accuseds' lawyers could inspect the area? > >Lawyers were on the site long before the BD's committed mass suicide/murder. You were obviously hurried in your response counselor. The implication the questioner posed is that by bulldozing the site, no after-the-fact determination could be made of the events of the fire, or earlier. It was wrong to obliterate the site before any trials. (Especially in comparison with other "lead contamination" sights such as the former-smelters in Dallas, which the EPA has been dragging it's feet on for years. Obviously no need to rush. More evidence of a cover-up -- quite literally.) It's the same as "running over the vehicles," or demolishing the building, no reconstruction of any of the firefights could be made. The feds proved particularly inept at doing so from their contrived photos in the Weaver case. The problem can't arise regarding Mt Carmel, because the only (at least they wish) evidence left is their official photos, videos, and documents. Same for the fire -- obscure the evidence. Same for the media propaganda -- obscure the evidence. And btw, shaping public opinion is a most improper function for a federal agency regarding the legality of it's actions, which happened from the very start. For instance, the blurb they edited onto the Koresh tape at the beginning. I did not note their attempt in my transcripts, but it was, "I David Koresh... agree upon the broadcasting of this tape... to come out peacefully... with all the people.... immediately." So, the feds were guilty of manipulating the public from the very start. (And even before the raid, considering the "public relations" press briefings, days before.) Logically, if you can't manipulate public perceptions, you cover-up instead... >b645zaw@utarlg.uta.edu (stephen) writes: >>The lesson of the nixon-tapes -- no evidence, no case -- or should >>I say "habeas corpus." > >I'd love to hear what you think "habeas corpus" has to do with the Nixon >tapes. (Serves you right for showing off.) Again, more evidence of your being hurried. Is it a stretch for you to connect "a Judges requirement to produce the one imprisoned -- so that the =legality= of their imprisonment can be examined," with "producing evidence which exposes criminality?" Or is it that you'd prefer to discount jailing people wrongly because of =legal= mistakes -- in that you might sometime be held legally accountable yourself? In other words, my parallel is between producing the body-of-the-victim, and the body-of-evidence. Both needed to ascertain fact. But thank you Ted, for the implied complement, and opportunity to reinforce my point. >>I understand your point regarding Beam, who was likely mostly interested >>in supporting the 2nd amendment, and perhaps 1st too. > >For whites. I assure you that a President Beam would have no compunctions >for violating either amendment. Beam's sole interest was grandstanding >in front of the press to attract the admiration of the gullible. No argument. Consistent with my post, I was pointing to his being a rightist in the sense of being "an enforcer." Most assuredly were he and his ilk in power they would write laws to justify their actions. Do YOU doubt this?? The issue of his being ejected is no different than any other person being ejected for doing the same thing. If it had been Ted Frank there asking the forbidden question, I've no doubt the same supposedly "gullible" folks would stand for your rights -- when you were ousted. Others of us might just keep quite instead, and let an evil society consume itself. >ted frank | "It's society's problem. I'm just trying to | "Now the chief priest, and elders, and all the council, -- J -- sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; | but found none: yea, though many false witness came, yet | stephen found they none. At the last came two false witnesses..." (Matthew 26:59-60, cf. Rev. 11) ^^^ (also note v. 63) From: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: Feds tried to silence Date: Sat, 24 Jul 93 00:02:00 PDT RM> The feds HAVE paraded numerous legal weapons in front of RM> the press. Odd that only the "illegal conversions" burned RM> up, huh? The Feds never had any reason to believe there were any automatic weapons there in the first place. They only said they did. The warrant does not support the allegations. I have the opinion of a fireworks experts the "explosives" listed in the warrant are "pretty tame stuff." There was no excuse for the assault in the first place. RM> What's your position on the bulldozing of the site before RM> any of the accuseds' lawyers could inspect the area? Two days before (Thursday) the bulldozing I caught on the news the families of the dead were going to court to file suit for access to the site. Friday, after some fourty days of searching the site, the Feds discovered human sewage. Saturday, the site was bulldozed. Damn stupid Feds walking around in shit for over a month and not noticing it. RM> Waco, and the liberal's cold acceptance of the wholsale RM> violations of citizens rights by the FBI and the BATF, have RM> totally shaken my political foundations -- I was never a RM> liberal (thank Christ!), but I'd always thought myself a RM> leftist until this can of worms arrived. RM> The libs were more than happy to see the FBI for what it RM> was under Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon. Now that the feds RM> perpetrate their crimes against whites to the right, they RM> can be forgiven of all their sins! The had legal guns didn't they? That is good enough to condemn anyone. RM> And anyone who testifies to the truth of the matter is RM> automatically a 'limbaugh-lover' or a 'gun-nut!' RM> I PRAY to be wrong, but I fear the liberals are heading for RM> a rude awakening. Liberals never awaken. * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Sometimes the Gov has to kill kids in order to save the -- Internet: Matt.Giwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Matt.Giwer Note: mechanic is a Fidonet<>USENET gate for TAMPA BAY,FL. The opinions stated in this post are only my own! From: bill@alamut.cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) Subject: How WACO started Date: 27 Jul 1993 18:01:43 -0700 How Waco Started All it took was a charismatic man who liked collecting more weapons than he would ever use. He would pronounce loony statements like "I think Armageddon is coming soon" and he soon developed a large following of people who would dote on his every word, and support him no matter how irrational his behavior. They moved into a high-security compound, where they could manage the arms business away from surveillance, though he would send his agents out to arrange the frequent illegal weapons transactions. Finally, the feds got wind of what was going on, and moved in. But they blew the raid, and what should have been an easy arrest turned into a long siege, filling the papers week after week with reported "progress" on the talks, but still he remained free, though hiding in his compound while outside surrounded by federal agents and hordes of press. But somehow he managed to hold out under pressure, dragging it on incessantly, even rising to the publicity, week after week coming up with more preposterous demands, while the officials became frustrated at the endless holdout and the lack of progress. All the while his blinded cult followers supported his messianic and deranged statements (though some on the outside contended they were brainwashed and being held against their will, there was little to support this theory). But finally the public began to forget about the whole thing, and when the whole sordid affair came to an end, there were few actual witnesses, only a handful of press agents and the prosecutors themselves, watching their work go up in flames as a crazed self-aggrandazing cult leader did the unthinkable: He pardoned all of the defendents. Yep, Reagan and Bush inspired David Koresh to do what only they could get away with. So as a final warning to all you average folks out there, remember: Don't try this at home, kids. -- Bill Eldridge bill@cognet.ucla.edu 310-206-3960 (3987 fax) More! Better! Faster! (80's motto) x x x x Hot, Toxic, and Shallow! (90's motto) x xx x x Free Rorschach Sig! (interpretation extra) x xx xx x From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu Subject: Waco's Independent Investigator Date: 28 Jul 93 17:59:18 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: aspen.ulowell.edu I don't know if anyone has posted this information yet, but the "independent investigator" who said that the BD's started the fire was an ATF agent for 8 years, married to an ATF agent, and attended the funeral of one of the ATF agents who got killed. One of the lawyers for the family of a dead BD has filed a motion in court. Hopefully, there'll be a real independent investigation into the cause of the fire. Maybe a legal scholar out there can answer a question about search warrants. The warrant that the ATF had, specified that it was to be served in the usual manner. The ATF decided to barge into the facilities instead. Does this make the warrant null and void? --Ray Cote From: mgiwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: Waco... pt xxxiv Date: Tue, 17 Aug 93 00:36:00 PDT * Carbon Copy: * Original message to MIKE PIETRANTONI in the f-CONTROV conference. Thank you. MP> Matt, As of yesterday Aug. 13th, the survivors have been MP> re-indicted on charges of, get this - "conspiring to murder MP> federal agents". From USA Today Aug. 13th 1993 - "..a Waco MP> grand jury has accused two women and 10 men of murdering MP> four Treasury agents during a Feb.28th. raid....In addition MP> the 12 are accused of conspiring to kill FBI agents during MP> the seige." "The indictment cahrges that cult members MP> DECIDED TO AMBUSH AGENTS AFTER GETTING ADVANCE WORD OF THE MP> RAID" Un-bleeping believable. Getting an indictment is easy. Most grand juries do not know they can tell the state to go to hell and do whatever they want. It will be interesting to see an extension of the conspiracy to cover this case. Lets see, who was in charge? There must be a dozen transcripts available where the Gov says Koresh was completely in charge, holding hostages, all the rest. Koresh conspired with himself? OK the act of shooting demonstrates conspiracy. Sounds good to me. Prove who did any shooting. Prove who followed any orders. From that charge it would appear there is no evidence of any illegal guns or anything else and that the entire raid was a fraud just as anyone who reads the warrant can see. -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Read "Sleeping Your Way to the Top" by Hillary Clinton -- Fidonet: 1:3603/326 Internet: mgiwer@mechanic.fidonet.org Note: These are only my own opinions...but others may agree! From: f_gautjw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Subject: Another Waco Lie Date: 4 Nov 93 19:58:02 CST An article posted on talk.politics.guns: X-NEWS: ccsvax.sfasu.edu talk.politics.guns: 38364 Relay-Version: VMS News - V6.1 24/02/92 VAX/VMS V5.5-2; site ccsvax.sfasu.edu Path: ccsvax.sfasu.edu!menudo.uh.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!nntp.msstate.edu!ukma!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!nscf!lakes!kisbbs!uucp Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Subject: Another Waco lie Message-ID: <752329236.AA06291@kisbbs.FIDONET.ORG> From: Al.Thompson@f110.n231.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Al Thompson) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 05:58:01 -0500 X-FTN-To: all Lines: 45 * Original to All of 1:3624/7, on * Forwarded on by Terry Buyers of 1:3624/7@fidonet.org I was reviewing tapes of TV news broadcasts of Waco last night, and one of them included the Ted Koppel show of April 19, that had Janet Reno as a guest. She stated, quite plainly, several times, that her justification for the final assault was the "children's welfare." She stated repeatedly that the FBI negotiators had repeatedly sent in video tapes so that the children could be taped to prove they were alright and in good health. Reno then stated that the Davidians had REFUSED to tape the children, and had NEVER provided any proof of the children's welfare, and had NEVER sent out any tapes of the children. She stated that this was a major reason that she decided to approve the final assault. Read that paragraph carefully, slowly. Now, read the following paragraph from the DOJ report titled "Evaluation of the Handling of the Branch Davidian Stand-off in Waco, Texas" published on October 8, 1993. (this is the report with the filename WACO-DOJ.ZIP here): The morning of March 8 three Davidians buried the body of Peter Gent. Later that day Waco Sheriff Jack Harwell was allowed to speak with Koresh as a negotiator. Koresh told the sheriff not to worry because they were not going to commit suicide. He asked for milk and told the sheriff that he had sent out money to pay for those necessities. Shortly after that conversation 6 gallons of milk were sent in. That night the Davidians sent out a videotape of the children in the compound. The negotiator's log shows that when the tape was reviewed there was concern that if the tape were released to the media Koresh would gain much sympathy. [go to March 9 - AT] The Davidians delivered another videotape out of the compound that night. So, in mid-April Reno claims that the Davidians NEVER sent out the videotapes of the children that the FBI negotiators had asked for, yet the DOJ's own reports say that TWO tapes were sent out in March, but that they should be kept from the public because the Davidians would "gain much sympathy" if the tapes were seen. Reno is a liar, and a murderer. * Origin: Gun Control=Criminals & Gestapo vs. the Unarmed. (1:231/110) > cotera@woods.ulowell.edu University of Massachusetts Lowell I was listening to the Tom Donahue show, which was being hosted by Ron Engleman, on 11/4. He revealed some interesting info. on Waco. Derek Lovelock, who is a Branch Davidian that survived the fire, has stated that during the fire he, and many others, tried to escape by exiting the church from the rear (where there were no media cameras), but people were being shot in the head while trying to get out!

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