Subject: Judgment Day for America - July 4th, 1993 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:31:00 GMT A Li

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From: (stephen) Subject: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:31:00 GMT A Living Proof against America is the continuing imprisonment of Livingstone Fagan, who is still being held as a =MATERIAL WITNESS= and has been since March -- it is now July. Fagan is Branch Davidian. Originally he was being held in McLennan County Jail, but has since been moved to the Coryell County Jail in Gatesville Texas. Mr. Fagan is a British citizen. His present address for mail is: Livingstone Fagan 510 Leon Gatesville, Texas 76528 The attendants are not allowed to pass messages to him, nor telegrams, as I was told -- but he can receive mail. But he is allowed to make collect calls between the hours of 8 am - 11 pm. I spoke by phone with British Vice Consul, David Hook, (who's presently in Dallas, though his office is in Houston), and has been up here visiting in the Dallas and Waco area. He saw Livingstone last monday. I had to contact the British Consular Office to find LF since he's not tracked as a prisoner by the Texas Criminal system (after many wasted phonecalls). Mr. Fagan is an eloquent spokesman for the Davidian beliefs, who lost his Wife and Mother in the fire, and his children are being held by Texas Protective Services. He's a gracious man who I myself visited when he was at McLennan county jail on the day before Palm Sunday. We spoke on matters of faith mostly, (he has divinity degrees), but in parting I asked him if there was anything I could do for him. All he asked for at the time was to try to get some unleaven bread for Passover. I contacted the McClennan county Chaplain for assistance in the matter -- the end results of which were fruitless even with the intercession of the local Adventist(!) Pastor, which Fagan had requested. It is my opinion that, Livingstone Fagan is now being held as a *Religious Prisoner* by direction of the US Federal Government, -- because granted his liberty -- he could make clear that the Davidians believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God. So where is the ACLU and other civil rights groups?? And where are the proponents of religious freedom?? Livingstone Fagan while locked up is clear witness against the HYPOCRISY and EVIL of America as it goes fourth in revelry this coming INDEPENDENCE DAY. So much for religious freedom. May Almighty God call forth a True Witness and Righteous Judge to weigh the depths of corruption that this nation has fallen too -- if such be in accord with His justice. This July 4th by rights should be our Nation's Judgment Day, when all the guilty can experience for themselves first hand how quickly Mt. Carmel burned. Please, share this prayer: Lord God Almighty return us to righteousness by thy just chastisements for thy Namesake. Leave not those who you love alone, to stew in the inquity of their own uncaring. Please turn us Lord, from the path of utter destruction, and return us to thy way, O Lord. Thy will be done. (As is my faith, I pray in Christ Jesus' name. Amen.) | "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather -- J -- give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengence | is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19) | stephen (Deut. 32:35-36) (Psalms 94) From: (stephen) Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 07:10:00 GMT In article , (Merlyn LeRoy) writes... > (stephen) writes: >.... >>It is my opinion that, Livingstone Fagan is now being held as a >>*Religious Prisoner* by direction of the US Federal Government, >>-- because granted his liberty -- he could make clear that the >>Davidians believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God. > >This statement is a non-sequitur; Fagan is being held *because* >if he were free he could make clear that the Davidians believe in >Jesus as the son of god? As there are other Branch Davidians >and former BDs available to explain this, I find this a totally ^^^^^^^^^ >unconvincing reason. > >>So where is the ACLU and other civil rights groups?? >>And where are the proponents of religious freedom?? > >Give me some evidence that Fagan is being held because of his >religious beliefs. So far, you've given none. Evidence fooey ML. If I'd wanted to persuade you I would have supported what I stated was my opinion. You decide on your own. Go find out, I gave plenty of contact info. Here's more: Coryell County Sheriff (and jail) (817) 865-7201 for criminal prisoners (817) 865-6663 ("Hughes" branch) Dallas office of the British Consulate (214) 637-3600 As to why Livingstone is being held, doesn't he deserve to be released unless there are charges coming up soon? He's been held in legal limbo for months now -- since March, though "other" witnesses are free and "available." And btw where is "Amnesty International" ?? LF came out of Mt. Carmel Compound after Schroeder -- the first few days after the initial raid, only to be kept in jail, as a witness. It is also my opinion that he's being kept muzzled, much as Koresh was. Strange, why bother? Guess what, Fagan could well be the succesor to Koresh. Is it that something they would say could cause people to change their minds?? What could be so threatening? Haven't they been thoroughly discredited as a demon cult already? But rather than me elaborate -- why don't you just decide for yourself. Send him a letter with your telephone number in it, (if you'll take a collect call). Used to be you could send him a telegram. And it's also smart to send stamps and sase, if you correspond. That is, if God doesn't turn his back and allow evil to firebomb LA or DC first, or something similar... say mebe, "Nuke NY." ("Huh, nahhh, no terrorist would dare attack on the 4th, not on a holiday. No way. We'd stomp their butts. And if we had any idea, what was up, we'd hit 'em hard first. Give 'em 150 missiles this time.) Yet, if such rotten methods are used on innocent "witnesses," makes you wonder what "our" government has been doing to control =enemies=, (punishment, media-access, and propaganda-wise). Now, *IF* I'm anywhere close to right about why Livingstone Fagan is being detained, how's that make you feel about your government?? Gooey, YOU go figure it out. More importantly, my faith is that the only One keeping America from being hammered hard by the wicked of the world is God. I wonder how long God will protect a nation of hypocrites? ('Course I reckon I have some good precedents in The Good Book, to go on.) The continuing imprisonment of Livingstone Fagan is =proof= that our government is still acting wickedly and wrong, just as it did during the `siege' on the Davidians. In America, all you have to do to be locked away is be a "witness." In another tongue, the word is "martyr." | Elijah said, -- J -- "How long will you halt between two opinions? ..." | | stephen (1 Kings 18) From: (stephen) Subject: The Faith of Mt Carmel // re: Jail Mail from Livingstone Fagan Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 20:20:00 GMT [Text of Livingstone Fagan's enclosure in mail to me on 7-13-93 -- Sdt] Since leaving Mt Carmel my most difficult task has been to communicate the position of faith in which I stand. A task David tried so hard to accomplish. This has been overshadowed by concern with the material facts and the bizarre media reporting of Mt Carmel. Ironically a proper understanding of the facts of Mt Carmel is not possible outside an appreciation of the faith we hold. This problem is made further difficult because of a large class of seemingly prejudiced and surprisingly superficial minds. Not to mention fear, and those with vested interest in not knowing the truth. On the face of it, all of this adds up to a difficult and frustrating situation. But not really. I know that deep in the heart of all who witnessed Mt Carmel the flames are still burning. The memory of those consumed lives on. To those of you who seek to know the truth I will try to meet your sincerity. To appropriate our position of faith it is necessary to understand the conceptual frame of reference in which we operate. I have learnt, that this cannot be assumed. The problem therefore rest with bridging our conceptual differences. Let me say once this is accomplished the logic and simplicity of our faith will be seen in its true beauty. The human sensory perceptors are extremely crude as mediums of information gathering. They are limited in space and time, and subject to manipulation. It therefore follows that information derived from the senses must be subject to scrutiny if wrong judgement is to be avoided. This problem is made even more difficult where minds are corrupted by particular prejudices. It is also important to note, that the primary purpose of the senses is to facilitate consciousness of the physical, as opposed to the spiritual, environment we humans operate in. The foundation of our position of faith lies in the domain of the spiritual, albeit with a physical manifestation. This is the subject matter of The Book Sealed with Seven Seals. It brings to view the hitherto un-manifest divine Will. Conceptually this is outside of the frame of references mankind presently operates in. It is perceivable only by the divine process described as the `quickening.' Please see (KJV) John 5:21, 6:63 Ps. 119:37, 40, 50, 149 Eph. 2:1-5 1 and Cor. 15:45. It is from a position of experiencing this process that I speak. We are recipients of the righteousness which comes not by the will and action of man, but of the will and action of God. The human will surrendering to a progressive revelation of the divine will quickens (empowers) man to become a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:1-4). Salvation is simply being saved from human nature, which leads to death. Mankind cannot save himself. Any act on his part flows from his corrupt human nature. His only option is to trust God to do it for him. This, God is faithful and just to do. Do not however expect it to be done according to the perceptions and judgements of man. Very briefly, the knowledge of the Will of God empowering man to be a partaker of the divine nature was not given 2,000 years ago. In rejecting Christ, that knowledge was also rejected. The human race has continued hitherto on the basis of Christ's forgiveness (Luke 23:34). That knowledge which is the Spirit of Christ was, at the Cross, commended into the hand of the Father (Luke 23:46, see also John 6:63, 5:24 and 1 Cor. 2:9-14). In the book of Revelation the apostle John is invited to heaven to behold the Judgement of the end of time (Rev. 4 ff). In Rev. 5, in the right hand of the One [who] sat on the throne is a book sealed with seven seals. This book contains that Spirit, Christ commended into the hand of the Father, in written form. Among other things, the seals reveal the event of Christ's return, just prior to his glorious manifestation (Rev. 1:1, 22:12, cf John 16:12-14). This is in contrast to the mistaken belief that the Seals reveal the history of the Church to the end of time. Through a knowledge of the Seals, the human agent is made able to comprehend the incomprehensible -- God in the flesh! David Koresh showed us the Seals. That which is not lawful for a man to do. In killing Him the details of that knowledge was once again rejected. But not without Witnesses. Moreover, on this occasion the knowledge concerning the Seven Seals being the subject matter of the Judgement, is made available to man. This is extremely serious. The human race can no longer hide under the Law of Forgiveness for his ignorance (Luke 23:34). The Judgement of this World is in process. The next phase is the execution of that Judgement. This has dire consequences for the wicked. It does not end there. Christ's glorious manifestation will not be immediately all consuming. In the establishment of His kingdom on the earth, those deprived of the choice for truth will be afforded opportunity. (Dan. 2:44 Isa. 2:2-4 Zech. 8:20-23, 14 Mic. 4:1-3) Ours is not a Theory of Religion. We lived it, and also died for it. Spirit and Truth have met, and are joined in each other. --- < end forwarded text > -- To respond, send postal mail to: Livingstone Fagan Coryell County Jail 510 Leon St. Gatesville, Tx. 76528 | -- J -- The Word is The Bridegroom and The Comforter is The Bride. | | stephen (John 15 & 16, 1st John 4 & 5, Revelation 19 - 21) From: (Stephen Tice, Arlington, Texas, uXa) Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 06:28:00 GMT In article <>, (Chris Blask) writes... >strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes: >>A silent press, and witnesses held incommunicado >>for months doesn't give me any warm fuzzies. > >By witnesses you mean prisoners? Have you seen a lot of prisoners >interviewed on TV before a trial? Let me make absolutely clear that Livingstone Fagan has been held for 4 months IN TWO DIFFERENT JAILs, IN REGULAR CELLS, for nothing more than being a *WITNESS*. He has not been convicted of anything. He hasn't been charged with anything. When they do free him, they'll likely try to deport him (as has been done with a Davidian who's a Jamaican national) -- and stick him right back in a cell in an INS "facility," (since he's British). Which is hor- rible, since his two children who came out the from Mt. Carmel the first week, as he did, are lost off somewhere in Texas Protective Services. Fagan came out the first week of March, and was never charged with anything, but has been held since as a "material witness." It makes me sick. I couldn't even go back to evening "July 4th" church services last sunday -- cause I found during morning services that I can't bring myself to say the pledge of allegiance any more. My nation has become the evil-enemy that the Soviets were, that I stood against for 11 years while in US military service. Now I understand why the flag-burners burned flags... but I still can't. Cause =America= is all the people who have ever been Americans living and dead, and many if not most of them were good people. And this land is where 8 generations of the bodies of my European ancestors, and much much farther back in my indian roots, are most all buried. I am deeply hurt and ashamed of what it's become though. And heartsick to find that the government has become so wicked, and the people so un- caring. I hope God will open your eyes. The truth of all this is only hidden by a very thin veil -- which any of you could see through -- if you cared. Some have, and to you I'm greatful -- be careful though. I knew something was badly wrong when the federal authorities re-edited the tape Koresh released, putting a part of something he'd said later on the front -- by their own admission. So I got hold of a copy of the tape myself, from the broadcast studios, and made a transcript. Compared it to the transcript published in the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, which was credi- ted to the Associated Press -- I was shocked to find that every few lines of an hour long transcript were badly twisted. WHY??? I myself went down to visit Livingstone Fagan in jail in Waco, on the saturday prior to palm sunday. And found he was being held separate from the rest of the Davidians. Others had been charged, he hadn't. I myself tried to get the Chaplain involved in providing some unleavened bread which Livingstone asked for -- the Chaplain explained he couldn't without going through the federal authorities, and was never able to get him any in. WHY??? I myself tracked down Livingstone after he'd been moved recently, no easy matter. He's not being tracked like all the criminals in the Texas penal system, by number. Eventually I found out from a phone call with the British Vice Consul himself, that Livingstone is now being held down in Gatesville (city), in the Coryell County Sheriff's Office. There are 3 other facilities in Coryell county where convicts are kept -- 2 for federal prisoners. I keep emphasizing "myself," because I'm not going on media reporting. Or what I hear. I've heard all kinds of nonsense spanning the spectrums of paranoia, and entertainment. And plenty to much of "who cares." I tried to point out when I started this thread that, I'm not trying to convince you of anything -- but I am convinced myself -- because I made the effort to find out. And it cost me, much more than money, it cost me my love for *my* country. And I pray to God that he heal my heart... I've kinda gotten used to crying now. Be careful, don't make the effort, if your not able to bear the price. Btw. I've contacted the Ft. Worth ACLU. And been pointed to their board of directors. Tried calling one attorney last week, who's gone this week, but his partner's also on the board. Talked to the partner today, since they don't handle federal matters, he's given me the name of another director who does. I'll call him tomorrow and see if a writ of habeas corpus makes sense, and if he'll submit it. I'll also call the Christian Law Association tomorrow, for the same, which I've held off from till now. Should be interestin' to compare notes. I reckon I might as well get a second opinion. Any more ideas? And please, somebody else, someone with guts -- double check me. The contact info is in the earlier parts of the thread, but it's best to dig it out on your own, I reckon. (Holler otherwise.) | "Our fathers' God, to thee, Author of liberty, -- J -- To Thee I sing: Long may our land be bright | With freedom's holy light; | stephen Protect us by Thy might, Great God, our King!" From: (stephen) Subject: A Letter from Livingstone Fagan // re: Judgment Day for America Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 02:01:00 GMT I'd like to share part of letter Livingstone Fagan sent me. He's writing from Coryell County Jail, on July 7th; I received it today (July 9th)... --- < begin missive > --- Dear Stephen, I received your letter today. It was good to hear from you. My sincere gratitude once again for your continu- ing concern and your practical support. When I was transferred from McLennan County on June 9th they refused to allow me to take any personal items with me. All my contact addresses, etc. were taken from me and have not been returned. [sigh, no doubt, this means his Bible too, again. --Sdt] Still, how are you? There is much I would very much like to share with you and others regarding the Seven Seals. The events at Mt. Carmel and subsequent develop- ments, particularly internationally, has created a much better climate for belief. Until these events came to pass, the prophetic writings have been falling on deaf ears. The few individuals I have been able to speak with are now beginning to perceive astonishing things from the prophetic texts. This generation finds it virtually impossible to believe without seeing. This is indicative of its faithlessness, yet apparent religios- ity. Presently humanity does not even possess the basic concepts of faith upon which perception can take place. This was the environment David was working under, and to some degree remains for many. The communications media is conveying totally false information. It is no wonder why the judgment of so many is incorrect and perverted. I understand much more clearly why the prophets wrote of our time. Had they not done so, no one, I repeat no one, would really know the truth of what is going on. Truly, truly as John the Revelator wrote, the whole world would be deceived into worshipping the dragon (satan) -- Rev. 13. It is only through the eyes of the prophets that the truth of this time can be known. This fact I desire greatly to bring to your attention. My being locked up has proved quite a hindrance. On the subject of my being locked up. I mentioned above that my personal effects were taken from me. I came to Coryell County jail with nothing but my jail clothing. There has been no explanation for this. My material witness status has not been changed. I am not charged, convicted, nor are there any allegations made against me. I was placed in an open cell with indicted and convicted inmates. Since then I have been subject to treatment as if I were a prisoner. My lawyer has made successive appeals to the magistrates regarding the legality of my detention, and the unacceptable condi- tions in which I am being held. These appeals have been met with delay and disappointment. Whilst the condition, of being kept 4 to a cell measur- ing 10 x 12 at McLennan County, has improved somewhat, this has only been replaced with other atrocities. My present cell has an intercom installed enabling the jailer to listen to my conversations at will. Up to recently I had not been given knowledge of jail rules & responsibilities, and act in itself contrary to jail policy. Both my incoming and outgoing mail is being opened and read. I am somewhat concerned whether this letter will reach you. Please, write and confirm. My personal belongings are being withheld. Stephen, what I am saying to you are facts. All the above are con- trary to jail policy, not to mention my constitutional rights. Despite attempts to address these matters nothing has been done. I have been incarcerated for in excess of 100 days, and there does not seem to be and end in sight. It's true when I left Mt. Carmel, David appointed me spokes person for Our faith and philosophy. I too believe the reason I am being detained and my communi- cations monitored is to prevent me from speaking out on the truth of Mt. Carmel. Thus far those I have spoken to are astonished at what is truly going on. There is a definite attempt on the part of the government to silence us and cover up the truth of Mt. Carmel. I have been endowed with a particular responsibility, and given certain freedoms to communicate The Truth regarding Mt. Carmel. Whilst The World continues to absorb the events of Mt. Carmel, they are being pre- pared for an unmistakable Revelation yet to come. The deception presently enshrouding humanity will be lift- ed. Without controversy, we know what is happening. The peoples of The World will be furious when they find out! The times we are in are increasingly serious. Unfortu- nately, so many remain blind and asleep to what's going on. Indeed much is being done in The Communication Media to keep them that way. Without doubt everything truly pertaining to Mt. Carmel has its place in the plans and purposes of God for This World. Without a knowledge of The Seven Seals it is impossible for the human mind to even begin to grasp these truths. Besides those of us who remain from Mt. Carmel, the world is ignorant of these truths of the Seven Seals and the significance of Mt. Carmel. There are many things pertaining to this existing earthly reality the truth of which can only be seen in light of the Seven Seals. I know not what this System is planning for me, or how long it intends to hold me like this. I am however aware of God's plans for me, and indeed for this Sys- tem. There is but a short time left. My God's method of teaching me patience, I conclude to be perfect. I have been able to enjoy many long hours of illuminating meditation. Living the truths of what I believe in has been a unique and incredible experience. I know under- stand from both sides what it means to be "written in the book." This experience of being a partaker of the divine nature is beyond human learning, and incommuni- cable by conventional human means of perception. I appreciate more clearly why salvation has to be an individual thing. It's an experience, not a theory. regards Livingstone ps. write soon --- < so ends Livingstone's letter > --- His gulag address remains: Livingstone Fagan 510 Leon St. Gatesville, Tx 76528 I'll say more in another posting, but to close, permit me to bring to your attention a few messages from Scripture -- for those who have eyes to see: Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. (Leviticus 23:27-28) Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. (Leviticus 25:9) For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins be- fore the LORD. (Leviticus 16:30) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemp- tion for us. (Hebrews 9:11-12) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:9) | "Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee... -- J -- Could my tears for ever flow, Could my zeal no langour know, | These for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone: | stephen In my hand no price I bring, Simply to Thy cross I cling. Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee." From: ( AARC SFA State Univ.) Subject: Another letter from Livingstone Fagan Date: 10 Jul 93 20:08:35 CST After Stephen's post several days ago about the gross mistreatment of Livingstone Fagan, I wrote Fagan a letter at the address provided by Stephen, namely: Mr. Livingstone Fagan 510 Leon Gatesville, Texas 76528 Today I received a reply from Livingstone. He confirmed everything Stephen has been saying and more. I am posting Livingstone's reply to my letter in its entirety, being assured that the 'authorities' have already read it as stated by Livingstone and as confirmed by the scotch tape on the seal to which he probably would not have had access. In my letter to Fagan I enclosed a self-addressed stamped envelope and urged that he return it with or without enclosed message to assure me of receipt of my letter. Remember, Fagan is not free to make his own statement to the world. Remember, he is only a 'material witness', held without bail for over 100 days with no charges against him. Livingstone Fagan's Cry of the Heart: ------------ 7/7/93 Dear Mr. Gaut I received your letter this morning. Let me first say how comforting it was to hear from you. Sadly very few Americans appear to be aware, or concerned about those noble principles upon which this once great nation was founded. Although I am not an American citizen I must acknowledge, it was while in America I came to appreciate the true meaning of Liberty as a principle. I have since learnt that, in practice this nation no longer lives up to the principles it professes. The events at Mt. Carmel and my subsequent unlawful detention bear testimony to a most distressing state of affairs for the world. My greatest concern is that so many look to this nation for leaderhsip. Their trust is greatly betrayed and abused, and has been for so long. One had to literally experience this situation to know the real truth. Liberty is indeed the outpouring of life. To be denied it, is to be denied life itself. If there was ever a cause worth fighting for this is it. That very substance called life is intimately connected with the pursuit of truth and conscience. Mt. Carmel was about the pursuit of truth and conscience as it is in God. Inspite of what is propagandized about us, in death and imprisonment our consciences remain free. We made a choice for truth, and we placed it above temporal existence. My heart is moved with tears of restrained joy. The result of having been shattered and torn by the experience of the grave injustice practiced against us. Joe, it may not be apparent to you, but believe me, through us God spoke to the world. The essence of this truth is the subject matter of the seven seals. This is what Mt. Carmel was truly about, and what the authorities fear the public becoming aware of. As a spokesperson for our faith, which incidentally is so thoroughly based in scripture it's uncanny, I am being prevented from speaking much as David was. The medium of ink on paper, and the use of telephone are far too restrictive to communicate the essence of the seven seals. I sit sometimes in dispair at what is being denied to the American people, and indeed to the world. We have been given something very special. Something so special it is worth sacrificing anything for. In spite of the loss of my wife, and my mother. Also my children being taken from me I hold no hate, or anger against those who persecute us. The memory of those who I love engender concern for the soul salvation of those responsible. If they would but consider the seven seals. Presently I am classified a 'material witness.' I have been detained as such for over 100 days now, with no end in sight. The conditions of my incarceration are no different to any other person convicted, indicted, or charged with a crime. Whilst at McLennan County jail for the longest while, I was locked up in a 10 x 12 room 24 hours a day, 7 days a week with three other adults. This was in maximum security. Our only real comfort was we shared the same status. My present condition has improved with respect to space. Never- theless my communication is severely monitored. Incoming and outgoing mail is opened and read. I have an intercom system in my cell. For the longest while I was denied access to a copy of the jail policy statement. On two occasions I have been denied counsel, awaiting approval from the U.S. Marshalls' Office. My access to relatives abroad has been severely restrited. The list goes on. My consolation is in the faith I hold. The power of the seven seals has proven to me its capacity to endure whatever hunanity throws at it. Let me further say Joe, you will find our beliefs are not as dissimilar as you might think. Certainly our understanding of the basic rights from God appear to be in harmony. There is so much more. Once again my appreciation for your concern and practical support. Please write to confirm receipt of this letter. Regards Livingstone From: B645ZAW@UTARLG.UTA.EDU (STEPHEN TICE) Subject: Livingstone Charged Today (7-16) -- 4 months after being jailed Date: 16 Jul 1993 16:54:11 -0500 Having tried to post this several times via news, without success, (there seems to be a problem with the local system), I'm sending it by alt-route. Please, repost for me on appropriate newsgroups, and elsewhere. Thanks -- Sdt --- I just spoke with Livingstone Fagan's attorney in Waco, who told me that he was charged today (7-16) with Con- spiracy to Commit Murder, and Possesion of a Fire Arm. Let me make it clear. Livingstone came out of Mt Carmel in mid-march, and has been held through april, may, june, and to the middle of july -- without being charged -- *till now*. He's in McLennan County Jail again, until they decide where to stick him next. He can still receive mail wherever they put him, but you'd best send paper and an self-addressed stamped envelope if you want to correspond. The McLennan County address is: McLennan County Jail 510 Columbus Waco, Tx 76701 Haven't a clue where they'll stick him next, but no doubt they'll take their time about it. For those who care, please, send him a short postcard for encouragement. I myself believe Livingstone Fagan is a religious prisoner, who is being made an example of -- as a warning to all those who do not bow down to the system. Please pray for him, that God grant him forbearance. And pray for those who know righteous hate, that God fill their vision with glory and love, and patience enough to await the direction of our Lord, Jesus Christ. | "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but -- J -- rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, | Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." | stephen "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12, note verse 9, cp. Psalms 139, note v.22) From: (stephen) Subject: Government Harassment // re: Livingstone Charged Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 06:19:00 GMT Here's an update. Livingstone called me tonite, and let me know that the hearing continues monday. Seems the Judge hasn't bought the STORY that "someone (un-named) supposedly saw LF with a gun shooting at BATF troops from what used to be the Mt. Carmel center tower," (which is now the basic accusation being levied by the govern- ment prosecutors -- 4 months after jailing him as a witness). So he's definitely at McLennan County Jail through Monday. It reminds me of when they charged the 77 and 75 year old ladies who came out of Mt. Carmel with conspiracy, later dropped. Is this part of what federal prosecutors are paid to do -- harassment??? If so, it sure explains why some lawyers are such a pain in the ass, along with bill collectors, and some lobbyists and activists. Considering the floodlights and noriega-noise type psy-ops used on all the Davidians, I wonder how much harassment the "negotiators" heaped on Koresh and Schneider through the phone?? And while I can stand Gays using "In Your Face Tactics," Operation Rescue "Publicity Stunts," the Klan "Burning Crosses," and even war protestors "Burning the Flag" (in the interest of freedom of speech), I think the IRS, BATF, FBI, or even the local police using the same methods against civilians -- in the paid performance of their duties -- is pure BULL SHIT! Especially, when it goes on to physical methods such as being confined, or constraining access. From the beginning, Waco has been an exercise in Government Harassment -- against folks on the fringe. Which would all unravel if the larger public realized that anyone who's not "pro-government" is on the fringe -- in the eyes of the feds. The big problem is that harassment is risky, and when mistakes are made, harassment too easily becomes persecution, injury, or manslaughter. And were it not that some people are justed twisted or wicked -- which is why we have law-enforcement anyway -- I'd be ready to believe Waco was just a mistake. But there are good people everywhere, and evil -- even in government. Harassment is bad enough, but if crimes were committed by the BATF, FBI, or even the Justice Department -- who would bring justice now?? | -- J -- "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape | the damnation of hell? (Jesus, Matthew 23:33, note context) | stephen From: (stephen) Subject: Re: Government Harassment // re: Livingstone Charged Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 06:01:00 GMT In article , (Bob Zwarick) writes... >In article <> > (stephen)... >>Livingstone called me tonite, and let me know that the hearing >>continues monday. Seems the Judge hasn't bought the STORY that >>"someone (un-named) supposedly saw LF with a gun shooting at >>BATF troops from what used to be the Mt. Carmel center tower... While talking with him on the phone, I also confirmed that he came out of Mt. Carmel on the 23rd of March. So that's 118 days to date locked up in jail -- 1st as a witness, then as an illegal alien, and now they're trying to accuse him of conspiracy. >>From the beginning, Waco has been an exercise in Government Harassment >>-- against folks on the fringe. Which would all unravel if the larger >>public realized that anyone who's not "pro-government" is on the fringe >>-- in the eyes of the feds. I can't overemphasize how risky it is to harass anyone anytime because of the likelyhood of mistakes. It certainly should *not* be the practice of government law enforcement. And it's worse when the victim hasn't been even been convicted of a crime. =But= it's pure outright *evil* when such methods are used on innocent children, mothers and fathers. Remember the storm troopers, the phones being isolated, water/electricity /sewage cut, childrens' bicycles and atv's crushed, incoming radio/tv broad- casts jammed, search lights on all night, sadistic-noise blaring out, mock raids, snipers, tear-gas, building knocked down, fire. Why should I believe that similar methods were not being used by the negotiators? The harassment escalated a step at a time to outright attrocity -- a step at a time -- at best because of mistakes. Similarly, locking up witnesses in jail for months, while treating them like criminals, depriving them of personal effects, moving them from prison to prison, and who knows what else, is exactly the same sick twisted logic as physical harassment. Not burying their dead is also the same. If they had any property or financial resources left -- no doubt these would be confiscated, impounded, or seized (as evidence). Others of the "surviors" including Sheila Martin, widow of attorney Wayne Martin, who not only lost her husband and two of her children in the inferno, but now is having to go through custody hearings to get her remaining children back. What has and is being done to the innocents of Mt Carmel by the authori- ties is simply perverse. The message is clear: "If you don't kowtow, it will be you next." The People of Mt Carmel were sacrificed as a warning -- loud and clear. >>And while I can stand Gays using "In Your Face Tactics," Operation >>Rescue "Publicity Stunts," the Klan "Burning Crosses," and even war >>protestors "Burning the Flag" (in the interest of freedom of speech), >>I think the IRS, BATF, FBI, or even the local police using the same >>methods against folks -- in the paid performance of their duties -- >>is pure BULL SHIT! >>Harassment is bad enough, but if crimes were committed by the BATF, >>FBI, or even the Justice Department -- who would bring justice now?? Neither the bureacracy nor the administration can afford the bad press in a spending sense. How tempting it must be to cover-up, bull-doze, tear-down, stall, and gradually inch over that fine-line between "CYA" and "SRC" stinkin-rotten-crime. Too bad "investigative reporting" is a movie myth. All this has shown pretty clearly that the press is pro-system too. >Though I stand pretty far from the Davidian belief structure, I cannot >in all good consciousness condone the actions of the BATF, Justice >Dept et al. I cannot understand the lack of concern by the public. >Bob Zwarick If I weren't a follower of Christ, in the hopes that some of those who caused this horrible attrocity would repent and do right, then the pic- tures we all have seen of the mushroom clouds of a fusion-bomb explo- sion would quite well depict my personal rage. Nothing I can imagine though could come close to being one fo the guilty standing before the JUDGE of ALL JUDGES -- when the 7 Thunders Sound. | -- J -- See Revelation Chapter 10 | | stephen From: (stephen) Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 1 of 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:41:00 GMT Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone Fagan from last Saturday evening, July 24th. LF is the spokesman David Koresh appointed to explain their faith to the public. As best I can tell, He is being held in jail by the federal authorities as a religious prisoner, and an example to others of the harassment and violence which will be used against those who don't bow down to the system. --- Beginning of Part 1 of 3 --- l: Mt Carmel is a situation right now where, we're not effectively here to call people to accept the truth which we possess. We're here to call people to make a decision. s: ok l: There's been a lot sensationalizing, and distorting the story about Mt Carmel. In a sense that's good, because it will capture the insincere in their own craftiness, which allows people to come to a decision. Which is just my point -- about .... s: May I point out something? l: Go ahead. s: It's very obvious to me when they [the authorities] bull-doze, burn, propagandize, and cover-up an issue -- it's being obscured -- it's being "fuzzied-up." l: Precisely. But at the same time, that you are able to... ahmm, see through all of that, and realize what the government is doing... there is a large class of personalities who don't want to know. s: That's right. l: In fact, irrespective of what God would do, to bring those individu- als, individual minds, to a knowledge of The Truth, they would still resist it, because they feel that -- "by remaining in an indecisive position... ahmm, they will hold God in a position where The World can not come to a conclusion, because God can not judge without people making a decision." They *must* be in a decisive position. s: ok l: So, ahmm... they will make a decision, whether they know it or not against Mt Carmel, because of the distortion and the sensationalized reporting. That has been a very prominent observation. s: Yes, in everybody I've encountered. l: That's right. So, ahh... the reporting itself is very much a part of the process -- the decision making process. Even though it's distorted, it's not something that will ultimately stop, if you understand my meaning. s: ok l:That's not to say I have no sympathy for people. But if individuals are not prepared to have sympathy for themselves, then it creates a rather difficult situation. s: Ok. Speak slowly and clearly please. l: Yes. It creates a rather difficult situation. So at this point, ahmm, decisions are being made, either for or against the truth that Mt Carmel *represents*. Of course, *we* have to experience the situation that we are experi- encing at present... s: Yes, I understand. l: ...which is not in itself intolerable. It's bearable, since we are seeing it in the light of the greater purposes of God, so that maybe you can understand and endure the process. Ahh, but what I desire for individuals who are sincere... (And I have received letters from many. I mean only this morning a person wrote to me expressing concern, ahmm, encouragement, and ahh, personal support. Which I found to be extremely, ahm, how shall I say... soothing.) s: Yeah, I'm sure. It's nice to get the feedback. l: That's right! s: But, at the same time I feel there's a strong desire to have a speeding up the process. So for their welfare, I've taken the opportu- nity to contact particular individuals of this group, in order to... to try and explain, and highlight the fact, that we have a genuine theolog- ical foundation for the position we hold. Ahm, I am naturally limited; rather, we are naturally limited, as far as we can go with that. Not that God is depending upon this in order to accomplish His purpose. I think, the world-wide media coverage of Mt Carmel has already accomplished that. It's just a matter of waiting for people to be fully decided in their own minds. s: ok l: So this is what we are dealing with at this time. The opportunity you afford me, to actually communicate over the fax and the computer net- works, ahm, some items of doctrine, like the last article I wrote, and there are some letters I have, that I would like to present to you... s: ok l: ...which may well benefit the sincere. Because, quite frankly I can only see that it's the sincere that would be operating along the lines that you're working along. You follow? s: Yes. You know why? The rest are hard-hearted, hard-headed... l: Precisely. s: ...and jaded... l: Exactly. s: The Apocalypse would not have been put in the language that it was put in... l: Uh huh. s: ...or it wouldn't be played out in the events it's going to be played out in, if it weren't for the fact that's what's going to have to happen, to get through to a lot of people. l: Ah, it's a sad situation. I wish it were not this way. s: And by the way it's something that comes from people having free will. l: And, nobody really, not even God can effectively overrun that. s: Nor *will* overrun it anyway... l: Exactly. s: in the Promises of God. Go ahead. l: So eventually what we're going to see is that in the conclusion, *everyone* will acknowledge God's justice. s: We can cite Scripture, sure -- "Every knee shall bow," [Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10]. l: Right. So at this present moment in time, the issues as they relate to the process of salvation, has been clearly prevented. s: The "what" of salvation? l: The process. s: The process, go ahead. l: Ahmm, there is another area I would like to direct the attention of a lot of... or at least those individuals I have the opportunity to communicate with, and that's to deal with the issue of "present truth." I don't know whether you've had the opportunity to read an article by a guy called, Richard K. Hoskins, of "The Hoskins Report?" s: No. l: It would be very useful if you could, because I think he's done a very, very good job of "capturing" the psychological warfare that the United States government practiced upon us. And has been practicing through the medium of communications, the *public* medium of communica- tions, for at least the last 75 to 80 years. s: ok l: It's an extremely interesting article. It's entitled, "Chairman Mao and the Massacre in Waco," published on May 3rd, 1993. As I say, the editor's name is Richard Kelly Hoskins. s: Where was it published? l: Essentially it's his own publication, I haven't actually got it... give me a moment and I'll get you his address. s: I can probably find the publication from my... l: Right, he's the editor, it's called "The Hoskins Report." And the issue is May 3rd, 1993. I think it's number 224. s: ok l: There's another publication as well, by ahh, Project 93. I don't know if you've every come across that yet? s: Uhh, vaguely, go ahead. l: Well, what's so interesting about Project 93 is an article entitled "... ever wondered" (???), actually it's a booklet, and it's entitled, "Ever Wondered Why?" s: "As I wondered why" ?? l: "Ever Wondered Why?" s: "Ever Wondered Why?" l: Yeah and it covers developments in the financial arena as they relate to the United States, in it's alliance with the United Nations. It brings to view a very, very important development that's taking place at this moment, which correlates to events spoken of by the prophet, in Revelation 13 through chapter 17. I make reference to this simply because of the fact of ahmm, as I mentioned, the fact of Present Truth, which identifies where we are along the process of salvation. I find that this book by, ahm, Project 93, actually affords a beautiful grasp of the conceptual... the con- cepts... the conceptual background to understand those texts in Revela- tion 13 and 17. s: 13 & 17 ?? l: That's right. s: ok l: Which refers to, in chapter 17, remember the ahmm, 7th and 8th ahh, beast? [see Rev. 17:11] And in Revelation chapter 13 the two horned breast, and the image to the beast that was created? s: But you mentioned the 7th and the 8th beasts? l: That's right, in revelation chapter 17. s: ok l: Those issues are to do with Present Truth, and I would like to have been able to get in more depth into some of the symbolic language, which prior to my leaving Mt Carmel on March 23rd, I had spent some time with David, discussing. s: ok l: And I can see the reasons why, even more clearly now, as I see the developments taking place, in the international arena. s: Say again that last part. l: Yes. As I see the developments currently taking place in the interna- tional arena. s: In the international arena. l: I would like to be able to discuss those with you in detail. Ah, one of the things I want is that ah, the terms be accurate, but even in context it does not necessarily communicate the spirit behind the words that are written. s: Let's talk about that. l: That is very important. That is, it's because of The Spirit, that is through The Spirit, that one receives context the context, for what is written. You follow? s: Receives the context? l: Yeah. The Spirit illuminates the written word. And when I write a book, or when I write an article -- a person reads that in light of their own understanding. Do you follow? s: Yes. l: It is very difficult to try and separate one's own perceptions, and to try and grasp the perceptions and meanings behind the words, senten- ces and paragraphs, of the letter. Unfortunately it is very difficult to bridge that. There is that limitation in language, that makes it so dif- ficult to address that. s: That's because you can't speak with what we have available to us, which is the indwelling Spirit. [cf. John 16:13] l: Exactly. s: The requirement there is for The Groom, (The Husband), to do the speaking. l: Exactly. How does one deal with that? I really don't know other than direct... direct communication. As you can see, my present situation prevents that. So, the articles I write, the information that I transmit, is as limited as possible, yet is ahmm, I was going to say "as potent as possible," but that's very difficult to assess. s: Yes. l: So, what I hope is that (as I continue to write articles), my hope is that people will continue to respond with any question they feel may arise from those articles, and I can try it by first of all understand- ing the premise that they're coming from. PLEASE NOTE: Please, use the postal services, and I suggest short one page letters with sase included, or a phone number for a collect call. Livingstone is pre- sently imprisoned at McLennan County Jail, 510 Columbus, Waco, Tx. 76701 s: Livingstone, it would help to start out with the ah, simple "yes/no" [questions], that nobody seems willing to approach you with, for in- stance [concerning] the ah, what first and foremost must be on a lot of people's minds is: "Who is Jesus Christ to you?", "Was David Koresh the Messiah?" These types of questions. l: Alright. s: That is the way to catch their attention. l: Ok, I understand that, ah, that concept. The thing is,that even that presents it's own problems. Let me try to address that question that you ask as a ahm... means of identifying some of the problems. David Koresh being Christ. The first question I would be forced to ask you is what is your understanding of Christ? s: My understanding of Christ is the physical manifestation of God. l: Right, indeed that's true, God in the flesh. Ok. The physical mani- festation -- God in the Flesh. Part of that concept is of the Melchize- dek priesthood, that ahm, Paul sought to address, in the Hebrews. s: Yes. [Heb. 5-7] l: Which Psalms 110 develops. [and Genesis 14:18] s: Psalms 110, you say? l: 110 right. Which goes back to the time of Abraham. s: ok l: 2000 years ago there was also a manifestation of that same priesthood when Christ came into the earth. But as John the apostle pointed out, it was impossible for the darkened human mind to *comprehend* [cf. John 1:5] this reality, because Christ is really a principle, The Word of God, or God's thoughts expressed. s: Yes! l: And the problem here is that humanity, in it's dullness of percep- tion, finds it extremely difficult to appreciate or comprehend that. And that was demonstrated 2000 years ago which resulted in his death, which from my premise, having been a recipient of the knowledge contained in the 7-SEALS, I conclude the same thing occurred at Mt Carmel. So, when faced with an issue in respect to that question, I can only address it from the premise from which you come from. I can present something... s: Then let me help. l: Go ahead. s: In the sense, we know that from Revelation 19, that "The Marriage Supper of the Lamb" is referred to. The question is, "Who is being married?" We know in Revelation 19 that The Word of God is The Lamb. l: Precisely. s: So, who's the Church? The Church appears in Revelation 12. In other places in the New Testament, we know that the Church is made up of the Body of believers. Now here's a mystery -- the Head of the Church is Christ... l: Uh huh. s: ...however, Christ is also the First Born of that union. That union is between The Word and The Spirit, (elsewhere called The Comforter). l: Right. s: Now we are given in Acts, The Spirit, to indwell, as a gift, if we ask, by God. And it comes to us as "The Nurturer." l: Ok, ok. Let me hold that, let me hold that point. Let's develop that. s: Go for it. l: We are given that indwelling Spirit if we ask for it, ok. What is your perception of that indwelling Spirit in terms of, "when you ask for it." Most people identify it as some kind of feeling. s: Most do. They expect to get the tingles, or the shivers, or some sort of high. l: Exactly. But the truth about it is, that spirit was the Spirit that motivated Christ when he was upon the earth 2000 years ago. s: That spirit is... ?? l: The Spirit that was in the flesh 2000 years ago. s: ok l: Now that Spirit, in Luke chapter 23, when Christ was crucified, that Spirit was *commended* into the hands of The Father. [Luke 23:46] You follow? s: Yes! Into The Word. l: Into the... right. So, in Revelation chapter 4, when John gets taken to heaven... yes? He goes to heaven, a door is opened, he sees a judgement. He sees One who sat on the Throne. Now, the one that sat on the throne is surrounded by 24 elders. Now, in chapter 5 it highlights that in the right hand of the One who sat on the Throne -- is The Book -- sealed with 7 seals. This correlates with Luke when he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." Telephone company recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING." [Though LF calls me collect, the calls time out after 30 minutes --Sdt] s: You wanta call back? l: Yes. So, what we have there was that, that Spirit, which Christ sought to express -- which was rejected -- was commended into the hands of The Father. And then you go up to the [tape garbled, sounds like "sentry"] as John did, we see on the right hand -- the Book, Sealed with Seven Seals. So that Spirit is now written. Do you follow? s: The Spirit is now embodied in writing? l: Right. In written form -- The Book. s: The question is, "What is The Book?" Is it The Book of Life? l: [both talking, tape garbled] l: In Revelation 22, after The Lamb in chapter 6, begins to loose The Seals, it states that He's going to come to earth with that Book, sealed with 7 seals. That's His reward... s: ok l: give to every man. This is where Mt Carmel came in, in that David Koresh was teaching the book. The question is, "What is the Book?" Well, in Revelation chapter ahh.... From: (stephen) Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 2 of 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:44:00 GMT Transcript of phone conversation between myself, and Livingstone Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th. --- Beginning of Part 2 of 3 --- s: ...Operator I accept the charges. Yes, I'm here Livingstone. l: Right. We're dealing with The Book. When Christ came 2000 years ago, that Spirit of God, which is really the expressed thought of God in the flesh, was made available to mankind in a flesh form, something they can identify with. When Christ was killed that Spirit was commended into the hands of The Father. John looked up to see the judgement, and saw in the hand of The Father, a Book, sealed with 7 seals. In Revelation 22, He's to return again, with the intention of commu- nicating the contents of that Spirit. Now that Spirit is Life -- Eternal Life. That's what they rejected at The Cross. Now, the thing about it is, that the issue is, "What is that Book?" Well the whole scene of Christ's returning is depicted in summary form in Revelation, chapter 10-11. s: Summary form? l: In summary form, yes. The actual details of it, is the subject matter of the 7 Seals, but it's summarized in those 2 chapters, 10 and 11, of Revelation. You see an Angel, a strong Angel, that comes to the earth, with a Book -- opened. That's of course, the Book that was in the hand of The Father, in Revelation chapter 5. Now, in the 7th verse, ahmm, it is stated clearly that the voice of the 7th angel, when He shall begin to sound, the mystery of God, which is the content of the 7-Seals. And note the statement, "the mystery of God." Everybody seeks to know God, but the mystery is contained in the 7-Seals. The mystery of what God really is. That is the essential knowledge that is missing from humani- ty. Now, as I stated, the voice of the 7th Angel, when He begins to sound, the mystery of God will be *finished*... s: Yes. I recall. l: He hath declared, to his servants, The Prophets. Do you follow? s: I understand. l: Now the content of that Book was already declared to The Prophets. The 7-Seals, if you go back to the summary that is given of the Seals, as the Lamb opens them in chapter 6 onwards; you will see certain information. Now, as I mentioned before to you, people have sought to interpret that information. Do you follow? s: With their human understanding... l: Exactly. s: ...rather than with the Mind of God, which is Scripture. l: Precisely. Yes, you got the point. The fact is that only One can open that information in the first place. The Lamb, yes?? Mankind can not do it, because you're dealing with information which is synonymous with the Mind of God. Now can the human mind comprehend the things of God? Being in it's humanity, it's impossible. Therefore it has to be revealed to him. Hence, the only way it can be done is for Christ, or rather Christ being The Word, the expressed thoughts of God, to come into the realm of humanity. s: Now let me... let me, I don't want to throw you off, but I do want to ask two very important questions. l: Go ahead. s: When Christ... when Jesus came, Jesus, as it was written -- He made that reference very, very often -- "as it is written"... l: Precisely. s: He knew from early on, from a very young time -- The Scriptures... l: Precisely. s: ...very well. The Word indwelled Him. l: Precisely, yes. s: And, this is a lesson. The lesson we find that also happened to Koresh. The parallel is there. The Word working in Koresh... l: Exactly! As you're bringing it up, you're bringing it out. Christ could only quote Scripture 2000 years ago. And a lot of the Scriptures have to be received purely by faith, even though at the time, they did not meet the perceptions of the human mind. Because, really they were written from the premise of the eternal mind. You follow? s: Oh, yes! l: So humanity can not of itself comprehend them. What humanity does is to receive The Scripture by faith. Having, receiving...In the process of receiving a progressive knowledge of the Revealed Truth, declared as Scriptural -- the human mind will be elevated to the place where it can comprehend *over time* that information. s: Yes. There's a gestation period. l: Precisely. Humanity has actually been taken out of it's *human* thinking, and elevated to the divine thinking, which is what 2nd Peter talks about in 1-4. Through the knowledge of God... s: You say in 2nd Peter 1... l: 2nd Peter chapter 1 verses 1-4. s: ok [The Promises of God] l: Through the knowledge of God, as revealed in the Scriptures, humanity becomes a partaker of the divine nature. What a person thinks -- is what he is. s: Ok, I hear that. Now, I'm wondering this, ok? l: Go ahead. s: It's clear to me that there is a marriage. l: Right. s: In The Marriage of The Lamb... l: Ok. s: ... here the Bride comes. Now to me, (this may be my mind), in other words I may be reading into it, or I may be inspired in this, I don't know. But as best I can tell, The Marriage of The Word, The Marriage of The Lamb (same entity) -- with The Spirit, The Bride, which is The Comforter -- is accomplished in each one of us. l: Right. As you received, *received* that Spirit. Let me go back to show you where the basis of that concept of the marriage comes from. s: ok l: It goes back to the book of Genesis. When God created Adam, Adam was a lifeless form, alright? s: Yes, clay! Dust of the earth. l: Exactly. What gave him life, was when the Breath of God, entered him. That breath joined with the clay -- in the actual marriage -- the prin- ciple. You follow? s: ok l: Now...ahm, The Breath itself, or The Light, (which is what John is referring to in John chapter 1), the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world, is to have an expression. It's not just light as we see light. There is detail to it. There is form, feature. There is ah, how can I explain it? It has a definition; it has meaning, it has expression, it's got autonomy. Do you understand what I'm talking about? s: I think I do. I would not have put it only in terms of light, which is a type of signal... l: Uh huh. s: ...but the word, which is also a type of signal. For instance, when some very powerful statement is made, such as "Love your enemies"... Ok? l: Uh huh. s: And that thought, that word, that signal, orders, I mean structures, how people act. l: Exactly. s: It structures matter itself. l: Precisely. s: Without that ordering we'd be just like the Moon... l: Ok. s: ...pure dust. l: Ok. So you can see that the Word expressed has ahmm -- creative po- tential. It has ahhh, I'm still struggling to find a word to express... Well if you look at humanity, as separate from divinity, (because really, what humanity fails to appreciate at any given time is that there is an element of divinity in it)... s: That's right. l: ... it's just that -- it's been *blocked*. It's not allowed to take expression, or give expression within the human personage. Had it been allowed to do so, then humanity would conform to it. s: "Conform" is a very telling word there. l: Oh, . When I say conform, the reason why it is not allowed in humanity en masse to give general expression, is because of the human free will. s: Exactly. l: The Mind of God, or The Will of God, is expressed in that word. Human beings have the freedom to actually allow or surrender it's will, to the divine will, or they can continue in the light of their own understand- ing, which is really darkness. It extends purely from the clay. s: It extends from the...? l: The clay. The body, the lusts of the body. Most of the reasoning, most of the constructions and institutions established by man, are not in themselves possessed of anything divine. They are basically based upon the lusts of man; like for example, there are 3 major ones: food, reproduction and [maintaining] life. Most of the institutions that exist in society are based purely upon these 3 lusts. s: Yes, very much so. But this then is what we expect of an organism with a 5 pound brain -- 5 pounds of meat. l: Right, exactly. Exactly. But there is a divine... the ability for a divine element within humanity. Unfortunately in this day and age, with its degeneracy, debaseness, that element has been blocked, (and it's unable to give expression to itself), somehow internally, from within man. And it's for that reason as it is now, there was a necessity for it to come on the outside. Do you follow? s: Yes, as a leadership principle. l: Precisely. To draw men to a knowledge of that which is within. That's why Christ kept on saying, "The Kingdom of God is within you." And He was trying to bring it out, to bring man to an appreciation of that principle. The fact is, to be quite frank -- God is thought! s: Ok. You say, "God is thought?" l: Thought! And the expression of that thought is THE WORD, which is Christ. s: ok l: And the manifestation of, the embodiment of, thought expressed -- is man. s: ok l: So for man to throw out God, is really actually dishonoring himself. In the process, you can see, you'd become debased, degenerate to the level of beasts, which is really what we have today. s: Yes! No Spirit indwelling. l: That's right! s: Like a machine, there's nothing there. l: Exactly. s: Like a whore, there's nobody home. l: Right. s: Like a mercenary, who do things just for the external... l: Exactly. s: ok l: And until the Thoughts of God, once again re-establish in man those Thoughts, (and those Thoughts are written in The Book, sealed with 7- Seals)... until those Thoughts are re-established then man does not have God within him. All he has is the potential... s: ok l: ... to have God. Now, that's what the 7-Seals were designed to address. That's what that Spirit that Christ was trying to give 2000 years ago, which was rejected... and bear in mind in Luke 23, I think verse 34, "Father, forgive them; for they *know* not what they do." They're in a state of ignorance. s: Yes. l: And until they receive that Spirit which was commended in the hand of the Father, they can not have that element of God within them, which become the directing principle of humanity. So, then what happens is you begin to have external government. All men were supposed to be governed from within -- they were their own kings and priests, but now we have an external form of government, like what you can see in the United States probably, and what is devel- oping on an international scale, via the United Nations, is oppressive. And there is no way to stop that. Not until that Spirit, which is what God is, that Thought, enters humanity. But the current thinking of man, which is born of the flesh is temporal, and when the body dies it will die too. But the eternal Thought of God (which is the Spirit which Christ sought to give, which is placed in the hand of The Father in the form of The Book Sealed With 7-Seals) is eternal. To receive God you are actually receiving The Eternal, an eternal spirit which enables you to live forever. The problem here is that uhm, rather not the problem, but whether someone can be saying[?] that more closely, ahh, the life substance of humanity is actually the thought of God, in man. It's your thought that gives you motivation, your life-substance. It is your thought, rather the more thought you have, the more life you have. You follow? s: So far, so good. I'm curious about, I know that in a union, in a marriage union... l: Uh huh. s: ... the same flesh must join, ok? l: Right. s: So, I'm comfortable with the... l: Let me try to address that point. s: ok l: The spirit that is in man, is that which is separate from the Spirit of God, God's Spirit. And it's born... the human spirit is born, as I mentioned, of the lusts of man, and is essentially a homosexual spirit. Do you follow what I'm saying? It's of itself. s: It's of self, yes. l: That's right it's homosexual. s: Yes, it's for-self, of-self, yes. l: Ahh, what you might have had a tendency to do, is uhhh... you see that selfishness expressed in man, and everything that is consumed on this earth (even other people) is consumed for the purpose of self. Now, the Spirit of God in man predominating (which is really the Will of God) -- facilitates trust, and all those other positive virtues (above all *selflessness*, as was demonstrated on the Cross and also here) as demonstrated here at Mt Carmel, (where the people were prepared to surrender their existence for the Truth which they hold), -- is that Spirit which is associated with God as a Thought, guiding their thoughts. s: The world will ask do you mean suicide? l: Well, we've got to go back to Christ. I can address that simply by saying *no*, it was not suicide. But I'd like you to see it in the context of Christ 2000 years ago. Now Christ knew that His course of action was eventually going to end up with him being killed, in some way, shape or form. Because the capi- tal form of punishment at that time was the Cross, it was the inevitable one that was going to be chosen. Can you see that? s: Yes. l: Would you conclude from that, that Christ was the harbinger of his own suicide? s: If He knew full well that if He continued in the path He was in, yes, it would result in His... l: His death. s: Yes, His death. l: Do you conclude that His was a suicide from that situation? s: You understand the world want's to see it as a suicide because that's a "self-motive"?! l: Precisely. And that's what they should have concluded about Christ 2000 years ago, yes?? From the same premise. Well, the truth about it is that I know that the sincere of heart will be able to see, of a truth, that this has got nothing to do with suicide. The thing about it is, that along about 2000 years ago, say in 1st century Palestine, had they received Christ, then He would not have had to die, yes? s: Oh, absolutely. l: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." That forgive- ness would not have been needed, because they would have received what Christ had to give them. It's a similar situation here. I mean David sought to present the 7- Seals, that is clear to the sincere, they can see that. s: Some people will have a hard time with seeing the 7-Seals as being a separate book than the Bible. l: I did not conclude it to be a separate book than the Bible. What I'm saying is that, that same sealed book, was the same sealed book that Daniel, in chapters 10 through 12, was dealing with. s: Yes. l: In Daniel chapter 12, it was told by the Angel that brought Daniel to Elijah... and incidently in Daniel chapter 9, Daniel was making refer- ence to specifically the book of Jeremiah, the prophet, but also mention was made of the other prophets, and indeed Moses. Now, it was out of those books, that the Angel was teaching Daniel, the information recorded in chapters 11-12. And at the conclusion, Daniel was told to close the book, and to seal it until the time of the end. So, at the time of the end, the book will be unsealed. But this was the same book Ezekiel had to deal with, and you'll find that in chapter 10, well it's... yes in chapter 10, the latter part. Ahhh, when John was told to take the book, it was going to be sweet as honey in his mouth, and bitter in his belly; that was the same thing that Ezekiel had to deal with in chapter 4 and chapter 5 of Ezekiel. You follow? s: Precisely, yes. l: Now, the issue is, that this book, that was actually in heaven is somewhat different than the book is on the earth, although the informa- tion is noted in the Scriptures. Do you follow? s: Are saying that the Bible is a physical manifestation of the spiritu- al book? l: Precisely! That's right. Good. In other words, as stated very clearly in Peter, the prophets which comprise the Bible, the information that they wrote was via the illumi- nation of the Spirit, yes? So they speak, so all the prophets speak of this one message, and that information is contained in what we call the Old Testament. Effectively. Because really, the New Testament is just a record of an event, Christ's coming 2000 years ago -- to give that Spirit. That's all it was. The primary purpose of Christ 2000 years ago was to give His Spirit. Now, He didn't even get a chance to be accepted as a messenger from God. Do you follow? s: Yes, very much so. l: For that reason, He never communicated that Spirit. If the world would not accept Him as a messenger from God, then obviously they were not gonna accept what He said. And eventually they will not accept the One Who sent Him. Which He constantly ahh, ahm, made mention of, in the Gospel of John. s: Yes, "if you reject the one who comes in my name... l: So if they... s: ...certainly you're going to reject Me when I come too," would be God's point. Yes. l: So, if they rejected him, and as I mentioned, 2000 years ago they did reject him, but the question is from that time forward the life-force that has facilitated the continuation of humanity has been basically this statement, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." We've been living on that. That is not Life, that is just grace. Life is as John 6:63 says, "the words I speak ... they are spirit... they are life." And that Spirit was committed into the hands of the Father. So, until we receive that spirit in man, he does not possess life, he's merely living on grace. But grace is not an eternal thing -- it has an end. Now the thing is that while humanity was in the position of where they were resting or living on the basis of "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" Christ was caught in a trap. Because as long as humanity was in a state of ignorance, He could not judge the world. s: The Law originally came to ensure that they were not in a state of ignorance. l: But with the statement, `Father, forgive them, for there ignorance' - - If God was to honor that statement, He'd have to forgive them. But there had to be a way for God to communicate this truth to break that deadlock. To invalidate that law, `Forgive them, for they don't know what they do,' and this was done at Mt Carmel. Inasmuch as, once I sit here and speak to you, Stephen -- you are aware of the 7-Seals, yes? s: I am aware of the 7-Seals, and I think I can point to the 7-Seals in the New Testament. Now, that may be different than what you understand. l: Precisely. Well actually, the 7-Seals are not... other than what is recorded in Paul, rather "in John" -- the 7-Seals are not in the New Testament. There are allusions that Paul makes for example, or allusive statements that are made in The Parables, that Christ speaks of. But I'm afraid the detail is far, far greater, than you can imagine. s: ok l: The actual detail, or the context of the 7-Seals is contained in the Old Testament. David did give a basic reference to specific books, like for example: Psalms, Zechariah, Hosea, Ezekiel with respect to the 1st 4 Seals. But then to deal with the other 3, which they are so extensive, in the Old Testament, ahmm, the information contained in the Old Testa- ment, that it is very difficult to actually bring them to the perception of humanity without changing the context within which humanity operates. In other words, humanity, within it's human thinking can not appreci- ate the 7-Seals. No more than they could appreciate Christ, 2000 years ago. No more than they can appreciate what David is really about. I'm trying to be as frank and as truthful as possible, and I hope you can see that in my context Stephen. s: It's necessary. Keep going. l: So I'm faced with a situation here that it's very... I can't communi- cate the 7-Seals. That's outside of the realms of my operation. I can speak in respect to their origin, where they can be found. I can show you the consistency of doctrine, that was shown to us as they relate to the 7-Seals, to demonstrate, and beyond any doubt, that David Koresh taught us the 7-Seals. It's in the context of the 7-Seals that we are now living. Because really, the 7-Seals basically highlight the Purposes of God as they relate to this world. That's what we're dealing with. But the marriage that God is teaching is a union between the divine and the human. That is The Marriage... s: ok l: ... and it's Principle, and it's Expressed Form. It's the tantamount to humanity becoming equal with God. s: As "Children" though? l: Well no. It goes beyond that. It... it goes beyond that. Remember when Christ came -- in the flesh -- He was depicted as the Son of God. Right? s: Yes. l: Outside of the flesh, in His divinity -- He is God. You follow? s: Spiritually, and in the eternal present, Yes. l: Yes. Eventually, we were supposed to transcend the flesh. Remember, ...well actually, I can't say remember, because I doubt very much whether you were there during the Garden of Eden. But the thing is, Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God. Ok. As children. And as children, they were confined, because of the flesh they were housed in, the clay pots. It's that clay pot, to which they were contained in just facilitated the process of maturing in humanity, The Will of God, and the divine purpose. So that they themselves would become God. That's where we get the statement in Psalms 82, where he talks about God goes among the gods, and `know ye not that ye are gods?' Christ men- tioned it Himself, 2000 years ago, which caused great consternation among the Pharisees. s: Well it should. Now let me, lemme interject... and I'm going to ask a hard question... l: Go ahead. s: ...because in my walk with Jesus, I've found that anything that has any form of seduction in it is usually of the devil. l: I agree with you. s: It's a seduction, or so it seems to me, to be offered the Godhood. l: "It's a seduction to be offered the Godhood." Well, here's the thing. Let me just try to demonstrate it on the most basic premise of humanity. You have the family unit which consists first of all of a mother and father. Yes? s: You have something human? l: The family unit. s: The family unit. l: The family unit, which is headed by a mother and a father. They have children, yes? s: Yes. l: Eventually those children themselves grow into becoming mothers and fathers themselves, alright? s: Oh, yes. l: The only difference between those children and the mothers and fathers which bare them, is that the mothers and fathers were first... s: Yes. l: ... in their status of mother and fatherhood. Yes? s: Yes, very much. l: That is the only difference ultimately that was supposed to exist, between God and his children. And anyway, they too ere to obtain unto that position. I mean listen, there's a great big universe out there... s: Yes, huge. l: ... and that universe is for His Children. s: That's right. l: And there are going to be provinces that they populate with their own creations. Do you understand what I'm saying to you? s: Ah, yes -- it's grand. But now I need to make another hard question. l: Go ahead. s: We know that the end-time comes when the son-of-perdition, when satan-incarnate, stands up, as he's tried to do before, in caesar and pharaoh, and others -- as the world ruler -- and says "I am God." l: Precisely. You see this in Isaiah chapter 14 and Ezekiel 28. These 2 chapters develop this concept very well. Now, I can understand that from what has been reported in Mt Carmel, someone could perceive Mt Carmel this way. That is interesting... that we should have a lone person, like what we're dealing with here, saying that he is God, or rather, he didn't say he was God, and in fact he didn't say he was Christ, which was what was reported. What David actually said was "let me address for you the 7- Seals." In other words, the 7-Seals, as Revelation chapter 1:1 says, speaking about what God gave... what The Father gave to The Son, or to The Lamb. In Revelation 1, it says it's a revelation of Christ. So if you know the book, you would be able to identify Christ in the earth. You under- stand? s: I... Telephone Company Recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING." l: For he's the One revealing The Book. You follow? s: The One who is able to unseal The Book, is Christ operating in the earth?? l: That's right. And it's true, from a knowledge of Him unveiling The Book, can you make a judgement of whether He's Christ. Which is what I was privileged, along with the others who are with me right now, to experience, during the 4 1/2 to 5 years that I was listen- ing to David, during His teachings at Mt Carmel. s: Livingstone, how would you explain... and you're going to have to call back. How would you explain then, Christ was killed a second time. l: How would I explain He was killed? Well, let me ask you. How many times did Moses strike the rock? Can you recall? One of the rocks during the wilderness journey, was a symbol of Christ. From: (stephen) Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 3 of 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:46:00 GMT Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th. --- Beginning of Part 3 of 3 --- l: ...Stephen? s: I'm with you. l: I ask you a question before we got cut off, "How many times did Moses strike the rock?" s: You know, I honestly don't recall. l: Alright. Well the story goes back to the Wilderness Wandering, when Moses actually struck the rock twice... [Numbers 20] s: ok l: ...which was an indication of what was to take place. [1st Corinthians 10, note verse 4] s: That's looking for water in the wilderness? l: That's right, "in the wilderness." And the wilderness represented a *dry land* with *no trees*. A desert -- a darkness, effectively. And you remember also in John, there was a statement made by Christ himself, to the effect that ah, in regard to what was being done to him, `if they do these things in a green tree, can you imagine what they'll do in a dry tree.' s: That's right. [actually Luke 23:31] l: You remember that statement? s: That's a good point. Yes, scripturally that's a very good point. Go ahead. l: There was also highlighted, when the children of Israel was traveling through Egypt to Canaan... And note, I make reference to the Law of Moses, and the writings of Moses too, because there is much that is contained in there that pertains to this reality, just as though in The Prophets. But, do you remember the time that God permitted the serpents, to bite them? To address the bite, because when the serpents bit them they actually died. But uhh, Moses was instructed to actually take a brass... to make a serpent of brass, and put it up on a stick. s: Yes, I think it's called "sherutan." l: Right. Well, what's intriguing about this is -- why would God choose a brass *serpent*? You know what the symbol of the serpent is don't you... s: Yes. l: ...going back to the Garden of Eden. I t's supposed to be satan. You will also notice, that ahh, God did cause Moses (and I'll come back to that other statement) God did cause Moses to ahm, employ his rod, which turned into a serpent... s: True. l: ...which ate up the other serpents of the other magicians. [Exodus 7] Interesting. In going back to the "brass serpent on a stick," the serpent is a symbol of the devil. [cf. Numbers 21] But what is brass a symbol of? Well, that goes back to the book Daniel, that talked about an image in volume two [ie chapter 2], which had a head of gold, breastplate made out of silver... [In text it's "arms of silver." Over the phone there were loud noises making it hard to hear.] ...belly of brass, and uhhh, that's right... belly of brass, thigh of iron, etc. etc. going all the way down. [Actually, belly and thighs(sides) of brass, and legs of iron. see verses 31 through 45.] Now, the brass, as we know, represented the kingdom of the grecia... of Greece. Do you follow? s: Brass was Greece? l: You'll have to read the story in Daniel 2. s: Ok. l: The brass was Greece. Now what's Greece noted for -- its *philoso- phy*... s: Very much so. l: ... and sophistry. s: Sophistry, and eventually to today's time, it's logic, and worship of reason. l: Precisely, "human reason" at that. s: Yes. l: Ok. Now, the objective of the brass-serpent, was that Christ was to be lifted up, but there was another aspect of that lifting up -- in what was visible -- that is to say the serpent. There was supposed to be something about that which is contrary to the perceptions of men... [The situation arises around complaints about lack of substantial food and water.] So this was a maxim that was going to take place, just like 2000 years ago when they expected Christ to come as this, this uhhh, I don't know, this... this messiah that was going to destroy the Romans with some kind of army of some sort. But what would be the point to destroy the Romans in front of a kingdom that is still built upon the feelings of humanity? s: Well, He could have done it! He could have called legions of angels down to destroy the Romans, and He chose not to. l: Precisely... s: Because Christ came, because Jesus was focussed on love, and grace extends from His love. Much as Moses... when God sought to uh, destroy the children for their wickedness in the desert; Moses said "blot my name out..." [Exodus 32:32, Numbers 14] l: Right. Yes. He [Christ] could not set up a kingdom. The Jews at the time, in their thinking, were no different than the Romans. So, the Romans were left to continue ruling... s: Yes, if Christ had come in power, as Jesus, then it would have killed us all. l: Oh, exactly. If he were to come in power right now, to humanity... (ok, we'll tie it into the event of Mt Carmel) the same thing would've happened, because christianity today is *no* different. It's a known fact. I mean, you observe what we in the western world call christianity. It's just a part of this political process. For God to come down at this moment -- humanity would be destroyed, because of it's so... sinfulness. I mean right now humanity has no perception of the meaning of the book of Reve- lation. s: Are there exceptions? l: At this present moment, no. I used to be a minister before I was ahh, introduced to David... s: Let me ask you a question about that -- do you have divinity degrees? l: I have a Masters in Theology. s: Go ahead. l: When I came, David even showed me the fact that, there was to be *somebody* to come into the earth (as Revelation 22 pointed out) where even the concept of The Judgement, as declared by John... I have to admit, that that knowledge had escaped me! [Rev. 22:17,16,2 and cp. Numbers 14 esp. verse 21] And I have to admit, that outside of that knowledge, everything else that I had and was taught, was of very little significance. Remember, the last book given to man was the book of Revelation. In truth, you can preach everything you want, about Jesus Christ being the Savior, but without the knowledge of Present Truth which depicts to us where we should be in relationship to the Divine Purpose... s: In the last times. l: Yeah. ...then it's of no significance. Christ is of no significance without a knowledge of what He's doing. s: Well, one of the things that was always apparent to me was, anyone who was drawing upon the material from the Gospels, and drawing upon the material from Revelation, was pointing to those things which dealt very frankly, and very definitely, with Jesus Christ. Now that comes from my background of course. l: Let me make a point in respect to that. You recall in Matthew 24, Christ makes a statement to the disciples that "many shall come in my name..." saying that I am Christ. Not saying that they are Christ, but saying that the person who lived 2000 years ago is Christ, "and shall deceive many." [Matt. 24:5] Now, that's exactly what's happening today. Virtually every Christian denomination teaches that the person who lived 2000 years ago is Christ, yes? s: Yes. l: Now, that's what Christ warned about, in His statement that they will deceive many. In essence the deception is this, they do not teach *the Message of Christ*, but rather teach -- *His historical presence*. Do you follow. s: Yes, yes. They do not do His commandments. l: Well, in not teaching the Message of Christ, what He came to say, from "focussing people's minds on the fact that He lived 2000 years ago", and "establishing church denominations," and yet, these denomina- tion churches doubtless are the basis of this. So that particularly, a denomination can be isolated from others, which merely just sets up a situation where rites, and buildings, and rituals, and tithes, and all the rest of it -- is not the essence of Christ's purpose 2000 years ago. And to that degree, there is deception. Furthermore, it's interesting to note... s: Deception on who's part? l: On the part of humanity... s: Yes. Yes I know. I needed to ask the question, go ahead. l: They're deceived. Without the knowledge of The Message Christ came to give, which in Luke chapter 3 makes clear, mankind was in need of. And that knowledge which is His Spirit was commended into the hand of The Father. Without that knowledge, then mankind is lost back there 2000 years ago, on what is recorded by the uhh, the Gospels. But the truth about it, no one really needs another human being to come and teach them what is so plainly stated in the Gospels. s: That's right. l: And certainly, you don't need to pay someone to teach you that. s: That's right too. l: I think it would be easier for you to spend your money gaining a basic knowledge of written English. Or developing your reading skills, and read it for yourself. s: There's a better coin-in-trade than money, anyway. Ok. Livingstone on the point of Jesus, who Jesus is. Jesus went through a very unique experience, and there will be those who want to ask how Jesus plays into this? From my perspective, what I want to ask because this is an expression of my belief... Jesus became part of God, in a sense Jesus became united with, uhm, joined with God... After the resurrection. l: Ok, let me demonstrate. s: ok l: That's true, but there was an experience while He was on earth... s: Yes. l: ...that made Him One with God before that... s: Yes. l: The uhm, 40 days in the wilderness... s: Was it that Livingstone, or was it The Baptism? l: Well, actually it was that. The Baptism was significant as an outward show. To those who were receptive enough to see the right things, like John and those around him. s: Well, didn't we have two Manifestations occurring at that point, in other words, we saw the Spirit of God come into Christ at The Baptism. However, in The Wilderness, what was given to Christ, was it The Word? l: Well, in The Wilderness, let me present it this way -- can a human person, a human body, live for 40 days without food? No. Christ went in there... I mean up to that point He had come to appreciate, that ahh, He was divine. But we have to prove that. Cause if The Word dwelt in Him, It most essentially means that He was eternal... so, that He could go to The Wilderness, He could live 40 days without food, and yet He would not die. That was a test for Him. That He had appointed to complete, that He was indeed called of God. s: Now you understand, many will say that's not scriptural. l: What? s: In respect to there being any evidence of Him not taking food during that time. l: Well, ok, I can accept that statement. If people find difficulty with that, then I'd have to use something else to demonstrate to them, the truth of that. But... I mean, 40 days in the wilderness -- where's He going to get food from? s: Well, we have the instance with hmm, was it the prophet Isaiah that was fed by ravens, and we have the instance of manna for those on The Exodus. Are those [some examples] that would be pointed out. [I was wrong. It was Elijah fed by the ravens.] l: But there is nothing to prove that. One thing that's certain is that while He was in the wilderness, and satan came to him, one of the things that satan *tempted* Him on was (as you know) -- food. s: Yes. [Matthew 4 and Luke 4, esp. verse 3&4 in both cases] l: Now, why would he do that, if Christ was being taken care of as far a food was concerned? It certainly wouldn't be a temptation. s: Yes. He had to hunger. l: I'm not absolutely sure, but I understand that He was led away into the wilderness to be tempted. Now it states in the text itself that he was a hungered. [Matt. 4:2 and Luke 4:2] The point I'm trying to make from that I think you perceive already -- is the fact that Christ needed proof, of His divinity, whilst He was in humanity. And it had to be that way, because of the fact that if He was totally 100% ahmm, aware of His divinity, then there would be questions as to whether or not He was fit to be a Redeemer for humanity. Remember the statements about His being in all points tempted as we were? s: Yes. [Hebrews 4:15] l: And his being able to succour us? s: Yes. [Hebrews 2:18] Many point to that, to Him being tempted in affairs of sex as well. l: Precisely. That had to be. Otherwise, there is questions about His fitness. Now there was the former argument, that, "Well, it's alright being tempted...", and it's fine, to be able to meet humanities needs, for those of us who have only suffered temptations. But as men have fallen as a consequence of temptation, ah, satan would argue, and quite reason- ably, that all human beings who have in fact fallen in temptation, are his. And outside of the redeeming, or the salvation process of God, then we'll have to come down a step lower to address that argument, yes? s: "All would have to come down a step lower to address that"? l: Yes.. s: Yes, they don't have their eyes on the Power of God. l: In other words, what I'm saying to you is that, God would have to meet fallen man where he is at any point in the process to be able to show Himself as being a redeemer of mankind. There is no depth of degradation that man can reach that God can not save him. s: That is what Paul guarantees us in that we have a High Priest (in Hebrews) a Priest of the Melchizedek [Heb. 5-8], Who is there, Who has paid the blood sacrifice, for us to be in The Holy of Holies, *continu- ally*, as an intercessor for us. l: But the point being is that if Christ is not... can not... Christ's ability as a high priest, Christ's ability as a redeemer, must be corre- lated to His experiencing or the depth of experience encompassing those He seeks to redeem. Now if my sins are outside of Christ's redeeming abilities, his redeeming qualities, then He can not save me. s: Say that all again. l: Christ's redeeming qualifications rests upon His abilities to encom- pass the extent of humanities sins. s: That's right. l: If I personalize it, what I'm saying is that, Christ, can not under- stand, or can not appreciate sins committed, rather than temptations. And this is by virtue of His own experience. Now, there is a question that must arise, as to whether or not He is fit enough to reach down and meet somebody who is fallen into sin. s: I understand that you're leading up to Koresh. Let me stay with Christ for a moment. Christ made the assertion that, if you lust in your heart, it's the same as if you had the sex act... [Matthew 5:27-28, regarding adultery] l: That's right. s: ...and if you hate it's the same as if... l: You commit murder. s: ... you killed. [Matthew 5:21-22] l: Alright. s: So that, to Him there was no distinction between... l: Ok. Fine. s: Ahh, yes. Uh huh. ok Is the justification important to man in that the sentence be carried out? In that, The Judgement be carried out? l: For man yes, because at the end of the day, every man will stand before God -- without an argument. The truth about it is that if God never came down to the level of mankind, then essentially you could argue with... mankind could argue, "Well, God, it's alright, that talk about being able to suffer me, but listen -- You didn't sin." I recommend that you read Psalms 40, in respect to this issue. Now there is spoken of a person there. That a body was prepared for. It speaks about him in the volume of the book. Now, if you read that chapter in it's truest context, something very significant is brought out about the *person* spoken of in the chapter. s: You say this is Psalms 40. l: That's right. Preferably with Psalms 139 and Psalms ahmm, Psalms 89. s: 139 & 89 ?? l: That's right. What I need to do to be able to develop this argument... now, hold on a second, all that we're doing is developing an argument. At the end of the day you must decide based on information presented, what position you take. Do you follow what I'm saying? s: Oh, yes. l: But, what I feel is, [it's] necessary for you to be able to perceive the frame of reference that I'm operating in... there is a certain con- ceptual reality that is necessary for you to understand, for us to build our discussion. Do you follow? s: To build on... ? l: To build our discussion. s: To build the discussion. l: That's right. And some of this information I'm now giving to you. With your having a background in those things we can then proceed, in our discussion. But until that is so, I can not assume, as I said in the article, that we're actually operating in the same conceptual frame of reference. Cause I know that we're not. s: Yes. I understand. l: I really do know that we're not. s: To me it's a simple matter of "impedance matching." I think in terms of signals and antennae and such. l: Right. s: We've got to have that bridge, that right framework, and mesh-up before the best and most accurate transmission of power can occur without reflections. ["self-reflections"] l: That's exactly it. So at the moment, even as we have been discussing over the past, I think roughly, an hour now. In our discussion thus far there are many things that I have said that I know do not... are not received in the context of my expression. You are still viewing them in the context of where you're at. s: Yes. l: Now, I understand in my there is a lot of individuals who do that to protect themselves. But the truth about it is, if I'm showing you Truth, you really do not need to protect your self, because it's really... we're talking about freedom. s: Yes, truth is the way by which I know how to correct those things which are wrong. l: Sure. Anything that is in error is enslaving you. s: That's right. Amen. That's right. l: So with the basic conceptual reference that we're operating in, you can enter in there for your self, and judge it. Your mind and your free will is not in any way, ahmm, sacrificed. It is necessary for you to demonstrate an element of trust, to facilitate the discussion. Nobody forces anybody, (certainly not where we're coming from), to be able to understand this truth. Everybody that's here, that is currently being identified as Branch Davidian, adopts this position out of absolute free choice. s: They voluntarily entered into whatever the situation is? l: Voluntarily. s: They were not coerced by anybody? l: Yes. s: Would you say that for the children as well? l: Well the children go with the parents. s: Yes, it's so. l: So from that premise, it's likely what the government would be saying is that, "Ok, you can do what you want, but don't take your children along." BUT THAT'S A RIGHT. That's a PARENTAL RIGHT! It's your right, if you have kids, that you should take a responsibility to ah, ahm, take care of the temporal; as well as the eternal, destiny of those children. Now listen, I'm going to have to conclude now. We've got a problem right here. Somebody else wants the phone. s: I understand. One thing more for me and I'm not recording this. l: What's that. --- End of Part 3 of 3 --- | -- J -- "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples | indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth | stephen shall make you free." (Jesus to the Jews who believed on him. John 8:31-32)


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