Subject: Judgment Day for America - July 4th, 1993 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:31:00 GMT A Li
From: email@example.com (stephen)
Subject: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:31:00 GMT
A Living Proof against America is the continuing imprisonment of
Livingstone Fagan, who is still being held as a =MATERIAL WITNESS=
and has been since March -- it is now July. Fagan is Branch Davidian.
Originally he was being held in McLennan County Jail, but has since
been moved to the Coryell County Jail in Gatesville Texas.
Mr. Fagan is a British citizen.
His present address for mail is:
Gatesville, Texas 76528
The attendants are not allowed to pass messages to him,
nor telegrams, as I was told -- but he can receive mail.
But he is allowed to make collect calls between the hours
of 8 am - 11 pm.
I spoke by phone with British Vice Consul, David Hook, (who's
presently in Dallas, though his office is in Houston), and has
been up here visiting in the Dallas and Waco area. He saw
Livingstone last monday. I had to contact the British Consular
Office to find LF since he's not tracked as a prisoner by the
Texas Criminal system (after many wasted phonecalls).
Mr. Fagan is an eloquent spokesman for the Davidian beliefs,
who lost his Wife and Mother in the fire, and his children are
being held by Texas Protective Services.
He's a gracious man who I myself visited when he was at McLennan
county jail on the day before Palm Sunday. We spoke on matters of
faith mostly, (he has divinity degrees), but in parting I asked
him if there was anything I could do for him. All he asked for
at the time was to try to get some unleaven bread for Passover.
I contacted the McClennan county Chaplain for assistance in the
matter -- the end results of which were fruitless even with the
intercession of the local Adventist(!) Pastor, which Fagan had
It is my opinion that, Livingstone Fagan is now being held as a
*Religious Prisoner* by direction of the US Federal Government,
-- because granted his liberty -- he could make clear that the
Davidians believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God.
So where is the ACLU and other civil rights groups??
And where are the proponents of religious freedom??
Livingstone Fagan while locked up is clear witness against the
HYPOCRISY and EVIL of America as it goes fourth in revelry this
coming INDEPENDENCE DAY. So much for religious freedom.
May Almighty God call forth a True Witness and Righteous Judge to
weigh the depths of corruption that this nation has fallen too --
if such be in accord with His justice. This July 4th by rights should
be our Nation's Judgment Day, when all the guilty can experience for
themselves first hand how quickly Mt. Carmel burned.
Please, share this prayer:
Lord God Almighty return us to righteousness by thy just chastisements
for thy Namesake. Leave not those who you love alone, to stew in the
inquity of their own uncaring. Please turn us Lord, from the path of
utter destruction, and return us to thy way, O Lord. Thy will be done.
(As is my faith, I pray in Christ Jesus' name. Amen.)
| "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather
-- J -- give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengence
| is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)
| stephen (Deut. 32:35-36)
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (stephen)
Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America -- July 4th, 1993
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 07:10:00 GMT
In article ,
email@example.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes...
>firstname.lastname@example.org (stephen) writes:
>>It is my opinion that, Livingstone Fagan is now being held as a
>>*Religious Prisoner* by direction of the US Federal Government,
>>-- because granted his liberty -- he could make clear that the
>>Davidians believe in Christ Jesus as the Son of God.
>This statement is a non-sequitur; Fagan is being held *because*
>if he were free he could make clear that the Davidians believe in
>Jesus as the son of god? As there are other Branch Davidians
>and former BDs available to explain this, I find this a totally
>>So where is the ACLU and other civil rights groups??
>>And where are the proponents of religious freedom??
>Give me some evidence that Fagan is being held because of his
>religious beliefs. So far, you've given none.
Evidence fooey ML. If I'd wanted to persuade you I would have
supported what I stated was my opinion. You decide on your own.
Go find out, I gave plenty of contact info.
Coryell County Sheriff
(and jail) (817) 865-7201
for criminal prisoners (817) 865-6663
Dallas office of the British Consulate (214) 637-3600
As to why Livingstone is being held, doesn't he deserve to be
released unless there are charges coming up soon? He's been
held in legal limbo for months now -- since March, though "other"
witnesses are free and "available." And btw where is "Amnesty
LF came out of Mt. Carmel Compound after Schroeder -- the first
few days after the initial raid, only to be kept in jail, as a
witness. It is also my opinion that he's being kept muzzled, much
as Koresh was. Strange, why bother?
Guess what, Fagan could well be the succesor to Koresh. Is it
that something they would say could cause people to change
their minds?? What could be so threatening? Haven't they been
thoroughly discredited as a demon cult already?
But rather than me elaborate -- why don't you just decide for
yourself. Send him a letter with your telephone number in it,
(if you'll take a collect call). Used to be you could send him
a telegram. And it's also smart to send stamps and sase, if
That is, if God doesn't turn his back and allow evil to firebomb
LA or DC first, or something similar... say mebe, "Nuke NY."
("Huh, nahhh, no terrorist would dare attack on the 4th, not on a
holiday. No way. We'd stomp their butts. And if we had any idea,
what was up, we'd hit 'em hard first. Give 'em 150 missiles this
Yet, if such rotten methods are used on innocent "witnesses," makes
you wonder what "our" government has been doing to control =enemies=,
(punishment, media-access, and propaganda-wise).
Now, *IF* I'm anywhere close to right about why Livingstone Fagan
is being detained, how's that make you feel about your government??
Gooey, YOU go figure it out.
More importantly, my faith is that the only One keeping America from
being hammered hard by the wicked of the world is God. I wonder how
long God will protect a nation of hypocrites? ('Course I reckon I
have some good precedents in The Good Book, to go on.)
The continuing imprisonment of Livingstone Fagan is =proof= that our
government is still acting wickedly and wrong, just as it did during
the `siege' on the Davidians. In America, all you have to do to be
locked away is be a "witness." In another tongue, the word is "martyr."
| Elijah said,
-- J -- "How long will you halt between two opinions? ..."
| stephen (1 Kings 18)
From: email@example.com (stephen)
Subject: The Faith of Mt Carmel // re: Jail Mail from Livingstone Fagan
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 20:20:00 GMT
[Text of Livingstone Fagan's enclosure in mail to me on 7-13-93 -- Sdt]
Since leaving Mt Carmel my most difficult task has been to
communicate the position of faith in which I stand. A task David
tried so hard to accomplish. This has been overshadowed by
concern with the material facts and the bizarre media reporting
of Mt Carmel. Ironically a proper understanding of the facts of
Mt Carmel is not possible outside an appreciation of the faith we
This problem is made further difficult because of a large class
of seemingly prejudiced and surprisingly superficial minds. Not
to mention fear, and those with vested interest in not knowing
the truth. On the face of it, all of this adds up to a difficult
and frustrating situation. But not really. I know that deep in
the heart of all who witnessed Mt Carmel the flames are still
burning. The memory of those consumed lives on. To those of you
who seek to know the truth I will try to meet your sincerity.
To appropriate our position of faith it is necessary to
understand the conceptual frame of reference in which we operate.
I have learnt, that this cannot be assumed. The problem therefore
rest with bridging our conceptual differences. Let me say once
this is accomplished the logic and simplicity of our faith will
be seen in its true beauty.
The human sensory perceptors are extremely crude as mediums of
information gathering. They are limited in space and time, and
subject to manipulation. It therefore follows that information
derived from the senses must be subject to scrutiny if wrong
judgement is to be avoided. This problem is made even more
difficult where minds are corrupted by particular prejudices. It
is also important to note, that the primary purpose of the senses
is to facilitate consciousness of the physical, as opposed to the
spiritual, environment we humans operate in.
The foundation of our position of faith lies in the domain of the
spiritual, albeit with a physical manifestation. This is the
subject matter of The Book Sealed with Seven Seals. It brings to
view the hitherto un-manifest divine Will. Conceptually this is
outside of the frame of references mankind presently operates in.
It is perceivable only by the divine process described as the
`quickening.' Please see (KJV) John 5:21, 6:63 Ps. 119:37, 40,
50, 149 Eph. 2:1-5 1 and Cor. 15:45. It is from a position of
experiencing this process that I speak. We are recipients of the
righteousness which comes not by the will and action of man, but
of the will and action of God. The human will surrendering to a
progressive revelation of the divine will quickens (empowers) man
to become a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:1-4).
Salvation is simply being saved from human nature, which leads to
death. Mankind cannot save himself. Any act on his part flows
from his corrupt human nature. His only option is to trust God to
do it for him. This, God is faithful and just to do. Do not
however expect it to be done according to the perceptions and
judgements of man.
Very briefly, the knowledge of the Will of God empowering man to
be a partaker of the divine nature was not given 2,000 years ago.
In rejecting Christ, that knowledge was also rejected. The human
race has continued hitherto on the basis of Christ's forgiveness
(Luke 23:34). That knowledge which is the Spirit of Christ was,
at the Cross, commended into the hand of the Father (Luke 23:46,
see also John 6:63, 5:24 and 1 Cor. 2:9-14). In the book of
Revelation the apostle John is invited to heaven to behold the
Judgement of the end of time (Rev. 4 ff). In Rev. 5, in the right
hand of the One [who] sat on the throne is a book sealed with
seven seals. This book contains that Spirit, Christ commended
into the hand of the Father, in written form. Among other things,
the seals reveal the event of Christ's return, just prior to his
glorious manifestation (Rev. 1:1, 22:12, cf John 16:12-14). This
is in contrast to the mistaken belief that the Seals reveal the
history of the Church to the end of time. Through a knowledge of
the Seals, the human agent is made able to comprehend the
incomprehensible -- God in the flesh!
David Koresh showed us the Seals. That which is not lawful for a
man to do. In killing Him the details of that knowledge was once
again rejected. But not without Witnesses. Moreover, on this
occasion the knowledge concerning the Seven Seals being the
subject matter of the Judgement, is made available to man. This
is extremely serious. The human race can no longer hide under the
Law of Forgiveness for his ignorance (Luke 23:34). The Judgement
of this World is in process. The next phase is the execution of
that Judgement. This has dire consequences for the wicked. It
does not end there. Christ's glorious manifestation will not be
immediately all consuming. In the establishment of His kingdom on
the earth, those deprived of the choice for truth will be
afforded opportunity. (Dan. 2:44 Isa. 2:2-4 Zech. 8:20-23, 14
Ours is not a Theory of Religion. We lived it, and also died for
it. Spirit and Truth have met, and are joined in each other.
--- < end forwarded text > --
To respond, send postal mail to:
Coryell County Jail
510 Leon St.
Gatesville, Tx. 76528
-- J -- The Word is The Bridegroom and The Comforter is The Bride.
| stephen (John 15 & 16, 1st John 4 & 5, Revelation 19 - 21)
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Stephen Tice, Arlington, Texas, uXa)
Subject: Re: Judgment Day for America
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 06:28:00 GMT
In article <1993Jul7.email@example.com>,
firstname.lastname@example.org (Chris Blask) writes...
>strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>>A silent press, and witnesses held incommunicado
>>for months doesn't give me any warm fuzzies.
>By witnesses you mean prisoners? Have you seen a lot of prisoners
>interviewed on TV before a trial?
Let me make absolutely clear that Livingstone Fagan has been held
for 4 months IN TWO DIFFERENT JAILs, IN REGULAR CELLS, for nothing
more than being a *WITNESS*. He has not been convicted of anything.
He hasn't been charged with anything.
When they do free him, they'll likely try to deport him (as has been
done with a Davidian who's a Jamaican national) -- and stick him right
back in a cell in an INS "facility," (since he's British). Which is hor-
rible, since his two children who came out the from Mt. Carmel the first
week, as he did, are lost off somewhere in Texas Protective Services.
Fagan came out the first week of March, and was never charged with
anything, but has been held since as a "material witness."
It makes me sick. I couldn't even go back to evening "July 4th" church
services last sunday -- cause I found during morning services that I
can't bring myself to say the pledge of allegiance any more. My nation
has become the evil-enemy that the Soviets were, that I stood against
for 11 years while in US military service. Now I understand why the
flag-burners burned flags... but I still can't. Cause =America= is all
the people who have ever been Americans living and dead, and many if
not most of them were good people. And this land is where 8 generations
of the bodies of my European ancestors, and much much farther back in my
indian roots, are most all buried.
I am deeply hurt and ashamed of what it's become though. And heartsick
to find that the government has become so wicked, and the people so un-
caring. I hope God will open your eyes. The truth of all this is only
hidden by a very thin veil -- which any of you could see through -- if
you cared. Some have, and to you I'm greatful -- be careful though.
I knew something was badly wrong when the federal authorities re-edited
the tape Koresh released, putting a part of something he'd said later on
the front -- by their own admission. So I got hold of a copy of the tape
myself, from the broadcast studios, and made a transcript. Compared it to
the transcript published in the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, which was credi-
ted to the Associated Press -- I was shocked to find that every few lines
of an hour long transcript were badly twisted. WHY???
I myself went down to visit Livingstone Fagan in jail in Waco, on the
saturday prior to palm sunday. And found he was being held separate from
the rest of the Davidians. Others had been charged, he hadn't. I myself
tried to get the Chaplain involved in providing some unleavened bread
which Livingstone asked for -- the Chaplain explained he couldn't without
going through the federal authorities, and was never able to get him any
I myself tracked down Livingstone after he'd been moved recently, no
easy matter. He's not being tracked like all the criminals in the Texas
penal system, by number. Eventually I found out from a phone call with
the British Vice Consul himself, that Livingstone is now being held down
in Gatesville (city), in the Coryell County Sheriff's Office. There are
3 other facilities in Coryell county where convicts are kept -- 2 for
I keep emphasizing "myself," because I'm not going on media reporting.
Or what I hear. I've heard all kinds of nonsense spanning the spectrums
of paranoia, and entertainment. And plenty to much of "who cares."
I tried to point out when I started this thread that, I'm not trying
to convince you of anything -- but I am convinced myself -- because
I made the effort to find out. And it cost me, much more than money,
it cost me my love for *my* country. And I pray to God that he heal
my heart... I've kinda gotten used to crying now.
Be careful, don't make the effort, if your not able to bear the price.
Btw. I've contacted the Ft. Worth ACLU. And been pointed to their
board of directors. Tried calling one attorney last week, who's gone
this week, but his partner's also on the board. Talked to the partner
today, since they don't handle federal matters, he's given me the name
of another director who does.
I'll call him tomorrow and see if a writ of habeas corpus makes sense,
and if he'll submit it.
I'll also call the Christian Law Association tomorrow, for the same,
which I've held off from till now. Should be interestin' to compare notes.
I reckon I might as well get a second opinion. Any more ideas?
And please, somebody else, someone with guts -- double check me. The
contact info is in the earlier parts of the thread, but it's best to
dig it out on your own, I reckon. (Holler otherwise.)
| "Our fathers' God, to thee, Author of liberty,
-- J -- To Thee I sing: Long may our land be bright
| With freedom's holy light;
| stephen Protect us by Thy might, Great God, our King!"
From: email@example.com (stephen)
Subject: A Letter from Livingstone Fagan // re: Judgment Day for America
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1993 02:01:00 GMT
I'd like to share part of letter Livingstone Fagan sent me. He's
writing from Coryell County Jail, on July 7th; I received it today
--- < begin missive > ---
I received your letter today. It was good to hear from
you. My sincere gratitude once again for your continu-
ing concern and your practical support. When I was
transferred from McLennan County on June 9th they
refused to allow me to take any personal items with me.
All my contact addresses, etc. were taken from me and
have not been returned.
[sigh, no doubt, this means his Bible too, again. --Sdt]
Still, how are you? There is much I would very much
like to share with you and others regarding the Seven
Seals. The events at Mt. Carmel and subsequent develop-
ments, particularly internationally, has created a much
better climate for belief. Until these events came to
pass, the prophetic writings have been falling on deaf
ears. The few individuals I have been able to speak
with are now beginning to perceive astonishing things
from the prophetic texts. This generation finds it
virtually impossible to believe without seeing. This is
indicative of its faithlessness, yet apparent religios-
ity. Presently humanity does not even possess the basic
concepts of faith upon which perception can take place.
This was the environment David was working under, and
to some degree remains for many. The communications
media is conveying totally false information. It is no
wonder why the judgment of so many is incorrect and
I understand much more clearly why the prophets wrote
of our time. Had they not done so, no one, I repeat no
one, would really know the truth of what is going on.
Truly, truly as John the Revelator wrote, the whole
world would be deceived into worshipping the dragon
(satan) -- Rev. 13. It is only through the eyes of the
prophets that the truth of this time can be known.
This fact I desire greatly to bring to your attention.
My being locked up has proved quite a hindrance.
On the subject of my being locked up. I mentioned above
that my personal effects were taken from me. I came to
Coryell County jail with nothing but my jail clothing.
There has been no explanation for this. My material
witness status has not been changed. I am not charged,
convicted, nor are there any allegations made against
me. I was placed in an open cell with indicted and
convicted inmates. Since then I have been subject to
treatment as if I were a prisoner. My lawyer has made
successive appeals to the magistrates regarding the
legality of my detention, and the unacceptable condi-
tions in which I am being held. These appeals have been
met with delay and disappointment.
Whilst the condition, of being kept 4 to a cell measur-
ing 10 x 12 at McLennan County, has improved somewhat,
this has only been replaced with other atrocities. My
present cell has an intercom installed enabling the
jailer to listen to my conversations at will. Up to
recently I had not been given knowledge of jail rules &
responsibilities, and act in itself contrary to jail
policy. Both my incoming and outgoing mail is being
opened and read. I am somewhat concerned whether this
letter will reach you. Please, write and confirm. My
personal belongings are being withheld. Stephen, what
I am saying to you are facts. All the above are con-
trary to jail policy, not to mention my constitutional
rights. Despite attempts to address these matters
nothing has been done. I have been incarcerated for in
excess of 100 days, and there does not seem to be and
end in sight.
It's true when I left Mt. Carmel, David appointed me
spokes person for Our faith and philosophy. I too
believe the reason I am being detained and my communi-
cations monitored is to prevent me from speaking out on
the truth of Mt. Carmel. Thus far those I have spoken
to are astonished at what is truly going on. There is a
definite attempt on the part of the government to
silence us and cover up the truth of Mt. Carmel.
I have been endowed with a particular responsibility,
and given certain freedoms to communicate The Truth
regarding Mt. Carmel. Whilst The World continues to
absorb the events of Mt. Carmel, they are being pre-
pared for an unmistakable Revelation yet to come. The
deception presently enshrouding humanity will be lift-
ed. Without controversy, we know what is happening. The
peoples of The World will be furious when they find
The times we are in are increasingly serious. Unfortu-
nately, so many remain blind and asleep to what's going
on. Indeed much is being done in The Communication
Media to keep them that way. Without doubt everything
truly pertaining to Mt. Carmel has its place in the
plans and purposes of God for This World. Without a
knowledge of The Seven Seals it is impossible for the
human mind to even begin to grasp these truths. Besides
those of us who remain from Mt. Carmel, the world is
ignorant of these truths of the Seven Seals and the
significance of Mt. Carmel. There are many things
pertaining to this existing earthly reality the truth
of which can only be seen in light of the Seven Seals.
I know not what this System is planning for me, or how
long it intends to hold me like this. I am however
aware of God's plans for me, and indeed for this Sys-
tem. There is but a short time left. My God's method of
teaching me patience, I conclude to be perfect. I have
been able to enjoy many long hours of illuminating
meditation. Living the truths of what I believe in has
been a unique and incredible experience. I know under-
stand from both sides what it means to be "written in
the book." This experience of being a partaker of the
divine nature is beyond human learning, and incommuni-
cable by conventional human means of perception. I
appreciate more clearly why salvation has to be an
individual thing. It's an experience, not a theory.
ps. write soon
--- < so ends Livingstone's letter > ---
His gulag address remains:
510 Leon St.
Gatesville, Tx 76528
I'll say more in another posting, but to close, permit me to bring to your
attention a few messages from Scripture -- for those who have eyes to see:
Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a
day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you;
and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made
by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same
day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for
you before the LORD your God. (Leviticus 23:27-28)
Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on
the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement
shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you,
to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins be-
fore the LORD. (Leviticus 16:30)
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come,
by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with
hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the
blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered
in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemp-
tion for us. (Hebrews 9:11-12)
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord
Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
| "Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee...
-- J -- Could my tears for ever flow, Could my zeal no langour know,
| These for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone:
| stephen In my hand no price I bring, Simply to Thy cross I cling.
Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee."
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (email@example.com AARC SFA State Univ.)
Subject: Another letter from Livingstone Fagan
Date: 10 Jul 93 20:08:35 CST
After Stephen's post several days ago about the gross mistreatment
of Livingstone Fagan, I wrote Fagan a letter at the address provided
by Stephen, namely:
Mr. Livingstone Fagan
Gatesville, Texas 76528
Today I received a reply from Livingstone. He confirmed
everything Stephen has been saying and more. I am posting Livingstone's
reply to my letter in its entirety, being assured that the 'authorities'
have already read it as stated by Livingstone and as confirmed by the
scotch tape on the seal to which he probably would not have had access.
In my letter to Fagan I enclosed a self-addressed stamped envelope and
urged that he return it with or without enclosed message to assure me
of receipt of my letter.
Remember, Fagan is not free to make his own statement to the
world. Remember, he is only a 'material witness', held without bail
for over 100 days with no charges against him.
Livingstone Fagan's Cry of the Heart:
Dear Mr. Gaut
I received your letter this morning. Let me first
say how comforting it was to hear from you. Sadly very few
Americans appear to be aware, or concerned about those noble
principles upon which this once great nation was founded.
Although I am not an American citizen I must
acknowledge, it was while in America I came to appreciate
the true meaning of Liberty as a principle. I have since
learnt that, in practice this nation no longer lives up to
the principles it professes. The events at Mt. Carmel and
my subsequent unlawful detention bear testimony to a most
distressing state of affairs for the world. My greatest
concern is that so many look to this nation for leaderhsip.
Their trust is greatly betrayed and abused, and has been
for so long. One had to literally experience this situation
to know the real truth.
Liberty is indeed the outpouring of life. To be denied
it, is to be denied life itself. If there was ever a cause
worth fighting for this is it. That very substance called
life is intimately connected with the pursuit of truth and
conscience. Mt. Carmel was about the pursuit of truth and
conscience as it is in God. Inspite of what is propagandized
about us, in death and imprisonment our consciences remain
We made a choice for truth, and we placed it above
temporal existence. My heart is moved with tears of restrained
joy. The result of having been shattered and torn by the
experience of the grave injustice practiced against us. Joe,
it may not be apparent to you, but believe me, through us God
spoke to the world. The essence of this truth is the subject
matter of the seven seals. This is what Mt. Carmel was truly
about, and what the authorities fear the public becoming
aware of. As a spokesperson for our faith, which incidentally
is so thoroughly based in scripture it's uncanny, I am being
prevented from speaking much as David was.
The medium of ink on paper, and the use of telephone
are far too restrictive to communicate the essence of the
seven seals. I sit sometimes in dispair at what is being
denied to the American people, and indeed to the world. We
have been given something very special. Something so special
it is worth sacrificing anything for.
In spite of the loss of my wife, and my mother. Also
my children being taken from me I hold no hate, or anger
against those who persecute us. The memory of those who I
love engender concern for the soul salvation of those responsible.
If they would but consider the seven seals.
Presently I am classified a 'material witness.' I
have been detained as such for over 100 days now, with no end
in sight. The conditions of my incarceration are no different
to any other person convicted, indicted, or charged with a
crime. Whilst at McLennan County jail for the longest while,
I was locked up in a 10 x 12 room 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week with three other adults. This was in maximum security.
Our only real comfort was we shared the same status. My
present condition has improved with respect to space. Never-
theless my communication is severely monitored. Incoming and
outgoing mail is opened and read. I have an intercom system
in my cell. For the longest while I was denied access to a
copy of the jail policy statement. On two occasions I have
been denied counsel, awaiting approval from the U.S. Marshalls'
Office. My access to relatives abroad has been severely
restrited. The list goes on.
My consolation is in the faith I hold. The power of
the seven seals has proven to me its capacity to endure
whatever hunanity throws at it. Let me further say Joe, you
will find our beliefs are not as dissimilar as you might
think. Certainly our understanding of the basic rights from
God appear to be in harmony. There is so much more.
Once again my appreciation for your concern and
practical support. Please write to confirm receipt of this
From: B645ZAW@UTARLG.UTA.EDU (STEPHEN TICE)
Subject: Livingstone Charged Today (7-16) -- 4 months after being jailed
Date: 16 Jul 1993 16:54:11 -0500
Having tried to post this several times via news, without success,
(there seems to be a problem with the local system), I'm sending
it by alt-route. Please, repost for me on appropriate newsgroups,
and elsewhere. Thanks -- Sdt
I just spoke with Livingstone Fagan's attorney in Waco,
who told me that he was charged today (7-16) with Con-
spiracy to Commit Murder, and Possesion of a Fire Arm.
Let me make it clear. Livingstone came out of Mt Carmel
in mid-march, and has been held through april, may, june,
and to the middle of july -- without being charged --
He's in McLennan County Jail again, until they decide where
to stick him next. He can still receive mail wherever they
put him, but you'd best send paper and an self-addressed
stamped envelope if you want to correspond. The McLennan
County address is:
McLennan County Jail
Waco, Tx 76701
Haven't a clue where they'll stick him next, but no doubt
they'll take their time about it. For those who care, please,
send him a short postcard for encouragement.
I myself believe Livingstone Fagan is a religious prisoner,
who is being made an example of -- as a warning to all those
who do not bow down to the system.
Please pray for him, that God grant him forbearance.
And pray for those who know righteous hate, that God fill their
vision with glory and love, and patience enough to await the
direction of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
| "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but
-- J -- rather give place unto wrath: for it is written,
| Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
(Romans 12, note verse 9, cp. Psalms 139, note v.22)
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (stephen)
Subject: Government Harassment // re: Livingstone Charged
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 06:19:00 GMT
Here's an update.
Livingstone called me tonite, and let me know that the hearing
continues monday. Seems the Judge hasn't bought the STORY that
"someone (un-named) supposedly saw LF with a gun shooting at
BATF troops from what used to be the Mt. Carmel center tower,"
(which is now the basic accusation being levied by the govern-
ment prosecutors -- 4 months after jailing him as a witness).
So he's definitely at McLennan County Jail through Monday.
It reminds me of when they charged the 77 and 75 year old ladies
who came out of Mt. Carmel with conspiracy, later dropped.
Is this part of what federal prosecutors are paid to do -- harassment???
If so, it sure explains why some lawyers are such a pain in the ass,
along with bill collectors, and some lobbyists and activists.
Considering the floodlights and noriega-noise type psy-ops used on
all the Davidians, I wonder how much harassment the "negotiators"
heaped on Koresh and Schneider through the phone??
And while I can stand Gays using "In Your Face Tactics," Operation
Rescue "Publicity Stunts," the Klan "Burning Crosses," and even war
protestors "Burning the Flag" (in the interest of freedom of speech),
I think the IRS, BATF, FBI, or even the local police using the same
methods against civilians -- in the paid performance of their duties
-- is pure BULL SHIT! Especially, when it goes on to physical methods
such as being confined, or constraining access.
From the beginning, Waco has been an exercise in Government Harassment
-- against folks on the fringe. Which would all unravel if the larger
public realized that anyone who's not "pro-government" is on the fringe
-- in the eyes of the feds.
The big problem is that harassment is risky, and when mistakes are made,
harassment too easily becomes persecution, injury, or manslaughter. And
were it not that some people are justed twisted or wicked -- which is why
we have law-enforcement anyway -- I'd be ready to believe Waco was just
But there are good people everywhere, and evil -- even in government.
Harassment is bad enough, but if crimes were committed by the BATF, FBI,
or even the Justice Department -- who would bring justice now??
-- J -- "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape
| the damnation of hell? (Jesus, Matthew 23:33, note context)
From: email@example.com (stephen)
Subject: Re: Government Harassment // re: Livingstone Charged
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 06:01:00 GMT
In article ,
firstname.lastname@example.org (Bob Zwarick) writes...
>In article <18JUL199301191205@utarlg.uta.edu>
>>Livingstone called me tonite, and let me know that the hearing
>>continues monday. Seems the Judge hasn't bought the STORY that
>>"someone (un-named) supposedly saw LF with a gun shooting at
>>BATF troops from what used to be the Mt. Carmel center tower...
While talking with him on the phone, I also confirmed that he came
out of Mt. Carmel on the 23rd of March. So that's 118 days to date
locked up in jail -- 1st as a witness, then as an illegal alien,
and now they're trying to accuse him of conspiracy.
>>From the beginning, Waco has been an exercise in Government Harassment
>>-- against folks on the fringe. Which would all unravel if the larger
>>public realized that anyone who's not "pro-government" is on the fringe
>>-- in the eyes of the feds.
I can't overemphasize how risky it is to harass anyone anytime because
of the likelyhood of mistakes. It certainly should *not* be the practice
of government law enforcement. And it's worse when the victim hasn't
been even been convicted of a crime. =But= it's pure outright *evil*
when such methods are used on innocent children, mothers and fathers.
Remember the storm troopers, the phones being isolated, water/electricity
/sewage cut, childrens' bicycles and atv's crushed, incoming radio/tv broad-
casts jammed, search lights on all night, sadistic-noise blaring out,
mock raids, snipers, tear-gas, building knocked down, fire.
Why should I believe that similar methods were not being used by the
negotiators? The harassment escalated a step at a time to outright
attrocity -- a step at a time -- at best because of mistakes.
Similarly, locking up witnesses in jail for months, while treating them
like criminals, depriving them of personal effects, moving them from
prison to prison, and who knows what else, is exactly the same sick
twisted logic as physical harassment. Not burying their dead is also
the same. If they had any property or financial resources left -- no
doubt these would be confiscated, impounded, or seized (as evidence).
Others of the "surviors" including Sheila Martin, widow of attorney
Wayne Martin, who not only lost her husband and two of her children
in the inferno, but now is having to go through custody hearings to
get her remaining children back.
What has and is being done to the innocents of Mt Carmel by the authori-
ties is simply perverse.
The message is clear: "If you don't kowtow, it will be you next."
The People of Mt Carmel were sacrificed as a warning -- loud and clear.
>>And while I can stand Gays using "In Your Face Tactics," Operation
>>Rescue "Publicity Stunts," the Klan "Burning Crosses," and even war
>>protestors "Burning the Flag" (in the interest of freedom of speech),
>>I think the IRS, BATF, FBI, or even the local police using the same
>>methods against folks -- in the paid performance of their duties --
>>is pure BULL SHIT!
>>Harassment is bad enough, but if crimes were committed by the BATF,
>>FBI, or even the Justice Department -- who would bring justice now??
Neither the bureacracy nor the administration can afford the bad press
in a spending sense. How tempting it must be to cover-up, bull-doze,
tear-down, stall, and gradually inch over that fine-line between "CYA"
and "SRC" stinkin-rotten-crime. Too bad "investigative reporting" is a
movie myth. All this has shown pretty clearly that the press is pro-system
>Though I stand pretty far from the Davidian belief structure, I cannot
>in all good consciousness condone the actions of the BATF, Justice
>Dept et al. I cannot understand the lack of concern by the public.
If I weren't a follower of Christ, in the hopes that some of those who
caused this horrible attrocity would repent and do right, then the pic-
tures we all have seen of the mushroom clouds of a fusion-bomb explo-
sion would quite well depict my personal rage.
Nothing I can imagine though could come close to being one fo the guilty
standing before the JUDGE of ALL JUDGES -- when the 7 Thunders Sound.
-- J -- See Revelation Chapter 10
From: email@example.com (stephen)
Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 1 of 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:41:00 GMT
Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone
Fagan from last Saturday evening, July 24th. LF is the spokesman
David Koresh appointed to explain their faith to the public.
As best I can tell, He is being held in jail by the federal
authorities as a religious prisoner, and an example to others
of the harassment and violence which will be used against
those who don't bow down to the system.
--- Beginning of Part 1 of 3 ---
l: Mt Carmel is a situation right now where, we're not effectively here
to call people to accept the truth which we possess. We're here to call
people to make a decision.
l: There's been a lot sensationalizing, and distorting the story about
Mt Carmel. In a sense that's good, because it will capture the insincere
in their own craftiness, which allows people to come to a decision.
Which is just my point -- about ....
s: May I point out something?
l: Go ahead.
s: It's very obvious to me when they [the authorities] bull-doze, burn,
propagandize, and cover-up an issue -- it's being obscured -- it's being
l: Precisely. But at the same time, that you are able to... ahmm, see
through all of that, and realize what the government is doing... there
is a large class of personalities who don't want to know.
s: That's right.
l: In fact, irrespective of what God would do, to bring those individu-
als, individual minds, to a knowledge of The Truth, they would still
resist it, because they feel that -- "by remaining in an indecisive
position... ahmm, they will hold God in a position where The World can
not come to a conclusion, because God can not judge without people
making a decision." They *must* be in a decisive position.
l: So, ahmm... they will make a decision, whether they know it or not
against Mt Carmel, because of the distortion and the sensationalized
reporting. That has been a very prominent observation.
s: Yes, in everybody I've encountered.
l: That's right. So, ahh... the reporting itself is very much a part of
the process -- the decision making process. Even though it's distorted,
it's not something that will ultimately stop, if you understand my
l:That's not to say I have no sympathy for people. But if individuals
are not prepared to have sympathy for themselves, then it creates a
rather difficult situation.
s: Ok. Speak slowly and clearly please.
l: Yes. It creates a rather difficult situation. So at this point, ahmm,
decisions are being made, either for or against the truth that Mt Carmel
Of course, *we* have to experience the situation that we are experi-
encing at present...
s: Yes, I understand.
l: ...which is not in itself intolerable. It's bearable, since we are
seeing it in the light of the greater purposes of God, so that maybe you
can understand and endure the process. Ahh, but what I desire for
individuals who are sincere... (And I have received letters from many. I
mean only this morning a person wrote to me expressing concern, ahmm,
encouragement, and ahh, personal support. Which I found to be extremely,
ahm, how shall I say... soothing.)
s: Yeah, I'm sure. It's nice to get the feedback.
l: That's right!
s: But, at the same time I feel there's a strong desire to have a
speeding up the process. So for their welfare, I've taken the opportu-
nity to contact particular individuals of this group, in order to... to
try and explain, and highlight the fact, that we have a genuine theolog-
ical foundation for the position we hold.
Ahm, I am naturally limited; rather, we are naturally limited, as far
as we can go with that. Not that God is depending upon this in order to
accomplish His purpose. I think, the world-wide media coverage of Mt
Carmel has already accomplished that. It's just a matter of waiting for
people to be fully decided in their own minds.
l: So this is what we are dealing with at this time. The opportunity you
afford me, to actually communicate over the fax and the computer net-
works, ahm, some items of doctrine, like the last article I wrote, and
there are some letters I have, that I would like to present to you...
l: ...which may well benefit the sincere. Because, quite frankly I can
only see that it's the sincere that would be operating along the lines
that you're working along. You follow?
s: Yes. You know why? The rest are hard-hearted, hard-headed...
s: ...and jaded...
s: The Apocalypse would not have been put in the language that it was
l: Uh huh.
s: ...or it wouldn't be played out in the events it's going to be played
out in, if it weren't for the fact that's what's going to have to
happen, to get through to a lot of people.
l: Ah, it's a sad situation. I wish it were not this way.
s: And by the way it's something that comes from people having free will.
l: And, nobody really, not even God can effectively overrun that.
s: Nor *will* overrun it anyway...
s: ...as in the Promises of God. Go ahead.
l: So eventually what we're going to see is that in the conclusion,
*everyone* will acknowledge God's justice.
s: We can cite Scripture, sure -- "Every knee shall bow,"
[Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10].
So at this present moment in time, the issues as they relate to the
process of salvation, has been clearly prevented.
s: The "what" of salvation?
l: The process.
s: The process, go ahead.
l: Ahmm, there is another area I would like to direct the attention of a
lot of... or at least those individuals I have the opportunity to
communicate with, and that's to deal with the issue of "present truth."
I don't know whether you've had the opportunity to read an article by a
guy called, Richard K. Hoskins, of "The Hoskins Report?"
l: It would be very useful if you could, because I think he's done a
very, very good job of "capturing" the psychological warfare that the
United States government practiced upon us. And has been practicing
through the medium of communications, the *public* medium of communica-
tions, for at least the last 75 to 80 years.
l: It's an extremely interesting article. It's entitled, "Chairman Mao
and the Massacre in Waco," published on May 3rd, 1993. As I say, the
editor's name is Richard Kelly Hoskins.
s: Where was it published?
l: Essentially it's his own publication, I haven't actually got it...
give me a moment and I'll get you his address.
s: I can probably find the publication from my...
l: Right, he's the editor, it's called "The Hoskins Report." And the
issue is May 3rd, 1993. I think it's number 224.
l: There's another publication as well, by ahh, Project 93. I don't know
if you've every come across that yet?
s: Uhh, vaguely, go ahead.
l: Well, what's so interesting about Project 93 is an article entitled
"... ever wondered" (???), actually it's a booklet, and it's entitled,
"Ever Wondered Why?"
s: "As I wondered why" ??
l: "Ever Wondered Why?"
s: "Ever Wondered Why?"
l: Yeah and it covers developments in the financial arena as they relate
to the United States, in it's alliance with the United Nations. It
brings to view a very, very important development that's taking place at
this moment, which correlates to events spoken of by the prophet, in
Revelation 13 through chapter 17.
I make reference to this simply because of the fact of ahmm, as I
mentioned, the fact of Present Truth, which identifies where we are
along the process of salvation. I find that this book by, ahm, Project
93, actually affords a beautiful grasp of the conceptual... the con-
cepts... the conceptual background to understand those texts in Revela-
tion 13 and 17.
s: 13 & 17 ??
l: That's right.
l: Which refers to, in chapter 17, remember the ahmm, 7th and 8th ahh,
beast? [see Rev. 17:11] And in Revelation chapter 13 the two horned
breast, and the image to the beast that was created?
s: But you mentioned the 7th and the 8th beasts?
l: That's right, in revelation chapter 17.
l: Those issues are to do with Present Truth, and I would like to have
been able to get in more depth into some of the symbolic language, which
prior to my leaving Mt Carmel on March 23rd, I had spent some time with
l: And I can see the reasons why, even more clearly now, as I see the
developments taking place, in the international arena.
s: Say again that last part.
l: Yes. As I see the developments currently taking place in the interna-
s: In the international arena.
l: I would like to be able to discuss those with you in detail.
Ah, one of the things I want is that ah, the terms be accurate, but
even in context it does not necessarily communicate the spirit behind
the words that are written.
s: Let's talk about that.
l: That is very important. That is, it's because of The Spirit, that is
through The Spirit, that one receives context the context, for what is
written. You follow?
s: Receives the context?
l: Yeah. The Spirit illuminates the written word. And when I write a
book, or when I write an article -- a person reads that in light of
their own understanding. Do you follow?
l: It is very difficult to try and separate one's own perceptions, and
to try and grasp the perceptions and meanings behind the words, senten-
ces and paragraphs, of the letter. Unfortunately it is very difficult to
bridge that. There is that limitation in language, that makes it so dif-
ficult to address that.
s: That's because you can't speak with what we have available to us,
which is the indwelling Spirit. [cf. John 16:13]
s: The requirement there is for The Groom, (The Husband), to do the
How does one deal with that? I really don't know other than direct...
direct communication. As you can see, my present situation prevents
that. So, the articles I write, the information that I transmit, is as
limited as possible, yet is ahmm, I was going to say "as potent as
possible," but that's very difficult to assess.
l: So, what I hope is that (as I continue to write articles), my hope is
that people will continue to respond with any question they feel may
arise from those articles, and I can try it by first of all understand-
ing the premise that they're coming from.
Please, use the postal services, and I suggest short one page letters with
sase included, or a phone number for a collect call. Livingstone is pre-
sently imprisoned at McLennan County Jail, 510 Columbus, Waco, Tx. 76701
s: Livingstone, it would help to start out with the ah, simple "yes/no"
[questions], that nobody seems willing to approach you with, for in-
stance [concerning] the ah, what first and foremost must be on a lot of
people's minds is: "Who is Jesus Christ to you?", "Was David Koresh the
Messiah?" These types of questions.
s: That is the way to catch their attention.
l: Ok, I understand that, ah, that concept. The thing is,that even that
presents it's own problems. Let me try to address that question that you
ask as a ahm... means of identifying some of the problems.
David Koresh being Christ. The first question I would be forced to
ask you is what is your understanding of Christ?
s: My understanding of Christ is the physical manifestation of God.
l: Right, indeed that's true, God in the flesh. Ok. The physical mani-
festation -- God in the Flesh. Part of that concept is of the Melchize-
dek priesthood, that ahm, Paul sought to address, in the Hebrews.
s: Yes. [Heb. 5-7]
l: Which Psalms 110 develops. [and Genesis 14:18]
s: Psalms 110, you say?
l: 110 right. Which goes back to the time of Abraham.
l: 2000 years ago there was also a manifestation of that same priesthood
when Christ came into the earth. But as John the apostle pointed out, it
was impossible for the darkened human mind to *comprehend* [cf. John
1:5] this reality, because Christ is really a principle, The Word of
God, or God's thoughts expressed.
l: And the problem here is that humanity, in it's dullness of percep-
tion, finds it extremely difficult to appreciate or comprehend that. And
that was demonstrated 2000 years ago which resulted in his death, which
from my premise, having been a recipient of the knowledge contained in
the 7-SEALS, I conclude the same thing occurred at Mt Carmel.
So, when faced with an issue in respect to that question, I can only
address it from the premise from which you come from. I can present
s: Then let me help.
l: Go ahead.
s: In the sense, we know that from Revelation 19, that "The Marriage
Supper of the Lamb" is referred to. The question is, "Who is being
married?" We know in Revelation 19 that The Word of God is The Lamb.
s: So, who's the Church? The Church appears in Revelation 12. In other
places in the New Testament, we know that the Church is made up of the
Body of believers. Now here's a mystery -- the Head of the Church is
l: Uh huh.
s: ...however, Christ is also the First Born of that union. That union
is between The Word and The Spirit, (elsewhere called The Comforter).
s: Now we are given in Acts, The Spirit, to indwell, as a gift, if we
ask, by God. And it comes to us as "The Nurturer."
l: Ok, ok. Let me hold that, let me hold that point. Let's develop that.
s: Go for it.
l: We are given that indwelling Spirit if we ask for it, ok. What is
your perception of that indwelling Spirit in terms of, "when you ask for
it." Most people identify it as some kind of feeling.
s: Most do. They expect to get the tingles, or the shivers, or some sort
l: Exactly. But the truth about it is, that spirit was the Spirit that
motivated Christ when he was upon the earth 2000 years ago.
s: That spirit is... ??
l: The Spirit that was in the flesh 2000 years ago.
l: Now that Spirit, in Luke chapter 23, when Christ was crucified, that
Spirit was *commended* into the hands of The Father. [Luke 23:46] You
s: Yes! Into The Word.
l: Into the... right.
So, in Revelation chapter 4, when John gets taken to heaven... yes?
He goes to heaven, a door is opened, he sees a judgement. He sees One
who sat on the Throne. Now, the one that sat on the throne is surrounded
by 24 elders. Now, in chapter 5 it highlights that in the right hand of
the One who sat on the Throne -- is The Book -- sealed with 7 seals.
This correlates with Luke when he said, "Father, into thy hands I
commend my spirit."
Telephone company recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING."
[Though LF calls me collect, the calls time out after 30 minutes
s: You wanta call back?
So, what we have there was that, that Spirit, which Christ sought to
express -- which was rejected -- was commended into the hands of The
Father. And then you go up to the [tape garbled, sounds like "sentry"]
as John did, we see on the right hand -- the Book, Sealed with Seven
Seals. So that Spirit is now written. Do you follow?
s: The Spirit is now embodied in writing?
l: Right. In written form -- The Book.
s: The question is, "What is The Book?" Is it The Book of Life?
l: [both talking, tape garbled]
l: In Revelation 22, after The Lamb in chapter 6, begins to loose The
Seals, it states that He's going to come to earth with that Book, sealed
with 7 seals. That's His reward...
l: ...to give to every man.
This is where Mt Carmel came in, in that David Koresh was teaching
the book. The question is, "What is the Book?" Well, in Revelation
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (stephen)
Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 2 of 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:44:00 GMT
Transcript of phone conversation between myself, and Livingstone
Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th.
--- Beginning of Part 2 of 3 ---
s: ...Operator I accept the charges.
Yes, I'm here Livingstone.
l: Right. We're dealing with The Book. When Christ came 2000 years ago,
that Spirit of God, which is really the expressed thought of God in the
flesh, was made available to mankind in a flesh form, something they can
identify with. When Christ was killed that Spirit was commended into the
hands of The Father. John looked up to see the judgement, and saw in the
hand of The Father, a Book, sealed with 7 seals.
In Revelation 22, He's to return again, with the intention of commu-
nicating the contents of that Spirit. Now that Spirit is Life -- Eternal
Life. That's what they rejected at The Cross.
Now, the thing about it is, that the issue is, "What is that Book?"
Well the whole scene of Christ's returning is depicted in summary form
in Revelation, chapter 10-11.
s: Summary form?
l: In summary form, yes. The actual details of it, is the subject matter
of the 7 Seals, but it's summarized in those 2 chapters, 10 and 11, of
Revelation. You see an Angel, a strong Angel, that comes to the earth,
with a Book -- opened. That's of course, the Book that was in the hand
of The Father, in Revelation chapter 5. Now, in the 7th verse, ahmm, it
is stated clearly that the voice of the 7th angel, when He shall begin
to sound, the mystery of God, which is the content of the 7-Seals. And
note the statement, "the mystery of God." Everybody seeks to know God,
but the mystery is contained in the 7-Seals. The mystery of what God
really is. That is the essential knowledge that is missing from humani-
Now, as I stated, the voice of the 7th Angel, when He begins to
sound, the mystery of God will be *finished*...
s: Yes. I recall.
l: ...as He hath declared, to his servants, The Prophets. Do you follow?
s: I understand.
l: Now the content of that Book was already declared to The Prophets.
The 7-Seals, if you go back to the summary that is given of the Seals,
as the Lamb opens them in chapter 6 onwards; you will see certain
Now, as I mentioned before to you, people have sought to interpret
that information. Do you follow?
s: With their human understanding...
s: ...rather than with the Mind of God, which is Scripture.
l: Precisely. Yes, you got the point.
The fact is that only One can open that information in the first
place. The Lamb, yes?? Mankind can not do it, because you're dealing
with information which is synonymous with the Mind of God.
Now can the human mind comprehend the things of God? Being in it's
humanity, it's impossible. Therefore it has to be revealed to him.
Hence, the only way it can be done is for Christ, or rather Christ being
The Word, the expressed thoughts of God, to come into the realm of
s: Now let me... let me, I don't want to throw you off, but I do want to
ask two very important questions.
l: Go ahead.
s: When Christ... when Jesus came, Jesus, as it was written -- He made
that reference very, very often -- "as it is written"...
s: He knew from early on, from a very young time -- The Scriptures...
s: ...very well. The Word indwelled Him.
l: Precisely, yes.
s: And, this is a lesson. The lesson we find that also happened to
Koresh. The parallel is there. The Word working in Koresh...
l: Exactly! As you're bringing it up, you're bringing it out. Christ
could only quote Scripture 2000 years ago. And a lot of the Scriptures
have to be received purely by faith, even though at the time, they did
not meet the perceptions of the human mind. Because, really they were
written from the premise of the eternal mind. You follow?
s: Oh, yes!
l: So humanity can not of itself comprehend them. What humanity does is
to receive The Scripture by faith. Having, receiving...In the process of
receiving a progressive knowledge of the Revealed Truth, declared as
Scriptural -- the human mind will be elevated to the place where it can
comprehend *over time* that information.
s: Yes. There's a gestation period.
l: Precisely. Humanity has actually been taken out of it's *human*
thinking, and elevated to the divine thinking, which is what 2nd Peter
talks about in 1-4. Through the knowledge of God...
s: You say in 2nd Peter 1...
l: 2nd Peter chapter 1 verses 1-4.
s: ok [The Promises of God]
l: Through the knowledge of God, as revealed in the Scriptures, humanity
becomes a partaker of the divine nature. What a person thinks -- is what
s: Ok, I hear that. Now, I'm wondering this, ok?
l: Go ahead.
s: It's clear to me that there is a marriage.
s: In The Marriage of The Lamb...
s: ... here the Bride comes. Now to me, (this may be my mind), in other
words I may be reading into it, or I may be inspired in this, I don't
know. But as best I can tell, The Marriage of The Word, The Marriage of
The Lamb (same entity) -- with The Spirit, The Bride, which is The
Comforter -- is accomplished in each one of us.
l: Right. As you received, *received* that Spirit.
Let me go back to show you where the basis of that concept of the
marriage comes from.
l: It goes back to the book of Genesis. When God created Adam, Adam was
a lifeless form, alright?
s: Yes, clay! Dust of the earth.
l: Exactly. What gave him life, was when the Breath of God, entered him.
That breath joined with the clay -- in the actual marriage -- the prin-
ciple. You follow?
l: Now...ahm, The Breath itself, or The Light, (which is what John is
referring to in John chapter 1), the light that lighteth everyman that
cometh into the world, is to have an expression. It's not just light as
we see light. There is detail to it. There is form, feature. There is
ah, how can I explain it? It has a definition; it has meaning, it has
expression, it's got autonomy. Do you understand what I'm talking about?
s: I think I do. I would not have put it only in terms of light, which
is a type of signal...
l: Uh huh.
s: ...but the word, which is also a type of signal. For instance, when
some very powerful statement is made, such as "Love your enemies"... Ok?
l: Uh huh.
s: And that thought, that word, that signal, orders, I mean structures,
how people act.
s: It structures matter itself.
s: Without that ordering we'd be just like the Moon...
s: ...pure dust.
l: Ok. So you can see that the Word expressed has ahmm -- creative po-
tential. It has ahhh, I'm still struggling to find a word to express...
Well if you look at humanity, as separate from divinity, (because
really, what humanity fails to appreciate at any given time is that
there is an element of divinity in it)...
s: That's right.
l: ... it's just that -- it's been *blocked*. It's not allowed to take
expression, or give expression within the human personage. Had it been
allowed to do so, then humanity would conform to it.
s: "Conform" is a very telling word there.
l: Oh, . When I say conform, the reason why it is not allowed
in humanity en masse to give general expression, is because of the human
l: The Mind of God, or The Will of God, is expressed in that word. Human
beings have the freedom to actually allow or surrender it's will, to the
divine will, or they can continue in the light of their own understand-
ing, which is really darkness. It extends purely from the clay.
s: It extends from the...?
l: The clay. The body, the lusts of the body. Most of the reasoning,
most of the constructions and institutions established by man, are not
in themselves possessed of anything divine. They are basically based
upon the lusts of man; like for example, there are 3 major ones: food,
reproduction and [maintaining] life. Most of the institutions that exist
in society are based purely upon these 3 lusts.
s: Yes, very much so. But this then is what we expect of an organism
with a 5 pound brain -- 5 pounds of meat.
l: Right, exactly. Exactly.
But there is a divine... the ability for a divine element within
humanity. Unfortunately in this day and age, with its degeneracy,
debaseness, that element has been blocked, (and it's unable to give
expression to itself), somehow internally, from within man. And it's for
that reason as it is now, there was a necessity for it to come on the
outside. Do you follow?
s: Yes, as a leadership principle.
l: Precisely. To draw men to a knowledge of that which is within. That's
why Christ kept on saying, "The Kingdom of God is within you." And He
was trying to bring it out, to bring man to an appreciation of that
The fact is, to be quite frank -- God is thought!
s: Ok. You say, "God is thought?"
l: Thought! And the expression of that thought is THE WORD, which is
l: And the manifestation of, the embodiment of, thought expressed -- is
l: So for man to throw out God, is really actually dishonoring himself.
In the process, you can see, you'd become debased, degenerate to the
level of beasts, which is really what we have today.
s: Yes! No Spirit indwelling.
l: That's right!
s: Like a machine, there's nothing there.
s: Like a whore, there's nobody home.
s: Like a mercenary, who do things just for the external...
l: And until the Thoughts of God, once again re-establish in man those
Thoughts, (and those Thoughts are written in The Book, sealed with 7-
Seals)... until those Thoughts are re-established then man does not have
God within him. All he has is the potential...
l: ... to have God.
Now, that's what the 7-Seals were designed to address. That's what
that Spirit that Christ was trying to give 2000 years ago, which was
rejected... and bear in mind in Luke 23, I think verse 34, "Father,
forgive them; for they *know* not what they do." They're in a state of
l: And until they receive that Spirit which was commended in the hand of
the Father, they can not have that element of God within them, which
become the directing principle of humanity. So, then what happens is you
begin to have external government.
All men were supposed to be governed from within -- they were their
own kings and priests, but now we have an external form of government,
like what you can see in the United States probably, and what is devel-
oping on an international scale, via the United Nations, is oppressive.
And there is no way to stop that. Not until that Spirit, which is what
God is, that Thought, enters humanity.
But the current thinking of man, which is born of the flesh is
temporal, and when the body dies it will die too. But the eternal
Thought of God (which is the Spirit which Christ sought to give, which
is placed in the hand of The Father in the form of The Book Sealed With
7-Seals) is eternal. To receive God you are actually receiving The
Eternal, an eternal spirit which enables you to live forever.
The problem here is that uhm, rather not the problem, but whether
someone can be saying[?] that more closely, ahh, the life substance of
humanity is actually the thought of God, in man. It's your thought that
gives you motivation, your life-substance. It is your thought, rather
the more thought you have, the more life you have. You follow?
s: So far, so good. I'm curious about, I know that in a union, in a
l: Uh huh.
s: ... the same flesh must join, ok?
s: So, I'm comfortable with the...
l: Let me try to address that point.
l: The spirit that is in man, is that which is separate from the Spirit
of God, God's Spirit. And it's born... the human spirit is born, as I
mentioned, of the lusts of man, and is essentially a homosexual spirit.
Do you follow what I'm saying? It's of itself.
s: It's of self, yes.
l: That's right it's homosexual.
s: Yes, it's for-self, of-self, yes.
l: Ahh, what you might have had a tendency to do, is uhhh... you see
that selfishness expressed in man, and everything that is consumed on
this earth (even other people) is consumed for the purpose of self.
Now, the Spirit of God in man predominating (which is really the Will
of God) --
facilitates trust, and all those other positive virtues
(above all *selflessness*, as was demonstrated on the
Cross and also here) as demonstrated here at Mt Carmel,
(where the people were prepared to surrender their existence
for the Truth which they hold),
-- is that Spirit which is associated with God as a Thought,
guiding their thoughts.
s: The world will ask do you mean suicide?
l: Well, we've got to go back to Christ. I can address that simply by
saying *no*, it was not suicide. But I'd like you to see it in the
context of Christ 2000 years ago.
Now Christ knew that His course of action was eventually going to end
up with him being killed, in some way, shape or form. Because the capi-
tal form of punishment at that time was the Cross, it was the inevitable
one that was going to be chosen. Can you see that?
l: Would you conclude from that, that Christ was the harbinger of his
s: If He knew full well that if He continued in the path He was in, yes,
it would result in His...
l: His death.
s: Yes, His death.
l: Do you conclude that His was a suicide from that situation?
s: You understand the world want's to see it as a suicide because that's
l: Precisely. And that's what they should have concluded about Christ
2000 years ago, yes?? From the same premise.
Well, the truth about it is that I know that the sincere of heart
will be able to see, of a truth, that this has got nothing to do with
suicide. The thing about it is, that along about 2000 years ago, say in
1st century Palestine, had they received Christ, then He would not have
had to die, yes?
s: Oh, absolutely.
l: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." That forgive-
ness would not have been needed, because they would have received what
Christ had to give them.
It's a similar situation here. I mean David sought to present the 7-
Seals, that is clear to the sincere, they can see that.
s: Some people will have a hard time with seeing the 7-Seals as being a
separate book than the Bible.
l: I did not conclude it to be a separate book than the Bible. What I'm
saying is that, that same sealed book, was the same sealed book that
Daniel, in chapters 10 through 12, was dealing with.
l: In Daniel chapter 12, it was told by the Angel that brought Daniel to
Elijah... and incidently in Daniel chapter 9, Daniel was making refer-
ence to specifically the book of Jeremiah, the prophet, but also mention
was made of the other prophets, and indeed Moses.
Now, it was out of those books, that the Angel was teaching Daniel,
the information recorded in chapters 11-12. And at the conclusion,
Daniel was told to close the book, and to seal it until the time of the
end. So, at the time of the end, the book will be unsealed.
But this was the same book Ezekiel had to deal with, and you'll find
that in chapter 10, well it's... yes in chapter 10, the latter part.
Ahhh, when John was told to take the book, it was going to be sweet as
honey in his mouth, and bitter in his belly; that was the same thing
that Ezekiel had to deal with in chapter 4 and chapter 5 of Ezekiel. You
s: Precisely, yes.
l: Now, the issue is, that this book, that was actually in heaven is
somewhat different than the book is on the earth, although the informa-
tion is noted in the Scriptures. Do you follow?
s: Are saying that the Bible is a physical manifestation of the spiritu-
l: Precisely! That's right. Good.
In other words, as stated very clearly in Peter, the prophets which
comprise the Bible, the information that they wrote was via the illumi-
nation of the Spirit, yes? So they speak, so all the prophets speak of
this one message, and that information is contained in what we call the
Old Testament. Effectively.
Because really, the New Testament is just a record of an event,
Christ's coming 2000 years ago -- to give that Spirit. That's all it
was. The primary purpose of Christ 2000 years ago was to give His Spirit.
Now, He didn't even get a chance to be accepted as a messenger from
God. Do you follow?
s: Yes, very much so.
l: For that reason, He never communicated that Spirit. If the world
would not accept Him as a messenger from God, then obviously they were
not gonna accept what He said. And eventually they will not accept the
One Who sent Him. Which He constantly ahh, ahm, made mention of, in the
Gospel of John.
s: Yes, "if you reject the one who comes in my name...
l: So if they...
s: ...certainly you're going to reject Me when I come too," would
be God's point. Yes.
l: So, if they rejected him, and as I mentioned, 2000 years ago they did
reject him, but the question is from that time forward the life-force
that has facilitated the continuation of humanity has been basically
this statement, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
We've been living on that. That is not Life, that is just grace.
Life is as John 6:63 says, "the words I speak ... they are spirit...
they are life." And that Spirit was committed into the hands of the
Father. So, until we receive that spirit in man, he does not possess
life, he's merely living on grace. But grace is not an eternal thing --
it has an end.
Now the thing is that while humanity was in the position of where
they were resting or living on the basis of "Father, forgive them; for
they know not what they do" Christ was caught in a trap. Because as long
as humanity was in a state of ignorance, He could not judge the world.
s: The Law originally came to ensure that they were not in a state of
l: But with the statement, `Father, forgive them, for there ignorance' -
- If God was to honor that statement, He'd have to forgive them. But
there had to be a way for God to communicate this truth to break that
deadlock. To invalidate that law, `Forgive them, for they don't know
what they do,' and this was done at Mt Carmel.
Inasmuch as, once I sit here and speak to you, Stephen -- you are
aware of the 7-Seals, yes?
s: I am aware of the 7-Seals, and I think I can point to the 7-Seals in
the New Testament. Now, that may be different than what you understand.
l: Precisely. Well actually, the 7-Seals are not... other than what is
recorded in Paul, rather "in John" -- the 7-Seals are not in the New
Testament. There are allusions that Paul makes for example, or allusive
statements that are made in The Parables, that Christ speaks of. But I'm
afraid the detail is far, far greater, than you can imagine.
l: The actual detail, or the context of the 7-Seals is contained in the
Old Testament. David did give a basic reference to specific books, like
for example: Psalms, Zechariah, Hosea, Ezekiel with respect to the 1st 4
Seals. But then to deal with the other 3, which they are so extensive,
in the Old Testament, ahmm, the information contained in the Old Testa-
ment, that it is very difficult to actually bring them to the perception
of humanity without changing the context within which humanity operates.
In other words, humanity, within it's human thinking can not appreci-
ate the 7-Seals. No more than they could appreciate Christ, 2000 years
ago. No more than they can appreciate what David is really about.
I'm trying to be as frank and as truthful as possible, and I hope you
can see that in my context Stephen.
s: It's necessary. Keep going.
l: So I'm faced with a situation here that it's very... I can't communi-
cate the 7-Seals. That's outside of the realms of my operation. I can
speak in respect to their origin, where they can be found. I can show
you the consistency of doctrine, that was shown to us as they relate to
the 7-Seals, to demonstrate, and beyond any doubt, that David Koresh
taught us the 7-Seals.
It's in the context of the 7-Seals that we are now living. Because
really, the 7-Seals basically highlight the Purposes of God as they
relate to this world. That's what we're dealing with. But the marriage
that God is teaching is a union between the divine and the human. That
is The Marriage...
l: ... and it's Principle, and it's Expressed Form.
It's the tantamount to humanity becoming equal with God.
s: As "Children" though?
l: Well no. It goes beyond that. It... it goes beyond that.
Remember when Christ came -- in the flesh -- He was depicted as the
Son of God. Right?
l: Outside of the flesh, in His divinity -- He is God. You follow?
s: Spiritually, and in the eternal present, Yes.
Eventually, we were supposed to transcend the flesh. Remember,
...well actually, I can't say remember, because I doubt very much
whether you were there during the Garden of Eden. But the thing is, Adam
and Eve were created in the likeness of God. Ok. As children. And as
children, they were confined, because of the flesh they were housed in,
the clay pots. It's that clay pot, to which they were contained in just
facilitated the process of maturing in humanity, The Will of God, and
the divine purpose. So that they themselves would become God.
That's where we get the statement in Psalms 82, where he talks about
God goes among the gods, and `know ye not that ye are gods?' Christ men-
tioned it Himself, 2000 years ago, which caused great consternation
among the Pharisees.
s: Well it should. Now let me, lemme interject... and I'm going to ask a
l: Go ahead.
s: ...because in my walk with Jesus, I've found that anything that has
any form of seduction in it is usually of the devil.
l: I agree with you.
s: It's a seduction, or so it seems to me, to be offered the Godhood.
l: "It's a seduction to be offered the Godhood." Well, here's the thing.
Let me just try to demonstrate it on the most basic premise of humanity.
You have the family unit which consists first of all of a mother and
s: You have something human?
l: The family unit.
s: The family unit.
l: The family unit, which is headed by a mother and a father. They have
l: Eventually those children themselves grow into becoming mothers and
fathers themselves, alright?
s: Oh, yes.
l: The only difference between those children and the mothers and
fathers which bare them, is that the mothers and fathers were first...
l: ... in their status of mother and fatherhood.
s: Yes, very much.
l: That is the only difference ultimately that was supposed to exist,
between God and his children. And anyway, they too ere to obtain unto
that position. I mean listen, there's a great big universe out there...
s: Yes, huge.
l: ... and that universe is for His Children.
s: That's right.
l: And there are going to be provinces that they populate with their own
creations. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?
s: Ah, yes -- it's grand.
But now I need to make another hard question.
l: Go ahead.
s: We know that the end-time comes when the son-of-perdition, when
satan-incarnate, stands up, as he's tried to do before, in caesar and
pharaoh, and others -- as the world ruler -- and says "I am God."
You see this in Isaiah chapter 14 and Ezekiel 28. These 2 chapters
develop this concept very well. Now, I can understand that from what has
been reported in Mt Carmel, someone could perceive Mt Carmel this way.
That is interesting... that we should have a lone person, like what
we're dealing with here, saying that he is God, or rather, he didn't say
he was God, and in fact he didn't say he was Christ, which was what was
reported. What David actually said was "let me address for you the 7-
Seals." In other words, the 7-Seals, as Revelation chapter 1:1 says,
speaking about what God gave... what The Father gave to The Son, or to
In Revelation 1, it says it's a revelation of Christ. So if you know
the book, you would be able to identify Christ in the earth. You under-
Telephone Company Recording: "ATTENTION, ONE MINUTE REMAINING."
l: For he's the One revealing The Book. You follow?
s: The One who is able to unseal The Book, is Christ operating in the
l: That's right.
And it's true, from a knowledge of Him unveiling The Book, can you
make a judgement of whether He's Christ.
Which is what I was privileged, along with the others who are with me
right now, to experience, during the 4 1/2 to 5 years that I was listen-
ing to David, during His teachings at Mt Carmel.
s: Livingstone, how would you explain... and you're going to have to
call back. How would you explain then, Christ was killed a second time.
l: How would I explain He was killed?
Well, let me ask you. How many times did Moses strike the rock? Can
you recall? One of the rocks during the wilderness journey, was a symbol
From: email@example.com (stephen)
Subject: Mt Carmel and Faith // pt 3 of 3
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 06:46:00 GMT
Transcript of phone conversation between myself and Livingstone
Fagan from Saturday evening, July 24th.
--- Beginning of Part 3 of 3 ---
s: I'm with you.
l: I ask you a question before we got cut off, "How many times did Moses
strike the rock?"
s: You know, I honestly don't recall.
l: Alright. Well the story goes back to the Wilderness Wandering, when
Moses actually struck the rock twice... [Numbers 20]
l: ...which was an indication of what was to take place.
[1st Corinthians 10, note verse 4]
s: That's looking for water in the wilderness?
l: That's right, "in the wilderness." And the wilderness represented a
*dry land* with *no trees*. A desert -- a darkness, effectively.
And you remember also in John, there was a statement made by Christ
himself, to the effect that ah, in regard to what was being done to him,
`if they do these things in a green tree, can you imagine what they'll
do in a dry tree.'
s: That's right. [actually Luke 23:31]
l: You remember that statement?
s: That's a good point. Yes, scripturally that's a very good point. Go
l: There was also highlighted, when the children of Israel was traveling
through Egypt to Canaan... And note, I make reference to the Law of
Moses, and the writings of Moses too, because there is much that is
contained in there that pertains to this reality, just as though in The
But, do you remember the time that God permitted the serpents, to
bite them? To address the bite, because when the serpents bit them they
actually died. But uhh, Moses was instructed to actually take a brass...
to make a serpent of brass, and put it up on a stick.
s: Yes, I think it's called "sherutan."
l: Right. Well, what's intriguing about this is -- why would God choose
a brass *serpent*? You know what the symbol of the serpent is don't you...
l: ...going back to the Garden of Eden. I t's supposed to be satan. You
will also notice, that ahh, God did cause Moses (and I'll come back to
that other statement) God did cause Moses to ahm, employ his rod, which
turned into a serpent...
l: ...which ate up the other serpents of the other magicians. [Exodus 7]
In going back to the "brass serpent on a stick," the serpent is a
symbol of the devil. [cf. Numbers 21] But what is brass a symbol of?
Well, that goes back to the book Daniel, that talked about an image in
volume two [ie chapter 2], which had a head of gold, breastplate made
out of silver...
[In text it's "arms of silver." Over the phone there were loud noises
making it hard to hear.]
...belly of brass, and uhhh, that's right... belly of brass, thigh of
iron, etc. etc. going all the way down.
[Actually, belly and thighs(sides) of brass, and legs of iron. see
verses 31 through 45.]
Now, the brass, as we know, represented the kingdom of the grecia... of
Greece. Do you follow?
s: Brass was Greece?
l: You'll have to read the story in Daniel 2.
l: The brass was Greece. Now what's Greece noted for -- its *philoso-
s: Very much so.
l: ... and sophistry.
s: Sophistry, and eventually to today's time, it's logic, and worship of
l: Precisely, "human reason" at that.
l: Ok. Now, the objective of the brass-serpent, was that Christ was to
be lifted up, but there was another aspect of that lifting up -- in what
was visible -- that is to say the serpent. There was supposed to be
something about that which is contrary to the perceptions of men...
[The situation arises around complaints about lack of substantial food
So this was a maxim that was going to take place, just like 2000 years
ago when they expected Christ to come as this, this uhhh, I don't know,
this... this messiah that was going to destroy the Romans with some kind
of army of some sort. But what would be the point to destroy the Romans
in front of a kingdom that is still built upon the feelings of humanity?
s: Well, He could have done it! He could have called legions of angels
down to destroy the Romans, and He chose not to.
s: Because Christ came, because Jesus was focussed on love, and grace
extends from His love. Much as Moses... when God sought to uh, destroy
the children for their wickedness in the desert; Moses said "blot my
name out..." [Exodus 32:32, Numbers 14]
l: Right. Yes.
He [Christ] could not set up a kingdom. The Jews at the time, in
their thinking, were no different than the Romans. So, the Romans were
left to continue ruling...
s: Yes, if Christ had come in power, as Jesus, then it would have killed
l: Oh, exactly.
If he were to come in power right now, to humanity... (ok, we'll tie
it into the event of Mt Carmel) the same thing would've happened,
because christianity today is *no* different. It's a known fact. I mean,
you observe what we in the western world call christianity. It's just a
part of this political process. For God to come down at this moment --
humanity would be destroyed, because of it's so... sinfulness. I mean
right now humanity has no perception of the meaning of the book of Reve-
s: Are there exceptions?
l: At this present moment, no.
I used to be a minister before I was ahh, introduced to David...
s: Let me ask you a question about that -- do you have divinity degrees?
l: I have a Masters in Theology.
s: Go ahead.
l: When I came, David even showed me the fact that, there was to be
*somebody* to come into the earth (as Revelation 22 pointed out) where
even the concept of The Judgement, as declared by John... I have to
admit, that that knowledge had escaped me!
[Rev. 22:17,16,2 and cp. Numbers 14 esp. verse 21]
And I have to admit, that outside of that knowledge, everything else
that I had and was taught, was of very little significance. Remember,
the last book given to man was the book of Revelation. In truth, you can
preach everything you want, about Jesus Christ being the Savior, but
without the knowledge of Present Truth which depicts to us where we
should be in relationship to the Divine Purpose...
s: In the last times.
l: Yeah. ...then it's of no significance. Christ is of no significance
without a knowledge of what He's doing.
s: Well, one of the things that was always apparent to me was, anyone
who was drawing upon the material from the Gospels, and drawing upon the
material from Revelation, was pointing to those things which dealt very
frankly, and very definitely, with Jesus Christ. Now that comes from my
background of course.
l: Let me make a point in respect to that. You recall in Matthew 24,
Christ makes a statement to the disciples that "many shall come in my
name..." saying that I am Christ. Not saying that they are Christ, but
saying that the person who lived 2000 years ago is Christ, "and shall
deceive many." [Matt. 24:5]
Now, that's exactly what's happening today. Virtually every Christian
denomination teaches that the person who lived 2000 years ago is Christ,
l: Now, that's what Christ warned about, in His statement that they will
deceive many. In essence the deception is this, they do not teach *the
Message of Christ*, but rather teach -- *His historical presence*. Do
s: Yes, yes. They do not do His commandments.
l: Well, in not teaching the Message of Christ, what He came to say,
from "focussing people's minds on the fact that He lived 2000 years
ago", and "establishing church denominations," and yet, these denomina-
tion churches doubtless are the basis of this. So that particularly, a
denomination can be isolated from others, which merely just sets up a
situation where rites, and buildings, and rituals, and tithes, and all
the rest of it -- is not the essence of Christ's purpose 2000 years ago.
And to that degree, there is deception. Furthermore, it's interesting to
s: Deception on who's part?
l: On the part of humanity...
s: Yes. Yes I know. I needed to ask the question, go ahead.
l: They're deceived. Without the knowledge of The Message Christ came to
give, which in Luke chapter 3 makes clear, mankind was in need of. And
that knowledge which is His Spirit was commended into the hand of The
Father. Without that knowledge, then mankind is lost back there 2000
years ago, on what is recorded by the uhh, the Gospels.
But the truth about it, no one really needs another human being to
come and teach them what is so plainly stated in the Gospels.
s: That's right.
l: And certainly, you don't need to pay someone to teach you that.
s: That's right too.
l: I think it would be easier for you to spend your money gaining a
basic knowledge of written English. Or developing your reading skills,
and read it for yourself.
s: There's a better coin-in-trade than money, anyway.
Ok. Livingstone on the point of Jesus, who Jesus is. Jesus went
through a very unique experience, and there will be those who want to
ask how Jesus plays into this?
From my perspective, what I want to ask because this is an expression
of my belief... Jesus became part of God, in a sense Jesus became united
with, uhm, joined with God... After the resurrection.
l: Ok, let me demonstrate.
l: That's true, but there was an experience while He was on earth...
l: ...that made Him One with God before that...
l: The uhm, 40 days in the wilderness...
s: Was it that Livingstone, or was it The Baptism?
l: Well, actually it was that. The Baptism was significant as an outward
show. To those who were receptive enough to see the right things, like
John and those around him.
s: Well, didn't we have two Manifestations occurring at that point, in
other words, we saw the Spirit of God come into Christ at The Baptism.
However, in The Wilderness, what was given to Christ, was it The Word?
l: Well, in The Wilderness, let me present it this way -- can a human
person, a human body, live for 40 days without food? No. Christ went in
there... I mean up to that point He had come to appreciate, that ahh, He
was divine. But we have to prove that. Cause if The Word dwelt in Him,
It most essentially means that He was eternal... so, that He could go to
The Wilderness, He could live 40 days without food, and yet He would not
die. That was a test for Him. That He had appointed to complete, that He
was indeed called of God.
s: Now you understand, many will say that's not scriptural.
s: In respect to there being any evidence of Him not taking food during
l: Well, ok, I can accept that statement. If people find difficulty with
that, then I'd have to use something else to demonstrate to them, the
truth of that. But... I mean, 40 days in the wilderness -- where's He
going to get food from?
s: Well, we have the instance with hmm, was it the prophet Isaiah that
was fed by ravens, and we have the instance of manna for those on The
Exodus. Are those [some examples] that would be pointed out.
[I was wrong. It was Elijah fed by the ravens.]
l: But there is nothing to prove that. One thing that's certain is that
while He was in the wilderness, and satan came to him, one of the things
that satan *tempted* Him on was (as you know) -- food.
s: Yes. [Matthew 4 and Luke 4, esp. verse 3&4 in both cases]
l: Now, why would he do that, if Christ was being taken care of as far a
food was concerned? It certainly wouldn't be a temptation.
s: Yes. He had to hunger.
l: I'm not absolutely sure, but I understand that He was led away into
the wilderness to be tempted. Now it states in the text itself that he
was a hungered. [Matt. 4:2 and Luke 4:2] The point I'm trying to make
from that I think you perceive already -- is the fact that Christ needed
proof, of His divinity, whilst He was in humanity. And it had to be that
way, because of the fact that if He was totally 100% ahmm, aware of His
divinity, then there would be questions as to whether or not He was fit
to be a Redeemer for humanity. Remember the statements about His being
in all points tempted as we were?
s: Yes. [Hebrews 4:15]
l: And his being able to succour us?
s: Yes. [Hebrews 2:18]
Many point to that, to Him being tempted in affairs of sex as well.
l: Precisely. That had to be. Otherwise, there is questions about His
Now there was the former argument, that, "Well, it's alright being
tempted...", and it's fine, to be able to meet humanities needs, for
those of us who have only suffered temptations. But as men have fallen
as a consequence of temptation, ah, satan would argue, and quite reason-
ably, that all human beings who have in fact fallen in temptation, are
his. And outside of the redeeming, or the salvation process of God, then
we'll have to come down a step lower to address that argument, yes?
s: "All would have to come down a step lower to address that"?
s: Yes, they don't have their eyes on the Power of God.
l: In other words, what I'm saying to you is that, God would have to
meet fallen man where he is at any point in the process to be able to
show Himself as being a redeemer of mankind. There is no depth of
degradation that man can reach that God can not save him.
s: That is what Paul guarantees us in that we have a High Priest (in
Hebrews) a Priest of the Melchizedek [Heb. 5-8], Who is there, Who has
paid the blood sacrifice, for us to be in The Holy of Holies, *continu-
ally*, as an intercessor for us.
l: But the point being is that if Christ is not... can not... Christ's
ability as a high priest, Christ's ability as a redeemer, must be corre-
lated to His experiencing or the depth of experience encompassing those
He seeks to redeem.
Now if my sins are outside of Christ's redeeming abilities, his
redeeming qualities, then He can not save me.
s: Say that all again.
l: Christ's redeeming qualifications rests upon His abilities to encom-
pass the extent of humanities sins.
s: That's right.
l: If I personalize it, what I'm saying is that, Christ, can not under-
stand, or can not appreciate sins committed, rather than temptations.
And this is by virtue of His own experience.
Now, there is a question that must arise, as to whether or not He is
fit enough to reach down and meet somebody who is fallen into sin.
s: I understand that you're leading up to Koresh.
Let me stay with Christ for a moment. Christ made the assertion that,
if you lust in your heart, it's the same as if you had the sex act...
[Matthew 5:27-28, regarding adultery]
l: That's right.
s: ...and if you hate it's the same as if...
l: You commit murder.
s: ... you killed. [Matthew 5:21-22]
s: So that, to Him there was no distinction between...
l: Ok. Fine.
s: Ahh, yes. Uh huh. ok
Is the justification important to man in that the sentence be carried
out? In that, The Judgement be carried out?
l: For man yes, because at the end of the day, every man will stand
before God -- without an argument. The truth about it is that if God
never came down to the level of mankind, then essentially you could
argue with... mankind could argue, "Well, God, it's alright, that talk
about being able to suffer me, but listen -- You didn't sin."
I recommend that you read Psalms 40, in respect to this issue. Now
there is spoken of a person there. That a body was prepared for. It
speaks about him in the volume of the book.
Now, if you read that chapter in it's truest context, something very
significant is brought out about the *person* spoken of in the chapter.
s: You say this is Psalms 40.
l: That's right. Preferably with Psalms 139 and Psalms ahmm, Psalms 89.
s: 139 & 89 ??
l: That's right.
What I need to do to be able to develop this argument... now, hold on
a second, all that we're doing is developing an argument. At the end of
the day you must decide based on information presented, what position
you take. Do you follow what I'm saying?
s: Oh, yes.
l: But, what I feel is, [it's] necessary for you to be able to perceive
the frame of reference that I'm operating in... there is a certain con-
ceptual reality that is necessary for you to understand, for us to build
our discussion. Do you follow?
s: To build on... ?
l: To build our discussion.
s: To build the discussion.
l: That's right.
And some of this information I'm now giving to you. With your having
a background in those things we can then proceed, in our discussion. But
until that is so, I can not assume, as I said in the article, that we're
actually operating in the same conceptual frame of reference. Cause I
know that we're not.
s: Yes. I understand.
l: I really do know that we're not.
s: To me it's a simple matter of "impedance matching." I think in terms
of signals and antennae and such.
s: We've got to have that bridge, that right framework, and mesh-up
before the best and most accurate transmission of power can occur
without reflections. ["self-reflections"]
l: That's exactly it.
So at the moment, even as we have been discussing over the past, I
think roughly, an hour now. In our discussion thus far there are many
things that I have said that I know do not... are not received in the
context of my expression. You are still viewing them in the context of
where you're at.
l: Now, I understand in my there is
a lot of individuals who do that to protect themselves. But the truth
about it is, if I'm showing you Truth, you really do not need to protect
your self, because it's really... we're talking about freedom.
s: Yes, truth is the way by which I know how to correct those things
which are wrong.
l: Sure. Anything that is in error is enslaving you.
s: That's right. Amen. That's right.
l: So with the basic conceptual reference that we're operating in, you
can enter in there for your self, and judge it. Your mind and your free
will is not in any way, ahmm, sacrificed. It is necessary for you to
demonstrate an element of trust, to facilitate the discussion. Nobody
forces anybody, (certainly not where we're coming from), to be able to
understand this truth.
Everybody that's here, that is currently being identified as Branch
Davidian, adopts this position out of absolute free choice.
s: They voluntarily entered into whatever the situation is?
s: They were not coerced by anybody?
s: Would you say that for the children as well?
l: Well the children go with the parents.
s: Yes, it's so.
l: So from that premise, it's likely what the government would be saying
is that, "Ok, you can do what you want, but don't take your children
along." BUT THAT'S A RIGHT. That's a PARENTAL RIGHT! It's your right, if
you have kids, that you should take a responsibility to ah, ahm, take
care of the temporal; as well as the eternal, destiny of those children.
Now listen, I'm going to have to conclude now. We've got a problem
right here. Somebody else wants the phone.
s: I understand. One thing more for me and I'm not recording this.
l: What's that.
--- End of Part 3 of 3 ---
-- J -- "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples
| indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth
| stephen shall make you free."
(Jesus to the Jews who believed on him. John 8:31-32)
E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank