Subject: Conspiracy for the Day - August 27, 1993 Date: 27 Aug 1993 08:15:59 GMT Conspirac

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Here's an amusingnut rant from Linda "Hate Queen" Thompson. From: bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) Subject: Conspiracy for the Day -- August 27, 1993 Date: 27 Aug 1993 08:15:59 GMT Conspiracy for the Day -- August 27, 1993 =========================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") ----------------------------------------------------------------- Waco, Another Perspective by Linda Thompson American Justice Foundation Would somebody please tell me, just what is the "government approved" religion, so that I can join it and not have to live in fear of being labeled a "cult member" and summarily executed by firing squad or burned at the sake as a witch? I am an attorney and I represent the Schroeder family members who survived the siege at Waco. I have also talked with several Branch Davidians who have survived, speaking with some who were in jail during the siege and with some who survived the fire as well as others who were not inside the center when the agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) first arrived. The Branch Davidians are not glazed-over, moon-child crazies. In my conversations with them, they seem to be well educated, articulate, very nice people. Many had normal jobs outside the Mt. Carmel Center. None of them believed they were under David Koresh's "control". Each of them said they were free to leave whenever they wanted. Words can't express the sickness, horror and outrage I felt, watching an army tank bash holes in the walls of the house at Mt. Carmel, Monday, April 19, 1993 - exactly 50 years after the Nazis burned the Warsaw ghetto and, coincidentally, the anniversary of Paul Revere's ride for freedom. What animal did they get to drive that tank? What monsters devised this plan and put it in motion? And all the while, the FBI's personal mouthpiece, Ricks, sanctimoniously made claims that this was done to "urge" the people to come out, that the FBI was "concerned about child abuse" because of the "conditions the children were living in." Let's remember who turned off all the power, water, and sewage to the center and subjected the children to these filthy conditions. Let's look at who subjected these children to 24-hour a day sounds and lights, and tanks running up to the house and circling it 24 hours a day. Let's remember who gassed small children, pounded their home with tanks, and then burned them to death. And, unbelievably, Ricks then claimed that CS gas was pumped into the house out of concern for the welfare of the children. There were no gas masks for children and this gas is horribly painful and sickening. All the while this horrible gas is being pumped into the house, suffocating and burning them, a huge tank is ramming the house from the outside, making it a very safe place indeed for children and their mothers to run to escape the gas, if they could. And the FBI is shouting, "This is not an assault." A Branch Davidian told me that when the tank rammed the house the women ran upstairs with the children. The tank rammed the house so hard, the house twisted and all the doors inside were jammed shut and could not be opened. The women and children were trapped in the inferno and burned alive upstairs. A man who saw pictures of the aftermath reported on April 22nd, that the mothers' bodies had been found trying to shield their now dead children. Another fellow sent me information on the chemical structure of CS gas. Catching Janet Reno and the FBI in a glaring lie, they claim that the CS gas was non-flammable, which means that it was a CS mixture made with water. If so, this combination produces a deadly narcotic gas which would have rendered the Branch Davidians stuperous. CS gas can be made by mixing the active ingredient with one of several base liquids to produce a gas. The only non-flammable liquid is water, but this combination produces a narcotic. The remaining liquids with which the active ingredient can be mixed to produce CS gas are all highly flammable. I have received reports from no less than 15 people across the country who saw on the TV footage, two men in black uniforms, wearing gas masks, who climbed up to the roof from the outside of the house and set the fire. How could any Branch Davidian even get outside to climb up to that roof. Better still, why would they need to go outside and climb on the roof, since the fire could easily be set from inside? Three Army demolitions experts have called to tell me that the tanks assaulting the house was a "dragon tank", fitted with a special nozzle, usually used to blow in jelled gas that will stick to everything, forming a highly flammable coagulant on every surface. And any fool knows that if the FBI intended to merely put in CS gas, they did not need to make gaping holes in the wall of the house. In fact, that would make the gas dissipate and escape, Huge, gaping holes were bashed in the sides of the building, not to induce CS gas, so much as to make sure the house was well ventilated, and that the fire would spread rapidly. A fire expert told me that the best way to make a building burn fast is to punch holes in the lower part. This morning, a nurse was interviewed on two radio programs, KGBS in Waco, Texas and another in Laport, and she said that at 5:00 a.m. Monday morning the FBI had come to the hospital and asked what facilities they had for burn victims!! Conveniently, now tonight, the FBI has a cover story. They are now claiming they detected "three lights" inside the house the night before so that the Branch Davidians had set the house on fire on Sunday night. Three others reported seeing footage where the tank drove over a gas tank, exploding it. The Branch Davidians had generators and their own fuel storage tanks. These blew up. The FBI now claims these explosions were "bombs" set as booby traps. But no end of bomb experts have told me that it was a propane tank, pure and simple, which is easily detected by the slow dispersion of the fire wave and the fire ball created in the explosion. One Branch Davidian has told me that there was no "suicide" - that no one from the Branch Davidians set the fire at all and didn't know it was coming. Another yelled at reporters as he came out that the tank had turned over a lantern, setting the blaze inside. The only suggestion of "suicide" in fact, seems to have its origins with the Cult Awareness Network (CAN), a group that seems to label any religion as a "cult" and all religious practices as a "sickness." This group wields a lot of power in Washington and with the BATF. A CAN advisor to the BATF was providing disinfomation for 30 days before the assault. The wife of late Senator Joe Ryan, who died at Jonestown, fuels the zealous fury with which CAN attacks any group it labels a "cult." Deprogrammers and kidnappers "rescue" people in these "cults". Afterwards, a deprogrammed victim has been, literally, brainwashed, which is how the "deprogramming" is accomplished. They will then say whatever the programmer has told them to say about the group that they formerly belonged to. And so we get "first-hand testimonials" of "sex-abuse" and "devil-worship" or whatever nauseating tales can be foisted upon an unsuspecting public. The goal: To dehumanize the people in that group, make them appear filthy and disgusting, make the American public turn their heads away when something like the carnage at Waco takes place. We are no better than the Germans who did nothing when Hitler murdered Jews and blacks. Will we stand by and continue to allow these atrocities to occur in our own county? American "law enforcement" using military troops to kill American men, women, and children? And with the full sanction from the highest levels of government and with the full power of the United Slates government to cover it up? The rest of the story follows: The news media was kept 3 miles from The Mt. Carmel Center by armed guards at all roads into the compound. And the media dutifully regurgitated whatever tripe the FBI fed them each day at 10:30 a.m. calling it "news" as they slandered the Branch Davidians, spreading lies of "child molesting", "planned mass suicide", and "religious whackos in Waco". No matter, sensationalism sells newspapers, doesn't it? It gets those network ratings up, too. It wouldn't be a story if they told the truth. The FCC might shut down a network or two or yank a permit. Better that 100 people should die in an inferno than expose the depths of the depravity of the leaders of this country. Well, the FBI lied and the major networks repeated these lies without question, allowing themselves to be nothing but a tool of propaganda. Here's the real story: In 1992, Sheri Jewel and her ex-husband were in a custody battle over their daughter, Keri. Sheri was a Branch Davidian and she was killed in the fire Monday, April 19, 1993. Her ex-husband is a radio announcer. His wife is a TV personality. They have money. A fellow named Mark Breault, who is reputed to have a felony record, used to be a Branch Davidian. He proclaimed himself to be a prophet. After awhile, he tried to take over the Mt. Carmel compound and was ousted by David Koresh. Breault, an Australian, left, vowing revenge. He often called the compound daily to harass the members. Not surprisingly, a vengeful Breault, made various allegations against the Branch Davidians in an affidavit in the Jewel's custody battle lawsuit. This was in Michigan in 1992. Senators were contacted to investigate these allegations, as was the "Cult Awareness Network." The Cult Awareness Network is a group in Washington, DC, headed by the wife of late Senator Ryan who was killed at Jonestown. She has a personal vendetta, too. And she wields a lot of power in Washington, apparently, because if someone ends up on the "cult" hit list, they frequently end up dead, arrested for IRS violations, or with other legal problems. The allegations of child molestation were investigated in the intervening two years, twice, by Texas welfare department authorities and found to be baseless. The Sheriff's department investigated the allegations of illegal guns and these claims were found to be baseless. The investigations were peaceful. There were no problems. Mark Breault, however, continued to make his baseless and slanderous allegations against the Branch Davidians. "The Cult Awareness Network" turned up the pressure. The newspapers called Breault a "private investigator who has tracked the Davidians for two and a half years." "Tracked"? They had lived at the Mt. Carmel Center since 1935. How much "tracking" did it take? "Investigator"? Ha! He's a self-proclaimed "prophet" with a vendetta against the Branch Davidians. And who paid him so handsomely that he could afford to "track" them for 2-1/2 years, anyway? Did the media bother to check any of this out? Never. You may remember that in the first few days the Branch Davidians were under siege, they hung a sheet outside the window that said, "Send in Don Stewart, CFA and Ron Ingleman." I now know all these people pretty well by phone now. Don Stewart says he is a former paid informant and hired assassin for the BATF. He named dates, names, and places, and detailed a secret hit squad operated under the BATF by a man code-named "Wolfgang" (whose name he identified to me). He claims this secret hit squad killed a fellow named Tomassi in California; a religious leader called the Bogwan Rashnesh Shari; and provided the weaponry to Sarah Moore, the woman who tried to shoot President Ford, and that the BATF drove her through guards to get her in place. He says they took her children to keep her quiet. He also says that John Wayne Beams, the man who ran the ad in Soldier of Fortune magazine as a hired hitman that got Soldier of Fortune sued when he actually carried out a hired murder for someone, was a paid operative for the government as a line of work. Congressional records show that a man named Dick Stoffberg was another such operative, who was a hired assassin of our government and also ran guns and cocaine in and out of the country. Don Stewart is now on the run from the BATF, living in an RV with his family. If even a 10th of his information is true, it is a sorry, sorry tale of the depravity existing at the highest levels of our government. CFA - the Constitutional Foundation Association, Grand Prairie, Texas, [124 Northeast 9th Avenue, Grand Prairie, Texas 75050, (314) 264-6756] was started by Greg Sanlia and Bill Griffith, to expose the true story in Waco. They are also now working to establish common law courts throughout the country to put corrupt judicial officials and politicians behind bars, where they belong. Together with Ken Fawcett, they have collected over 300 hours worth of videotapes of the initial onslaught. People who have studied these tapes in slow motion say that they show that the BATF agents who were killed going in through the second story window were killed by friendly fire and their own frag grenade. When they got inside the window, they were in a 10 x 10 room that had a locked steel door. They couldn't get out. They were hit by friendly fire and trapped in the room when the frag grenade went off. One Branch Davidian, Mike Schroeder, left the Mt. Carmel compound that morning to go to work as usual. He passed by agents who never stopped him. He didn't learn of the initial siege until later that day. When he tried to return home, he was shot in the back as he climbed a fence. His body was left hanging on the fence for days, as his wife and children could see him there, from inside the house. The government finally moved his body, using a grappling hook from a helicopter, at night, to drop it into a nearby field, where it was chewed by wild dogs and buzzards beyond recognition as a human being. Another man was shot and his body was left up on the water tower for days by the government and it, too, was dropped to the ground at night by a helicopter, leaving pieces to be scraped up from the ground. Then two old ladies, who came out of the compound with the children, said that all the children had been in an upstairs room when they were suddenly fired upon by helicopters through the roof the day of the siege. They covered the children with their own bodies to protect them. These old ladies were charged with murder and held in jail. Eventually, they were put under arrest as material witnesses and held in a half-way house out of the city. While the FBI was claiming to be urging the Branch Davidians to surrender, FBI spokesperson Ricks announced on Friday, April 17th, that anyone who came out would be considered a threat to the BATF agents and would be shot. Shots and percussion grenades were fired at a person who tried to leave through a window that day and at Steve Schneider. Ricks said that Steve Schneider had "abused his privileges" and had to be taught a lesson. For 51 days, the FBI tortured the people inside the Mt. Carmel center. All utilities, including sanitation, were cut off. Loudspeakers were set up all around the house to blare sounds 24-hours a day, including the sounds of rabbits being slaughtered, the sound a phone makes when it is left off the hook, Tibetan monk chants, jet airplanes, babies crying, and songs such as "These Boots Are Made for Walking" and Christmas carols. Stadium lights were set up to keep the place lit up 24 hours a day. Military tanks, including M1 Abrams and Bradleys, were brought in and rapidly circled the house, firing percussion grenades continuously. The tanks would charge up to the house and stop within feet of the house repeatedly. Black helicopters flew overhead. Two dark green huey gunships also flew over frequently, guns mounted in front. The black helicopters have no markings on them and appear to have a rotorless tail. I got pictures of two of them that flew over the compound and parked at the FBI headquarters. These same black helicopters have been reported by many people who have spotted them performing "strafing" patterns over suburban areas. They are used as part of a "multi-jurisdictional" task force police and the storage locations for them are secret. They are also frequently spotted over the homes of persons targeted by the government as "dissidents"; and just shortly after our militia protest rally in Waco on April 3, 1993, other people reported two of these helicopters circling over my house in suburban (and very populated) Indianapolis. Around the 40th day of the siege, David Koresh announced that the children and babies were out of milk. Several relief efforts to bring baby food to the Mt. Carmel compound were turned back. My husband and I tried on Saturday and Sunday, April 3rd and 4th to deliver baby food and baby supplies to the compound. We were detained for questioning and turned away. When I posed the direct question to the FBI headquarters, "Has it come to this? Does the United States government want babies to starve to death?", the answer was, verbatim, "Yes". We took the food and put it alongside the road block at the press entrance with a sign that said, "Please take this food to the Mt. Carmel babies. The FBI says 'Let em starve.'" Within minutes, an ATF agent in a pick-up truck that had "Wild Bill" painted on the side, stole all the food. Two people from South Bend, Indiana, one of them Gary Spaulding, were arrested for trying to take baby food and supplies into the Mt. Carmel center the following week. When they were arrested, Gary specifically asked the arresting officer if he didn't want to "check with his high command to be sure that the officer was doing what the high command wanted." The officer replied, "I can assure you that I speak for high command when I say that food is not going in to those babies." And to the agents who stole the food, and every state trooper, every BATF agent, and every FBI agent who prevented those children from receiving food, you are murderers. At the road-block entrance, the ATF had off-duty agents standing along-side the highway, holding signs that said "We support The ATF" and "Honk if you support the ATF." About one car in 12 honked and it should be noted this was a major artery for ATF agents going to and from work, which could account for the occasional person stupid enough to honk. The weekend of April 4th, my husband and I stood alongside them with our own signs that said, "ATF welcomes you to Nazi AmeriKa" and "the ATF kills women and babies." Little did we know just how prophetic that sign would be. And how did the BATF account for what it did when it assaulted the Branch Davidians? Did it offer to show the American public the search warrant they claimed to have? No. In fact, the search warrant and probable cause affidavit, if they existed at all, were "sealed" by court order. A court order from the magistrate who signed it in the first place, Dennis Green. Dennis Green, you are a murderer. The only judge in that district, Walter Smith. Jr. of the Waco Division, Western U.S. District Court in Waco, who chose and supervises Magistrate Green, denied eight petitions for relief filed by various lawyers seeking to order the FBI and BATF to be made to follow the law and the United States Constitution. The government never once filed a single paper in opposition to any of these motions. There was clear, controlling Supreme Court law that required that these petitions be granted. The judge had no legal reason to deny them, yet he did. And he used the same order, nearly a xerox, to deny all of them. Walter Smith, Jr., you are a murderer. Walter Smith is the same judge who allowed arraignments of people who left the compound to be held in secret. When there was not sufficient probable cause to hold them under arrest, he allowed them to be detained in jails as "material witnesses." And this same judge is the only judge in that division, where all the remaining Branch Davidians, now facing "murder" charges, will be put on trial. And, now that the warrants have been unsealed, the entire "probable cause" is nothing more than voodoo allegations that the cult "might" do something violent in the future, so the BATF had to act. It alleges a lot of perfectly legal and lawful actions as "probable cause." Nearly two pages are devoted to such "scandalous" activities as "paying cash for C.O.D. deliveries" from UPS (without noting that few vendors will accept anything BUT cash for a C.O.D. delivery). And, interestingly, Larry Gilbreath of UPS apparently found the time to supply the ATF with descriptions of times, dates, and circumstances of his deliveries, as well as the items he delivered, all of them legal. Remember that rumor that UPS was keeping track of anyone receiving or sending shipments that had anything to do with guns? Well, here's the proof. It's in the probable cause affidavit, plain as the nose on my face. UPS, the Unauthorized Private Snoops for the government. The 17-page probable-cause affidavit is heavily padded with allegations of "child molestation" and "sex with all the women." The BATF has no jurisdiction whatever over "child molesting" or having sex with a lot of different women. The BATF is only supposed to check to see if taxes have been paid on various weapons and if weapons regulations have been observed. And the ATF makes liberal use of wholly useless and innocent remarks that Koresh made to uninvited government spies who must have worn a path to his house, such as a welfare worker who was there to ostensibly check on the children's welfare, but seemed interested only in finding out about any guns that might be there, to the point of obsession. And the undercover ATF Agent who came over a few times. Gee, whatever happened to privacy in one's own home? It is clear these government interlopers were quite peeved when David Koresh attempted to politely tell them to mind their own business and when they wouldn't, he would entertain them, playing the guitar or showing a Gun Owners of America video tape that accurately portrays the ATF as an agency that lies to, threatens and harasses individuals. The affidavit shows ATF's paranoia where it implies that remarks by Koresh that refer to Koresh's interpretation of the 6th Seal, whereby God will send an army to earth, indicate that Koresh is prone to violence. But the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever on someone who might become violent. After the BATF and FBI learned that the American Justice Federation had released a press release stating that the use of military troops against United States citizens violated federal law, specifically, the Posse Comitatus Act, 32 U.S.C. 1835, the BATF released a cover story, claiming that the tanks were "really" not Army, they were National Guard, and had been brought in under the "Drug Interdiction Act" because they had heard there was a "methamphetamine lab" - three weeks after the FBI had already publicly announced them was never any question whatever of drug involvement. Governor Ann Richards of Texas, who authorized the use of the tanks, claimed she had been tricked. But she still did not order the tanks to be withdrawn. Ann Richards, you are a murderer. Each day, secret horrors were perpetrated upon the Branch Davidians, out of sight of the American public, as the press cowered like sheep out on the fringes. Each day, the FBI gave us "The Truth", as told by the FBI, and the news media dutifully lapped it up and spread it throughout the country, poisoning the minds of people across the country, just as the FBI intended. FBI Agents Jeff Jamar and Ricks, you are murderers. Did any of the news media ever challenge how the BATF might have any jurisdiction at all over "child molesting" allegations? Or their authority to bring in two cattle trailers full of armed men, who threw grenades at the front door and went in shooting at woman and children on a Sunday morning? Each of you in the media who didn't question, who didn't challenge, who didn't know enough about the Constitution of this country to even ask an intelligent question, each of you are murderers. One or two persons asked decent questions at the press conference. Lewis Beam, a former KKK grand dragon and political activist, and a reporter from Soldier of Fortune Magazine, were kicked out of the press conference for asking pointed questions. Lewis Beam was arrested. His crime? Asking "Is this the beginning of Gestapo tactics and martial law in this country" at the press conference. Two other known "trouble makers" (this author included), were prevented from entering the press conference, despite valid press credentials. In fact later that day, I was detained as a BATF agent at a road block pointed a machine gun at me and my partner, John Baird, and our credentials were stolen. My crime? I had filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Branch Davidians, asking that they be allowed to have legal counsel. And for all the unasked questions: No, it is not illegal to own a machine gun in this county. Even if the Branch Davidians had a machine gun, which it now appears they did not, if it was "illegal", it only meant that a $200 tax had not been paid on it. All it takes to legally own a machine gun in this country is to pay a $200 tax and fill out a Form 4. The BATF is supposed to check that those taxes have been paid. Branch Davidians have said that Paul Fatta, a Branch Davidian, held a Class III dealer's license. That meant that he could legally own, sell, and buy any type of gun. It is thus highly unlikely that there were any "illegal" guns in the center at all. And who is responsible for issuing these permits? The BATF. They knew Paul Fatta had a license. Paul Fatta was not at the Mt. Carmel Center the day the BATF assaulted the Branch Davidians. Nonetheless, he is now listed on the FBI's "10 Most Wanted" list as "armed and dangerous." This gives the government the ability to shoot him on sight and then claim he was a "fleeing felon." It is, in other words, a license for the government to kill, again. To bury the best evidence against them, again. The FBI claims to have found one "illegal" gun. It also claims to have found a "weapons cache" of $200,000 in guns which it found by checking through the BATF's registration records. That means these guns were LEGALLY registered. Yet the FBI is referring to this as an "illegal weapons cache." Neighbors we have spoken with who have known the Branch Davidians for 15 years described them as "good Samaritan" types who helped their neighbors and were kind and friendly. Normal people, good neighbors. The kind of folks you'd probably rather have living around you than the thugs who commit the drive-by shootings, rapes, and robberies, for instance. Calling a religion a "cult" and putting out false information across the media about "child molesting" and "weapons caches" is exactly the same technique that was used by the Nazis to portray the Jews as filthy, disgusting people, so they could be killed. It is the same technique used by every tyrannical government, to kill an unpopular and potentially vocal adversarial group. But in this country, we are supposed to have freedom of religion. It would seem that is a pipe dream. Tell me, what is the "official government-approved religion" I should join so I don't have to worry about being shot or burned to death in my own home by the government? We have three confirmed reported citings of trainloads of UN tanks going into Portland, Oregon, over the past few weeks, and troop movements of unmarked military vehicles across the nation. Perhaps you might want to ponder the significance of these events. And Monday night, April 19, 1992, wasting no time to exploit these horrific deaths, Peter Jennings, in yet another "made for propaganda" ABC News TV special, gave a full and impartial (not) accounting of events by having those bastions of integrity, Kisser, of the Cult Awareness Network, and a former Branch Davidian, give us "insight" into how Branch Davidians and other "cults" think. As if they know. Peter Jennings twice said tonight that "there are more than 100 cults across the country and this is a warning of things to come." And Clinton issued an ominous statement along the same lines the same night. And by Thursday night, two reporters had tried to enter what remained of the Mt. Carmel property and were arrested. A guy named McDonald, speaking for Governor Ann Richards of Texas, made it plain that attempting to enter the area could result in "tragic circumstances." In other words, while the cover up is going on, anyone trying to find out the truth will be shot. David Koresh had a message for the world. He wasn't holding out to commit suicide. He didn't hold anyone hostage. He wanted to give what he believed was a gift to the world. He believed he held the secret to the seven seals, spoken of in Revelations. He wanted to offer what he knew for anyone who could hear it, believing he had a duty to offer it to help save the souls of those who did not know. He wanted the time to write it down. which be had to do in candlelight, using a manual typewriter, on scraps of paper. He sent a message to the FBI telling them this. He also sent messages, Bible scriptures, that said that God would send his holy armies to smite his enemies. That much may be true. The Waco massacre has awakened Americans all across the nation to what is horribly wrong in this country. A voice of unity is being heard, getting louder each day. I have received over 4,000 phone calls in a week, from many different groups and organizations, and people of all races and religions, from all walks of life. They have one thing that has brought them together: A search and a demand, for liberty and justice for all. We have seen our leaders on the television, lying to us with straight faces, offering justifications for this carnage, as if there could ever be any possible moral explanation or excuse that could be enough. That the people offering these excuses are morally bankrupt and corrupt should be obvious. And all of them, Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, William Sessions, and Lloyd Bentsen, are murderers. This is the coming of the New World Order. A one-world government where, in order to put the new government in place, we must all be disarmed first. To do that, the government is deliberately creating schisms in our society, funding both the anti-abortion and pro-choice sides, the anti-gun/pro-gun issues, black-white race riots, gay/anti-gay hysteria, trying to provoke a riot that will allow martial law to be implemented and all the weapons to be seized, while "dissidents" are put safely away; perhaps, as in David Koresh's case, permanently. This was gun control in action, folks, exactly the way our government plans to play it out, without apologies. Now you tell me who were the criminals here and who should be disarmed? Interestingly, the day the Branch Davidians were murdered is also the anniversary of the ride of Paul Revere. Americans, my fellow patriots, we have cold-blooded killers running our country. Isn't it about time you put down your beer, get up off the sofa and do something about it? Linda Thompson American Justice Federation Telephone: 317-780-5204 FAX: 317-780-5209 BBS: 317-881-2743 [Fidonet 1:231/110] ----------------------------------------------------------------- Stacey Powers collection of BATF information is now available by ftp at: ftp.netcom.com 1> ftp ftp.netcom.com 2> login: anonymous 3> password: your-email@address 4> cd /pub/jamesd/batf-at-waco 5> 6> quit ----------------------------------------------------------------- Today's conspiracy brought to you by....... Brian Francis Redman ................................................... : Aperi os tuum muto, : : et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. : : Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, : : et judica inopem et pauperem. : : -- Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9 : :.................................................: (bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) (72567.3145@compuserve.com) From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) Subject: BATF GOES FOR COVER-UP OF WACO FIASCO, Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 17:35:28 GMT BATF GOES FOR COVER-UP OF WACO FIASCO, WRITE TO TREASURY NOW TO PROTEST!!! The people who launched the disastrous raid on the Branch Dividian compound in Waco, Texas, have now mounted an attack on the American people's right to know facts behind the tragedy. The Tresury Department is seeking to deny public access to invesitgative reports probing the government's actions leading to the Waco conflagration You have until September 15 to protest against this cover-up. Comments (preferably in triplicate) should be sent to the Dept. of the Tresaury, Office of Enforcemnet, Room 4312, 1500 Pennslyvania Ave., N.W., Washington, D.C. 20220. WRITE NOW! It has been reported that the Treasury wants to lockup many of the findings of the Waco investigation to "protect investigative techniques and procedures." What they are really doing is hiding the truth from the American people and preventing the people from making an accurate judgment on the BATF actions in Waco. This action is being taken at teh same time critizism of the raid is mounting. The affidavit used to justify the search warrant used in Waco has come under intense criticism, with stories in a number of major papers, the Washington Times the latest (Sept. 2). Experts who have researched the warrant have stated that it never should have been granted because the affidavit did not meet legal requirements. Specifically cited were: a quote attributed to Koresh regarding the LA riots, said to have been spoken three weeks before the riots happened; no probable cause based on information included in the warrant; inaccurate description of the firearms in possession of Koresh; and only technical, if any, violations of firearms laws. As a result of this intense pressure, there has been speculation in the press that Stephen Higgins, BATF Director and other top BATF officials may be forced out. However, to counter the growing outcry, the Treasury is now taking steps to seal away information from the investigation of the tragedy. That is, they are trying to cover it all up. Below is the text of a proposed rule change that would lock up the files of the "Waco Administrative Review Group Investigation", the panel assigned to investigate the assault on the Branch Davidian Compound. This means that Freedom of Information Act requests for information will be denied, and the public will not have access to this information. This is a blatant effort to cover-up the blunders in Waco. It can only be stopped if people cry-out in protest. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Departmental Offices (DEPO) 31 CFR Part 1 Proposed rule: Privacy Act of 1974, as Amended; Exemption of System of Records From Certain Provisions Contact: Nichole L. Jenkins, 202-622-0450 Comment Date: 09/15/93 (FEDREGISTER 58 FR 43312 08/16/93; 538 lines.) *Proposed Rules* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY Departmental Offices 31 CFR Part 1 Privacy Act of 1974, as Amended; Exemption of System of Records From Certain Provisions AGENCY: Departmental Offices, Department of the Treasury. ACTION: Proposed rule. SUMMARY: In accordance with the requirements of the Privacy Act of 1974, as amended, Departmental Offices, Office of Enforcement is proposing to exempt a system of records, the Waco Administrative Review Group Investigation (DO/.207) from certain provisions of the Privacy Act. The exemptions are intended to increase the value of the system of records for law enforcement and investigative purposes, to comply with legal prohibitions against the disclosure of certain kinds of information, and to protect the privacy of individuals identified in the system of records. The exemptions are intended to increase the value of the system of records for the factfinding investigation and administrative review performed by the Waco Administrative Review Group so as not to reveal local, state or Federal law enforcement techniques, sources and methods or affect the ability of law enforcement agencies to prosecute people for criminal wrongdoing. DATES: Comments must be received no later than September 15, 1993. ADDRESSES: Comments (preferably in triplicate) must be submitted to the Department of the Treasury, Office of Enforcement, room 4312, 1500 Pennsylvania Ave., NW., Washington, DC 20220. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Nichole L. Jenkins, Attorney, Office of the Assistant General Counsel (Administrative & General Law), (202) 622- 0450, room 1410, 1500 Pennsylvania Ave., NW., Washington, DC 20220. Downloaded from GUN-TALK (703-719-6406) A service of the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action Washington, DC 20036 -- Larry Cipriani -- l.v.cipriani@att.com or attmail!lcipriani From: orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne - Jones) Subject: Massacre Specifics (Was Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS) Date: 3 Sep 1993 22:41:55 GMT Hello. I was shown a video tape documentary that clearly shows federal agents massacre the Branch Davidians. There are two tapes under discussion. The documentary contained intercepted video feed from Waco the day of the massacre. This footage, shot by the federal government and edited in haste, reveals an intentional, thorough massacre. Not by suggestion or innuendo, but by showing the act itself as it happened. You see it. In the documentary, there is much reporting of the events that lead up to that day, but the uncontrovertable evidence is the footage from the day of the massacre. (I will return to specifics about what is shown directly.) The intercepted feed, and the originals it was derived from, should be available under the Freedom of Information Act, but this is very much what is at issue here today. The documentary is entitled "Waco, The Big Lie." It was produced by attorney Linda D. Thompson, who chairs the American Justice Federation, 3850 South Emerson Avenue, Suite E, Indianapolis, Indiana, 46203, (317) 780-5204. It was released on July 20, 1993. I should have more copies by Saturday morning. I intend to screen the documentary for netters in the Portland, Oregon area and if you would like to attend, please send me e-mail. I should have a transcript to post by Monday morning. I have also arranged to digitize and upload still frames by Wednesday. The most compelling is the video of tank retrievers destroying the stairwell exits from the underground bunker and then a flamethrowing tank setting fire to the building itself. This is not hazy interpretation, but clearly visible arson. No doubt about it. Other footage shows armored personnel carriers and soldiers loitering over the underground bunker the Branch Davidians were in just before the first signs of smoke appear, hours before the government claims the fire started. Armed officers apparently wearing fire-protecting vests and masks are to be seen calmly leaving buildings on the compound just as the fire begins to spread rapidly. Tanks are shown pushing burning remnants of the fire into piles, apparently destroying evidence of what went on. There is also government footage of the original assault, in which an ATF agent shoots himself in the foot. An ATF agent apparently throws a grenade and fires blind into a window that three fellow ATF agents have just entered. Return fire includes three bullets simultaneously exiting the wall of the building in the general direction of the first ATF agent who had just fired. The agent was hit, but not injured, and the agent left the scene. Those three ATF agents died in the initial assault. No return fire is seen coming from the Branch Davidians, who never appear alive on the tape except in footage from before the initial raid. The government lied about having killed some members of the group that were trying to escape the compound. In reality, they had been trying to get in. Allegations of child abuse and automatic weapons possession had been investigated by local authorities and were found to be baseless. The ATF has no authority to investigate child abuse. The sarcastic denial that the government used to claim that Koresh believed he was God is completely understandable in context, although that context is difficult to describe. There were glaring technical mistakes and in the paperwork leading up to the warrant being issued. Ultimately, the warrant for the initial raid was issued because the ATF said that it had reason to believe that there might have been a machine gun at the compound for which a $200 fine had not been paid. The ATF claimed that the raid had be moved up when the Waco newspaper tipped off the Branch Davidians. But the original warrant would have expired on the day of the final raid. The Posse Commitatus Act states that the military cannot be used against the American people, but the ATF used a loophole. Federal manpower and material can be used in drug interdiction, so the ATF claimed that there was a drug lab at the compound. Once again, no evidence of a drug lab was ever found. Military forces were used, in violation of federal law, committing a massacre. An extensive disinformation campaign was being carried out, and still is. Psychological warfare was waged against the Branch Davidians during the siege. When a group member would piss off the government authorities, heavy vehicles crushed the cars of adults and even the tricycles of children. Searchlights swept the compound at night. Giant speakers played sounds of rabbits being slaughtered, and Nancy Sinatra's song "These Boots Are Made For Walking." One refrain of that song goes something like "I just found me a brand new box of matches, oh yeah, and if you play with fire, you're gunna get burned." The FBI surveillance was such that the FBI could see and hear everything going on in the house. These people were slaughtered, plain and simple. Part of the letter that accompanies the documentary reads: "I am an attorney. We here at [the American Justice Federation] are presently working on packets of information on how presidential executive orders, our present federal Court system, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and persons behind the federal reserve system, are tied to clandestine CIA, Wackenhut, and other activities in this country that promise to bring about martial law within the next two years. This is not 'crackpot conspiracy stuff,' it is cold, hard, facts, with legal citations and documentation to prove it. We are also putting together a reference manual of information about the militia laws in all 50 states.... "There has been no effort to make any type of genuine investigation into Waco. Every current investigation is being controlled by either the Treasury Department or the Justice Department." "Either Attorney General Janet Reno or Deputy Attorney General Philip B. Heymann, by law, must first request that an independent prosecutor be appointed by a special panel of judges. This has not been done, nor is ANY independent investigation being conducted. Instead "special investigators" are merely "reviewing the performance" of the Justice and Treasury departments, and they're doing it under the supervision of Lloyd Bentsen, Secretary of the Treasury or Philip B. Heymann, the second-highest in command at the Justice Department -- talk about the foxes investigating the hen house!" We now know from the Federal Register that Treasury, under Treasury Secretary Bentsen, intends to make their report secret and not subject to the Freedom of Information Act on September 16, 1993. One might cynically guess that the Justice Department report would also be kept secret. If so, the eventual scandal will surely dwarf the one that would result if there was complete disclosure now. Immediate disclosure and federal prosecution for these crimes is vital to the cause of American freedom. Theus (orpheus@reed.edu) -- From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) Subject: Re: Massacre Specifics (Was Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS) Date: 7 Sep 1993 16:12:34 GMT In article <26ag5m$h4u@ulowell.uml.edu>, jrutledg@cs.uml.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes: > In article <268h7j$lvd@scratchy.reed.edu> orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne - Jones) writes: > >The most compelling is the video of tank retrievers destroying the > >stairwell exits from the underground bunker and then a flamethrowing tank > >setting fire to the building itself. This is not hazy interpretation, but > >clearly visible arson. No doubt about it. > Was this a tank with a long attachment on the turret. The end of the > attachment was rammed through a wall followed by lost of smoke coming > out through the hole and through near by windows. This may or may > not have caused small flames to appear near the hole. This is the > modified tank which was used to spray CS gas into the buildings. I am > sure a good editing jobs of CNN footage can make this look very > much like a flamethrower. The tank in the video is shown backing out of the hole. As the tank backs away, you can clearly see what looks like flames spouting out of the end of the boom. > Anyways, the video tape footage I saw on CNN the same day of the fire > show three separate fires starting almost simultaneously in three > different locations. One flamethrower tank could not have move > fast enough to do this. It might if it had been pumping in CS gas mixed with acetone dispersant all day, to which the FBI has already admitted. -- cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet... From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark O. Wilson) Subject: Re: Massacre Specifics (Was Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 14:25:59 GMT In <26iqokINNkce@mojo.eng.umd.edu> tedwards@eng.umd.edu (Thomas Grant Edwards) writes: |In article <26ibti$ic5@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes: |>In article <26ag5m$h4u@ulowell.uml.edu>, jrutledg@cs.uml.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes: |>> Anyways, the video tape footage I saw on CNN the same day of the fire |>> show three separate fires starting almost simultaneously in three |>> different locations. One flamethrower tank could not have move |>> fast enough to do this. |>It might if it had been pumping in CS gas mixed with acetone dispersant |>all day, to which the FBI has already admitted. |Or, if there had already been a fire going, perhaps there was |flashover. |One has to wonder how three separate people could coordinate |simultaneous lighting of the building...I'll have to see the |tape to understand what is going on though. The tape involved did not show three fires. It was an infrared camera and it showed three hot spots. In a building with long corridors and several stairwells to act as natural chimneys. Given that the building had been opened in several places and a stiff wind was blowing. It would be quite possible for the heat from a single fire to rise via multiple paths to create more than one hot spot on the roof. -- Mob rule isn't any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money. Wilson's theory of relativity: If you go back far enough, we're all related. Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) Subject: Re: Massacre Specifics (Was Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS) Date: 10 Sep 1993 23:56:20 GMT In article <26q7ks$2ru@ulowell.uml.edu>, jrutledg@cs.uml.edu (John Lawrence Rutledge) writes: > >|>> Anyways, the video tape footage I saw on CNN the same day of the fire > >|>> show three separate fires starting almost simultaneously in three > >|>> different locations. One flamethrower tank could not have move > >|>> fast enough to do this. > >|>It might if it had been pumping in CS gas mixed with acetone dispersant > >|>all day, to which the FBI has already admitted. > >The tape involved did not show three fires. It was an infrared camera and > >it showed three hot spots. > The tape I saw was daylight color footage of the compound with > smoke and flames from three different areas. The discussion by > in studio "experts" was if the CS gas tank could have set the > fire. The production of CS gas involves burning and the heat > of the gas or particles in the gas could have set the compound > on fire. The expert on fires concluded that since the three fires > were far enough apart and started almost simultaneously, the fires > had to separate fires. There was not enough time for the fire > to spread to those three locations from a single source. Given that they were using a flammable gaseous dispersant, this line of reasoning is worthless. -- cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com --If you believe that I speak for my company, OR cdt@vos.stratus.com write today for my special Investors' Packet... From: mgiwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: The waco holocaust Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 01:54:00 PDT * Carbon Copy: * Original message to ALL in the U-Talk.P.Gun conference. Is it too early or to late to head of the US version of the Storm Troopers? They have burned Americans alive solely and completely because they defended themselves. Do we wait for one more even more horrible example of government approved murder? Or do we have sufficient cause to "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln Or must we wait until one example surpasses the last until we are all inured to the grossest government atrocity? Are we to wait until we ignore the latest million or six exterminated? Are we to expect after the slow increase anyone will still think it is an atrocity? Are we to become inured to murder? Are we to politicize murder and defend it upon grounds of political affiliation? We are talking murder. I do not wish to indulge in the children or any emotion laden issue. People were deliberately MURDERED at Waco for no cause whatsoever at the approval of the highest officers in the US Government. Next year will not bring less but more. There is no correction here without justice and the trial of those involved. Next year will bring more government murders and we all know it. Some seek to justify murder. I tell those I have no use for murder or those who justify it. People will call for calm and for hope in self correction in the govenrment but there will be none. Government atrocities will increase. A national police force is now planned. It is to be made up of those the unqualified but they will have guns and be on our streets. There are calls to rely upon the political process but it never changes election after election. If the majority want their rights taken then to hell with the majority. Our means of resistance are in the balance and no one is concerned. There is a chain and each step is a link in that chain. One is murdered, two are murdered, a hundred are murdered, and there is no response from the majority. The political process is null and void. There are a myriad of reasons to excuse it but none excuse it. All are crying to the wind. The time has come. Shall we exercise our rights now or when it is apparent to the most stupid oaf that he will be murdered if he disagrees? This is not an idle statement but one made in full appreciation of the cause and consequences of anyone taking it seriously. The government of the US has ill-served to the point of murdering the people. This is not to be tolerated. This is not a government responsive to the people, this is a dictatorship in democratic clothing. The game is over, damn the excuses. When murdering men are superior to the law, may they rot in hell. And God willing this country will rise up and make them rot sooner than later. * SPEED 1.30 >01< * ` -- Fidonet: 1:3603/326 Internet: mgiwer@mechanic.fidonet.org Note: These are only my own opinions...but others may agree! From: mgiwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Subject: How to tell a big lie 1/2 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 00:49:00 PDT How to Tell the Big Lie by Matt Giwer copyright 1993 We might as well learn something from the Branch Davidian episode regarding people and the press and the government. The incident first came to light with the headlines of four BATF people killed serving a search warrant. It took some time before people were noting the warrant was served with a hand grenade thrown through a window. The government originally told us they were fired on by a .50 caliber machinegun, we now know there was none. The government originally told us they tried to arange a cease fire, we now know they refused to answer their radio and continued firing for an hour and that the Branch Davidians were the first to attempt to obtain a cease fire. The government originally predicted a quick ending after a radio broadcast and after they announced he had agreed. He apparently did not agree or did not trust them or whatever, we may never know. About a week passed before it became a topic of interest to the media rather interestingly also in that when the media became bored and were giving it minimum coverage there was the final assault. The media responded with a bare minimum of facts and a lot of imagery to fill in the air time. In a search for material the term cult was used to suggest sinister things and make references to the Jamestown mass suicide. Example. Prime Time Live on 18 March 93 ran the same BATF footage at least three times while talking about subjects that only matched up in the words and not the actions. They ran interviews with ex-members who frankly had very little damaging to say. The government was actually the organization feeding this hysterical misrepresentation of events. Example. The gov sent in their hostage team for the only reason I can see as the nearest equivalent they had. The government then refered to people as "being released" rather than "deciding to leave." Since then I have read here allegations the children were begin held hostage and that husbands were holding their wives hostage at gun point. Where did this come from? People took the lead and began talking on their own. Example. Noting there has been no public statement by Koresh since the Wendsday after the start, people here are talking about Koresh based upon the cult leader image not based upon Koresh. The idea of cult conjured was of something evil and sinister ignoring the literally hundreds of "cults" and "cult leaders" that have been named since Jim Jones. We are heard people making claims as to his motivations and those of his followers. We are heard regular insights into the mind of Koresh. Statements are being made where no supporting information exists. There are many others. Example. We read implicitely and explicitely that the BDs were armed with the intention of insurrection and over throw of the government when when no evidence of that ever had any such intention. This made them the object of hate for those who fear revolution. Example. We read the constant implication that the mere posession of guns was a crime. The government from Clinton on down has refused to identify which laws they were suspected of violating. Example. We heard the constant use of the term "assault weapon" which, under any definition used in common parlance in this country are completely legal under Federal Law and under the laws of most states including Texas. This made them an object of hate for those who fear guns. Example. We heard the ridiculously high figure of the Waco operation costing one million dollars a day (which works to about one thousand men per shift. Thus providing a crutch for those who put a price tag on human life. Example. We heard they were manufacturing methamphetamines without the slightest evidence of it, connecting them with all the evils of drugs. This made them an object of hate for those who fear drugs. Example. We heard "concerns" over child abuse of which there was absolutely no evidence but that tear- and knee- jerking allegation has been made over and over from the President on down without the slighest reason to believe it. This made them the object of hate for [ Continued In Next Message... ] * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric -- Fidonet: 1:3603/326 Internet: mgiwer@mechanic.fidonet.org Note: These are only my own opinions...but others may agree! From msc.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!pdn!mechanic!f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG!mgiwer Tue Sep 14 22:22:42 1993 Path: msc.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!sybus.sybus.com!myrddin!pdn!mechanic!f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG!mgiwer From: mgiwer@f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Matt Giwer) Sender: ufgate@mechanic.fidonet.org (newsout1.26) Newsgroups: alt.activism Subject: How to tell a big lie 2/2 Message-ID: <2756.2C95EB45@mechanic.fidonet.org> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 00:49:00 PDT Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL Lines: 76 [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] those who fear child abuse. Example. We heard the Branch Davidians blamed for conditions (lack of food, sanitation) that were caused by the government. This made them the object of hate for those who fear child abuse. Example. We heard the constant allegation of illegal weapons without the slightest evidence of any illegal weapons existing and have been treated to a display of burned, legal weapons by the government. Again inspiring fear among those who fear guns. Example. We heard them blamed for responding to a deadly government attack with deadly force. Example. We heard they shot people wanting to leave when there are no signs of anyone having been shot. Example. They had enough rations to hold out for years; the children were starving. Example and perhaps the most onerous one. The Government accused them of using the children as shields and then excused its final attack with a concern for the condition under which the children were living. The government was in fact using the concerns of the parents for their children having to live under the conditions the government imposed. Cold, callous, cruel use of children and their parents' concern for them. Here we have seven weeks, 51 days, of allegation and innuendo none of which has substantiation and we have the majority of the country agreeing with the government. We had constant new rumors all of which were instigated by the government. Now watching carefully we have the anatomy of the Big Lie and it is not what we sort of imagine it to be. It is not the repetition of the same lie over and over in some clumsy manner. It is varying statements and images around many existing themes. It is not one huge lie but rather constant insinuation and half statements letting people's imagination fill in the missing parts. It is not creating new lies but rather connecting the target with what is already considered evil. Confusion was first sown with conflicting statements, conflicting only over which type of bad it was they were guilty of. Then the imagery of terrorism, messiah, allusions to what others have done started. (It is interesting to hear the government reassure everyone over and over this was not a Jim Jones situation with no evidence anyone had ever asked the question.) What has happened is the imagination pump has been primed. In absense of coherent information people are filling in the blanks with what they believe to be parallel matters and attributing them to this incident. There is nothing new about people filling in the blanks when information is missing. It is the classic psych eval of "tell me about the situation in this picture." If you ever need to start a big lie don't ever get the idea you need a mustache and ten thousand cheering listeners to do it. The Koresh incident is a great blue print. Is it any wonder the Jews were easy picking for the Nazis? * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric -- Fidonet: 1:3603/326 Internet: mgiwer@mechanic.fidonet.org Note: These are only my own opinions...but others may agree! From: graul@socrates.ucsf.edu (Rick Graul) Subject: Re: Massacre Specifics (Was Re: VIDEO OF FLAME THROWING TANKS EXISTS) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 06:09:11 GMT jrg@aladdin.aero.org writes: >is worthless. Wake up! Nobody wanted all of those childern to die in >Waco. I they had they wouldn't have waited so long. None of the tanks I >saw had a flamethrower attachment. Anybody who says otherwise is lying to >themselves. Wake up yourself. I don't know about any flame throwing attachment, but I saw flames coming out the turet of the tank as it backed away from the building, pulling its turet out of a hole it had punched in the building. I saw this on TV on the day of the fire. I see it every time I watch the tape, "Waco, the Big Lie." Why don't you look at the tape for yourself? Do you seen the flame coming out of the turet? Can someone with a video capture card please post an mpeg of this scene to alt.binaries.pictures.misc ? I don't know if the fire was intentional or not. How could I? What I do know is that I have not heard any explanation from any official source for the flame coming out of the tank's turet. The official story is that they used a non-flamable tear gas. Net rumor has it that an acetone dispersant was also used. This makes has much sense as pumping propane into the building and, I admit, is hard to believe. Recently I heard on the news that one of the tanks may have inadvertantly blocked the exit from the underground bunker where most of the BDs were during the fire -- the tank was parked over the exit. In the tape, "Waco, the Big Lie," they assert that the the exit was blocked intentionaly. The FBI knew the layout of the compound and had inserted fiber optic cables into the compound, as well as electronic bugs. The FBI knew where everyone was at all times. Did the tank *intentionly* block the exit? How could I know? I do know that on September 15 the records to the Waco investigation will be sealed. Why? To protect investigative techniques? Maybe. But it will definitely conceal the truth from the American public and save the asses of the BATF and the FBI. We're not likely to find out the truth of this fiasco anytime soon, if ever. Rick -- Rick Graul Subject: Liquidating Dissident 1/2 From: searchnet.zec@channel1.com (Searchnet Zec) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 02:17:00 -0500 Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem Original From: MICHAEL SHIRLEY FORWARDED To: GLENDA STOCKS MESSAGE Date/Number: 09/17/93 - 0000532 On: PC-OHIO - 0669 - WEIRD-AN ----------------------------------------------------------------------- GS> This received virtually no publicity because the media were >kept under wraps. On a story of this magnitude, reporters and >cameramen normally would have been on the scene providing first- >hand coverage. But in this instance the press acquiesced in >extraordinary restraints. Political agenda. The press is extremely supportive of gun control and reportage of the government's really raw behavior would tend to cause people to feel a great deal of sympathy for Koresh and his followers. One should also keep in mind that the reason that the feds went after Koresh to begin with was in an effort to establish the legal precident that knowledge plus capability equaled proof of intent. The feds wanted to establish their rather iffy precident, (which would have given thought crimes a legal existance) without much chance of a real legal challenge. They did that by picking on somebody who was unlikely to get any help from the usual collection of bleeding hearts such as the ACLU. As an example of how this works, next time you go to a coffee shop, ask the waitress how the taxes on her tips are figured. The IRS holds anyone who recieves tips, responsible for 8 percent of gross reciepts. How they achieved that goal is worth a little consideration. What the IRS did when they wanted to establish the precidents which permit tips to be taxed, was to go after the housekeeping staff at the Mustang Bridge Ranch Brothel, about 8 miles east of here. The housekeepers were handed an administrative judgement for tax evasion and the housekeepers lost in court because nobody wanted to stand up for the rights of a bunch of people who made a living changing sheets in a whorehouse. Once the precident was established, it was extended to everyone. Given the fact that most gaming employees here depend on tips for a large part of their incomes, it's a hot topic over here. That's what the feds wanted to do with Koresh. Notice that no illegal weapons were ever found in the wreckage of his compound. Also, if you can find anyone who still has a tape of the network coverage of the original raid, strip off the sound track and listen to it. I ran the track through my mixing board and what I found was that there was no automatic weapons fire during the raid. None at all. The weapons that BATF claimed that Koresh had, have an average cyclic rate of fire of around 600 rounds per minute. At no time in the soundtrack that I did my analysis on, did I find a rate of fire exceeding around 35 rounds per minute. The pitch of the firing, and the rate of fire was consistant with a .22 semiautomatic rifle being fired as fast as the trigger could be pulled. Undiciplined fire, most certainly. Ineffective wastage of ammunition, definitely. Fire from Class-3 weapons as defined by the National Firearms Act of 1934, most certainly not. I also wonder if it isn't true that the ATF agents who were killed didn't fall to friendly fire. In the network footage, one sees a lot of agents firing from ranges of around 300 meters with pistols, (which in the hands of an expert are accurate to around 40 meters) who were firing an undefined targets. I was always taught that you had to have a defined target that had to be armed and presenting a real threat to me or to innocent parties before I fired. (US Army Riot Control and Civil Disturbance Course, which I took back in 77.) From what I saw in the Network footage, that doesn't seem to reflect BATF operational policy however. GS> Search and arrest warrants were sealed, and when government > agents settled down for what was to be a seven-week siege, the >press was allowed to get no closer than two miles from the Branch >Davidian compound. What was it Heinlein once said, something about "Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." GS>FLAME THROWER IDENTIFIED > "It was an M67A1 tank manufactured by Chrysler," she said. >This tank, equipped with a flamethrower, is no longer in service >and, according to Thompson, had to be taken from "the graveyard" >for the Waco assignment. The clear implication is that the >government deliberately set fire to the Branch Davidian compound, >killing some 17 children and 69 adults. Sounds about right. An M-67A1 is essentially an M-48A3 MOD B with the ammo storage replaced by a pressurized fuel system and the main gun replaced by a flamethrower. It wasn't terribly popular among armor crewmen because one hit and the crew was likely to wind up as crispy critters. Most of those produced were for the Marines and all were out of service by the time that I enlisted back in 76. Most of the vehicles were either converted back to M-48A3 configuration or employed as hard targets for gunnery training. GS> I asked how she found out about the M67A1, a little-know >weapon to which even Jane's Armour and Artillery gives only brief >mention. "The driver who drove it from Fort Hood called me," she >said. That I can believe. Ft. Hood has extensive gunnery ranges and so the presence of old junk like the M-67A1 isn't much of a surprize. I've seen the most amazing junk in boneyards and on gunnery ranges. (I wish that I owned a lot of it, and some the stuff that winds up being a sitting duck really makes you want to cry. (On the gunnery ranges at Indian Springs AFB, there used to be a really pretty RF-84F Thunderflash recon plane, a really rare bird. Looking at the machinegun bullet holes in it really hurt. I've also seen M4A3 76 W/HVSS, (aka the M4A3E8 Sherman) and M3 Grant tanks driven out onto the impact area of a number of ranges where they were literally shot to pieces.) Putting the flamethrower in that tank back into service must have been a lot of work since the parts needed to overhaul it simply don't exist in the supply system anymore. If it had been me doing that lousy job, I think that I would have gone to outside industrial supply houses and built a new flamethrower and mounted it on a more modern vehicle. GS> Already, The Washington Post reports, the Waco embarrassment >has prompted a major reshuffle at the ATF. Some officials may be >forced to retire, the Post says, and the chief of the >intelligence division could be denied "future promotions." The only thing that these people are forebidden is failure, and if they are punished at all it will be for having not established the precident that they were sent out to establish and for having embarassed their masters in front of the media. The murder of 80 men, women and children is totally meaningless to them in this regard. Such punishments seem hardly proportionate. No, but then one must understand that respect for the law and a sense of justice is totally lacking in the people who are responsible for this mass murder. GS> How is it that federal agents responsible for the death of >more than 80 men, women and children may be permitted to retire or >even to keep their present jobs? That is easy enough to understand. As long as you have a government that elevates the rule of expediency and it's own ideological and institutional agenda above the rights of individual citizens and it's own basic laws, then incidents like this will happen. Activist governments bent on social engineering, tend to impose laws which don't enjoy a moral consensus among those who will be governed by them. For any law to work, it must pretty much be self enforcing. The real test of any law is that if someone is wrongly accused of violating the law, the person accused still believes that the violation of that particualar law is deserving of punishment, even if he himself is innocent. When that essential condition isn't satisfied, then the government has the choice of either passively sitting back and watching people indulge in a whosale refusal to obey the government's demands, or it can engage in state terrorism against the civil populace so that they will be frightened into passive acquiesence to what can only be described as a tyranny. Now, any government which is determined to be a tyranny, must have a group of henchmen who are ready, willing and able to do the dirty work of the police state. They can't be relied upon to commit the outrages that are necessary to cultivate terror in a civilian population if they must look over their shoulders and worry about eventual prosecution for their "war crimes". The result is that secret policemen, and their associated "Einsatsgruppen", (the guys in the black ninja suits at Waco, or in the Weaver case readily come to mind) must by the very nature of their work be above the law. In view of the above, I'm truly amazed that Clinton or the Himmler of his regime, Janet Reno, (she is far too flamboyant to be a Beria even if she doesn't trick herself out in weird uniforms, (YET!)) didn't pin medals on all of the participants of the Einsatsgruppen Action in Waco. Or perhaps they have and didn't tell anyone...... While mulling that one over, you might also want to consider Steven Higgins (BATF Director) testimony before Congress where he defended the tactics used in Waco by stating that they had been employed during 346 raids which had been conducted against survivalist and cult groups in the previous 18 months. IMHO, a single Waco or Weaver, or Lawmaster incident could be written off as an anomalie, but when you get 346 of them, it begins to look like the government is quietly liquidating dissident groups, and if that isn't an internal war, it must certainly be considered to be a precursor to one. --- RM 1.2 00257 SearchNet 508-586-6977 Download SEARCHNT.ZIP From: bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) Subject: Conspiracy for the Day -- September 28, 1993 Date: 27 Sep 1993 23:08:13 GMT Conspiracy for the Day -- September 28, 1993 ============================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") #################################### ## Tuesday -- DOUBLE FEATURE ## ## "...stupid, bloody Tuesday..." ## #################################### ----------------------------------------------------------------- =(1)= Memo to God (For Future Reference) [From "Anarchy", #38/Fall '93, Vol. 13, No. 4] (We Pray You, Do Not Send the Messiah Unless The Messiah is Nice, the Messiah Obeys American Laws and the Messiah Co-operates with the FBI.) In order to rationalize events in Waco, a lot of rhetoric has been drawn from pop psychology. Koresh was "psychopathic," "sick," "suffered from paranoid delusions." There was also a kind of theologization of Koresh, so that he was spoken of as if he was Satan: the fires which consumed him were the flames of Hell. Not the flames of a burning home. This kind of rhetoric, on the covers of magazines and on TV, suggests they defeated the Devil down in Texas. But nobody defeated Satan. There was no Satan in Waco. There were people. We never penetrate the facades placed before us, representing the "truth" of Waco. Nowhere have I seen any serious discussion of the consequences if Koresh really *was* the messiah. I am not advocating this view. But if you're Christian, ask yourself why you did not ask: Could this man be the messiah? Must the True Messiah abide by the laws of an imperfect nation-state? Does resistance to the FBI prove a man or woman is not the True Messiah? Now, very few people believe in a Coming Age. If there really is a "God," and if this God "sent" a divine incarnation to live among us, to usher in a millenium of perfect peace, would that Messiah get good press? Or would we simply kill him? Something to think about, now that a man is dead. From: ebb7683@venus.tamu.edu (Ed Blackman) Subject: Re: Commerce clause (was: Libertarians intolerant? Rant on!) Date: 1 Oct 1993 01:39 CDT In article <28cul8$kbn@garuda.csulb.edu>, sichermn@beach.csulb.edu (Jeff Sicherman) writes... >In article <28c7sb$m59@uc.msc.edu>, Anthony L. Kimball wrote: [...] >>When the federal government kills 81 people, >>and its chief executive says this is a warning, it has the full force >>of law. > Of course you're now assuming all kinds of things not in evidence. >Fist of all, the available information strongly suggests that the Branch >davidians killed themselves. Secondly, their enclave was the subject of >investigation and (however ill-advised, ill-planned, and ill-conducted) >attack because of suspected firearms laws violations - i.e. actions - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >not because of their beliefs, religious or otherwise. You might want to put laws in quotes, there, because it isn't the law in two federal districts. The "laws" involved in the Waco fiasco are portions of the 1934 National Firearms Act (I think that's the name), which give the federal government control over machine guns through the taxing power of Congress. The trouble is that since 1986, the feds haven't been accepting the tax. Two federal circuit courts have ruled that since the feds don't accept the tax, they don't have the power that having the tax gave them. Strangely, the federal government hasn't appealed to the SC. I guess they figure it's better to be able to violate the Constitution in all the federal circuits but two rather than not being able to do so at all. Unfortunately for Mr. Howell, Waco isn't in either of those two circuits. But perhaps something good can come out of the Waco disaster. Perhaps we can add another circuit that at least _pretends_ to follow the Constitution every once in a while. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-( J'ai une ame solitaire )=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | Ed Blackman | Another PROUD OS/2 user!!! | | Internet: EBB7683@zeus.tamu.edu | and developer!!! | | Fido : 1:117/110 |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=| |=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "What is it that gentlemen wish? What| | would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased | | at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not | | what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me | | death!" - Patrick Henry | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=( Boycott Microsoft )-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From: jad@hopper.ACS.Virginia.EDU (John DiNardo) Subject: Movement to Punish Gov't Fascists Who Massacred 86 U.S.Citizens at Waco Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 17:31:59 GMT Movement to Punish Gov't Fascists Who Massacred 86 U.S. Citizens at Waco ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone sent me a published article, excerpts of which follow. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * For several weeks, we have been relating details about the Waco tragedy. Upon substantiation by several other well-known prophecy experts, we learned that the information contained on our new video, THE WACO TRAGEDY (available in this issue), is on target. We also learned that recent revelations concerning Waco include United Nations intervention by a little-known force called FINCEN, assigned to work in conjunction with a United States force called MJTF. MJTF (Multi-Jurisdictional Task Force) is composed of a consolidation of agents from the following United States Government agencies: the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the Drug Enforcement Agency, the INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE[?] and other U.S. Governmnent police organizations. According our source, the MJTF goal is: "to conduct house-to-house search and seizure, separation and categorization of men, women and children in large numbers, categorization and transfer to detention facilities and the running of detention facilities." WAS WACO "ONE OF THE MOST BIZARRE LAW ENFORCEMENT ABUSES OF POWER IN UNITED STATES HISTORY"? FINCEN -- A United Nations Unit on United States Soil? Who are these detention facilities being prepared for? Our sources indicate that the United States Government -- aided by FINCEN -- is in the process of rounding up cult members on a large-scale basis! Apparently, FINCEN, made up of foreign military and secret police that number about three hundred thousand in the U.S. to date, is the United Nations's next level of law enforcement. Most shockingly of all, our sources reveal that the first attempt to introduce FINCEN forces to the American Public happened at Waco! [JD: I wonder about that. There were claims that the assault on the family of Randy Weaver at Ruby Creek, Idaho, months earlier by the FBI, BATF, et al, was joined by foreign United Nations troops. And I believe that the same kind of mysterious unmarked black helicopters which appear on the Waco video also were spotted in the assault on the Weaver family.] The attempt was to introduce the FINCEN troops as something good. The plan involves making FINCEN forces acceptable before using FINCEN again against United States citizens. Did everyone not notice the black-suited armed forces, the black helicopters and the black, unmarked, heavy-armored, 58-ton tank used to bulldoze the compound and tear down buildings? What of the little children who were among the eighty-six occupants? [JD: The slaughtered children include David Koresh's infant child. Did anyone consider the children [among the United States citizens] when the United States Government's ground forces shot tear gas canisters into the compound's headquarters? The troops which the United States Government claims were from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms were actually FINCEN troops and equipment, we're told. Operation Waco has been described by intelligence sources as "one of the most bizarre law enforcement abuses of power in United States history." Another official testified, "The ATF attack was one of the weirdest, most bizarre law enforcement actions" he said he had ever seen. But as one looks beneath the surface of the Waco tragedy, the story becomes even stranger. CALLING ALL CULTS In the midst of the Waco standoff, the liberal[?] media established its own set of guidelines as to what constitutes "a dangerous religious cult." Its working definition includes: * A strong belief in the Bible * A belief in the second coming of Christ * Frequent attendance at Bible studies * A high level of financial giving to the church or religious group * Home schooling of children * Accumulation of survival food and guns * An inordinate fear of the United States Government [JD: The Weaver family meets many of these criteria.] While this ministry does not condone David Koresh, his beliefs, or the Branch Davidians which he led, one can easily see the foregoing definition that if the U.S. Government could this easily storm the Waco compound of the Branch Davidians and bring about such a tragedy, practically any sincere, prophecy-loving, Bible-believing ministry could next come under its watchful eye! THE WACO EPISODE WAS, TO MANY, AN EXAMPLE OF THE POWERLESS BEING HARRASSED BY POWERFUL FEDERAL AGENTS. In our radio and television ministry since the Waco tragedy, we have sought to continually maintain that if the United States Government could this easily assault a religious compound in Waco, Texas, they could eventually assault our God's News Behind the News Headquarters in St. Petersburg, Florida ... or any other ministry's headquarters, for that matter! Why are we so alarmed? Because plans are now underway for the one-world government [deleted religious opinion]. There is already a United Nations World Constituion which states: "The age of nations must end ... The governments of the nations have decided to order their separate sovereignties into one government to which they surrender their arms." Refusal to surrender arms may mark one for assignment to one of their FINCEN-operated detention camps. [JD: If you have doubts about this warning, maybe readers can repost some of the many articles posted to alt.conspiracy regarding President Reagan's right-hand fascist, Marine Colonel Oliver North and his FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) plot to sweep up dissident citizens who would inevitably emerge in opposition to Reagan's since-aborted war plans against Nicaragua. Indeed, any reposted articles about FEMA should be convincing.] We have learned that United Nations Battle Groups inside the United States and Canada are already being prepared, and reports also indicate that the United States has been divided into ten regional areas where these detention centers have been set up: in Florida, Virginia, Georgia, New York, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Arizona and California. [JD: I suggest that readers mail copies of this article to Jack McLamb, Aid & Abet Police Newsletter, P.O. Box 8787, Phoenix, AZ 85066, to inform of or verify this information.] One can't help but recall the stark scenes of trains transporting prisoners in Hitler's Germany during the infamous World War II holocaust. In fact, in many ways, the actions by our United States Government at Waco, Texas were a bleak reminder of Nazi Germany, where news was managed and propaganda prevailed, and men like Joseph Goebbels tried to influence people to believe the government's slant on the news which always portrayed Hitler and his politics in the most favorable light. In Waco, news was also "managed." President Clinton pictured the followers of David Koresh as a "bunch of fanatics," and totally responsible for the events that transpired on the day the compound went up in flames. It is even likely that there were many who thought, "Good riddance!" when the Branch Davidians perished. This same philosophy came to characterize Nazi Germany. And we must never forget what happened there. When President Clinton dedicated the one hundred and sixty-eight million dollar Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., commemorating the six million Jews who perished at the hands of the Nazis, the President noted that Germany was "the most civilized nation of its day." We must not forget that what happened in Germany could happen to us! [JD: .... IS happening to us!] .... [for the sake of brevity, deleted more details of the standoff] Meanwhile, David Koresh had promised to come out safely and peaceably -- along with his followers -- after completing his manuscript about the Seven Seals, mentioned in the Book of Revelations. In good faith, Koresh accepted a typewriter ribbon the night before the fiery inferno. But the next morning, a new ultimatum was sounded for all in the compound to come out. Then, an armed assault followed which ripped holes in the buildings, through which gaseous white powder was hurled inside. Dick DeGuerin, Koresh's attorney, said that the FBI's decision to bombard the compound changed all the rules. DeGuerin pointed out, "The situation changed when the FBI went back and injected tear gas and ripped apart the walls." .... One of the most disturbing aspects of the Waco incident is its tie- in via FINCEN to the One-World Movement [conspiracy]. If that is, in fact, the case, then the American Public has not been told the truth. Joan Lester, in the San Francisco Examiner, noted, "There are lies ... damn lies and statistics." In one bold objective of the One-World Government, plans are underway to disallow religious training [of any and all religions] in the home and in the church. We must remember Pastor Everett Siliven who was jailed because he held classes in his church. Peter Hoagland, Nebraska State Senator, has stated: "Fundamental, Bible-believing people do not have the right to indoctrinate their children in their religious beliefs because we, the State, are preparing them for the year 2000, when America will be part of a one-world global society, and their children will not fit in." According to the NEW AGE/NEW WORLD GOVERNMENT PLANS, there are well- laid strategies already in place which will culminate before the year 2000 to usher the United States -- along with the rest of the nations of the world -- into a global community allegedly under the control of the United Nations. No wonder John Rankin, U.S. Congressman, said, "The United Nations is the greatest fraud in all history. Its purpose is to destroy the United States." We're told that the next move to watch for is an attempt to remove all weapons from all United States citizens where FINCEN troops are in operation. When the United States sends troops abroad -- whether to Somalia, Yugoslavia or Peru -- one of the first orders of business is to confiscate weapons. For this, we must be prepared. Dr. Kurt Koch, a professor who has lectured at 100 universities in sixty-five countries on the topic of "The New World Order," states that this new system will be a system in which "each person will have a registered number, without which he will not be allowed to buy or sell; and there will be one universal world church. Anyone who refuses to take part in this universal system will have no right to exist." [deleted more religious opinion] (end of excerpts) ____________________________________________________________________ A videotape: "THE WACO TRAGEDY" is advertised at the end of the article, published by: GOD'S NEWS BEHIND THE NEWS P.O. Box 10475 St. Petersburg, FL 33733 1(813) 347-2463 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I would like to suggest that patriots of conscience seriously consider organizing a citizens' legal campaign to try, convict and sentence to severe punishment ALL of the criminals infesting the People's Government of the United States of America, no matter how high their office, who are culpable for this heinous massacre of American men, women and children. I intend to mail this article to: William Davis The Christic Institute 8773 Venice Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90034 (310) 287-1556 and to pledge to donate $50 to the institute if, and only if, they join with our expanding citizens' movement to bring the traitorous mass murderers to justice. Christic is a public interest legal institute which has been crippled by the U.S. Government for its previous lawsuit against a CIA terrorist bombing. I urge readers to flood the office of the Christic Institute with documentation on the Waco massacre and the incarceration of Livingstone Fagan -- documentation that has been posted to the net since March and which should be reposted at this time. Let Bill Davis know that citizens will provide the muscle to wield the sword of legality against these fascist traitors who have subverted the People's Government of the United States to a degree that enables them to subjugate and even massacre American citizens. John DiNardo From: dannyb@panix.com (danny burstein) Subject: Re: ATF's Director Higgins resigns Date: 30 Sep 1993 01:23:53 -0400 (text of press release and other stuff regarding Higgins deleted) I fell compelled to point out a major error in this. Higgins has NOT resigned. He has RETIRED. Thusly, he has the benefits of a (roughly) 85% of salary pension, perhaps more, and a full medical package, etc. ANd, if he can sleaze a "medical disability" deal here, it would be tax-free as well. dannyb@panix.com -- ---------------------------------- dannyb@panix.com adds: all the usual disclaimers regarding liability, intelligence, accuracy apply. spelling disclaimer is doubled. and... while science is pretty sure that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, we're not quite so sure it'll be shining.... From: bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) Subject: Conspiracy for the Day -- October 5, 1993 Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:09:30 GMT [Followups to alt.conspiracy] Conspiracy for the Day -- October 5, 1993 =========================================== ("Quid coniuratio est?") #################################### ## Tuesday -- DOUBLE FEATURE ## ## "...stupid, bloody Tuesday..." ## #################################### ----------------------------------------------------------------- =(1)= [R.W. Bradford, editor and publisher of "Liberty" magazine, notes the following in the October, 1993 issue:] Viva la videotape, again -- In the June *Liberty*, I observed that Janet Reno had virtually confessed to the murder of the Branch Davidians in her public statements defending the decision to attack them with tanks and poison gas. But I did not believe her confession; more likely, I figured, she was a posturing politician, ineptly trying to portray her behavior as positively as possible, unaware of the implications of what she was saying. It seemed to me that the fiery death of the Davidians was the result of bureaucratic ineptitude, at most "mass negligent homicide." A reader sent me a videotape produced by the American Justice Federation that calls my conclusion into question. It quite plainly shows a tank shooting fire into one of the buildings, as FBI agents calmly jump from the roof and walk away just after the fires are started. And that's not all: there are also images of FBI tanks breaking holes into the underground bunkers, which could explain how the poison gas got to those Davidians who had been taking refuge in the bunkers at the time of the assault. The tape also shows footage of the original assault on Feb. 29, and it surely looks as if the Davidians are *not* returning the ATF's fire. In one chilling episode, an ATF agent throws two grenades through a window through which three other ATF agents have just broken into the compound, and then rakes the interior with machine-gun fire. The narrator says that the three agents who had preceeded the grenade-tossing machine gunner were all killed. I'm not surprised. The tape concludes with the ATF flag triumphantly -- and ominously -- flying over the smoldering ruins. I am no expert on authenticating videotapes, so I suppose it is possible that what I saw was somehow faked. But it certainly looked like the tapes of the original raid and of the scene that I had seen on television. If these scenes were faked, someone went to a lot of trouble to duplicate the Davidian compound. If federal prosecutors actually take their case against the survivors to trial, they will have to deal with the videotape that I saw, as well as substantial amounts of additional videotape produced by the BATF and the FBI. Unless, of course, the FBI and ATF have already destroyed or doctored *their* video record. ----------------------------------------------------------------- New address to get the Waco, the Big Lie, videotape: (Make checks payable to American Justice Federation) WACO PO Box 14 Beech Grove, IN 46107 New feature: To order by Visa/Mastercard: 1-800-758-0308 $19.95 + $3 shipping and handling. From: lwb@cs.utexas.edu (Lance W. Bledsoe) Subject: Re: Conspiracy for the Day -- October 5, 1993 Date: 11 Oct 1993 14:00:50 -0500 In article <60.25387.4607.0N185E61@canrem.com>, Financial Opportunities wrote: >Sorry: a quick addendum to my last message! The three ATF agents who >were apparently killed have all been miraculously resurrected and are >back at work, and that one has since appeared on CNN? The ATF now admits >that their deaths were "staged". > - John W. This is like saying that the ATF has said that they torched the compound on purpose. What evidence/documentation do you have for this? Are you in charge of govt. disinformation??? Lance -- "Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. You might dodge sucessfully for a while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you." -- George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four From: greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield) Subject: Re: [ALAWON] Better federal FOIA response? Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 10:09:13 EDT In article <29772h$bed@cs.umb.edu> jbb@terminus.cs.umb.edu (John B. Brown) writes: > > Are you serious or are you being facetious. The autopsy would >be performed by a local coroner. The federal government isn't in that >business. Further investigations might be conducted by a state agency, >such as the Texas Rangers, but the reports would be part of the local >county records. Autopsy reports are part of the public record; no need >for FOIA requests. The state records are also open after the case is >closed. Hmm. This past summer I called the Onondaga County (Syracuse, NY) Bureau of Vital Statistics to see if I could get from them a cause of death for a friend of mine. I was informed that autopsy reports were *not* public record, and were only available to family members. -- J. S. Greenfield greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (I like to put 'greeny' here, but my d*mn system wants a *real* name!) "What's the difference between an orange?" Subject: Re: Conspiracy for the Day -- October 5, 1993 From: financial.opportunities@canrem.com (Financial Opportunities) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 19:57:00 -0400 Hi, Lance: As promised, here's the sourcing for the item I posted on the three apparently resurrected ATF agents [if you disagree with its contents, Lance, remember I'm just reporting it - if the U.S. government knew MY views on Waco, they sure wouldn't want to have me speaking for them!] The following vertabim conversation has been transcribed from an two-hour interview which Tom Valentine had with Ken Fawcett, the independent Waco researcher [more on him at some other time - he's a courageous guy!] on RADIO FREE AMERICA, a short-wave programme aired on WWCR Radio [on band 49, at 5810] between 22:00 and 24:00 EST on October 6th, 1993: KF: "The big thing now, of course, everybody knows that the three agents that went into the famous window on the roof have now returned to work, and they're all back at ATF doing their jobs." HOST: "So that whole thing about these are the three agents killed by a hand grenade going in, that was not true?" KF: "That was 'faked for the camera' to use Sheriff Harwell's words when he was talking to David Kuresh there in the first week of the standoff, on the phone. But David was very upset about it, saying that it was all over the world, and that they had actually helped one of those guys who was accidentally injured in the room, they helped him back out of the window". HOST: "The Branch Davidians actually helped him out?" KF: "Exactly. So he was very upset that this was being put out all over the world, and it made it look as though they were a bunch of murderers, and couldn't get a fair trial. I mean, it appeared that the government controlled everything, including the media, so what chance would they have in the free world?" CALLER: "First, my big question is the three guys who went through the window there. I couldn't believe it when you said they were still alive yet. Now, I was wondering first of all, I don't recall hearing anything in the normal media that these three agents were still alive yet". HOST: "Well, the normal media's never even had much to say about those guys going into the window". CALLER: "Well, they did mention that there were three agents that were killed, right?" HOST: "I've never heard any of the details of how they were killed in any report anywhere". KF: "Well, the version of how they were killed has now been changed three times. That story that the three were killed in the room in a gunfight was promulgated the very first week of the siege by Dan Conroy in one of those little press briefings. It was later repudiated by David Troy, in other words he changed the events about the third week of the standoff, and now its been changed by Keith Constantino and again by the Treasury Dept. in their review. And I understand that the official version that they're going to take into court in January is that one agent died on the roof, one in the chapel [which is just below the roof there where they went in] and that two died on the ground. That's the latest version - that's the fourth version now that they've put out on how and where these agents were killed...That's the version that will be taken into court, as far as I know, unless they change it for the fifth time". [Sorry, guys, out of time: I'll complete posting this next time] Cheers! John W. Subject: WACO Independent Investigation From: financial.opportunities@canrem.com (Financial Opportunities) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 20:32:00 -0400 Just to complete the transcription of the interview with Ken Fawcett on WWCR: CALLER: "I caught the tail end of a statement that Ken said, and I wanted to make sure that I heard it right. Ken, did you say that the three officers that went into David's supposed room went back to work? Not killed?" KF: "Yes - they were not killed, and the ATF has confirmed that in their report. Also they said that Keith Constantino came on CNN back in May after the fire and said that those three guys are all back at work and that he was the last of the three that was rehabilitated from his injury. But I talked with an agent named Claire in the Secret Service and also the director of the Waco review there in the Treasury Department and they both said 'Yes, none of those agents died"." CALLER: "Now what about the one who was climbing the ladder? Did he in fact shoot himself in the foot?" KF: "It certainly appears that he did, but without the hospital reports I would have to say based upon what I saw on there that he definitely shot himself" HOST: "Is it possible to find out who that officer is who is going up the ladder and looks like he is shooting himself in the foot?" KF: "Well, I would certainly like to say that if we ever get into a Congressional investigation, where we can subpoena these poeple one at a time and then we can get to the bottom of every injury, get the hospital records in there, then we can find out who that was." The whole two-hour interview is informative, and has some fascinating revelations. If anyone wants a copy of the tape, send me $5 [purely to cover the cost of a double length cassette and mailing - this is not for profit, guys!] and I'll gladly send anyone anywhere one. Address any requests to: JOHN WHITLEY 250 EGLINTON AVE. EAST Box 89535 TORONTO, ONT. M4P 3E1 If you want a copy of Ken Fawcett's 10-page report on Waco, send $2 to cover cost of materials and postage to: WACO INDEPENDENT REVIEW 124 LINDA LANE ROYSE CITY TEXAS 75169 Additional information is also available from the CSA [whatever that is] at [214] 264 6756. My tired fingers now gratefully sign off, having served everyone their big "fix" for the day! [we're all just "news-junkies" really!] Cheers! John W. From: gregg.kaufman@support.com Subject: RE: FBI AND WACO (WAS RE: FEDERAL POR Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 23:48:56 Somebody writes, (in tota ignorance of what is avaible on the boards Re WACO): > >: I have to agree with Michael on this point. The real murders are > the > >: stupid parents that put their children in that position to begin > with. > >: Anyone stupid enough to follow such a nut case and his ilk really > > >: don't need to be reproducing anyway. The real murders can be clearly seen using FLAMETHROWERS on innocent women and children in the video WACO: The Big Lie. I know scores of people who;ve seen it. No one doubts that this a real flamethrower.. Don;t take my word. Get your own copy. call 1 800-758-0308 for Visa/MC orders. The FBI even admits that the tape shows something that looks like flames, but they're not yet willing to admit that they were emenating from the tank "intentionally". The Waco case should prove to all Americans that what happened to Nazi Germany can happen here just as easily. The fruitcake tht posted the above has shown that with a little governmental propaganda exposure, millions of people will aid, abet and cheer as the government exterminates its own. Substitute "Jews" for Branch Davidians in 80% of the media coverage and you'll see what I mean. Kill Jews because they are filthy money grubbers becomes "Kill Cult members because they are flipped out religous kooks." How about "innocent until found guilty in a court of law by a jury of 12 peers"? From: nuffy@ornews.intel.com (John Hagler) Subject: Re: FBI AND WACO (WAS RE: FEDERAL POR Date: 16 Oct 1993 13:48:47 -0700 gregg.kaufman@support.com writes: >The real murders can be clearly seen using FLAMETHROWERS on innocent women >and children in the video WACO: The Big Lie. >I know scores of people who;ve seen it. No one doubts that this a real >flamethrower.. Don;t take my word. Get your own copy. >call 1 800-758-0308 for Visa/MC orders. >The FBI even admits that the tape shows something that looks like flames, but >they're not yet willing to admit that they were emenating from the tank >"intentionally". Ummm....I bought the tape and it isnt as "So Blatantly Incredibly Full of Facts as To Remove all Doubt" as so many would have you believe. The guy throws what appears to be a grenade ( I think) then shoots into the window. This is after 3 guys go in and then the camera cuts off of them then the next you see is the guy away from the window then he goes down and does the grenade then shoots inside. I mean ....how much time elapsed??? It wasnt like the guys went in then their cohort unleashes a grenade and bullets on them all in one continuous shot. Plus you couldnt see in the window so who knows what was in there?? On this point anyone could say hey...a bunch of BD's attacked and killed the guys and the guy outside threw the grenade after his buddies were slaughtered??? Plus now the guys are still alive???? Is this true???? What does L Thompson say?? The tanks sittting outside the bunker thingy. Not exactly obvious that thats what was happening. Ive shot a fully auto AR-15 most of the fire I heard was semi-auto. Were they using silencers?? It sure seems louder when you are holding the gun. The fire is obvious from the tank, though. Though it isnt like shooting out like I imagined (of course that would be hard to disguise if they had done that. The scenes of the dead guy on the fence and on top of the building werent too obvious either. Anyways....my point is that much of the tape is conjecture....not proof. I believe the BD's were slaughtered and that Randy Weaver was lucky he lived ( I own a min-14 semi auto assault rifle....of which R Weaver had 2) and fear the day they try to ban it. But people we need to be sure we have the 'proof' we claim to have so we arent labeled as Whackos. The tape raises enough questions to warrant investigation but doesnt prove anything. My opinion only. john -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |nuffy@ornews.intel.com | I'm actually you in disguise | |Intel hates my opinions | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: an27551@anon.penet.fi Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:25:08 UTC Subject: Why the Branch Davidians? I am in the process of ordering Linda Thompson's video, so while I cannot comment directly on the visual evidence, I have read enough about the incident to conclude that a fatal cancer is growing on the Clinton Presidency, a Presidency I voted for. My initial bewilderment about this whole tragedy began when I read that the FBI/ATF agents were blasting amplified tapes of rabbits being slaughtered all night long. This seemed so bizarre as not to be believed, but in looking back, it seems a portent of what was to come. My first indignation was that this was such a torturous thing to do to the little children in that compound. As a parent, I wept for those children who must have been so frightened in what was to be their last pitiful days. For this, I concluded, Janet Reno should be relieved of all duties. I called the White House and demanded an end to this torture. This was unadulterated child abuse, pure and simple. I don't think Reno has children, does she? If she did, I could not see any caring mother allowing this to take place. When the smoke cleared, I wept again for the children who were burned to death. I was told both that lanterns set off the fire and that the Davidians set off the fires. Both came out as "official versions". Then I read where the fire department was not present, nor called to the scene until the inferno was raging. This seemed inconceivable. But what about the children? Didn't anyone say, "My, God, there are children in there. We must save them!" Apparently not. Now there seems to be a growing suspicion based on what appears to be a credible amount of evidence that not only did the US government set the fires, but blocked the escape routes as well. I'll have to see this for myself, but its obvious the major media is beginning to smell a scandal that will destroy the Presidency, and I think it is too late to save Clinton. Is he an innocent in this? I'd like to think so, but I'm troubled by the big question in the aftermath of all this: Why did it happen? Why was David Koresh's group assaulted? I'm told it was because of child abuse, but early on it was known that the Texas Child Welfare Authority had investigated these allegations a number of times and concluded that they were false. Then I was told it was because he had illegal automatic weapons. But then no one could produce evidence that he had bought automatic weapons. Then the government said that he had stockpiled an arsenal. Every person in that compound, children included, has the Constitutional right to own as many legal firearms as they want. Every sale of firearms to the Davidians was legal. So then, how many would constitute an arsenal? Would not the collected guns of all the members of the NRA consitute an arsenal assembled by a non-militia organization? Well, the government countered this with an allegation that the Davidians bought parts to convert arms to semi-automatic weapons. These parts are routinely sold in gun mailorder catalogs. They were bought on the open legal market. Get the drift? I cannot see one illegal thing that the Davidians did which would convince a rational Justice Dept to order a full on assault on people who had committed no crime and who generally were known in Waco as peaceful people. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these End Days Christians, but I'm a patriotic American and I believe anyone has the right to believe anything they want to believe and has the right of assembly to profess those beliefs and the right to do so openly. I read a post of Koresh's last communications and his supposed revelations of the seventh seal. I can be as mystically religious as the next person, but David's revelation was.....well, it was kinda nutty sounding. I take my revelations seriously, and this sounded like a guy making it up---and not very well---as he went along. OK, I figured David Koresh for a nutty kind of guy, and I wasn't surprised. But that's not a crime. The Reverend Billy Graham, in his early tent revival days, predicted the end of the world a number of times, setting dates and the whole thing. Pretty nutty. Good for him and his bank account he wasn't correct, huh? But Koresh's nuttiness was then cited as a reason for the assault. But the government could have arrested him any number of times in Waco as he regularly went to town to buy auto parts, and from what I gather was known as a real nice guy. So, I'm baffled. Why was this guy considered a threat? If, as so many are now asserting, that this was a conspiracy, why were the Branch Davidians chosen? The Catholic Church, by it's own figures, estimates that maybe thousands of children have been molested by its priests, crimes that were known and not reported by the hierarchy. Why does the government not attack the Catholic Church? They certainly have legal grounds. Why the Davidians? And then I think....maybe the seventh seal was revealed, afterall. The sound of slaughtered rabbits? The incineration of innocent children? Sounds Biblical to me. I'd be interested in hearing theories. Please post your replies to the alt.conspiracy, as my mail server is limited in capacity. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. From: pat@rwing.UUCP (Pat Myrto) Subject: Re: Waco compared by wacko to Holocost. Date: 22 Oct 93 01:10:13 GMT In article ethanb@u.washington.edu writes: >There's a big difference between killing criminals in an attempt >(however inept) to arrest them and torturing and killing innocents. >To equate the Holocost with the Waco debacle is ridiculous. Really? What made them criminals? Wrong religeon? Owning guns? Just being wierd? Not wanting to play target? (the BATF did open up first, you know - were they just supposed to stand there and get shot to rags?) The government didn't have an indictment, or charges filed. Didn't have an arrest warrant, either. Just a search warrant. And a flaky one at that. It wasn't even a no-knock warrant. It was a normal, run-of-mill DAYTIME warrant (which is why it wasn't "served" in the middle of the night - it was totally invalid then). Is it considered acceptable to serve a search warrant by introducing oneself with grenades and bullets? Is the criterea determined by whether one is a member of a popular or 'protected' group or class of persons? Is it acceptable to shoot-on-sight merely because someone owns guns, or is of an unpopular creed? Considering that it is not illegal to own those guns, and no threatening acts had been reported? Is it acceptable to shoot-first-talk-later if one THINKS someone MIGHT own an illegal gun (actually a tax law violation)? Especially when all past contacts had been without resistance or problems? Are our civil rights under the Constitution conditional upon whether the government 'likes' us or not? Is it acceptable to make up stories about the target in order to get heavy weapons otherwised denied by law (the meth lab story)? Is it acceptable to tell lies so badly that they can't be kept straight from one night to the next in a CYA attempt on the nightly news? Is it acceptable to declare the target guilty of offenses that had been dismissed by acquittal, and were irrelevant to the issue at hand in an attempt to make the people hate the target, thus not get upset over the behavior violating just about every right under the Constitution? Weren't similar tactics used during the Warsaw uprising? Demonmizing. the whole bit? If all this is acceptable, your idea of a free society is markedly different than mine. But then, when one tells a lie often enough, and long enough, and makes sure all evidence is destroyed, people will tend to believe it. Hitler knew and used that to the max. There is a lot of truth in the saying that when one ignores history, one is doomed to have to repeat it. I think the Holocaust Museum -> eighty plus crispy critters in the same day is rather appropriate. -- pat@rwing.uucp [Without prejudice UCC 1-207] (Pat Myrto) Seattle, WA If all else fails, try: ...!uunet!pilchuck!rwing!pat WISDOM: "Travelling unarmed is like boating without a lifejacket". [Stop the Clipper/Capstone assault on privacy] From: svkizlik@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Stephen Kizlik) Subject: Re: Why the Branch Davidians? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 13:14:50 GMT an27551@anon.penet.fi writes: > I am in the process of ordering Linda Thompson's video, so while I cannot > comment directly on the visual evidence, I have read enough about the > incident to conclude that a fatal cancer is growing on the Clinton > Presidency, a Presidency I voted for. I am inclined to think of the Clinton presidency as being itself a cancer growing on the American political system, which is a cancer growing on America, which is a cancer growing on humanity. AAAaa! CanCer! Better call the AMA, get some drawn-out, ineffective chemotherapy for a few mil$! > My initial bewilderment about this whole tragedy began when I read that > the FBI/ATF agents were blasting amplified tapes of rabbits being slaughtered > all night long. This seemed so bizarre as not to be believed, but in looking > back, it seems a portent of what was to come. My first indignation was that > this was such a torturous thing to do to the little children in that > compound. As a parent, I wept for those children who must have been so > frightened in what was to be their last pitiful days. For this, I concluded, > Janet Reno should be relieved of all duties. I called the White House > and demanded an end to this torture. This was unadulterated child abuse, > pure and simple. I don't think Reno has children, does she? Let's all hope not. > If she did, I > could not see any caring mother allowing this to take place. > When the smoke cleared, I wept again for the children who were burned to > death. I was told both that lanterns set off the fire and that the Davidians > set off the fires. Both came out as "official versions". Then I read where > the fire department was not present, nor called to the scene until the > inferno was raging. This seemed inconceivable. But what about the children? > Didn't anyone say, "My, God, there are children in there. We must save > them!" Apparently not. > Now there seems to be a growing suspicion based on what appears to be a > credible amount of evidence that not only did the US government set the > fires, but blocked the escape routes as well. I'll have to see this for > myself, but its obvious the major media is beginning to smell a scandal that > will destroy the Presidency, and I think it is too late to save Clinton. Generally, that "Mark o' the Beast" thing is hard to put a good spin on. Also expect rising millenarianism in what remains of the '90's... could be a political force. > Is he an innocent in this? Hell no. None of those involved are, from President Kaise --- er, Clinton to Janet Reno to the individual Storm Troopers who "were just following orders." > I'd like to think so, but I'm troubled by > the big question in the aftermath of all this: Why did it happen? Why was > David Koresh's group assaulted? I'm told it was because of child abuse, but > early on it was known that the Texas Child Welfare Authority had investigated > these allegations a number of times and concluded that they were false. Then > I was told it was because he had illegal automatic weapons. II. A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be INFRINGED. Note: this dosen't read "of the police/armed forces/nat'l guard" and "violated completely." Amendment II was written to protect *your* RIGHT TO REVOLUTION. There are no illegal automatic weapons. There are, however, illegal gun laws. Frankly, I'd have liked to see the cultists better-armed. TANGENT: notice how the gun-control debate in our media centers on crime and personal safety? This is a RED HERRING. The real issue is one of political violence.. it seems increasingly likely that patriots will have to go to war to remove their traitorous oppressors. > But then no one > could produce evidence that he had bought automatic weapons. Then the > government said that he had stockpiled an arsenal. Every person in that > compound, children included, has the Constitutional right to own as many > legal firearms as they want. Every sale of firearms to the Davidians was > legal. So then, how many would constitute an arsenal? Would not the > collected guns of all the members of the NRA consitute an arsenal assembled > by a non-militia organization? Well, the government countered this with an > allegation that the Davidians bought parts to convert arms to semi-automatic > weapons. These parts are routinely sold in gun mailorder catalogs. They > were bought on the open legal market. Also reported: the Davidians had about half the firearms per capita of Texas in general. > Get the drift? I cannot see one illegal thing that the Davidians did > which would convince a rational Justice Dept to order a full on assault on > people who had committed no crime and who generally were known in Waco as > peaceful people. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of these End Days > Christians, but I'm a patriotic American and I believe anyone has the right > to believe anything they want to believe and has the right of assembly to > profess those beliefs and the right to do so openly. > I read a post of Koresh's last communications and his supposed > revelations of the seventh seal. I can be as mystically religious as the > next person, but David's revelation was.....well, it was kinda nutty > sounding. I take my revelations seriously, and this sounded like a guy > making it up---and not very well---as he went along. OK, I figured David > Koresh for a nutty kind of guy, and I wasn't surprised. But that's not a > crime. The Reverend Billy Graham, in his early tent revival days, predicted > the end of the world a number of times, setting dates and the whole thing. > Pretty nutty. Good for him and his bank account he wasn't correct, huh? > But Koresh's nuttiness was then cited as a reason for the assault. But > the government could have arrested him any number of times in Waco as he > regularly went to town to buy auto parts, and from what I gather was known as > a real nice guy. So, I'm baffled. Why was this guy considered a threat? > If, as so many are now asserting, that this was a conspiracy, why were the > Branch Davidians chosen? Because they were so small, and they sound so nutty that mainstream America won't give a toiletful about them. > The Catholic Church, by it's own figures, estimates > that maybe thousands of children have been molested by its priests, crimes > that were known and not reported by the hierarchy. Why does the government > not attack the Catholic Church? They certainly have legal grounds. Why the > Davidians? > And then I think....maybe the seventh seal was revealed, > afterall. The sound of slaughtered rabbits? The incineration of innocent > children? Sounds Biblical to me. > > I'd be interested in hearing theories. Please post your replies to the > alt.conspiracy, as my mail server is limited in capacity. Here are the Reasons for the Raid, IMO: 1. The BATF wanted respect among other National Police Forces. During the '80's, _many_ such groups used military tactics to fight the "War on Drugs," and in return got BILLIONS of $$$, high-tech toys, and the undeserved respect of the Dupes of America. BATF didn't seem "professional" without a successful, Gestapo-style raid. (This is much like the urban legend of gang initiates killing for respect) 2. The government (being in partnership with all mainstream faiths to keep people asleep) is concerned about the development of new, unpredictable cults. Such churches threaten to swell in numbers as we approach the milennium, and as more people figure out that our government, "religions," and "life"styles suck. The Davidians seemed like a good place to start. 3. The simple assertion of governmental power, for its own sake. 4. ??? (to president@whitehouse.gov: any ideas?) Rev. Dr VL From: ad626@yfn.ysu.edu (Steve Crocker) Subject: Re: Why the Branch Davidians? Date: 25 Oct 1993 04:24:54 GMT It is a little known but mildly interesting fact that some of the preliminary moves against the BD's were coordinated online. In Marc Breault's book he states that he and (David?) Jewell, who was trying to get his daughter away from the BD's co-ordinated their planning extensively via Compuserve. Can you say "The dark side of the Force"? -Steve From: cotera@woods.ulowell.edu Subject: Re: Why the Branch Davidians? Date: 27 Oct 93 14:57:55 -0500 In article <2ab88v$gl5@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes: > Add to > this the fact that it was budget appropriations time in Washington, > D.C. and the BATF was looking for a good photo-op. Did you know that the operational name given to the raid was Operation Showtime? Makes you kinda wonder... --Ray Cote From eab@msc.edu Fri Oct 29 20:12:13 1993 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 20:07:05 -0500 From: eab@msc.edu (Edward Bertsch) To: eab@msc.edu, alk@msc.edu Subject: WACO MASSACRE VIDEO - talk.politics.guns #75492 In article , mlee@esd.dl.nec.com (Michael Lee) writes: |> Between February and June 1993, the mid-morning talk show on KGBS, |> 1190 AM (Dallas, Texas) was hosted by Ron Engelman. |> |> Ron's show was wide-ranging in scope. But, most of his callers wanted to |> talk about the BATF raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. |> |> For months, his show covered more about Waco than all the other talk shows |> in Dallas put together. |> |> The Libertarian Party invited Ron Engelman to speak about the WACO MASSACRE |> to a packed house of 250 people in Richardson (just north of Dallas). |> |> Ron's prepared remarks took 30-45 minutes and then he answered questions |> about Waco for 1 hour. He answered a couple of questions about Ruby Creek, |> Idaho, also. |> |> The entire event was video taped, edited, and duplicated PROFESSIONALLY. |> Including announcements, the tape is 1 hour and 45 minutes. |> |> Within a week after this public speech about the WACO MASSACRE, Ron was told |> to move his mid-morning show to 6 am, take a co-host, and make the show |> "light and fluffy". Ron Engelman refused and resigned. |> |> Please send 15.00 per tape to: |> |> LIBERTARIAN PARTY OF DALLAS COUNTY |> P.O. BOX 831764 |> RICHARDSON, TEXAS 75083-1764 |> |> Your tape will be sent by mail, postage paid. |> (If outside the USA, add 2.00 postage.) -- Edward A. Bertsch (eab@msc.edu) Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc. Operations/User Services 1200 Washington Ave.So./Mpls MN 55415 +1 (612) 645-0168 voice mail [DISCLAIMER: MY OPINIONS; NOT MSCI'S] "An armed society is a polite society" -Robert A. Heinlein From msc.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!cmort Fri Oct 29 20:26:25 1993 Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns Path: msc.edu!umn.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!cmort From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton) Subject: Re: Cult Raid Leader Sent To El Paso Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 14:43:15 GMT Message-ID: References: Lines: 34 As quoted from by ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy): > > From the Associated Press via the El Paso Times, 27 Oct 1993, > reprinted without permission. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ted Royster, head of the Dallas office of the Bureau of Alcohol, > Tobacco and Firearms is being reassigned to El Paso, Texas. That's right, shuffle the garbage around rather than dump it. > Officials said he is being transferred because of inconsistent > statements he made about his involvement in the Feb. 28 raid. > > Royster will be moved to El Paso to direct Project Alliance, a > multi-agency drug task force operating along the Mexican border, > said Francesca Perot, spokesman for the BATF Houston office. > Kind of gives you an idea of the priority the new administration is giving to the "war on drugs". :) "You're an incompetant and a liar, so we're putting you in the war on drugs!" Come to think of it, what's he got to do with drugs... other than acting like he uses them.... :) -- =================================================================== How far Livesy, How Far? ===================================================================

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