THE CRUCIBLE +lt;+lt;UFONET I+gt;+gt; 416-244-9999 *HST* - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - 60 Megs The

---
Master Index Current Directory Index Go to SkepticTank Go to Human Rights activist Keith Henson Go to Scientology cult

Skeptic Tank!

========================================================================= THE CRUCIBLE <> 416-244-9999 *HST* - 24Hrs - 12/24/96 - 60 Megs ========================================================================= The following file contains clarification and correction of a number of claims attributed to Tracy Torme by Larry Fenwick within the Fenwick.txt interview transcript of Nov.6/88. Tracy Torme's version comes from a taped conversation I had with him on Dec.4/88 In addition to Torme's reaction, I also have Larry Fenwick's response to this. Lastly, Tracy also has kindly offered to give his views on the Gulf Breeze series of UFO sightings, and of his appraisal of "Mr. Ed". The following is a series of selected statements made by Tracy Torme, who gave me permission to use "any, or part of this" so as to reproduce in electronic form for distribution on ParaNet. "Although there are grains of truth...small grains of truth, in some of what Larry said, a great majority of it is inaccurate and highly exaggerated. Just for the record, some of the positions that he has me taking are positions that I absolutely do not believe...I never did, and I still don't. When I talked to Larry about this after having read the transcript, Larry was pretty apologetic, and said, well, he realizes he has a faulty memory and he tends to exagerate. Thats his quote. And that's how I found the whole thing on me. For the record, the following things are the way that I feel: (1) I do not have any inside information on Project Aquarius. (2) I have strong doubts that Project Aquarius even exists as interpreted by Larry Fenwick. (3) I do not believe in underground alien bases. Although I keep open the possibility that such things exist, I personally would tend to disbelieve that. And never said anything like that. (4) The "religion" comments were taken out of context. And most of what was said were not my words. When I was pressed to reveal anything I might know about Bill Moore's situation, I basically refused. Then Larry and Harry Tokarz etc., and Joe Muskat started asking me, well, if the stuff that Bill is onto is true, then what would it affect? And they started running through a number of things, and one of the them that I agreed could be affected, would be religion. But I never said it would be affected. And I never NEVER said anything about 20 million suicides. That is something that someone from CUFORN said, and Larry is getting them mistaken." "As far as me knowing everything that Bill Moore knows, that is ridiculous...back in 1982 or today." "I'm often amused with people who decide that I'm some kind of agent who knows all that Moore knows, and works so closely to Moore. Because the reality is that I know only slightly more than what most people do. For instance, John Lear came out and said I was an agent of disinformation for Bill Moore. And when I asked John why he said that, he said, well you seem to agree with him alot. That's the kind of reasoning that leads to these nonsensical claims." [Regarding the New York Meeting with...here are some of Torme's remarks] "Larry Fenwick used to tell me that he saw suspicious people in the lobby of my hotel who's eyes were following me wherever I went. So he started to suspect that I was being surveilled. And again, I don't think there is anything to that either." "I don't specifically remember anything about saying "don't take notes", but I'm not denying I said that, because most likely what the context of it was...they [the CUFORN guys] started asking alot of questions again...and they may have gotten a tape recorder out or something, and I may have discouraged them and said, "look guys I'll just talk to you off the record, but I don't want this to become like an interview, where I'll have to watch my words. Thats as much as there is to that." "Basically, my last statement would be that this is a small but important example how rumour mongering, exaggeration, excitability, melodrama, etc....enter into the simplest of stories, and by the time they make their rounds of the UFO grapevine, they are blown all out of proportion." [In response to my query about what percentage of Moore's info Tracy knows..] I think I still know some things that Bill Moore knows that only a few people know. I'm sure there are some things that I still know that are not known to the general public. I wouldn't say [they are] anything earth-shattering, nothing that anyone wouldn't imagine." "In my viewpoint, if the UFO community knows 15% of what Bill Moore knows, then maybe I know 25%." "I don't know where MJ-12 hangs out, where they play golf, and all that kinda stuff. I don't know that stuff. If anyone thinks that I do, then more power to them, but its not true. So thats the situation. " [Regarding the above...in conversations with Larry Fenwick, he has agreed tha t his recollection of what transpired during certain events (all of which did occur as Fenwick mentioned) was indeed "faulty", and as they took place some 6-8 years ago, Fenwick blames the passage of time for this error on his part. ] [One mistake made while transcribing, was my attributing Torme with working at CTV instead of at SCTV. - other than that, except for a few typographical errors, the text is an accurate portrayal of the Fenwick.txt transcript.] [The following are Tracy Torme's views on the Gulf Breeze UFO sightings, whose views I solicited due to Tracy's own work with, and meetings, with many of the individuals involved...including with "Mr.Ed" and his family. As you may know, Tracy's work on the TV special "UFO-Coverup LIVE" was primarily on the Gulf Breeze segment, and as such he is quite familiar with it.] "Well, I started as a skeptic, and became a definite believer. I keep hearing from skeptics that new information, or certain things that have come out, have blown the case out of the water. But everytime I look into that so-called "new information", there's nothing there that damages the case at all, really. So, I'm still keeping the door open that its an incredibly elaborate hoax...because I don't think that's an impossibility. But I'm 98% convinced that something very unusual really was flying around down there. That much, I'm pretty convinced off." "So I guess you and Jim [Speiser] would differ on that then... cause I know that he's come out and called it a hoax." "Jim Speiser has?" "Well, ParaNet's current classification on it is that it is a hoax." "Is that right?" "Yes. I thought that it was maybe a little premature." "I'm surprised to hear that. There's so much to the case, that someday I would love to be part of a real, bigger discussion about it. I've been down there now I think four times. And I've been involved with all the principals directly down there in Gulf Breeze. If its a fake, they sure got me fooled, I can tell you that much. And I'm not saying that that's impossible, but it would be a real surprise." "One thing I will say about it is that, its an interesting case in that most cases like it, like the Meier case...and others, the more you find out about them, the less you believe in them. What I've found with Gulf Breeze is, that the more you stay at a distance from it, the easier it is to say that its not real. Because the photos look fake, and its the type of case that has never happenend really legitimately before. So its easy to just base it on the superficial ideal like that, and say okay its not real. And I think to a certain extent, Richard Haines and Richard Hall, and other people that are good people in the field...when I talk about it to them, that's pretty much where they stood. But I really found out that I didn't feel like they knew as much about it as they should, in order to make that decision [against GB being legit]. The interesting thing about Gulf Breeze is the more you learn about it and the more you get to know who "Mr. Ed" really is, and who some of the other witnesses are, and the details of what they saw, I think you have to come away from it making the same judgement that Hopkins made and that Maccabee has made and that I have made, along with most other people, and that is that it is a real series of incidents. I've spent quite a bit of time with "Mr. Ed" I've gone to all the major sites where with him where he had incidents...and I've relived them with him [through Ed's re-telling]. I've met his family, his kids, his wife and some of his neighbors and friends." "I think the guy has a lot of integrity, and I think he's suffering because of this, instead of profiting because of it." I think its a real case, that's my feeling on it." [Lastly, a closing remark about Tracy Torme's view of Larry Fenwick...] "Larry Fenwick really means well. And he is not dishonest. He's a nice guy, and he's earnest, and he means well...but like he himself said, he gets things mixed up. Unfortunately, thats what happened this time." [ -- End of File -- ] there. "So I guess you and Jim [Speiser] would differ on that then... cause I know that he's come out and called it a hoax." "Jim Speiser has?" "Well, ParaNet's current classification on it is that it is a hoax."

---

E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank