Brd -+gt;UFO Debate Forum Numb -+gt;125 of 133 Sub -+gt;Re: +quot;Ducks + Saucers + Sphere

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n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->125 of 133 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres" To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) From ->DON MASON (#145) Date ->09/14/88 05:31:08 PM Hey Mike, I didn`t say that I was overwhelmed, it just appeared that maybe you thought that you could overwhelm some of the people. I`m not shy , if I don`t know of a certain world it doesn`t bother me to look it up. At the same time I do know that some people do have complex`s about their make up and will do what they can to divert others away, to mask what they are lacking. Might I add that you do a good job on your word processor, ok!!!!!!! [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #125 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->126 of 133 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres" To ->DON F ECKER (#17) From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) Date ->09/14/88 10:36:00 PM O, my Antonio, I do know of these That therefore only are reputed wise For saying nothing; when, I am very sure, If they should speak, would almost damn those ears Which, hearing them, would call their brothers fools. --Shakespeare, MERCHANT OF VENICE,I.i.95-99. It happened as the Autumn evening set cool foot into the settling dust of Summer. In reaching for a flower, Jacob was stung by a bee. His sobs soaked my dress and he shivered in my arms as the warmth of his finger made a puddle of the ice held against it. The sobs quieted, the shivering stopped as the evening folded around us but Jacob's childhood was gone, dashed off into the faded light of Summer's end. --Michael K. Graham, "A Flick of Feathered Scale [Ch 7, pg. 17]" Deception is assumed, when fanciful claims are made, because the burden of proof is upon those who make them. But there are those who shall always believe, cling with tenacity to the flickering light at Summer's end. Because they believe, they want others to believe, imputing the skeptic with heresy. Their cries languish, their visions evanesce. The flowering of faith withers in their passing, leaving the cold root of reason to sprout anew. 400 years ago, a little girl named Abigail Williams cried, "witch!" Doctors and lawyers, tailors and soldiers believed and were afraid. A mephitic reek of fear came to the town and before a breeze of reason could clear it, hundreds were dead, slain in the most inhumane ways imaginable. There seems unavailable a way to inculculate the lesson demonstrated by that and other dark ages of human history. A stochastic outbreak of like sightings and people fall their mental knees. They're a miasma, spreading disease in geometric progression from themselves, convincing others with stories of inimical aliens, breeding unwarranted fear. The Holocost is engraved in the terminated genealogical tree of thousands of families. It is burned into the earth by mass graves that are still being found. Hundreds of thousands of feet of film, not imbued with imaginative life by a belief that it must be 'hidden somewhere.' are available to anyone with the stomach to watch. They are clear and evident and come from a time that had little ability to alter their testimony, you can date the celluloid. There is no comparison. Within the scope of this argument, I suggest that hysteria is possible on the scale implied, over the area implied, in the time implied. There is always something going on. The rajneesh eats tonight as do you.B Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->127 of 133 Sub ->Re: Evolving life To ->JUSTIN BOGGS (#128) From ->JIM SPEISER (#56) Date ->09/15/88 07:46:10 PM Justin: Really don't have time to get into this with you, but your figures don't tell the whole story. (Assuming their correct in the first place). Since the beginning of time, there may have been 10 to the 64 different per- mutations occuring, making the chances against such proteins NOT evolving approximately 10 to 1. I don't stand behind my figures, but I'd be willing to bet they are conservative. Its like saying that the chances against four people playing bridge being dealt hands that consisted of A-K in each suit. The odds against something like that occuring are something like a quadrillion to one -- ON ANY ONE HAND. But given all the bridge hands that have been played since the game was invented, its bound to occur some time -- as it once did, in champ- ionship play. Jim [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #127 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->128 of 133 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres" To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) From ->DON F ECKER (#17) Date ->09/15/88 10:56:42 PM Words learned by rote a parrot may rehearse, But talking is not always to converse; Not more distinct from harmony divine, The constant creaking of a country sign. William Cowper Impossible is a word only to be found in the dictionary of fools. Napoleon Yes Michael, I know that you suggest that the events in the Hudson Valley may be hysteria. witnesses that are employed to guard nuclear power stations, police officers that guard the community, military personal that are responsible for the welfare of the nation, airline pilots, school teachers, scientists accountants, attorneys, reporters, all these people suffering mass hysteria over a 4 year period. How silly of me, now I wish I had studied psychology, talk about a ready made client group, makes my wallet tremble just to think about it. I could afford that 1400 LT, buy a new stereo, get that washer for my wife, take those flying lessons, get Michael a new updated Websters......................N81N [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #128 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->129 of 133 Sub ->UFOs and Straw Men To ->Michael Graham From ->JIM SPEISER (#56) Date ->09/16/88 01:26:58 AM Hellooooooooo Boise..... Mr. Graham, I've been reading with great interest your posts in the UFO debate section here. You seem to be a master debater -- verbally speaking. Yet for all your elocutionary aplomb, you seem to be missing a few vital points. For example, you state that the "appearance of authenticity is insufficient." Insufficient for what? For proof? Certainly. To qualify as bearing discussion and inquiry? Hardly. Why do you and others insist on painting ufology into the corner of requiring absolute, undeniable proof before it can be taken seriously? Surely no one here is claiming to have proof that "UFOs are aliens and the government knows it." All we are saying is that, A) Anomalous data exists in the form of various reports which exhibit curious consistency, B) said data SUGGESTS intelligent control and/or government knowledge of the extraordinary nature of the phenomenon, C) insufficient prosaic explanations have been advanced to bring the data in line with the current scientific paradigm, D) the ET Hypothesis is sufficiently wondrous and substantial in its potential benefits to merit serious consideration; E) insufficient theoretical arguments have been advanced against said hypothesis. That's it. We do NOT say, "AND THEREFORE ITS ALIENS," as you repeatedly accuse Phil Imbrogno (and by extension, us) of saying. We do say, "AND THEREFORE, STOP LAUGHING AND HELP US FIND OUT WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!" None of this is to be construed as an entreatise to cease your skeptical input. On the contrary, ParaNet will not survive without such input, for that is our raison d'etre. But we do ask that such input be offered in an even-handed manner, that is, without the use of straw-man arguments such as your "and therefore its aliens," or your implication that we are claiming to have proved our case. Instead of bemoaning the proof we don't have, try addressing the data we do. Jim Speiser Alpha [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #129 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->130 of 133 Sub ->Re: UFOs and Straw Men To ->JIM SPEISER (#56) From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) Date ->09/16/88 09:41:43 PM Mr. Speiser, The comments made, do not necessarily reflect my own beliefs at all. Don made a very good point in that some of the cases contain so much circumstantial evidence and corroborating testimony, were they a court case they might positively sway the jury; I shall ever and always take the opposite side, for without it there is, of course, no debate. But.... The issue itself is of such an odd nature, such a potentially threatening one, so fantastic and unbelievable that the paracletes of UFO's must dig themselves out of a hole before they may start at the origin of the argument. Thus, rather than sit idle at the keyboard, watching the phosphor float by, I choose to gain knowledge by taking the opposite side of an argument with a gentleman I have really come to like. And.... You will notice that I have succeeded. Although Don has a tendency towards tautology, and disdains response to difficult issues, resting instead on old, reliable arguments that he has heard from somewhere else, although he wont entertain certain ideas at all, he has given me grist for my mill. Maybe I've done the same for him. Therefore.... I shall continue to address the data in the way that I feel has already shown itself to work in this context, mocking when I receive sneers, comforting when I sense irritation, discussing facts when I see facts, and so on. My purpose is not to discourage or demoralize, not even to laugh [although some of Don's quote-throwing has floored me!] but to continue the debate. By the way.... In 1978, I had an encounter of my own, passing over the La Posa plain by car. The road I was on was posted the full length with signs instructing vehicles to remain on it. On either side were military testing sights. I don't suggest extraterrestrial origin either, but I've seen what kind of G's a human may take and yet survive; this wasn't within the parameters. So that when I suggest various explanations, I must include within the scope of the argument [remember the argument *is* the field of play, nothing from inside holds relevance outside.] myself. However.... My objection to Night Siege remains, and if you are an extension, so be it. The damn thin' is packaged like a cheap whore, wrapped in sensationalism and depending on the ready preconceptions of the public: OVER 5000 SIGHTINGS IN THE LAST YEAR -- NIGHT SIEGE, The Hudson Valley UFO [in the same blown lettering as Night Siege] Sightings. On the back: Five thousand responsible people claim to have seen SOMETHING...WHAT IS GOING ON???? Of course, the usual filler hype included between the headlines. This is the sort of packaging that discredits the book even before it is picked up. Try a fanciful approach, like COMMUNION, and more of the people you feel should be reached shall be. All it takes is a little sub title, 'based on a true story,' and a list of 'additional reading' in the back. Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->131 of 133 Sub ->Re: UFOs and Straw Men To ->JIM SPEISER (#56) From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) Date ->09/16/88 09:43:39 PM J.S. -- "All we are saying is that, A) Anomalous data exists in the form of various reports which exhibit curious consistency, B) said data SUGGESTS intelligent control and/or government knowledge of the extraordinary nature of the phenomenon, C) insufficient prosaic explanations have been advanced to bring the data in line with the current scientific paradigm, D) the ET Hypothesis is sufficiently wondrous and substantial in its potential benefits to merit serious consideration; E) insufficient theoretical arguments have been advanced against said hypothesis. That's it." MG XII -- A. TRUE] Yes the data exists, such that some real event is acting as anlage. Whether the event is singular of plural is questionable, given other instances of a like profile which resolved themselves into a single incident after close examination, with more than verbal verification, or were observed to do so years later through examination of independent writings. B. FALSE] Intelligent control has been ascribed by humans to confusing processes [weather, volcanos, electricity and magnetism] for as long as that little section of their brain has been developed. They also as a rule give human personalities to inanimate objects, and put their own thoughts into the heads of animals. The reason it is taken as false is because it is not at all clear whether the object is the source of the conclusion or the conclusion the source of the object. The observational data have no relevance to the assumption of governmental knowledge. C. FALSE] Scientific explanation has been advanced on all the empirical data presented. No scientific explanation beyond hypothesis may be advanced upon witness testimony, as witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and unduplicable. Give science a piece of metal to analyze, or a language to decipher or even recorded magnetic data. They'll change their tune. D. FALSE] The ET Hypothesis bases itself first on [B.] which is false. It is, in fact, a wonderful idea. The potential benefit from ET civilizations is enormous. Equally enormous are the potential dangers, even if EBE's mean well. One major technological boon might plunge the society into chaos. The sociological implications are such that we would be more likely to be absorbed into their society, than they into ours. Remember the American Indian. E. FALSE] That the explanations haven't sat well with the UFOoligists is true, but they're at least as valid as the counter hypotheses, and based on about as much evidence.K [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #131 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->132 of 133 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres" To ->DON F ECKER (#17) From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) Date ->09/16/88 09:46:34 PM What ardently I wished, I long believed, And, disappointed still, was still deceived. By expectation everyday beguiled, Dupe of to-morrow even from a child. --Cowper On the receipt of my mother's Picture, lines 38-41. Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of Fools. -- Napoleon Bonaparte Impossible that it could be a form of hysteria? Don, I'm disappointed in you. Even after I gave you such a florid example, to receive this scathing objurgation is more than a gentleman may bear. Tsk, Tsk, then...I'LL weaken the Salem solution for you: You touched upon the merest edge of an idea when you mentioned 'religious fanatics....[with] no sense of humor.' Salem and outlying settlements were essentially theocracies. Everywhere people turned, every day, they were being told of demons and witches dancing in the forest with the Black Man. Forests were a source of terrible danger to the colonists, and much evil was imagined in their shadowed depths. Darkness which surrounded the colony on almost every side. There was no childhood for the children, they were expected to behave as adults. There was no enjoyment for the adults, beyond what they could find between the pages of the Bible, as other books were outside the bible and therefore evil, while pictures and music that did not praise the Lord, thereby blasphemed. Salem was a dry, pressured field of straw, waiting to go up. If not the witch hunts, then something else would have set the field alight. This is hardly the case for the scattered incidents of Night Siege. Feel better? O.K., now I'll turn about and reply to that weakening in the following example: Some years ago, in a textile factory a woman was startled by a June Bug. Coincidentally, a rash appeared, the cause of which latter turned out to be at the woman's dwelling. But the rash really broke through the afternoon after the woman had fainted, and she became afraid and her body reacted to the stress, making her ill. Word got around of the 'deadly june bugs,' and soon people were developing rashes that had no origin other than their own minds, yet were evident on their arms, faces, legs and back after an encounter with one of the bugs. These were rational people [no pun intended], yet the rashes were quite real, caused entirely by their own imagination. The incident lasted a total of seven months, after which the only solution was to spray the place and rid it of the harmless beetles. Don, I've hypnotized people and, out of mere curiosity, told them that a pencil they were holding was becoming red-hot, yet that they would not find themselves able to let go. Two of the five I've done this to developed water blisters, just as if they'd held a real hot piece of metal between thumb and forefinger. My point is that senses are unreliable, no matter how many different sets corroborate witnessed events. Your body is a mechanism that needs only the proper fiddling of knobs to elicit any response desired, within its capability. Give me an electrode, I'll let you relive a portion of your childhood. Give me another, I'll make you afraid of your own shadow. Give me your mind, and I shall make your world go away. K [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #132 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#n Brd ->UFO Debate Forum Numb ->133 of 133 Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres" To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107) From ->DON F ECKER (#17) Date ->09/16/88 11:43:38 PM "Friendship's the privilege Of private men, for wretched greatness knows No blessing so substantial." Tate "Man is the only creature endowed with the power of laughter; is he not the only one that deserves to be laughed at?" Greville Michael, I must say I am very DISAPPOINTED in your last response. I thought for sure, you would have caught me with tongue firmly in cheek concerning Salem. The gibe about Salems humor to be specific. I didn't miss the point about Salem, I merely dismissed it. Several messages ago, you gave yourself away, when you mentioned your knowledge concerning the incident in Roswell. I too have greatly enjoyed this debate, However; Tsk Tsk, I take you to task concerning your remark to J. Speiser concerning my reluctance to debate difficult issues. Not true Mon Ami. (Did I get that right?) Imagine accusing ME of practicing Tautology! And, besides, if the OLD RELIABLE ARGUMENTS work, well, what could I possibly say? Now, what ideas do you accuse me of NOT entertaining? Michael, I consider myself to be one of the MOST open minded people I know, and if anyone disagrees, well then, damnit, let's burn his damn hut down!!!!!!! OOOOPS, sorry, got carried away. Oh, yes, I almost forgot. Forget it if you think you are going to get close to me with an electrode, and if I am not mistaken, my ex. stated on several occasions that I had no mind! Of course, I debated that with her, and after all, she did sign the house over to me with no money changing hands. ( And to think she accused me of being a spendthrift.) But, to get back to the debate, I submit to you, Michael, there is a large difference between a group of people imagining a rash from a beetle, and an object described by thousands as being several hundred feet in length. You mentioned a factory town, which I must then assume that the educational level must have been low, possibly ridden with superstition, and easily influenced. Quite a difference from college graduates holding responsible positions, school teachers, police, military officers, and the like. I further submit that quite simply, IT WON"T WASH BUCKWHEAT.81N [ R)eread Q)uit] [ Enter=Next ] [ M)ail/Reply to Current Message ] [B16 #133 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#demons and witches dancing in the forest with the Black Man. Forests were a source of terrible danger to the colonists, and much evil was imagined in their shadowed depths. Darkness which surrounded the colony on almost every side. There was no childhood for the children, they were expected to behave as adults. There was no enjoyment for the adults, beyond what they could find between the pages of the Bible, as other books were outside the bible and therefore evil, while pictures and music that did not praise the Lord, thereby blasphemed. Salem was a dry, pressured field of straw, waiting to go up. If not the witch hunts, then something else would have set the field alight. This is hardly the case for the scattered incidents of Night Siege. Feel better? O.K., now I'll turn about and reply to that weakening in the following example: Some years ago, in a textile

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