[The following is a transcript of the Sunday, November 13, 1988 Online CompuServe conferen

Master Index Current Directory Index Go to SkepticTank Go to Human Rights activist Keith Henson Go to Scientology cult

Skeptic Tank!

[The following is a transcript of the Sunday, November 13, 1988 Online CompuServe conference with "Clear Intent" author, Barry Greenwood.] 8:12:33 PM EST Sunday, November 13, 1988 User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 31 70511,17 CRZ 5 Mike R. 33 72220,2360 KOP 5 Thrasher 40 76012,3361 MRT 5 Ted 67 76701,75 BMD SIG 75 72411,2473 LTR 5 Bill M. 76 76004,2063 ACM 5 mike 79 76336,72 MIP 5 STEVE 84 73127,3066 SCS 5 Cephus 95 73240,52 HAR 5 Al 96 72627,2627 ALL 5 harry 101 71450,3504 ANN 5 Bert 105 75400,11 QFM 5 Tony I. 110 71605,2013 MIA 5 Gerry 121 76060,2404 DEQ 5 Mark 140 75340,2642 TSA 5 Barry G. 143 76703,266 DUK 5 G-WIZ 146 74270,3360 BOI 5 DON 160 73127,3066 SCS 5 Cephus (Ted) Tonight's guest is Barry Greenwood author of one of the most respected books in UFOlogy, "Clear Intent". Barry do you have any opening comments? ga (5,Barry G.) Happy to be on the air with you all. I know my stand on MJ-12 has caused some controversy, but am open to any questions about that, or about anything covered by CAUS.... (Jim S.) Also want to mention that besides Barry, Ronald Story is here with us, author of "The Encyclopedia of UFOs." GA (5,DON) ?? (5,Bert) ? (5,Gerry) ? (Ted) ! (Ted) Don is up first. GA DON (5,DON) First Barry, welcome, it is really nice to see such a respected researcher here tonight. Since March I have been researching a paper and I have used Clear Intent a great deal I have wanted to ask a ? concerning the "Cuban Jet Incident" I have come across several incidents where hostility has been displayed in reference to Military encounters do you have additional info on this incident, or any further incidents involving military encounters? (5,Barry G.) No additional info on that incident we have filed FOIA requests on it, but we need to have more specific info for FOIA than we have at present regarding hostility: I interpret these incidents more as accidental encounters rather than deliberate attacks on our aircraft at least for those that we have sufficient documentation. GA (5,Bert) Barry, it seems pretty well accepted that there is a significant amount of disinformation being disseminated by the government to the public, the ufo community, and no doubt the press. How do you sort thru all this in your foia documents and decide what may be real and what is phony? Also, one specific question: what can you tell us about Aquarius? GA (5,Barry G.) CAUS has a policy by which we require that any government-oriented information we receive must come from certifiable official sources or legitimate, established archives in institutions. This is the only way we can be sure that the documentation or stories are on the level. We investigate rumors, and other information from undocumented sources, but we don't give it nearly the same weight as the authenticated material. Aquarius: Considering that its linked to MJ-12, and that CAUS has taken a skeptical stance on the MJ-12 claims, we regard Aquarius as an unauthenticated claim until we receive legitimate documentation to show that it exists. GA (5,DON) ?? (5,Bert) follow! (5,Bert) But, Barry, could foia documents come from "authentic" disinformation sources? GA (5,Mark) ?? (5,Barry G.) Yes, they could, but a single document by itself isn't necessarily proof of a claim. We would prefer that there is more than one source for any story we receive. Its all a matter of how much credible material exists before we endorse a claim. As I said before, we take seriously and examine all stories and arrive at conclusions based on how well substantiated the claims are. GA (Ted) Gerry is next and then Ted [me] ga Gerry (5,Gerry) Barry, could you sketch for us your position on the idea that something like MJ-12 exists even though the mj12 documents themselves may be disinformation? ga (5,Barry G.) Of course I think there were extensive studies by the govt. on UFOs over the years. I don't think this problem could have been approached in any way other than a very organized and a very covert manner. If you read CLEAR INTENT, you will see that vast numbers of documents still remain to be released. Some of that material could refer to an MJ 12-Type group. Until we see that information, we regard MJ-12 by that name as unsubstantiated. I don't rule out other possibilities, though. GA (Ted) Ted is next! Barry, Dale Wedge claimed recently on our message board that you, Jim Speiser, and Marge C. had all resigned because you disagreed with the MUFON handling of Gulf Breezes. Can you all comment? (5,Barry G.) My resignation from MUFON (this is Barry speaking) had nothing to do with Gulf Breeze. It occurred over a year ago, and had much to do with my time and disagreements with statements being made by MUFON spokespeople on various aspects of current UFO events. I do have problems with Gulf Breeze, but since I'm not an investigator of those events, it amounts to only an opinion, based on what I've seen published by both pro and con. (Marge C) My resignation was based on unfounded conclusions and statements made by MUFON investigators regarding Gulf Breeze. I also have problems with the investigation. (Jim S.) My resignation was based on many events within MUFON, of which Gulf Breeze was only the most visible part. That's all I'll say at this point. GA (5,DON) Barry, while conducting my research I found an excellent research book titled "Somebody Else is On the Moon" by author George H. Leonard. Leonard did much research with various NASA Scientists, and came across some very startling NASA Photos. During your research with Fawcett, have you had occasion to connect with any NASA personnel, and if so, what have you found out concerning alleged occupation of the Moon? And a follow up. ga (5,Barry G.) Boy, any pro-UFO people out there are really going to hate me for this. No, I don't endorse the conclusions of George Leonard or anyone else promoting alien bases or mining colonies on the moon. We have file FOIA requests on this subject with NASA and other government agencies, and have found absolutely nothing to support these claims. We have examined copies of the photos which have been published in these books, and find them generally fuzzy and unconvincing as evidence of intelligence. GA (5,Bert) ? (5,Cephus) d (5,DON) OK, Barry, I have just picked this book up this last week however I wrote a paper that Ted posted here several months ago that came from a former Intelligence officer that hinted at this very subject. How does one explain the various anomalies that have been observed on the Lunar surface, and what other possible events could cause them? One other quick ?, has any of your research involved alleged abduction cases, and what do you make from this aspect of the enigma? (5,Barry G.) Yes, there are legitimate scientific anomalies which have been detected on the moon and other planets but that's exactly what they are: unexplained anomalies. We're not prepared to go the several steps further to the conclusion that these are alien artifacts. If anyone has a clear photographs of any anomalies which can be conclusively linked to aliens, we would be very happy to examine the material and endorse it if warranted. Abductions: we have not run across any material on government investigations of abductions, or even much reference to the subject. We have received correspondence from some military people reporting abductions to CAUS. We turned the material over to Budd Hopkins or other abduction researchers to sift the material, and if something is revealed, that we can follow up through FOIA, we will do it. But we don't have a whole lot of action in this area. GA (Ted) Barry only has a limited amount of time with us tonight so try to keep your ? short. He can stay until a little after the hour. (5,Cephus) ??? (5,harry) ?? (5,Mark) Thank you, Ted Barry, I am curious to know what has become of Peter Gersten...and, what your opinions are of the Roswell crash which has spurred the controversy over MJ-12.ga (5,Barry G.) Peter Gersten is still director of CAUS, and still active with us, although at a reduced level from the past due to time commitments with his career and other pursuits in the UFO field, specifically his involvement with the Westchester Boomerang UFOs. He still advises us on legal matters I'm still up in the air on the Roswell Incident. Certainly, something did crash there. It may have been a "flying saucer", but I wasn't there, I can never say for sure what it was. I disconnect it from the MJ-12 controversy because I think there is a considerable amount of witness testimony which must be considered in the whole picture of the Roswell Incident. It may be a UFO, we'll see. GA (Ted) Here is the order - Bert, Cephus, Gerry and Ted [if we have time] ga (5,Bert) getting back to Don's question regarding the moon in Tim Good's book Above Top Secret on page 380, the following brief quote is made. It's a communication between NASA and Apollo 11 Mission control: what's there? you wouldn't believe It! I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there...lined up on the far side of the crater edge...they're on the moon watching us...." It is said that NASA deleted this from the transcripts released to the public. But others, including Russian listeners as well as Maurice Chatelain confirm that it was a real exchange and that NASA removed it from record. What do you think of this? And what do you think of Above Top Secret in general? GA (5,Barry G.) This is another one of those tales which I'm constantly having to explain because the original sources are not reliable. I don't know where this information originally came from, but I've never seen any government documentation even hinting at this exchange. I would ask where did Tim Goode get his information, as well as Maurice Chatelain. Do they have NASA transcripts verifying this? Also, I find it amazing that we would get information on our Apollo missions from the Soviets. The Apollo 11 mission was one of the most recorded space missions in history why didn't anyone else catch this? Especially since the broadcasts were occurring in real-time. GA (5,Cephus) Out here on the west coast we've heard that our astronomers are tracking unidentified Flying Objects but the government is not allowing any of this info to be released to the public. The FOX network recently broadcasted a very well done documentary on this what do you think of this Barry? ga (5,Barry G.) Not familiar with the "west coast" stories you've heard so I really can;t comment on it. Regarding the Fox network show you referred to, I assume you mean the two hour "UFO Cover-up Live" Show...I felt the show was a 50-50 proposition I enjoyed the first hour, the second hour trailed off into questionable areas on which I've already comment (5,Barry G.) I completely support serious investigations into all areas of UFO research. Our job is to be sure that the information we develop is the best possible information, the type that will stand up to rigorous scrutiny. If we do not do this, all our efforts to convince the scientific community, the government, and the public will fail, because our standards were low. If we can develop a solid database ... % MONNCI Network connection interrupted, possible data loss. [Attached, running] [SysOp Note: At this point I was knocked off of the system - only 1 or 2 minutes were lost] (Ted) Got knocked off! Can you repeat everything after "database" thanks? ga (5,marge Christensen) We got cut off... (5,Bill M.) Yes (5,Al) Barry got cut off... (5,Mark) What happened??? (5,Barry G.) We're back, how far did we get? (Ted) Barry. We all seemed to have gotten interrupted, you were saying "If we can develop a solid database...." ga (5,Barry G.) database to present to elected officials, then we can only hope that they can recognize the seriousness of the UFO phenomenon to the public and begin to fund scientific investigations. GA (Ted) Barry we want to thank you for joining us tonight and sharing your thoughts with us. Any final comments that you would like to make before we call it an evening? ga (5,Barry G.) I thought (when I was interrupted) that the NSA was finally getting even with us... (5,Mark) How do we write to Barry? (5,Barry G.) for that court case. Seriously, I enjoyed answering they can write to PO Box 176, Stoneham MA 02180. Thanks! GA (5,Mark) Thanks Barry (5,DON) Nite all..... (Ted) Good night Barry and thanks, thanks also to Jim Speiser for "keyboarding" and Marge for providing the coffee and doughnuts! (5,Mark) ? to Ted (5,Bill M.) nite (5,Bert) Bill from LA, your last name isn't Moore is it?ga (5,Bill M.) no, who's that? 5,Mark) Ted, What is paranet? ga (Ted) ParaNet is an independent network of around thirty or so personal computer systems across the USA devoted to the exploration of the paranormal. Jim Speiser is the founder and is also the Co-SysOP here on ISSUES. (How's that Tom Mickus?) ga (5,Tom Mickus) Hi Ted....just got in...kinda late... (5,Mark) Ted, If you don't mind, how does one go about joining Paranet? I am doing research on a book that I might write and want to find out how to get hooked up with the right people, ga. (Ted) Tom Mickus can help you on how to join Paranet or you can write via EMAIL to Jim Speiser. (5,Bert) I have a quick question for you Tom!! ga (5,Bert) Does the "museum" in Lake Ontario have a location near Toronto. (5,Tom Micks) Yes...near Hamilton..GA (5,Bert) ie the one Neil Palumbo use to talk about here? ga (5,Tom Mickus) YES...that is the same one I suspect..GA (5,Bert) ok, thanks. Well, got to run. Night all. (5,Tom Mickus) Phone this number...it'll tell you all you need to know 416-244-9999


E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank