#: 173147 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 02-Nov-91 09:01:57 Sb: #Mormon/Occult Fm: James Spencer 70

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#: 173147 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 02-Nov-91 09:01:57 Sb: #Mormon/Occult Fm: James Spencer 70662,3504 To: All I'm still looking for breaking news on the story which appreared Friday (9/25) in the Salt Lake Tribune titled: "LDS Church Reviewing Asbuse Claims: Satanic Rituals Copy Sacred Ceremonies." The story said Elder Glenn L. Pace, second counselor in the Presiding Bishopric of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reported he interviewed 60 people who had been ritually abused by "Mormon leaders, temple workers and members of the famed Mormon Tabernacle Choir." Rituals included being "baptized by blood" and being "stuffed into plastic bags and immersed in water." Pace said, "I'm sorry to say that many of the victims have had their first flashbacks while attending the temple for the first time." I have a copy of the Pace Document. It was authored more than a year ago and "leaked" last week. It was written to the "Strengthening Church Members committee" of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In it he says all of the 60 people were members of the Church. Forty-five of them "allege witnessing and/or participating in human sacrifice. . . .when 60 witnesses testify to the same timpe of torture and murder, it becomes impossible fore me, personally, not to believe them. . . .I'm sorry to say that many of the victims have had their first flashback (memories of the rituals) while attending the temple for the first time." I'm trying to get the whole report put together to upload Jim #: 173526 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 03-Nov-91 16:53:24 Sb: #173345-#Mormon/Occult Fm: James Spencer 70662,3504 To: Gerald G. Fuller/IL 71530,1044 (X) I started this string by saying I was looking for more information on this subject. As of this date, I have two newspaper front pages in my posession: the Salt Lake Tribune, October 25, 1991 and the South Idaho Press, same day. Both papers say Pace referred calls on the subject to the Church's pulic relations department where Spokesman Don LeFever acknowledged the existence of the report, but declined to comment on it. The 12-page Pace document, written to the "Strengthening Church Members Committee," says the victims claim that bishops, a patriarch, a stake president, temple workers, and members of the Tabernacle choir are among the perpetrators. Qoute: "I don't pretend to know how prevalent the problem is. All I know is that I have met with 60 victims. Assuming each one comes from a coven of 13, we are talking about the involvement of 800 or so right here on the Wasatch Front. obviously, I have only seen those coming forth to get help.. . . .I hope you will will excuse me if I am being presumptuous, but I am concluding this paper with scriptures I feel support my belief that these activities are real anc cannot be ignored. "The Things I have been writing about go back to Cain and Abel: 'And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou sahlt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tel it, they salt surely di; and this that thy Father may not know it; and this day i will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands. 'And Satan swore unto Cain that he would do according to his commands. And all these things were done in secret. 'And Cain said: Truly I am Hahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called master Mahan, and he ggloried in his wickedness." (Moses 5.29-31)'" I'm trying to get this document together so I can upload it. In the mean time, if you want a photo-copy, send me your address. #: 173168 S8/NEWAGE/PAGAN/OCCULT 02-Nov-91 12:01:43 Sb: #173150-'Satanic Abuse' in Utah Fm: Paul S.C. Suliin 76366,3514 To: New Churchman 72737,2150 (X) NC, I was on the radio in Utah (KTKK) this past weekend talking about this issue with Martin Tanner of "Religion on the Line". The blow-up occurred when a couple of radical anti-Mormon activists named Gerald and Sandra Tanner (distant relatives of my host, I'm told) published an internal LDS memo detailing spreading reports of Satanic Ritual Abuse within the church. The allegations are all the standard stories for the most part, and as usual are coming chiefly from patients undergoing psychotherapy. There are a couple of interesting variations in this case, however -- first, several of the "survivors" have implicated members of the Mormon hierarchy in their stories. and second it is being alleged that these "satanic" groups are perverting and debasing specifically *Mormon* rituals rather than more orthodox Christian masses as is common in most survivor stories. These two items make me suspect that we're dealing with another set of urban legends, this time being tailored to the myth-system of the Mormons who are suffering these fantasies. --Paul #: 173237 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 02-Nov-91 15:54:33 Sb: #173146-#Mormon/Occult Fm: Paul S.C. Suliin 76366,3514 To: James Spencer 70662,3504 (X) Jim, I was on KTKK last weekend talking with Martin Tanner (host of "Religion on the Line") about this and other issues. I've had a lot of experience looking at so-called "ritual abuse survivors" and I'm very skeptical. This one has all the earmarks of a classic case. The thing is that literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of reports like these have been investigated by the police in many states, and even by the FBI. Not a single one has panned out. There is a very good book edited by Dr. David Bromley, a social worker at Virginia Commonwealth University, entitled "The Satanism Scare". It presents papers by several respected anthropologists, sociologists, and others which indicate that the entire "Satanic ritual abuse" scare currently sweeping the country is little more than a rumour-panic or urban legend. --Paul --- QM v1.00 * Origin: A Mormon radical, and proud of it! (1:161/911.5) #: 173483 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 03-Nov-91 13:58:12 Sb: #173286-#Mormon/Occult Fm: Paul S.C. Suliin 76366,3514 To: James Spencer 70662,3504 (X) James, You misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that Elder Pace is part of the hoax, but that he is a victim of it. I've often heard the argument that runs "There are so many people telling the same story that it must be true" with regard to Satanic Ritual Abuse. However, I see it somewhat differently. It is true that there are literally hundreds of people who have come forward with these stories. But when I look at that fact I think "Now why, among all these many stories, is there *not one shred* of physical evidence?" It seems to me that if Satanic Ritual Abuse were real, then the more often someone came forward to talk about it the more likely it would be to discover some sort of proof; even the Mafia isn't able to hide *all* evidence of their crimes. To me, the more these tales multiply without substantiation, the more suspect they become. The fact that the story has mutated now, so that when Mormons tell it we find Mormon rituals being perverted rather than the usual "run of the mill" Christian rites, makes me even more suspicious. Do Satanists tailor their perversions to different groups' tastes? Or do we have "Mormon Satanists," "Catholic Satanists," and "Protestant Satanists"? I've studied genuine Satanism and I can tell you this all sounds highly unlikely. And, as I've said, it sounds just like the many hundreds of other claims of "Satanic Ritual Abuse" which have come up empty. --Paul PS -- I see a serious mistake in my last message to you. I identified Dr. David Bromley as a "social worker". That's not so -- Dr. Bromley is a *professor of sociology* at Virginia Commonwealth University. My apologies to you and to Dr. Bromley. --- QM v1.00 * Origin: A Mormon radical, and proud of it! (1:161/911.5) #: 173638 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 04-Nov-91 00:09:11 Sb: #173523-Mormon/Occult Fm: Paul S.C. Suliin 76366,3514 To: James Spencer 70662,3504 (X) James, We're begging the question here. You tell me that Elder Pace met with over 60 people, and I say "Yes, and I've heard similar tales from hundreds more, but none has produced evidence to back up the stories." To which you reply "But Elder Pace met with over 60 people, and *he* believes them." This is where I came in, James. I say that Elder Pace is being fooled. I say again -- Where is the evidence? How about names, dates, places that could be used in a police investigation? How about the body of even one of the many alleged sacrificial victims? How about *verifiable* testimony from someone who is not a mental patient? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, James. No one else who has proposed these stories has been able to produce that sort of evidence either. But I would like you consider that fact in deciding whether or not to buy this stuff. <> This is about the normal ratio. In fact, if anything, there is a higher-than-usual proportion of men -- the vast majority of "Ritual Abuse Survivors" are adult women. This is another reason why I question these stories -- where are all of the male survivors? Most of these folks claim to have been members of the "cults," not just victims. Are 88% of all Satanists female? Definitely not, in my experience. In fact, most Satanists I've met are male. BTW, in another message you quoted Elder Pace's "calculation" of the number of Satanists in his area. He based his estimate on an assumption of 13 people in each Satanic group. This again shows that Elder Pace is either being misled or knows little about the subject (or possibly both), since the idea that a group of Satanists or Witches (not the same thing, I should mention) must have 13 members is a myth. But don't just take my word on all this, James. Listen to Sgt. Don Bell, chief of the Salt Lake City PD's Intelligence Unit (quoted in the Chicago Tribune): "I have no doubt whatsoever that these people who describe enduring satanic ritual abuse are victims of some very profound type of abuse. But I do not believe that there is an intergenerational network of Satanists active in this valley. "In 20 years of doing law-enforcement work in this city I am unaware of any case where we had some sort of "cult" and part of the ritual was to sacrifice children, conduct human sacrifices, drink human blood, or any of these other bizarre things. "On the other hand, I can cite case after case where we have contact with mental health care professionals who have a patient who tells them that they witnessed a sacrificial killing or something and have convinced the psychologist or whatever that it really did happen." This whole story is riddled with inconsistencies and missing evidence, James. I think that the LDS hierarchy is being sold a bill of goods. --Paul #: 173640 S13/META-CHRISTIANITY 04-Nov-91 00:09:30 Sb: #173504-Mormon/Occult Fm: Paul S.C. Suliin 76366,3514 To: KEITH IRWIN 75415,1756 <> Satanic rumour-panics have a variety of sources; in fact, sociologists and folklorists are starting to look at that very question in a serious way. Sources which have been identified include: --Talk-show hosts and programs. There are a lot of "copycat' survivors. --Books by survivors. The one that started it all was "Michelle Remembers" by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder (1980). Pazder was a psychologist; Smith was his patient. Her story emerged under hypnotherapy (as many do). Even though he admits he has no physical evidence, Pazder believed his patient and began exploring her memories of supposed "cult" abuse in her childhood. Eventually, Pazder divorced his wife and married his patient, then quit his practice and he and Smith went on the lecture circuit talking about their book. Reports of Satanic Ritual Abuse are all but unheard of prior to 1980, but have spread like wildfire since the publication of "Michelle Remembers". --Therapists. Some therapists "innoculate" their patients with these stories without intending to, as described by Sherrill Mulhern of the University of Paris. Others actively promote "ritual abuse" as an explanation for their patients' problems. Consider the case of Pamala Klein, who was profiled in a recent episode of "Inside Edition". Klein is largely responsible for a wave of Satanic hysteria which recently swept Great Britain. Children were taken away from parents by overzealous social workers and dozens of people were charged with ritual abuse, until a police investigation proved that none of the charges were true, and all of this because Klein and a few other American "experts" on ritual abuse spread a lot of nonsense among British social workers. Here in the US, Klein was responsible for similar charges being filed against a man in Illinois, after Klein "counseled" a little girl who claimed the man may have "touched her". After several sessions with Klein, the little girl started telling fantastic tales about Satanism, which again were shown to be false by police. The parents of the poor girl whom Klein victimized are now suing her and others for millions of dollars. --News stories. Incautious news reporting has spread many Satanic rumours. For example, there were three prominent cases of alleged ritual abuse at day-care centers in the mid-80's, two in California and another in Minnesota. None of the charges were ever proven, but since then there have been dozens of reports of "Satanic preschools" where there were none before. --Good old-fashioned gossip is also a prime source for rumours of all kinds. The moral: Don't believe everything you read. --Paul --- QM v1.00 * Origin: A Mormon radical, and proud of it! (1:161/911.5)

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