Transcription of interview on Radio 4 PM.
Studio."...Children from Rochdale who are involved in allegations of
ritualistic child abuse. The children were made wards of court after claims
that they had been subjected to emotional and sometimes physical abuse
during whats been loosley termed "satanic" rituals. Five children have
since been returned to their parents. Meanwhile the director of S.S. in
nearby Manchester confirmed today that 13 children there have been taken
into care since late last year in connection of similar allegations, though
there is no direct link with the Rochdale investigation. P.A.I.N. claim
that recommendations in the Buttler-Shloss inquiry into events in Cleavland
wernt followed in Rochdale, their chairman, David Monk, outlined his
David Monk(PAIN)"it's clearly shown that Cleavland was not a one off. I
think following Cleavland the Dept of health issued a guidance document
which is called "working together" and whats happend is some local
authorities have incorporated those recommenations into their policies, but
other authorities have virtually ignored them."
Studio "Where do you say Rochdale did'nt follow the Buttler/shloss
D.M. "..Well I think there was some fundamental principals inshrined in
those recommendations, one of which was that parents should be involved in
case conferences. And I understand that in Rochdale they were not notified,
either verbally or in writing, or given the right to attend. As a result of
that they were, they did'nt infact have their basic human rights of hear
the allegations and be able to make reply to those allegation, they did'nt
have those met. Secondly,ermm, we are concerned about the length of time
that seems to have been taken over the investigaive interviews, ermm, and
in fact after six months of the children removed from their parents and not
having access to their parents some of those investigative assessements are
still taking place, and we would suggest there need to be a time limit on
Studio." What do you want this enquiry to establish?"
D.M. "I think that one of the things we would like from the enquiry is to
suggest that some of these guidlines that the dept of health have been
laying down need to have some power behind them and perhapes need to be
Studio "Some of the details of what is alleged to have happend to these
children are quite horrific is'nt it of the utmost concern that the
children should be protected from parents who may be exposing them to
allsorts of..very strange things. Is'nt that the primary concern of S.S.?"
D.M." That must be the primary concern, but there is a danger that if you
remove children for six months, and not allow them accsess to their
parents, and they turn out to have been normal loving parents, the abuse
that you will have done to that child could be as great or greater than the
abuse you are trying to protect them from.
Studio "David Monk, chairman of PAIN. Well Bob Lewis is honorary secretary
of the association of directors of social services, and he's taken a close
interest in the case. I asked him if he would welcome an official enquiry."
Bob Lewis "I think the call is very premature. First of all as I understand
it the S.S. committee in Rochdale are to recieve a report tomorrow, and
they will have to obviously will have to make a decision as to wether they
are satisfied with the way in which their staff have delt with the
investigation so far. Secondly I would remind you as against in Cleavland
the local authority approching magistrates and obtaining place of safety
orders, and interim care orders, which are more difficult, if not
immpossible to challenge. In Rochdales case they did go to the high court,
they wardship initialy only ran for 21 days and they had to go back to the
high court with fer,,, with the evidence that gave them concern and to
prove to the judge that they had grounds for their concern. And of course
in a wardship case it is possible for a parent or another party to
challenge the wardship ruling at any time."
Studio "Bob Lewis"
Transcription of Radio 4 news report
on the Rochdale Satanic abuse.
Six O'clock news. 12.9.90.
Studio voice."Children have been take into care, as a result inquiries into
alleged ritualistic abuse. Manchester City council say that 13 children
have been removed from their parents over a period of nearly 12 months,
this is in addition to the 20 children who have been made wards of court in
the Rochdale area following a separate investigation also involving
alleged ritualistic child abuse. There have been calls for a government
inquiry into the way that Rochdale council has handled that investigation,
Kevin Bouquet reports.."
K.B. "The investigation in Manchester has been running since late last year
and is thought to involve children from four different families, the
director for social services for Manchester council said the childrens
future is due to be decided shortly in the high court, and he was'nt
prepared to comment on the case before then. However it's understood
there's no conncetion between the Manchester investigation and the other
inquiry into allegations of ritualistic child abuse taking place 12 miles
away in Rochdale, where 20 children made wards of court. Rochdale council
was criticized today by a charity, Parents Against Injustice(PAIN), who
claim they have failed to put into effect lessons learned in the Cleavland
crisis. The charity were critcal of the councils failure to allow parents
accsess to 15 children still been held in care, thay have asked for a
government inquiry, but this has been ruled out by the health dept. In a
statement issued earlier this week, Rochdale S.S. director said comparison
with Cleavland were inappropriate as the two inquiries involve different
types of allegation."
Transcription of the end of BBC radio Shropshire
Morning news reports.
Male voice."...Christians groups have put such claims about deliberatly."
Womans voice." They see Satan at work on halloween and all sorts of other
occasions, ermmm, their whole outlook is defined in terms of Satan very
often, and a lot of these stories do in fact come from there there are
books that are put out by fundamentalist Christian press which tell you how
to rape your virgin on the alter in six easy lessons, and give instructions
as to how to be a proper Satanist, it's much easyer to find out from
certain groups of evangelical christians how to be a Satanist and do nasty
things than it is from any Satanist group."
Male Voice:"Observers like Dr Barker also point out that children are quite
capable of making up bizarre tales of abuse if suggestion are made
beforehand and leading questions are asked. But the NSPPC say such an
approach is to cynical, in a prepared statement, they've refused to give
any interviews to the press they said this..".
NSPCC STATEMENT:"In cases of suspected abuse the childs safty and wellfare
must always be paramount, it's essential that children who come forward to
talk about been abused should be taken seriously, and listened to
carefully, it's very rare that a small child would have the ability to
invent the type of acts that typify abuse cases."
Male Voice:" Thats a veiw indorsed by those who have come into direct
contact with children who have told such stories. Social worker(Could not
make out his name.)is the national development consultant for child sexual
abuse work at the National Childrens Home (NCH),which is one of the largest
childcare charities in Britain. He says he's seen upto 20 cases of
ritualistic abuse in the past two years, and he's certian that none of them
NCH:"The things that make us, ermmm, pay attention to what children are
saying, and certainly take very seriously what they are saying is the
incredible fear, ermmm, fear of of very ordinary things, or even fear of
things that normal children would actually be quite pleased about, like
Easter, like Christmas, or farther christmas, ermm, we had a child who went
shopping became absolutely hysterical in the store, and it was very very
difficult to find out what it wa that made her so terrified, and the
children who are in real terrorin a way that we have very rarely seen in
children who come into our care, and have have had abusive experiences
Studio voice" But Mr Vandendonk does agree with sceptics like Dr Barker on
one point, they say the people who carry-out these practices are not
SATANISTS, in that they don't worship the devil or practice black
magic.They are simply perverts, who use satanisim and rituals to help them
achieve there aims."
NCH" What I believe these rings to be about is a way of abusing children,
and the ritual is used to scare children into silence, and also in a sense
to make sure that when they do tell their story it is so unblieveable,ermm
that nobody, in their right mind almost, decide the children are telling
the truth. An example of this is a child who, a two year old, who was
talking about been abused by a lion. It makes absolutely no sense to people
until, ermm, a nine or ten year old child said yes that happend, but I
knew it was not a real lion because it had zips around it's paws. So we now
know that the child was likely to have been abused by a person dressed up
as a lion."
Transcription of news item on radio 4's
World At One
Studio link: "Children said to have faced ritualistic abuse will not
immediately be returned to their parents. This is despite the decision of
the chief constable of greater Manchester, Mr James Anderton, not to bring
criminal charges against the parents of 17 children following an
investigation into alleged occult practices, from Manchester Kevin Bouquet
K.B: "12 of the children are still in council care, and following Mr
Andertons decision there have been calls for them to be returned
immediately to their parents. But Rochdale director of social services, Mr
Gordon Littlemore, said it would be for the high court to decide the
childrens future, taking into account the overall wellfare and best
interests of each child. The council point out that since the enquiry began
the high court judge has confirmed on more than a dozen occasions that
children should remain wards of court. they said it's possible the judge
might continue to hold that view irrespetive of the poilce decision not to
bring charges against the parents. The council social services committee
are due to descuss the case at a meeting later today."