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Comments are welcome via MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594. America-Online Compuserve, and other on-line services have Internet e-mail capability, so you can send e-mail via MCI. "New Age Plot?" [heading reads: Does anyone give much creedence to the notion that the New Age Movement is the final deception described in Matthew 24?] 1 Subj: A few Christian leaders . . . Date: -02-14 00:05:06 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago have printed their convictions, in books like "The Seduction of Christianity" and "Dark Secrets of the New Age", that this movement is more dangerous than it appears to most of us. What do you think? 2 Subj: Plot? Date: -02-14 01:32:24 EST From: Non-fundie Christian number 2 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Quite honestly think that guys like Tim LaHaye, etc.....sell a lot of books, scare a lot of people, and nare a word of it is reliable (the NEW racism of the 90's). I am not a new Ager, have seen some posts from some in Religious Realms and from what I've seen, it's very ethereal and a little far out for me. I am not, however, religiocentric. Smacks of McCarthyism from where I stand. 3 Subj: I go along.... Date: -02-14 01:52:27 EST From: A Mormon Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I tend to go along with the Pharisee Gamaliel (Acts 5:34-40). Just leave them alone, if it's of man, it will eventually go away. 4 Subj: The New age plot....... Date: -02-14 11:37:03 EST From: So-called skeptic number 5 Posted on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I think the New Age Plot holds about as much water as the people who claim they have spoken to Norstadamus or people who claim to be Channelers or people who claim they have lived past lives or people that claim they dream about the future...... I could go on and on but I think you get the meaning 5 Subj: On the other hand.... Date: -02-14 12:04:23 EST From: New Ager 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago On the other hand, if we "New Age" monsters exhibit and feel nothing but love for each person we meet, or make a darn good effort to do so, and if we realize that the source of this love is not of this earth, and if we spend years of ou lives scrutinizing every aspect of every religion, and even after reading most of the Christian works, sitll choose to go on with this path, being as totally loving a human as we can possibly be, and MOST OF ALL, if we realize that we are going to judged by our actions by the source of all of our love and can still live with ourselves with the faith that we are doing the right thing, then who, other than our chosen god, has the right to judge us? It just might be that our god is the same as everyone elses, since the God of the old testament said NOT to give him a name. Now, I realize that I am about to get battered with "But you dont accept Jesus as your saviour and are damned to an eternal hell", but the trick is, there is nobody here that can shake my faith in what I believe. If you want to believe that God and Christ are the ONLY path to eternal happiness, then I am truly happy that you have found something that makes your lives full and rich. New Agers have found something that makes OUR lives full and rich as well! Simply because we choose not to name our god doesnt make us WRONG, any more than the Buddhists are wrong, the Jews are wrong, the Moslems are wrong, the everyone else in the world's are wrong. I feel a need to add something about he who is without sin ......... 6 Subj: New Ager 1 - 1 Date: -02-14 16:27:36 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Much "to-do" is made of Christian 'bashers', their view that "Jesus is the only way" and the apparent call to convert the world (instead of minding their own business). Let's look at a few New Age bashers: "A World Religion for the New Age is needed to meet the needs of thinking people and to unify mankind . . . The good news . . . is that there is already much activity toward required actions and conditions and that an increasing number of people are either consciously or unconsciously preparing mankind for a World Religion that's compatible with the New Age. However, The Plan cannot be fully realized until the New Age Christ comes. The leadership of the Messiah is the catalyst needed to materialize the New Age Kingdom . . . The Messiah will help mankind learn to cooperate consciously with God's plan for the peace and well-being of the world . . . we will have, before the total program is in place, the guidance of the Avatar or Messiah." (Lola Davis, "Toward a World Religion for the New Age") "There is actually a plan and a purpose behind all creation . . . World Unity is the goal towards which evolution is moving. The World Plan includes: A World Organization . . . A World Economy . . . A World Religion." (Vera Alder, "When Humanity Comes of Age") "The Gathering is taking place. New Age believers in all religions are uniting again-this time in a New Commission to reveal the Light of the World . . . and begin the Aquarian Age of Spirituality on Planet Earth . . . For you to be an effective member of the Planetary Commission, you should understand your role in the implementation of the Divine Plan. Yes, the salvation of the world does depend on you." (John Randolph Price [Head of the "Quartus Foundation for Spiritual Research" and the "Planetary Commission for Global Healing"], "The Planetary Commission", back cover) "The revolution has begun . . . the pace is quickening. Throughout the world, men and women are joining in the uprising (and rising up) and are coming forward to be counted as part of a new race that will someday rule the universe . . . The New Age WILL BE. A new heaven on earth WILL BE. Preparations are being made now, and out of chaos will come the beginning of peace on earth, a New Order for Mankind." (John Randolph Price, "The Superbeings") "Now we can co-create the future according to the Divine Plan; . . . the elimination of fear, the dissolving of false beliefs, and the erasing of karmic debts in each individual soul." (John Randolph Price, "The Planetary Commission") "Humanity needs to realize that there IS a Plan and to recognize its influence in unfolding world events, even when these appear as hindering factors, operating by means of destruction." (M.E. Haselhurst, "The Plan and its Implementation") "New Age spokesmen teach that the earth must soon undergo chaos through a 'purification process,' and Christians are at the top of the New Age list of those to be 'purified.'" (Texe Marrs, "Dark Secrets of the New Age") "By revelation, God's divine plan for the New Age was revealed to me . . . humanity is to go through a great transitional period, turning from the old age of darkness to the New Age of light. During this transitional period, those with 'negative vibrations' will be removed from the earth in an earthshaking purification process." (Meishu Sama by Moira Timms, "Prophecies and Predictions: Everyone's Guide to the Coming Changes") 7 Subj: New Ager 1 -- 2 Date: -02-14 16:28:53 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago "What is The Plan? It includes the installation of a new world government and new world religion under Maitreya." (Benjamin Creme, full-page ad by Tara Center in twenty major newspapers around the globe, April 25, 1982) David Spangler claims he has communicated a number of times with the New Age Messiah. In his communications with Spangler, this spirit calls himself "John" or "Limitless Love and Truth." This spirit has indeed verified that a plan is being rapidly implemented, declaring: "I . . . present to you, therefore, the revelation of man's destiny, for behold! I have placed my seal upon this planet." Spangler's 'guide' also contends that The Plan is concerned with rebuilding mankind after a cleansing of the earth through the eradication of negative forces. This is necessary, claims the spirit, to bring in a joyous new heaven and a new earth: "This is the message of Revelation: we are now the builders of a New Age. We are called upon to embark on a creative project . . . in order to reveal the new heaven and build the New earth." (David Spangler, "Revelation: The Birth of a New Age") One organization that has publicly stated its endorsement of The Plan is the New Group of World Servers, a group intensely dedicated to a One World Government and a One World Religion. The New Group of World Servers says of its members: "They believe in an inner world government and an emerging evolutionary plan." The group's official statement of purpose includes these four objectives: "1) Bring about world peace, guide world destiny and usher in the New Age. 2) Form the vanguard for the Reappearance of the Christ and his Great Disciples (the Masters of Wisdom). 3) Recognize and change those aspects of religion and government which delay the full manifestation of planetary unity and love. 4) Provide a center of light within humanity and hold the vision of the Divine Plan before mankind." (from the promotional material of The New Group of World Servers) "Evolution is . . . the response to the call of Logos, of God. It is the purpose behind The Plan. It is God's drawing of creation back to himself . . . Man is evolving toward union with the universe, as planned by the Higher Will, becoming a god serving the greater God: the planet earth, or GAIA." (Barry McWaters, "Conscious Evolution: Personal and Planetary Transformation") "We start the revolution within each of us and work out from there, getting groups of similar minded rebels together and drafting campaigns to make the enemy surrender . . . In this New Age we are our own commanders and infantry, truly special forces of a sort that has never been seen at war before . . . Charge on to the only true victory there is, that of spiritual liberation . . . Like the colonists of this country who began this struggle for liberation, we owe it to ourselves to complete it. The fate of the world depends on us." (Jack Underhill, "Life Times: Forum for a New Age") There are many, many, many more quotes that I could refer to. Snoooze, I'm not so concerned with your "Live and Let Live" quite amicable attitude. I'm concerned with those of your piers. 8 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4's so-called New Age Date: -02-14 18:00:18 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I know about the Benjamin Creme publicity. I remember it. However, all that's quite old. Find me a person who has confidence in that today? Your information shows 1982. Soon after much that had been predicted didn't happen, everyone lost interest. You're saying that this Group of World Servers want's to "Recognize and change those aspects of religion and government which delay the full manifestation of planetary unity and love." Do you realize that the term "World Servers" has been used in a number of publications and in a number of organizations? I first became acuainted with it through Lucis Publishing's books, the "Bailey" books. The Baily books and the others can each use the the term with different meaning. The original idea of a one world government is for it to come about with *no* earthly organization assistance from a spiritual group, only within the regular bodies that exist such as the UN. It's not going to be a "New Age" government, according to this idea as it was originally presented, no spiritual group is to assist as an earthly organization. If you read my writing that lends definition to "New Age," you'll see more of what "New Age" is about. It's a spiritual influence, and no *political* group makes it what it is. "New Age" is nothing more than a 2000 year period, with certain spiritual characteristics. It cannot be a religion or a political group, so these people who claim to be "New Age" should get some real definitions. I've shown sources for the definitions. Jack Underhill -- never heard of him. Much of what you're writing about is similar to what it would be like if I quoted from any so-called "Christian" cultists. You know there are some of them around, and they often come up with some really bizarre stuff. If you go to California, you'll find people calling themselves Christians who cook babies for breakfast, I'll bet. I don't make reference to Christian cultists, and I don't believe that you're presenting anything here but a distorted picture by doing something similar yourself. This is McCarthyism at its worst. A good test would be to ask a cross-section of people who subscribe to "New Age Journal" what they think of Benjamin Creme. Just get a cross-sectional 100 subscriber mailing list and ask them. Most of them never heard of him. Then ask about an organization to, through physical effort, bring about a one world government. Maybe you'll find 1 %. Ask what they think it means --"group of world servers." Another thing, go to a "New Age" section of a major bookstore, such as B. Dalton's or Walden. Is Benjamin Creme on the bookshelf? Check for the other books you quoted. Then, go to a "New Age" or "Metaphysical" bookstore and locate it by checking the Yellow Pages. See if these people you quote have books there. I've been doing a lot of browsing, from NY to CA. and that sort of stuff never got noticed, if it existed at all. There are all kinds of books, and many are obtainable by mail order, but are not available in the book stores. I've received catalogs of some so-called "New Age" books. I don't read them very carefully, so I don't know if any of the stuff you mention is in them. It doesn't matter, since just mail order makes it relatively obscure. I've been acquainted with a large variety of New Age organizations for about the past 25 years, everything from Eastern Religions to UFO organizations, from California to NYC, and places in between. I've been to a whole life Expo, and for the one's I didn't attend, I looked at the program schedule. I've been to workshops, meetings in people's homes, Ashrams, read UFO bulletins, etc.. I've met people who think they're about to get an airlift to outer space from some benevolent space beings. I've met all kinds, and that stuff you're talking about is so obscure, someone had to dig real deep to find it. In fact, they are so obscure they have to be ineffective, except on a very small scale, and temporarily so. 9 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 - one more thing Date: -02-14 18:50:46 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Creme was popular in 1982, but not anymore. It may be that you can find some of that stuff that you quoted in your post, in bookstores. If so, how are they selling? The test of what is real, is what lasts. I can show you books that were written in the mid 70's that are still on the bookshelves. I can show you groups that are still in existence. They are all about ideas, and spirituality and love, and nothing to do with some so-called "plot." If you want to know what the new age, the age of Aquarius, (not some organization) is about, then look at that material. Check out the copyright date. If you can show something that's a plot, and it's political, than that's all it is. A plot goes on. The communist plot went on and on. It was going to be the system of the world, remember? However, when it comes to New Age ideas, those definately identifiable as such, those prominent, they don't usually last more than a few years if they're anything like what you've written, such that they're some kind of plot that you mention. They may have a few stragglers hanging on, but that's not lasting. Something lasting is what is prominent, what sells lots of books and keeps on doing it in quantity, or what brings in a lot of followers to some organization, and keeps them. 10 Subj: New Age Plots Indeed!!! Date: -02-14 19:24:42 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago What are the New Agers going to take the world over with? A Crystal? Perhaps they will meditate and bring on a big rainstorm? That ought to do well against a B-52 or a nuclear warhead...LOL!!! Besides, what so many people don't realize, is that WEALTH is too important to too many people for this world to ever be taken over or destroyed, unless the almighty himself decides to destroy it. New Age plots are on the same rank of Kennedy not being assassinated by Oswald, and Reagan holding up the release of hostages to beat an already beaten Carter. Hey, I heard about a new theory on Lincoln's death. They say that Ronald Reagan and George Bush went back in time and had Lincoln assassinated because they wanted slavery to continue. You know those racist republicans... 11 Subj: Take Note, right winger Date: -02-14 20:55:57 EST From: New Ager 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I dont think anyone said that the "New Agers" are going to take over the earth. No argument, just an observation. -Namaste 12 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 Date: -02-14 21:04:55 EST From: New Ager 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I am always impressed when someone quotes from books! I never read anything that could be classified as "new age", with the possible exception of "In Tune With The Infinite" by Ralph Waldo Trine and even then, I dont have a copy any longer and couldn't quote him if I wanted to. I wish I read more!! *sigh* But, I thought the point of your posts were to show "New Age Bashing"? I didnt see as much bashing as I saw some predictions and revelations. Maybe I missed the point. I know that I often suffer from the same myopia that I accuse other sects of. Heck, I often accuse other "New Agers" because I am so convinced of my own path (ah, well, its my faith and it works really well for me and it fills me with great joy and I could go on forever but I'll resist the temptation! But back to the point here. I dont think there is enough evidence to warrant calling what I and others do a plot?! 13 Subj: babies for breakfast Date: -02-14 21:15:29 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594): " If you go to California, you'll find people calling themselves Christians who cook babies for breakfast, I'll bet. Buddhist New Ager: Actually, I believe you should have said Oklahoma. 14 Subj: or, possibly, Date: -02-14 21:18:23 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Haverhill [that's where right winger lives] 15 Subj: Babies for breakfast Date: -02-14 21:24:52 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Buddhist New Ager: Alright, you guys from California, I didn't mean you are baby eaters, or even might be. You knew that anyway, Buddhist New Ager, didn't you? For all you other people in California who may not know what I meant, the reference to California is that just about any organization, (some of them cults) of any type, is liable to spring out of there. So many have. That doesn't mean all Californians are into cults. Oklahoma? Well, I don't know much of that. 16 Subj: right winger - Check out those crystals! Date: -02-14 23:30:43 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago What are the New Agers going to take the world over with? A Crystal? Perhaps they will meditate and bring on a big rainstorm? (right winger) Alright right winger, you think we're all just a bunch of puny people with Crystals, huh? Well, next time you see a crystal around someone's neck, watch out! You didn't know that for years we've been planting a little spray gun inside of them. This thing will spray out a powder that envelopes the world. Then, it will rain this powder, and when everyone can't see, we'll move in, and the world is ours. Today crystals. Tomorrow the world! 17 Subj: now you've done it Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Date: -02-15 00:03:26 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago From now on, So called skeptic number 5 will quote your story when anyone denies that newagers are the antichrist. "Why, a LEADER, Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594), ADMITS they are spraying MAGICAL chemicals into our nostrils where they will spread into our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS and will WEAKEN us to the POINT that they can establish THE Yeltsin-based communist world government THAT they have BEEN wanting all aLONG." 18 Subj: NEW AGE Date: -02-15 00:44:10 EST From: So-called skeptic number 6 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago The solution is obvious: everyone should be issued a CRM114 Discriminator. By the way, I didn't appreciate that crack about Nostradamus [the original one.] I DID speak with him the other day. He was having breakfast with Elvis Presley at Lenny's. Denny's 19 Subj: ROFL Date: -02-15 01:00:24 EST From: OBSERVER 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago ROFL Buddhist New Ager!!~~~!!!!!! 20 Subj: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) #1 Date: -02-15 03:40:02 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I admit that Benjamin Creme has lost his credibility somewhat, but his small two-line quote is just a drop in the bucket compared to statements made by those who are still widely held as New Age leaders. Do you really consider remarks made by James Randolph Price, David Spangler, Lola Davis, Vera Alder, and Barry McWaters to NOT be representative of the collective views of New Agers? If not, please tell me whose views you would respect: New Thought Magazine, Jean Houston, Ernest Holmes, M. E. Hazelhurst, Meishu Sama, Psychic Guide, William Irwin Thompson, Life Times, New Age Bible, Peter Lemesurier, Robert Mueller, Gerald & Patricia Mische, LaVedi Lafferty, Bud Hollowell, Jonathan Stone, Marilyn Ferguson, Lewis Mumford, Donald Keys, Alice Bailey, Matthew Fox, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, H.G. Wells, Club of Rome, Lucis Trust, World Goodwill, Mihajlo Mesarovic, Edvard Pestel, John G. Bennet, Adolf Hitler, Magical Blend, Ruth Montgomery, Moira Timms, Corinne Heline, Jonathan Glover, Miriam Starhawk, you name it. I'll try to accomodate! As far as a 'one world government' goes, you know as well as I do that the term will ultimately have very little meaning once some great 'miracle worker' steps onto the scene who is seemingly able to perfectly predict future events, heal and cause to prosper those who 'believe', manipulate minds by telepathy, and create 'reality' by converting thought energy into matter. No one will give a flip who the current CEO of planet earth is. He can rot at his UN desk while the rest of us worship this 'obvious' Messiah, right? Do you really not subscribe to this dream? You yourself make these statements in your writing: "I contend that the New Age, as a movement outside of mainstream society, has died. It is now so much a part of society that we can soon forget the term, along with the movement. It's a wonderfully strong part or our society now, and it's becoming less able to be affected by media ridicule . . . [you go on to mention movies with New Age undertones, and a "Time" magazine article] . . . Well, some people will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the New Age, I say . . . though its influence is changing the entire planetary consciousness, those who do not want to participate are, of course, free to see reality as they wish." While I appreciate the flexibility of the last statement, I must wonder how your views might change, if persuaded that the one remaining 'out-of-vibration' sect (Christianity) is hindering everyone else's journey toward becoming Gods (or Masters) 21 Subj: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) #2 Date: -02-15 03:42:29 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Perhaps you can tell me what of the following definitions DOES NOT describe the COLLECTIVE New Age 'religious' view in your opinion: God = an energy force, immanent in all things. "God" can be referred to as she or he, mother or father, god or goddess. Mother Earth, the sun, the moon, the stars - indeed all of nature - can be worshiped as "God." You're God, I'm God. Christ = A reincarnated avatar, Messiah, or messenger sent from the hierarchy to give the living on earth spiritually advanced revelation. Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, Jesus, and many others were "Christs," but one greater than all of them will soon come to usher in the New Age. Angels = Ascended Masters, Masters of Wisdom, Ancient Masters, spirit guides, inner guides, spirit counselors, one's Higher Self, the Self, Superbeings, aeons, muses, or walk-ins. Collectively called the "hierarchy". Born Again = Personal or planetary transformation and healing. The point at which a 'believer' "lets go" and allows his Higher Self or Inner Guide to guide and direct his life. Some describe this as 'Kundalini, a Hindu term meaning "serpent power," a moment of instant rebirth when the recipient is said to be transformed by a flash of light, receiving the benefit of higher consciousness as well as greater spiritual awareness and wisdom. Such a rebirth conveys "Christ consciousness" on the individual. The Second Coming = There are two definitions to this phrase. First, at the Second Coming, a 'believer' achieves "Christ consciousness," an exalted, higher state in which he is spiritually transformed into a divine being. This phrase also can mean the appearance on earth of the Messiah, or "Christ", and his hierarchy from the spirit world. Heaven/Kingdom of God = almost indistinguishable terms. Each refers to a spiritually cleansed and purified earth in which mankind has achieved "Christ consciousness" and has become akin to god-kind. The New Age, or Aquarian Age, is expected to be the era when heaven and the kingdom of God are realized on earth. The reincarnated "Christ" is to reign over the New Age, bringing in a One World Religion and consolidating all nations into one monolithic government. Hell = nothing. Hell, judgement, sin, and evil do not exist. God is beyond good and evil. Neither is ultimately a relevant term. There are no 'mistakes', only 'learning experiences.' Am I close, or do you make no use of any of these terminologies? I never suggested that a one world government or one world religion would come into place through any forceful action. I suggested that once they are in place, 'The Plan' suggests eradication of all those with 'negative vibrations' so that the earth may be 'purified.' I'm going to take you up on your suggestion to visit a bookstore with a "New Age" section. It's been awhile. I'll get back with you. 22 Subj: right winger Date: -02-15 03:52:16 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago "What are the New Agers going to take over the world with? A Crystal?" No, their minds, their higher-selves, silly. Trouble is, you'll stay skeptical, sit back, and let 'em do it! If you don't yet believe in mind-power, then you need to visit Washington D.C. for about a week, and follow some head government officials around to Jean Houston "Practical Policy Alternatives" workshops. Then, you need to visit a few major corporations and see just how many copies of "Think & Grow Rich" newsletters and books you can find lying around (nearly half-a- million corporate subscribers). This is how people are obtaining wealth and success! Many investors and politicians wouldn't think of making a major move without first consulting with their favorite Guru. If you want quotes, I've got 'em. Here's one: The New York times reported on September 28, 1986 that the previous July, "Representatives of some of the nation's larggest corporations, including IBM, AT&T, and General Motors, met in New Mexico to discuss how metaphysics, the occult, and Hindu mysticism might help executives compete in the world marketplace . . . At Stanford University's renowned Graduate School of Business, a seminar called 'Creativity in Business' includes such topics as chanting, meditation, the use of tarot cards, and the 'New Age Capitalist' . . . Meanwhile, a recent survey of five-hundred corporate presidents and company owners revealed that half had sponsored some type of New Age 'consciousness raising technique' for their employees . . . Carl A Raschke, professor of religious studies at the University of Denver, describes the New Age as "the most powerful social force in the country today. I think it is as much a political movement as a religious movement and it's spreading into business management theory and a lot of other areas. If you look at it carefully, you see it represents a complete rejection of Judeo-Christian and bedrock American values." It's been openly going on for quite some time. Choose ignorance it you like. 23 Subj: New Ager 1 Date: -02-15 03:59:01 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago The point I was attempting to make is simply this: While you, personally, choose to allow me my own freedom to whatever form of spirituality I choose (which is what most of us Christians are charged with being unable to offer in return), many of your New Age brothers and sisters do not appear to be quite so tolerant. Even if you see all this as the predictive workings of some invisible collective force, are you not admittedly a part of that force? Would you not obey the Masters of Wisdom if they suggested your help in the extermination of we Christians? What if it is revealed that I (and other Christians) am hindering you (and other New Agers) in attaining "Masterhood?" What if the 'purification' process requires 'a little help from New Age friends', so to speak? Of course this can be turned around and asked of we Christians, also. But we have been given scriptures to rally around that offer consistent discernment regarding 'false' and 'deceiving spirits. We have printed, accepted doctrine that convicts most of us to live within certain ethical boundaries. We're not experimenting. Do New Agers bow to any collective accountability whatsoever? Isn't 'New Age' to one, something else to another? Are your beliefs not constantly changing, depending upon what is personally the most gratifying? If the new "Christ consciousness" includes the perception that "there are no mistakes, only learning experiences," why shouldn't the murder of Christians be labeled a learning experience? Please understand, this is not asked of you, personally; but at New Agers collectively. Once again, I appreciate YOUR tolerant views. 24 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 - "Tolerance"? Date: -02-15 10:12:34 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Please understand, this is not asked of you, personally; but at New Agers collectively. Once again, I appreciate YOUR tolerant views. (Fundamentalist number 4) So, you're looking for "tolerance"? Well, the references to what was written in the "New Age" folder, at least my writing, was about the fact that if you're having a discussion in a folder about Christianity, I'm not going to go into your folder and try to "save" you, since I don't consider your views to be something I should criticize, ridicule, or even dispute about. I'll discuss them *if* you invite me. However, though "New Age" is not a particular religion, people who allow themselves to be identified as such usually like the label and, generally, find your remarks, quotes, accusations, distasteful. So, this paranoia you're attempting to spread with a "New Age Plot?" title is a whole different issue than "tolerance" of other's views. If you'd read an article about Christians wanting to take over the world and kill New Agers in a newspaper, wouldn't you write a somewhat intolerant letter to the editor, so it would, hopefully, be read in the newspaper? 25 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 -- "Murder of Christians"? Date: -02-15 10:14:29 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago If the new "Christ consciousness" includes the perception that "there are no mistakes, only learning experiences," why shouldn't the murder of Christians be labeled a learning experience? (Fundamentalist number 4) Didn't Hitler get his way against the Jews by convincing so many people of what a threat they were? Didn't McCarthy get his way with political leaders, killing people's reputations and worse, by convincing them Communists could take over the US Government? Tell me, aren't some people, who say New Agers are such a threat, looking to get some mob psychology going, here? Do the people who write this nonsense have some hidden agenda? Come on, now! Murdering Christians, really? Is this what you have on your mind, Fundamentalist number 4? Fortunately all this paranoia represents a very small minority of the Christian community. I'm sure that most people who attend church must find this to be a gross distortion of what Christianity is about. They should speak up and say this is not their view. 26 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 -- "Dragged" "Leaders" Date: -02-15 10:16:09 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Well, some people will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the New Age, I say . . . though its influence is changing the entire planetary consciousness, those who do not want to participate are, of course, free to see reality as they wish." (Fundamentalist number 4 quoting Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) While I appreciate the flexibility of the last statement, I must wonder how your views might change, if persuaded that the one remaining 'out-of-vibration' sect (Christianity) is hindering everyone else's journey toward becoming Gods (or Masters) (Fundamentalist number 4) This is a change in *energy*, and the reason why I write that some will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the New Age, is that they are fighting the manifestations and energy on the entire planet. It reminds me, somewhat, of an elderly lady in a rocking chair, shaking her head, and saying, "What has this new generation coming to?" Well, the kicking and screaming one's are not missing a generation change, they are behind, in their consciousness, by 2000 years. The vibration on this planet is accelerating, and there must be certain anguish to those who are clinging to the energy they don't want to let go of. (Dan Kettler (CIS ID 72711.707) quoting himself) The above paragraph is a quote from a different post. This does not mean Christians will be dragged by some group of people into the New Age movement. It means that who is resisting the *energy* will feel uncomfortable during this *period of time*. You made reference to Snoooze's "peers." Now you're wondering what "New Age" people will do if persuaded that the one "out-of-vibration" sect (Christianity) is hindering everyone else's journey toward becoming Gods. Well, I for one, and many other New Agers don't have leaders of any type, and certainly not peers who find Christianity threatening, of any type, even the Christian label you carry, along with your paranoia. "New Age" does not signify a religion. Certainly there are a *some* who hold to the title, who have leaders who they'd listen to. But, as I wrote before, that's also true of so-called Christians. I've never met anyone that could be considered with "New Age" beliefs, nor have I read any such person, who has any problems with a present or future "out-of-vibration" sect (Christianity)...hindering everyone else's journey toward becoming Gods." I am not member of any such organization that was intended for the "overthrow" of Christianity, the harming of Christians, any sect, or any Government. Nor would I follow any so-called leader who might ask me to harm Christians. I, and many "New Age" people follow their spirit, a loving spirit, a tolerant spirit, and one without fear of such "monsters" such as you create, Fundamentalist number 4. Maybe, like at the McCarthy hearings, I should just say, "I refuse to answer on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me," which wasn't too far from the truth, since so many had been placed in a postion where it would be considered perjury to say a certain organization was not Communist, when, in fact it was not. If they'd said it was, then that would have been damning also. That bit about "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" reminds me of you asking people to be "tolerant." Do you expect silence in the face of this absurdity? Do you expect me to go lightly with this nonsense? Come on! Get real! 27 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 - Asking what? saywhat! Date: -02-15 10:18:05 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago If the new "Christ consciousness" includes the perception that "there are no mistakes, only learning experiences," why shouldn't the murder of Christians be labeled a learning experience? Please understand, this is not asked of you, personally; but at New Agers collectively...(Fundamentalist number 4) You take the views of some about there being no mistakes, and turn that into a probability of murdering Christians. Where is the logic here? Do you really think the New Age ideas, the predominance of them, (not some sect that calls itself "New Age") would find murdering Christians acceptable? Nearly everyone I've known would be shocked at the idea that since there "are no mistakes," lets go out and kill Christians. That idea that there are no mistakes does not necessarily have to apply to *everything*. You seem to have a black-white mentality, that things are either this way or that, with no gray areas in between. Sure, literally, there are *no* mistakes, could mean anything. But, really, who thinks that literally? Fundamentalists do. That's ok. I'm not here to bash fundamentalists. I'm just making a point that it goes hand-in-hand with the absolutely literal interpretation of the Bible. You're asking New Agers collectively whether the murder of Christians could be labeled just a learning experience. Is that all you're doing? Well, I appreciate you not addressing the person, Snoooze, and just the whole bunch. But, isn't it kind of like asking your neighbor, "Gee, I don't want to be offensive, but are you one of the people who are short and fat who are thinking of murdering their wife? It says here that there's a statistic which shows a high percentage of short and fat people have that in mind, so I just thought I'd ask all of you people 'collectively,' so I would not seem offensive." 28 Subj: LOL Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Date: -02-15 10:23:15 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Alright RW, you think we're all just a bunch of puny people with Crystals, huh? Well, next time you see a crystal around someone's neck, watch out! (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) Well, Kinda...LOL You didn't know that for years we've been planting a little spray gun inside of them. (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) I knew DAT. Didn't I say I did? 29 Subj: Actually Date: -02-15 10:19:57 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Buddhist New Ager: Actually, I believe you should have said Oklahoma. MAMU No, I think CA is a better guess... Haverhill? Could be MAMU--I don't live in Haverhill... 30 Subj: C'mon Fundamentalist number 4 Date: -02-15 10:38:06 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago "What are the New Agers going to take over the world with? A Crystal?" No, their minds, their higher-selves, silly. Trouble is, you'll stay skeptical, sit back, and let 'em do it! (Fundamentalist number 4) You've got me shakin in my boots! Let me tell you a little joke; There was a man who walked into a bar and there was a man sitting in that bar who came up to the first man and said; Karate, Japan 1941 and he kicked the man in the head. Next day the man goes into the same bar and another guy says; Karate Okinawa, 1968 and kicks the guy in the head again. Well, this went on for a few days until the first man wised up. The next day he went into the same bar and someone approached him and said; Karate; China 1964 and the man went into his pocket and pulled out a .44 magnum and promptly responded; Smith & Wesson, 19; BOOM! So much for the Karate chump. Do you get the moral of that story? I would probably laugh if someone ever threatened me with their "higher self" and then I would shoot them in the "lower abdomen"... If you don't yet believe in mind-power, then you need to visit Washington D.C. for about a week, and follow some head government officials around to Jean Houston "Practical Policy Alternatives" workshops. Then, you need to visit a few major corporations and see just how many copies of "Think & Grow Rich" newsletters and books you can find lying around (nearly half-a- million corporate subscribers). (Fundamentalist number 4) I know all about that stuff and it is meaningless. The problems in this country stem from a liberal supreme court and the control of liberals in the congress. New Freedom liberal ideology has even gotten to many executives. This probably explains why they're losing so much money. But they'll all soon wake up when they start looking at their bottom line. The supreme court has changed and so has the tide of the government. This new age silliness, is just that--silliness. It has been going on for ages and ages and fools have bought into it for ages and ages and always will. If you look at it carefully, you see it represents a complete rejection of Judeo-Christian and bedrock American values." (Fundamentalist number 4) So is santanism. I know much more about the New Age movement that you might think. It is simply another attempt by pagans, (that they have made throughout history) to unsurp, as you say, the Judeo Christian values in this society. It never had any success in the past and it won't now. What you need to be worried about is the humanists who have infiltrated our school system and our governmental institutions. THAT is where the major threat to liberty and our values come from. And, there are many of us fighting that process while we speak. The country is coming right back where it belongs. 31 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 - Witch Hunts Date: -02-15 11:24:41 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago On this continent, and in England, people were sentenced to death in, of all things, *courts*, and the mass hysteria was very much like what you are participating in, Fundamentalist number 4. You mentioned to RightWing4 that "New Agers" were doing things with their minds. Isn't that what the Witches in England and New England were supposed to be doing, gaining some *power over* people? Admitedly, *some* were into some of what witchcraft was about, but as history shows, the majority who were sentenced to hang didn't even know what witchcraft was. The whole thing had many people going along with it, and it was generated by the type of irrational fear you are taking part in attempting to generate, wittingly or unwittingly. As long as there is a voice in me, I will not be silent in the face of a repeat anything like that! In a scenario with people of the mentality who find all these "mind powers" threatening, given the power that the judges had in New England, poor loving, innocent, Snoooze would be hung. Snoooze had absolutely no idea what you were writing about, as he expressed in a recent post. He's, admitedly, read little of New Age material. Yet, with the "New Age" folder title, he'd be branded, just as people in New England, supposedly of the devil, benevolent healers, people with awareness and love in their hearts, were hung. The world is progressing, as enlightenment and love prevail, and here we have Fundamentalist number 4, wittingly or unwittingly, taking part in an attempt to drag people back hundreds of years to the Witch Hunts! 32 Subj: power of the higher self Date: -02-15 12:21:06 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I think ? and Fundamentlist number 4 ought to read up on memes. 33 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 Date: -02-15 12:25:57 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago you say: "If not, please tell me whose views you would respect:" Robert Anton Wilson, IMHO, is the best spokesman for the New Age, and his persistant refusal to be counted a spokesman for anyone except himself is one of his major qualifications. Read Quantum Psychology, tell us what you think. 34 Subj: New Age Power Date: -02-15 13:17:42 EST From: Wiccan 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago New Age Power relates to many different segments of a personality. Those who choose not not participate in the movement have their rights, along with those of us who do have the right to participate in the movement without judgement from all the do-gooders who want to "save us from ourselves". Who are you to judge my actions of what I feel is appropriate for myself? Doesn't you own holy book say not to judge others? I have chosen to live my life without the stigma of "original sin", I have chosen to worship a female diety who is transcendent and gives me to power I need to live a richer and fuller life. If this is New Age then it will only allow each of us to grow into our full potential. We should have more of it. I have outgrown having to look to others for answers when the answer is within myself if I will be silent and allow it to surface. I have grown emotionally and spiritually, letting go of insecurities and therefore allowing myself to do thingsI never thought were possible. It has made not only me, but many other women a more productive part of society. This I feel is part of the problem of the so called "New Age" movement. It is not so much that others are afraid of what has been issued earlier in this post--it is because of their fear of losing control to many of the women of the world who have received this new found power. These are the same people who cast doubts on the Anita Hills, who won't support a woman governor, and who won't even take communion from a woman in his own church--a person so insecure within himself that he lives in fear--and that same fear refuses to let him live. I have chosen not to participate in a religion which has persecuted as many as 9 million men, women, and children during the witchcraft scare of the Middle Ages, and 6 million Jewish people or in a religion that has interpreted "dominion over the earth" to mean total ecological distruction, and "dominion over woman" to mean abuse and the putdowns of the last 2000 years. These are only my feelings, and perhaps the feelings of many more women out there. If you think this is a major take-over, it is your own fear which makes it so. Perhaps you should do a little research on the Neolithic cultures of northern Europe. Yep--for me, give me that real old time religion. 35 Subj: I know a few New Agers... Date: -02-15 13:29:37 EST From: Non-fundie Christian number 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago ...and I don't think they're going to be taking over the world with "love" anytime soon. They're just as petty and selfish as the rest of us. ned and his red socks 36 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4's "Miracle Worker" -- 1 Date: -02-15 15:04:36 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago PART 1 of 2 PARTS: ...great 'miracle worker' steps onto the scene who is seemingly able to perfectly predict future events, heal and cause to prosper those who 'believe', manipulate minds by telepathy, and create 'reality' by converting thought energy into matter. No one will give a flip who the current CEO of planet earth is. He can rot at his UN desk while the rest of us worship this 'obvious' Messiah, right? Do you really not subscribe to this dream? (Fundamentalist number 4 to Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) Not only don't I have a welcome dream about a person like that, but I'm warning people about him, and calling him the "anti-Christ." I'm not the only "New Ager" doing that, either. "...Jupiter is in Leo from August of 1990 to September of 1991. Is this the period when the Anti-Christ will be taking power? ...this is when he is beginning the realization of his ambition. This is when he is able to start his political career, so to speak. He will start on a so-called 'local' level, that is, within his own country. From there he will just keep growing and becoming more greedy." (from post # 1 of "Nostradamus Prophecies" folder, quoting from *Conversations With Nostradamus*, VOL I, by Dolores Cannon, SCREEN NAME: "Cannon 754") Now I quote from pages 95-97 of Volume II: "This force [of the anti-Christ] is much more powerful than you can believe for it is the culmination of all the negativity the earth has collected since its beginning." Page 127: "...instructing the young man [anti-Christ] in mind techniques." "[teacher of the anti-Christ] is one of the most talented psychics that has ever existed." Page 136: "[anti-Christ] will have wondrous inventions that he will market and use to help people." "He [anti-Christ] will make advances in computers, hydrophonic gardening, and in farming intensively to help alleviate hunger in the starving nations. He will appear with these helpful inventions... He will be quite innovative and that is how he will rise to power." "He'll [anti-Christ] appear to be a spiritual leader, but not in the conventional religious sense." "...coalition of other men that will be of service to him [anti- Christ], and that he will mesmerize 37 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4's "Miracle Worker" -- 2 Date: -02-15 15:08:58 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago PART 2 OF 2 PARTS: Page 137: "He [anti-Christ] will be seen as a strong humanitarian, who is trying to help the afflicted, the poor, and the sick. He will really help a lot, but he has other plans." "When all the world acclaims him as saviour, or as a peace-server within the world, there will be a vocal minority who will say, "Hey this is HIM, this is the anti-Christ." They will recognize him and finally mushroom into an underground network that will help advance the cause of truth, rather than the man of deception and lies. Thus, information of this nature will be of assistance, because it will help in the resistance." ============================================ Now, Fundamentalist number 4, about the miracle worker, are "New Agers" really dreaming of him, waiting for him in eager anticipation, ready to follow him? Say, do you know how much a part of the New Age the above is? Well, Dolores Cannon was on Japaneese TV, shown throughout Japan in an interview about the contents of the book. She's due to be on PBS also. She gave a lecture at the "Whole Life Expo" in Los Angeles. If anything is representative of what the New Age is about, it's the Whole Life Expo. (Contact screen Dolores Cannon in Huntsville, AR for further information.) If "New Agers," even some powerful secret part of them, were looking for someone even remotely like what you describe, wouldn't they guard against referring to anything slightly negative about him, to prevent his being discovered? If there was some conspiracy to allow this figure to have power in the world, and it was "New Age" wouldn't some of that economic and political power you attribute to the New Age Movement, block publications and publicity such as this? Fundamentalist number 4, have you ever thought that New Agers might be on your side? Do you wonder if we have the same goals, the same forces in the world to guard against? I don't mean your side with all the fear you're showing (which often breeds hate). Why not get your head out of hate books, and start loving, trusting, and seeing some light? It's wonderful to be a Christian. But really, is this stuff you're being duped into, is that what Christ was teaching? Come on, now 38 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 Gets Tolerant Date: -02-15 23:49:22 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago So, this paranoia you're attempting to spread with a "New Age Plot?" title is a whole different issue than "tolerance" of other's views. (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) It is NOT a different issue. If you found disturbing evidence that there might be a "Christianity Plot" in the works to ultimately 'weed out' New Agers, wouldn't you call that *extreme* intolerance of your views? This is the only point that I am trying to make in the above statement. Before you all started fighting amongst yourselves over in the New Age folder, I read a great deal about how accepting you are (New Agers collectively) of other religions, including Christianity, so long as they don't try to force their beliefs on others; kind of an "I'm OK, You're OK" attitude. In saying that "I appreciate YOUR [New Ager 1] tolerant views" I was not implying that you (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) were, on the other hand, *intolerant*. I was pointing the finger at those New Agers whom I had quoted earlier (Spangler, Davis, Alder, Price, etc.). This folder is simply intended to make others aware that not all New Agers appear to be receiving guidance from your particular non-aggresive circle of Masters. If you read an article about Christians wanting to take over the world and kill New Agers in a newspaper, wouldn't you write a somewhat intolerant letter to the editor, so it would, hoefully, be read in the newspaper? (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) No doubt the journalist behind the writing of such an article would have done his/her homework and included scripture verses pointing out how this movement is surely in direct conflict with God's commandments (as it is accepted by Christians collectively). However, New Agers, collectively, subscribe to no such sacred scripture or doctrine of accountability. This is why I have no idea what think about your motives as a group, especially when no small collection of authors and influencial persons labeling themselves New Agers have been bold enough to print statements like those previously posted. . . . aren't some people, who say New Agers are such a threat, looking to get some mob psychology going, here? Do the people who write this nonsense have some hidden agenda? (Dan Kettler (CIS ID 72711.707)) As for 'mob psychology', no, I don't think so. Once again, any paranoia that seems to be surfacing is due to the inconsistant views of New Agers collectively. All New Agers appear to have spiritual inclinations. Unfortunately, they don't all appear to be influenced by the same council of 'loving' Masters who can be expected to follow any particular set creed. Much has been done throughout history in the name of 'love' and 'for the sake of mankind' (you mentioned Hitler) by people who were accountable only to themselves. It's a dangerous place to be - coming up with your own truths, values, and realities - accountable to no one. As far as a 'hidden agenda', no, our agenda is in written, historic form for all to see, in 66 concise little books that nearly everyone has a copy of. Your (New Agers collectively) agenda changes from one experiment to the next, from one book to the next, from one person to the next, from one 'Whole Life Expo' to the next. If you wish to count yourself among a group of people who have no specific published beliefs and yet gather together regularly in 'circles' to receive direction from some otherwise unapproachable source, then you must accept the fact that there are going to be those who become a little restless. I'm sure that most people who attend church must find this to be a gross distortion of what Christianity is about. (Dan Kettler (CIS ID 72711.707)) No, on the contrary, if Christians would stop believing everything they hear from the pulpit and start reading their Bibles again, they'd start getting paranoid about even going to church. Their pastors are becoming New Age, too! 39 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 Gets Real Date: -02-15 23:51:05 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Do you expect silence in the face of this absurdity? Do you expect me to go lightly with this nonsense? Come on! Get real! (Dan Kettler (CIS ID 72711.707)) No, I expect you to do exactly what you're doing. And now that you have convinced me that you have no personal plans for aggression, can we work together in trying to determine just where these other New Age "outsiders" that I quoted are headed, and just what political and religious influence they might have? For all I know, you may have more information on them than I do. If you don't want to call them "New Age", then fine. But they certainly refer to themselves as such. You take the views of some about there being no mistakes, and turn that into a probability of murdering Christians. Where is the logic here? (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) I'll tell you where it is. Modern Psychology today has adapted this code of 'no mistakes - only learning experiences'. They present it in this format, "You have the right to make mistakes!" This is considered healthy psychology, but I see it desensitizing people to immorality. Spouses consider affairs learning experiences. Business men consider deceptive marketing learning experiences. Politicians consider outright kies, learning experiences. Yes, why couldn't it come down to dismissing murder as a learning experience for the sake of purifying some 'Superbeing' race? Isn't it kind of like asking your neighbor, "Gee, I don't want to be offensive, but are you . . . one of the short fat people thinking of killing your wife? . . . statistics show . . . I thought I'd ask collectively . . . so I would not seem offensive." (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) Yeah, that's exactly right! I don't wish to offend you, because apparently you and Snoooze are neither one of the ones to whom my 'paranoia' should be directed. What's wrong with using a little tact and being unoffensive? Witch Hunt? No, I don't care to exterminate anybody either. I simply want others to be aware of possible hidden motives behind some seemingly benevolent surface propaganda. Spangler and Price have a right to their views, too, even if they include racism. I simply want others to be aware of these views . . . you included. 40 Subj: Buddhist New Ager Date: -02-15 23:55:06 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Tell me where I'm likely to find "Quantum Psychology". I'd love to oblige. Looked for it today at 'Waldenbooks' - no luck. 41 Subj: Rightwing - meaningless? Date: -02-16 00:00:06 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I like your story, but what if that last person that said, "Karate, China, 1964", turned out to be Uri Geller, and at just the right moment (somewhere between you pulling the trigger and the bullet hitting him in the lower abdomen), he bent the shaft of the .44 magnum and you ended up shooting yourself in the head? I know much more about the New Age movement than you might think . . . It never had any success in the past and it won't now. (right wing) No, it wouldn't surprise me if you know a great deal more about the movement than I do, I just don't agree with your conclusions ("it is meaningless"). However, I hope your conclusions ARE the ones that are correct. As far as humanism in the schools goes, it appears to me that New Agers AND humanists are working together to reform education according to principles based on the divinity of man. I really don't see much difference in the 'hoped for' results. And if you read the works of such New Age author/activists as Lee Anderson ("School and Citizenship in a Global Age"), Michael R. Simonson ("Global Awareness: A Curriculum Plan for World Study"), James Becker ("Schooling for a Global Age"), Wendell Bell ("Learning for Tomorrow"), Nancy Stephan ("Welcome to Earth: Culture Study Handbook for Elementary Schools"), Harold & June Shane ("Educating the Youngest for Tomorrow"), Richard Gross ("Social Studies for Our Times"), Dick Sutphen ("Infiltrating the New Age into Society"), Robert Muller ("New Genesis: Shaping A Global Spirituality"), Dane Rudhyar ("Occult Preparations for a New Age"), Alice Bailey ("Initiation: Human and Solar"), and Gay Hendricks & Thom Roberts ("The Second Centering Book: More Awareness Activities for Children, Parents, and Teachers"), I think you'll see what I mean, or at least see that it's hardly "meaningless". 42 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 - tolerance - witches Date: -02-16 00:08:37 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago If you found disturbing evidence that there might be a "Christianity Plot" in the works to ultimately 'weed out' New Agers, wouldn't you call that *extreme* intolerance of your views? (Fundamentalist number 4) Yes, but what I've been saying, is that when it comes to tolerance, this thing that you're coming up with warrants somewhat of an intolerant attitude on my part. And, certainly, if you find "evidence" I would not expect you to be tolerant. I understand your fears. I expect you to investigate it, question it, carefully. The hypothetical "Christian Plot" you mention is not something I have evidence of, but if these people have such grave fears of being exterminated, isn't it just the next step to be sure that their fears are not realized, to do it first? Isn't that what history shows us, not necessarily about Christians, but about people in general? I see you as someone who has fears, and is not really a major party to what you're unwittingly following. However, beyond your individual life, politics plays an important part in fundamentalist circles. It's understood that you, as an individual, would not go beyond the limits of your ethics. However, there's a lot of political power gained through certain fundamentalist groups. And, if they have these fears about so-called New Age plots, I sometimes wonder what they'd do, as you say, to "weed out" New Age people. All people who are "Christians" in name, do not necessarily subscribe to the ethics attributable to Christianity. It was in the *name* of Christ that so-called Witches were hung on this continent, just hundreds of years ago. 43 Subj: New Age Pastors Date: -02-16 00:22:19 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago ...if Christians would stop believing everything they hear from the pulpit and start reading their Bibles again, they'd start getting paranoid about even going to church. Their pastors are becoming New Age, too! (Fundamentalist number 4) Relax, please! Don't worry about it, for God Sake. This isn't a threat. No one, no group, nothing is going to threaten you or your Christianity, your beliefs, or anything. The only enemy you have is your own fears. Yes, stop believing everything they hear from the pulpit. I go along with that. Don't believe what they hear of any New Age material. I believe that also. Take a journey within, deep down inside, shut out the noise, and listen. Don't read. Don't listen to your own thoughts. Just listen. Try it sometime. Maybe go in the woods somewhere by yourself, and sit down on a rock. Listen to love, dwell on spiritual love, and see if you feel and hear something deep inside. Take it from there. Take your Bible and look at it carefully. Try weeding out what people told you it means. Don't listen to me. I'm not going to tell you meanings. Just, with a still small voice within, find out some hidden meanings you'd never heard of before. 44 Subj: New Age Morality Date: -02-16 00:32:58 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Spouses consider affairs learning experiences. Business men consider deceptive marketing learning experiences. Politicians consider outright kies, learning experiences. (Fundamentalist number 4) If you look at my "New Age" writing that attempts to define "New Age," and you'll see reference to Tom Peters, author of *In Search of Excellence*. He says the Golden Rule makes more money, and that's not about deceptive marketing. No, the New Age people I've known don't consider affairs *just* learning experiences. This is a passing thing, about politicians. There's a trend toward honesty, but it's not easily seen yet. 45 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 - we can work together Date: -02-16 00:40:10 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago ...can we work together in trying to determine just where these other New Age "outsiders" that I quoted are headed, and just what political and religious influence they might have? (Fundamentalist number 4) Yes, I'll be glad to help with that. It will be an education for me. I'll tell you what I can about any group I know of. You tell me what you know, and we'll discuss it in e-mail. We can summarize here in the folder. 46 Subj: Quantum Psychology Date: -02-16 01:25:46 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago by Robert Anton Wilson, is published by Falcon Press, Arizona and might be found in new age bookstores, possibly libertarian ones, possibly philosophical/science fiction stores. I wouldn't think it would be in waldenbooks or others of that sort. My favorite source for hard to locate books in print is New World Books, 2 Cains Road, Suffern, NY. They offer usually a 30% discount and are fairly quick. It is the cheapest place I know for dictionaries, reference books, etc. 47 Subj: right winger Date: -02-16 03:32:12 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Hey, did you notice Democratic candidate hopeful Jerry Brown's big shnozz on the cover of Science of Mind magazine this month? I know . . . it's meaningless. 48 Subj: Fears? Date: -02-16 03:53:54 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594), you misinterpret my emotions. I am not afraid to die. I know all too well what the world is coming to (concerning the antichrist) as well as you. It won't matter a great deal what conclusions we come to in this folder except for those who happen to become a part of it. I am at peace with my destiny. I know my calling. And that calling is revealed in songs I write that are heard around the world. I will not be surprised if, when such a 'plot' against the 'resistance' comes to fruition and I am still alive and kicking, I will be among the first to be weeded out. But because I love my children and others and desire that they not lose their inheritance (salvation), I am concerned about the infiltration of a new value system that I see already influencing their lives. If you want to know what I'm referring to, read Matthew 24:3-31. If you want to know my fears, read Matthew 10:28. I'll get back to you on some of your other posts in a bit. 49 Subj: Quantum Psychology Date: -02-16 03:55:01 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Thanks, Buddhist New Ager. I'll check further. 50 Subj: Uri Geller? Date: -02-16 07:09:14 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I like your story, but what if that last person that said, "Karate, China, 1964", turned out to be Uri Geller, and at just the right moment (somewhere between you pulling the trigger and the bullet hitting him in the lower abdomen), he bent the shaft of the .44 magnum and you ended up shooting yourself in the head? (Fundamentalist number 4) hehehe...Understand Fundamentalist number 4 -- I am not making fun. But the day that Uri Geller can bend the shaft of a .44 is the day that I become a liberal. The man has been shown up as a phony time and time again. And I might add that a couple of years back, a man named James Randi, challenged any spoon bender, or any type of psychic anywhere to put forth some proof of *any* psychic ability and not one was able to. He has a standing offer of 10,000 to anyone who can prove any type of psychic ability and that money has never been safer. NATURALLY all the psychics claim that it is the "BAD VIBES" of Randi which temporarily curtail their abilities. But if that's the case, what kind of "VIBES" do you think I would have pointing a gun at someone's head? Good ones? As far as humanism in the schools goes, it appears to me that New Agers AND humanists are working together to reform education according to principles based on the divinity of man. I really don't see much difference in the 'hoped for' results. (Fundamentalist number 4) Actually they have had much success in the schools and this is directly related to the supreme court decision which removed prayer from the schools. There are two cases in the courts right now; One which will restore prayer in schools and one which is combating humanism being taught as a religion. These problems were cause by a court and a liberal congress Fundamentalist number 4, not any plot. And there was only one man on this earth who could ever perform miracles. He was the son of God. And no, I didn't notice Moonbeam Brown. I have enough of him up here in NH. He's like a gadfly, although I like his flat tax idea. He got it from Jesse Helms. What we need to be worrying about, is not New Age plots, but the fact that medical ethicists are gaining acceptance in a society where an entire class of people, have been termed sub-human, namely the unborn. Who's next? And these people are not new Agers. They are simple tyrants who have been with our society forever and always will be. There was an interesting episode on Star Trek yesterday. (A show which many consider to advocate humanist and new age values) I'm not saying it doesn't in many cases, but yesterday there was an episode which focused on a genetically engineered society, where the gene pool has been purified. They had figured out how to detect disabilities at conception and in order to purify the society, they eliminated the feeble, the weak and the disabled. There's a guy on the enterprise named Gordie, who was blind from birth. He ended up saving their skin. He commented to one of the people from that genetically engineered society that he was working with; "If I was conceived on your world, I would have been ""killed"" as a cell. How does your society justify such things?" No answers came from the person. I bet the abortion lobbies are not going to have many nice things to say about yesterday's Star Trek episode. 51 Subj: New Age Morality-Responsibility Date: -02-16 09:14:54 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago New Agers, in general, are accountable and responsible. The examples you give, such as of unethical business people, are not the norm. There are laws of Karma, just like what you read in the Bible, "as ye sow, so shall ye reap." Almost all New Agers, and in so much New Age written material, this stands out. Many are quite concerned, not only about what repercussions will come about right away, such as the disharmony they will feel inside, and the way that events in life will hurt them. They are concerned about a future life on earth, where, as an example, one has lied to customers about their product, that they will be consumers of goods that they were lied to about in a future life. Generally, the idea prevails, that we are all one here, and what we do to hurt others, is something like hurting one's own body. It's something like "the body of Christ," -- the group of people who are Christians. By the way, I was a fundamentalist long ago, and I went to Bob Jones University, Greenville, SC, the same school Billy Graham attended for a time. Men and Women who are hurtful to their spouse, are often concerned about a future life in which the same person will do the same things to them, that hurt that other person. In fact, *responsibility* often extends even to events that people seemingly have no control over, events that most people would consider one to be a victim of. Even that, on some level, is viewed as one's own responsibility. That rids one of the need to always fight or fear outside events, since they are so much a part of one's self at a very deep level. Resistance is often seen as a way to just bring to oneself what one is resisting. So, love is the answer to that. Fighting, whether a person or circumstance, is just something that makes it worse. This leads to forgiveness, trust in the LOVE (ie: God) of the Universe. 52 Subj: right winger's Contradictions Date: -02-16 15:03:07 EST From: Non-fundie Christian number 2 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I hate to take you to task Right winger but in your post you stated: 53 Subj: Whoops Date: -02-16 15:17:29 EST From: Non-fundie Christian number 2 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Posted the earlier too soon. In any case, right winger you said the following: "And there was only one man on this earth who could ever perform miracles. He was the son of God." (right wing) Recognizing that I make the assumption that you are a "Bible-believing fundamentalist" I charge that you contradict yourself. What of the record in Acts 3:6-8 where Peter healed a crippled beggar? What of the statement in Acts 5:12 which says, "The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people."? What of Mark's contention (Mark 16:17-18) that Jesus said that those who believe would drive out demons, etc.? I can't buy a cafeteria-style theology (of which the fundamentalists are noted for) where you pick and choose. You seem only to embrace the portions which allow you to vent 'righteous indignation' (or hatred) toward an unidentified group of people which (humanists?). I met and spoke with Douglas Veith, the lawyer who tried the Westside High School (Bible study in school) case in Omaha, NE. As a christian, I must honestly reply that I am more concerned about the Rushdooney's and reconstructionist agenda than some supposed New Age Plot or Humanist Manifesto. Humanist infiltration of schools, indeed! Lol. Your response is welcome. 54 Subj: Sturgeon's Law Date: -02-16 15:23:31 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago 90% of science fiction is crap. On the other hand, 90% of everything is crap. Theodore Sturgeon 55 Subj: right winger, let me get this straight Date: -02-16 17:25:31 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago The day that Uri Geller can bend the shaft of a .44 is the day that I become a liberal . . . there was only one man on this earth who could ever perform miracles. He was the son of God. (right winger) I think you're probably just making a point, but let me make sure. Are you saying that the "great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect" described in Matthew 24:24 will be nothing more fantastic than those performed by Geller? Are you setting yourself above the 'elect' in presuming to be uninfluenceable by 'great signs and miracles', or are you coming right out and saying that anyone performing such miracles (any feat that can't be explained by 'cause and effect') has to be the Son of God? Actually they have had much success in the schools . . . These problems were caused by a court and a liberal congress Fundamentalist number 4, not any plot. (right winger) Where do you think the court and liberal congress came from? Sure, congressmen are voted in, but it's money and political support that gets them votes. Have you checked into an organization called the "Lucis Trust?" With just over 6,000 active members, it's not the biggest society in the world, but when you realize that 1) its address, until recently, was 866 United Nations Plaza, 2) it has been placed on the roster of the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations (ECOSOC) to indicate its special consultative status with the United Nations, and 3) its members include Robert McNamara (former Secretary of Defense and head of the World Bank), Donald Regan (former Chief of Staff), Arthur Burns (former chairman of the Federal Reserve Board), Henry Kissinger (former Secretary of State), David Rockefeller (megabanker and head of Chase Manhattan Bank), James Baker III (current Secretary of State), Paul Volcker (former chairman of the Federal Reserve Board), James Schlesinger (former Secretary of Defense), Harold Brown (another former Secretary of Defense), and George Schultz (former Secretary of State), then you realize that they probably don't need to put too much energy into a membership drive. There's enough money and influence here to make Sonny Bono a frontrunner. You probably know where I'm going, but for the sake of everyone else: The Lucis Trust is patently occultic. The words "Lucis" and "Illuminati" basically mean the same thing. The word "lucis" come directly from the name Lucifer, which means "light bearer" or "the one who brings light." Revealingly, when the Lucis Trust began, founded by Alice Bailey, it was called "Lucifer Publishing!" It was incorporated in 12 under its present name. This company is registered in Great Britain, Germany, Holland, and Switzerland. According to its own publications we are told: "The Lucis Trust was incorporated in the United States in 12. It is officially recognized by the federal government and by various state governments as tax exempt. The Lucis Trust . . . is a non-profit world service organization receiving and using monies to promote activities concerned with the establishment of life, human relations, and world cooperation and sharing. The Lucis Trust . . . has bank accounts and financial agents in many countries, including Geneva, Switzerland, where the European headquarters of the work is established. The financial and legal affairs of the Lucis Trust are controlled by an international Board of Trustees, aided by additional trustees and elected officers and members in different countries. Enough men of goodwill working to create the New World Order of brotherhood, cooperation, and life relationship, can defeat the forces of materialism and liberate the sense of shared responsibility for human welfare within the hearts and minds of men." (more) >>>>> 56 Subj: right winger, more >>> Date: -02-16 17:27:07 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago To achieve this goal, the Lucis Trust has established subsidiary organizations which include the Arcane School, the Lucis Publishing Companies, World Goodwill, Triangles, Lucis Trust Libraries, and Radio Lucis. The teachings of the Lucis Trust have been translated into over 50 languages, and the books by Alice Bailey and Dwjhal Khul have been sold in the millions. The Lucis Trust has also published a common prayer, often praised as "the prayer of the New Age," formally called "The Great Invocation." This prayer is printed and sent out in tens of thousands of copies. Some churches, Protestant and Catholic, use it during worship, unaware (I presume) of what it is. From what I can tell, the prayer must be a direct call for Lucis, to come forth from his "Secret Place" and through death and power, establish his kingdom on planet earth. Get a load of this: "Let the Lords of Liberation issue forth, Let the rider from the Secret Place come forth, And coming, save. Come forth, O Mighty One. Let Light and Love and Power and Death, Fulfill the purpose of the coming One. From the centre where the Will of God is known, Let purpose guide the little wills of men, The purpose which the Masters know and serve. Let the Plan of Love and light work out, And may it seal the door where evil dwells. Let Light and Love and Power restore the Plan on Earth." The Lucis Trust also promotes the reappearance of the "Christ, " but not Jesus Christ. As one of their publications states: "'The reappearance of the Christ:' Many religions today expect the coming of an Avatar or Savior. The second coming of Christ, as the World Teacher for the Age of Aquarius, is presented in this book as an imminent event, logical and practical in the community of divine revelation through the ages. The Christ belongs to all mankind; he can be known and understood as the same great identity in all the world religions." Its publications include books like, "Education for a New Age", "World Citizenship", "The Destiny of the Nations", "The Externalization of the Hierarchy", "Initiation, Human and Solar", "Letters on Occult Meditation", "The Reappearance of the Christ", "A Treatise on Cosmic Fire", "Running God's Plan", "The Spirit of Masonry", and "Toward a World Religion for the New Age." Another meaningless bit of trivia? What we need to be worrying about . . . is medical ethicists gaining acceptance . . . society where entire class of people . . . termed sub-human . . . these people are not new agers . . . (right winger But they ARE New Agers! They presume themselves to be God, part of God, or part of a higher race. The only people who will not fall comfortably into the "New Age" are those who maintain a fairly strict fundamentalist belief in the God of the Bible or some other personable 'only' god. I agree with most of your political and ethical positions (from what I've seen in other posts). We just don't seem to be cutting away at the same set of roots . . . or maybe we are and don't know it. 57 Subj: Gee Non-fundie Christian number 2 Date: -02-16 18:21:19 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago So I made a mistake. And NO, I'm not a fundamentalist, I'm Greek Orthodox and I am not up on my religion as I should be. As for your crack about humanism, I'm not going to go through all this here AGAIN. If you're interested, look through the humanist area, or check my other writing: "Indoctrination," which are on the debate area, oddly enough in the politics 19 area "Bush vs. ?." 58 Subj: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) 'antichrist' #1 Date: -02-16 19:00:27 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I am only too glad to learn that we 'may be on the same side' with regards to warning others of the anti-christ. And I would be only too happy to learn that your views are representative of most New Agers. But I am not yet convinced. Now, Fundamentalist number 4, about the miracle worker, are "New Agers" really dreaming of him, waiting for him in eager anticipation, ready to follow him? (Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594)) Apparently so. Examples: The Academy For Future Science, founded by J.J. Hurtag, publishes what they describe as a New Age Bible entitled, "The Book of Knowledge: The Keys of Enoch." In this 'bible', prophetic messages show how the seven seals of the book of Revelation will come to be broken, or unsealed, and how the last days will transpire. In this free paraphrase of Revelation, "the collective spirit of all of those who stick to the 'contaminated,' man-made doctrines of Biblical Christianity" are made out to be the 'true' antichrist while the Beast is proclaimed as the 'true' Savior. The number 666 turns out to be the numerical electronic sequence through which heavenly beings (the Brotherhood of Light) supposedly communicate with men through specific light and sound harmonics by means of a pyramidal focus created over the Third Eye. They just turn scripture around backwards, call it a 'new' revelation, and all is well. Why would anyone believe such crap? Well, for people into UFOs and the like, The Academy for Future Science is closely connected with certain UFO societies and groups. J.J. Hurtag is well-known among UFO authorities and is considered an expert on the subject. It is his claim that in 1973 a spirit-being named Enoch enveloped him with a great wall of light, and both he and Enoch sped upwards into the heavens. There they met up with another being of great majesty called Metatron, the Creator of Light in the universe. This great being coded a divine scroll of light into Hurtag's Third Eye which he later transcribed into the '64 keys of Enoch' which are the prophetic messages re-interpreting Revelation. Hurtag says that his "New Age scriptures" are superior to the Bible and that even more highly advanced revelations are forthcoming. He insists that in the coming era, the Bible will be augmented and supplemented with certain "sacred scriptures" revealed to man by interplanetary messengers. This receiving of new sacred scriptures will occur when the New Age race is ready to move upward to a higher evolutionary plane. Then the lower beings who refuse the New Age doctrines must return to the "primeval earth" and begin the reincarnation process all over again, as the Kingdom of God (A New Age Utopia) is built here on earth. Thus, The Academy of Future Science teaches a doctrine of the "elect:" The elect are the people of "The Plan". 59 Subj: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) 'antichrist' #2 Date: -02-16 19:02:00 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago This is just one of many examples that I'll be happy to expound upon if you would like. Here is a concise list of organizations, religions, and peoples that are anxiously awaiting a New Age Messiah: Rudolf Steiner's "Anthroposophy and the Waldorf Schools", Alice Bailey's "The Arcane School", Sri Aurobindo's "Auroville Community", Baha'u'llah's "Baha'i Faith", Siddhartha Gautama's "Buddhism", Fritz Hull & David Spangler's "Chinook Learning Center", Charles Russell's "Jehovah's Witnesses", Ken Keyes College, Perry Coles' "Lucis Trust", "Meditation Group for the New Age", Manly P. Hall's "Philosophical Research Society", the "University of the Twelve Rays of the Grand Central Sun", Peter Liefhebber's "Share International", Benjamin Creme's "Tara Center", followers of Helena Blavatsky, Rev. Sun Myung Moon's "Unification Church", and "World Goodwill". Now you may not subscribe to the particular teachings of these organizations, but they are none-the-less "New Age" simply because of their theosophical beliefs and their spiritual preparation for this new age. If "New Agers", even some powerful secret part of them, were looking for someone even remotely like what you describe, wouldn't they guard against referring to anything slightly negative about him, to prevent his being discovered? (Dan Kettler (CIS ID 72711.707)) I believe that most people live with the notion that generally, "anything worth having is going to have to be fought for" . . . you know . . . "gonna have to break a few eggs." This is the same reasoning the allies lived with when bombing Iraq. There's no reason to keep it a secret. As long as you're one of the allies, who cares? If there was some conspiracy to allow this figure to have power in the world . . . wouldn't some of that . . . power . . . block publications and publicity such as this? (Dan Kettler (CIS ID 72711.707)) Yes, and I see it already happening. The leader and founder of the New Age "Messianic Church of Yahweh", Randall Baer, was converted to Christianity in 1988 and put together a book called, "Inside the New Age Nightmare." (which, BTW, also talks about the scheme to usher in a New Age Messiah) Shockingly, just days before his book was to be released, he was found dead. The police report states only that his "car veered mysteriously off a 300 foot cliff in Colorado into the rocky valley below." Coincidence, I guess. 60 Subj: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) on Karma Date: -02-16 19:03:20 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Most of the people I have met who are prepared for the New Age know little or nothing about Karma or reincarnation. They are not interested in reading scripture or laws of any kind unless they promise fame or fortune ("Think & Grow Rich," for instance). They believe in themselves and that's about all there is to it. They look out for #1. They abandon all responsibility if necessary in order to 'find their true selves.' Big houses, European cars, dollar signs and good sex is at the top of their agendas. We won't find them browsing through folders such as these. They have 'better' things to do. But when this 'miracle worker' hits the scene, you can bet they'll be right at his feet asking, "What can I do for you?" and "What can you do for me?" When this happens, you (part of the 'resistance') won't be considered "New Aquarian Age," my friend. You'll be considered part of the 'old out-of-vibration' one. ' (#61 NAP) Subj: See ya later! Date: -02-16 19:22:29 EST From: Fundamentalist number 4 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago OK . . . y'all have convinced me. There's no New Age plot. I'm out-a-here! p.s. Buddhist New Ager, I'll still look for Quantum Psychology. If I find it interesting enough, I'll open a new folder under that name. 62 Subj: actually, Fundamentalist number 4, Date: -02-16 20:38:48 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago after reading a few more of your posts, I am of the opinion that just for sheer enjoyment, you would also like Wilson's first book, pubished as a trilogy, a novel called "The Illuminatus" The philosophy is not laid out so clearly as in Quantum Psyc. and the joycean style (wilson is a big fan of joyce) requires a bit of getting used to, but if you can handle it the book is a lot of fun. and though I am convinced it is also educational, I have never been able to pin down exactly what it is trying to say. For me this is a positive feature, others might not feel the same way. 63 Subj: right winger Date: -02-16 21:10:14 EST From: Non-fundie Christian number 2 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago OK, I'd be interested in reading them. 64 Subj: Lucis Trust - Alice Bailey Date: -02-16 21:39:03 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago I'm somewhat familiar with the Alice Bailey Books, and I used to own some until I sold them to a used book store about 10 years ago. They are found in "Metaphysical" or "New Age" book stores, but not the regular one's, and that makes it obvious how well they are selling *at this time*. I sold them because I lost interest. None of the quotes you placed show anything to indicate the accusations you've made about New Age intentions are correct. In any event, most people into New Age ideas never heard of the books, since their sales have spanned over decades, rather than high sales over a short period of time. Also, people don't read such books like fundamentalists read the Bible, taking in every word as if it all had to be followed carefully. If there were any ideas that meant what you say, they'd mostly be glossed over and forgotten. I know that from conversations with readers. The return of the Christ, or the return of Jesus Christ, what does it matter which is referred to, except to fundamentalists who make some meaning out of each and every word, that if "Jesus" was left out, then it couldn't really be *him*. The fact is that there's a great parallel between the teachings of "New Age" people and Christians. Don't Christians teach a future kingdom of heaven on Earth? Most people I knew who read the Bailey Books, and were commenting on Benjamin Creme, were saying that, though Creme (1982) was trying to use the Bailey Books as a basis for his quest for a physical person Christ, the Bailey books were really about a presence of spirit on the earth, not about a person. Even if the Bailey books had something that really indicated this person you mention, the people reading it, that I knew, didn't think so. (By the way, I remember how reporters from the mainstream media were carried on a wild-goose-chase for this "Messiah" of Creme's) I'm not saying there is or is not a physical person "Messiah" coming. I know there's a lot of controversy about it. Most people I know who are into New Age thought don't really have much of an opinion on it anyway. So, all this stuff is irrelevant to what you're saying about a plot. And, I notice that you have a post up showing how many different authors write of a coming Christ. Well, some of them may actually be about a physical person, I don't know. You know, even if it was all on a "New Age" bookshelf in a mainstream bookstore, do you think I'd have time to read them ALL? And, suppose some book or books were selling a lot RECENTLY, and they were specifically about a person in the flesh Christ returning, what would that mean actually, that this hypothetical want's everyone to kill Christians? Does it mean this hypothetical person will take over the world? I told you, take a poll. If you really want to know, send out a questionairre to a random geographical and sex group of 100 or 500 or 1000 people, using the mailing list of Body, Mind Spirit, New Age Journal, and Magical Blend Magazine. Don't ask about whether Jesus Christ is coming back in the flesh or the clouds. Ask about all that stuff you want to know about a plot. Ask what they'd do if some New Age "leader" wanted them to kill Christians? Ask them if they read the "Bailey" books. You know what you'll find? answers like "Say WHAT?!" "Bailey, WHO?" Ask them about a one world government. "One world WHO?" It's not the focus of most of their attention. Most won't know what you're talking about. Ask about "Karma," they DO know about that. In any event, the anti-Christ has not made his power fully known on the Earth yet. The fact that Lucifer was a messenger of light, and other's call themselves messengers of light, is much like the fact that angels and fallen angels are both called angels. If the author of a book, such as the one you're quoting from, is fearful enough, he can read anything into whatever he want's to, and people like you who buy into his fear will just go along. I doubt that the readers of your posts are quite that way, though. 65 Subj: Fundamentalist number 4 Date: -02-17 01:28:02 EST From: Buddhist New Ager Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago The following two quotes of yours seem to me to indicate an internal contradiction in your beliefs about new agers. Why would a group who are so committed to individual responsibility that they cannot agree on how to unite suddenly fall in line behind "The Masters of Wisdom," a group probably never even heard of by most new agers. ========================= quote 1) Would you not obey the Masters of Wisdom if they suggested your help in the extermination of we Christians? quote 2) Do New Agers bow to any collective accountability whatsoever? Isn't 'New Age' to one, something else to another? Are your beliefs not constantly changing, depending upon what is personally the most gratifying? ============================ also, you say: We have printed, accepted doctrine that convicts most of us to live within certain ethical boundaries. We're not experimenting. my response: well, maybe so, but only during times when you have no real political power. whenever you get enough enthusiasm in your adherents you can get pretty awful. it is built into your intolerance for others. It gets real easy for you to justify atrocities against anyone who doesn't follow all the rules of whatever sect happens to get power. The best thing that can be said of new agers is that they, for the most part, haven't been around long enough to have accumulated a history of atrocities. Samuri zen buddhists and kamikazi shintos and islamic "assassins" and a few others illustrate that you have no monopoly on sanctioned killing, but none of these (with the possible exception of now-pacifistic buddhists) could be considered new age. 66 Subj: Buddhist New Ager Date: -02-17 03:05:08 EST From: OBSERVER 1 Placed on a BBS in a cyberspace far away and long ago Agree with Buddhist New Ager about the atrocities, etc.....and that from a christian! 67 Subj: WELL... Date: 92-02-22 16:45:43 EST From: OBSERVER 2 Posted on: America Online I thought I smelled a Bar-be-Que going on in here. Also smells like right winger is the cook, too. HeHeHe.... 68 Subj: NEW AGE Date: 92-02-22 22:18:43 EST From: So-called skeptic number 6 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace New Age? The only conspiracy I am aware of is the one by authors like Cumby and Lindsey to part me from my money. Years ago there was a show on the radio in SFO called "The Absurd Impostors." Jim Coyle and Mal Sharpe [the Impostors] would go around to different businesses and locations in the city wired with hidden microphones and put people on. Kind of like Candid Camera except it was funny. The thing that was always so amazing about this show from the human standpoint was how seemingly intelligent individuals would argue with C & S about why it would be wrong to import germs and sell them as pets [!], or why it would be a bad idea to sell packaged sandwiches with a bite taken out of them at a reduced rate. Day after day C & S would engage business people, educators and you-name-it in serious, impromptu discussions on the streets, and most of these folks would spend as much time as they were allowed to enter in to these utterly absurd dialogues. Ah! That's it! Jim Coyle and Mal Sharpe thought up the New Age movement. If we've learned anything in America, it is that there are plenty of well-intentioned but gullible souls out there who are ready to fall all over themselves to believe ANYTHING, no matter how patently ridiculous. - 69 Subj: ROFL Date: 92-02-23 00:54:47 EST From: Non-fundie Christian number 2 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace ROFL and well spoken. 70 Subj: Debunking New Age Crap Date: 92-02-24 19:12:46 EST From: So-called skeptic number 4 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace I recommend reading the Skeptical Inquirer (Box 229, Buffalo, NY 14215-0229) for those with a trace of common sense who want to understand why New Age claims are hogwash. 71 Subj: *Skeptical Inquirer,* huh? Date: 92-02-26 11:11:55 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace I've been reading about The *Skeptical Inquirer* in a number of folders. I've been curious to see if it was in the stands of major bookstores, such as Walden's and B. Dalton's in the malls, and I wanted to pick up a copy. I've been looking for over 4 months, everytime I browse, and no-one in the store ever heard of it. However, I see *New Age Journal*, *Body Mind and Spirit*, and *Kindred Spirit* often enough even in grocery stores. We all know that when there's a high demand for a publication, it's distribution increases. Evidently the "New Age" readers are higher in number than those who make a religion of so-called skepticism. I say "religion" because, a skeptic is just that: skeptical. A plain, ordinary, skeptical person has no reason to have to read some publication that attempts to prove certain things are not true, nor is there a reason to have to place posts to "prove" untruth. There's a complete description of the so-called "skeptic," that one may read in the area of this cyberspace known as "Scientific American Propaganda. Also, about The *Skeptical Inquirer*, I've never read it, since I'm not willing to subscribe to a whole year of it. However, having read of some of the so-called "information" from it here in "Religious Realms," even a post from someone who contributes to it, I'd say you all ought to get a refund and discontinue your subscription. I've read the latest posts with unfavorable opinions of "New Age" in this folder. First, my only interest in this folder had to do with the matter of showing that there was no "New Age plot," and you so-called "skeptics" helped me with that very well, so I must thank you. I disagreed with some examples about *why* you felt it could not be a plot, but your point was the same as mine, that there is no plot. Having thanked you all, my second point is that I have no interest in attempting to *prove* the validity of "New Age" thought or phenomena. No-one can prove anything to people who's minds are made up, though a *true* skeptic can see its validity on his or her own. You, and anyone reading and agreeing, can go on thinking it's "hogwash," or "crap." 72 Subj: Skeptical Inquirer Date: 92-02-26 18:10:29 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace The Skeptical Inquirer, is simply another dogmatic journal similar to the New Age journals, the only difference being that the Skeptic's dogmatism is rooted in the fanatic belief of disbelief, as opposed to fanatic belief. Atheists can be just as dogmatic as New Agers and crusading atheists are the worst. They can be more annoying than New Agers, and even more annoying than lost souls from Atlantis, who have been reincarnated into left wing hippies. hehee 73 Subj: Atlantis Date: 92-02-26 21:14:18 EST From: New Ager 7 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace dont make fun of my home country Atlantis 74 Subj: Nothing can be worse than...... Date: 92-02-27 03:58:19 EST From: free writer Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace But nothing can be worse than marauding Right Wingers (the Christian Right). See my post in the Fundamentalist Plot area 75 Subj: New Ager 7 Date: 92-02-27 13:50:46 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace I meant to make fun of Lemuria. 76 Subj: Lemuria Date: 92-02-27 22:08:38 EST From: New ager 2 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace dont make fun of MY home country of Lemuria 77 Subj: Oh Man! Date: 92-02-28 05:37:13 EST From: RightWing4 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace This is getting crazy--It's getting so that a man can't make fun of anything anymore! :) How about the third plane of the planet Mars? If someone tells me that's their home town, I'm calling them a doctor in a white suit! 78 Subj: HEY, HEY, HEY!!! Date: 92-02-28 22:19:14 EST From: OBSERVER 2 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace Come on right winger, Mars is my home town. Pick on the Venusians! ;) 79 Subj: Wish to know more about New age. Date: 92-02-29 14:54:07 EST From: Baha'i faith person Posted on: A part of the Cyberspace I wish to know more about this New Age. I could say that as a Baha'i I feel that the New Age is 148 years old. Much of the New Age movement appeals to the Baha'i community as it relates to our faith. There is a desire to see a World Government and love between all the great Faiths of the world. Christians are not the only ones who find this a threat to there existence as Islam is even more willing to use force to keep their followers in line. The world is going to change and movements will come and go the true test of any religion is will it also grow or will it drop out of favor. Jesus cae to give the world the message of LOVE. If Christians were really the people they say they are then their would not be any need for New Age ideas as the world after 2000 years would be a safe and happy place to live in. Lets look at the real world and see why we do not have this. Unity of mankind is the key and thats why LOVE is still a hard thing to come by. Until we worry about the world as a place that God gave us to live in as our home in this life how can God expect us to live in heaven. Would you give a person a Mansion after he trashed his apartment? 80 Subj: Semantics of New Age terminology Date: 92-03-01 21:23:41 EST From: New Ager 3 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace While I understand that the true motivation of most respondents who list here is truth seeking, I feel that some of the semantical terminology of the New Age tends to confuse people through a misunderstanding or an ambiguity of the terms' meanings. The New Age, as defined by Edgar Cayce (the most renowned psychic of the last 100 years whose basic claim to fame was his healing of people while he was asleep in a trance state) was simply the dawning of a new era where people would tend to become more aware of their relationships to one another and to the Creator. Cayce died in 1948, but the Association for Research and Enlightenment founded by him survives with 75,000 members in Va. Beach, Va. He was effectuating what we call channneling today, through his source, who gave the medical information which helped the Doctors treating many terminally ill patients treat them to successful recoveries. Cayce was a devout Christian and Sunday School teacher when awake. When asleep, besides healing, he explained reincarnation, he prophesied, he read auras, and helped people understand both God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. His sleeping Christianity not only concurred with his awake Christianity, but his explanations of reincarnation were not inconsistent with regular word for word Bible Christianity. For those who are truly seeking the truth and questioning my motives, I had an NDE in 1976 which woke me up. I began to search and learn. Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) has come closer in these epistles to espousing an open, non controversial explanation of the New Age than anyone I have read here on AOL before. The New Age is about an increasing spirituality and greater vibrations as a result. Spirituality is coming to a better understanding of the Creator, or God, and your relationship with Him. Jesus Christ can be your guide, or your Saviour (subject to the depths of your beliefs), as can Moses, Mohammed, or any other spiritual figure be. The New Age isn't a doctrine, its an awareness of yourself and others and the Creative forces going on now, and relationships relative to those persons. Cayce explained that Karma could be suspended by degrees by Grace through faith, ethics, humane treatment of others. Love in another words. I would like to add to Nos and Cayce that salvation on Earth now is also one of the rewards, as one begins to become relieved of cognitive disssonance when one helps others. That may be the Peace that Jesus Christ promised. However, my conclusions came through enlightenment and study and practice, not doctrine. One has to work to evolve. What evolves is one's peace and contentment. Imagine being free from jealousy, envy, fear of dying, fear of all sorts, ego trips and all other negative emotions. That requires a basic belief structure which includes God, and mucho faith which develops if one asks for the development. Guess who you ask? #81 Subj: New Age, hither and tither... Date: 92-03-03 00:55:45 EST From: OBSERVER 2 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace To ride the wild waves of uncertantity and sail the seas of restlessness, never to set foot on solid ground, never to rest by the roots of shady oaks, only to wander from now to eternity. Look here, look there. "Over here", the voices would say; "No", others would say," over here". Is there anywhere that I may call "here". This is what occurs with the adherents of the New Age philosophy. When a current idea has lost its flavor then begins a frantic search for something, anything that may satisfy the hunger that exists in the adherents soul. The reason they do this is because they refuse to believe that a sentient God exists, or to accept the fact that they, like the rest of humanity, are sinners. No amount of mantra chanting, no amount of positive thinking, and no amount of becoming one with all will satisfy the need for forgiveness. 82 Subj: Half of my two cents Date: 92-03-06 20:34:23 EST From: New Ager 4 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace Hello, folks. Fundamentalist number 4, when you listed groups waiting for the appearance of a Great Being, you left out Christians. The complaint you made about not being able to pin down a consistent doctrine from New Age spokespeople sounds exactly like the complaint of Irenaeus or Hippolytus about the Gnostics. Sorry not to be exact; all my books burned up a year ago. But, like Zen teachers, the teachings of these people, unless they fall into the same trap of literalism as most monotheists, are mythopoetic expressions tailored to their particular audience, derived from their personal experience. To really understand Zen, Gnostic, or the best of the New Age teachings, you have to have the same internal experience. Personally, I have no taste for "revelations" or channeling. Anybody can say anything. Though I'm not denying the possibility of spiritual communication, anything not verifiable by personal experience or logic should not be given much faith. This goes for the Bible as well. We all know people are capable of both lying and self-delusion. Even if a revelation truly comes from a spirit, how do we know it's telling the truth? Jesus uttered a great touchstone when he said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." Some channeled material is very interesting, but if it takes time away from actual work on one's own life, it's worse than useless. Right winger, a .44 is a very effective tool for terminating a relationship, but it does little for altering an opponent's attitudes in a socially benevolent way. Buddhist New Ager's comment, "with the possible exception of now-pacifistic buddhists," implies that Buddhists have recently converted to pacifism. Actually Buddhists have been pacifist from the start and have had a much better track record than Christianity, another originally pacifist religion. By the way, have you asked any Buddhists if they consider themselves New Agers? That there is a New Age is undeniable. Unprecedented changes are everywhere you look. The meaning of these things is arguable, as you all demonstrate in this folder. The New Age movement, as such, has relationships and friendships with just about every religion with non-exclusive, non-literalist attitudes. But there ARE important differences. Don't be too quick to lump. The tone of these interchanges is much too serious. All this personal passion beclouds your communication. I suspect that all of you, with the exception of Wiccan 1, are men. Of all of you, though I wouldn't mind meeting any of you, I would most prefer Wiccan 1's company. Let's not forget that a common aspect of Christianity and the New Age is a softening of the heart to each other. Right On, Baha'i and New Ager 3! By the way, how many Sufis does it take to change a lightbulb? ---New Ager 4 83 Subj: Perhaps, but you forget New Ager 4 Date: 92-03-07 15:40:49 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace Right winger, a .44 is a very effective tool for terminating a relationship, but it does little for altering an opponent's attitudes in a socially benevolent way. (New Ager 4) But by that time, the need to worry about an attitude has disappeared along with the relationship. As for "social benevolence" that was Stalin's excuse for enslaving people. I have little use for "social benevolence." 84 Subj: Right winger's Benevolence Date: 92-03-08 07:48:20 EST From: New Ager 5 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace As for "social benevolence" that was Stalin's excuse for enslaving people. I have little use for "social benevolence."<--Right winger What do you mean by social benevolence, Right winger. A little more clarity would be appreciated. New Ager 5 85 Subj: Social Benevolence Date: 92-03-08 08:58:05 EST From: New Ager 4 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace RW, you disown Stalin's "excuse," but not his methodology. You can't say you wouldn't benefit from a society where everyone is free to go about their business to the best of their abilities, without constraint from either politicians or criminals (if there's a real distinction). THAT's a socially benevolent attitude. 86 Subj: Social benevolence Date: 92-03-08 11:42:17 EST From: right winger Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace What do you mean by social benevolence, Right winger. A little more clarity would be appreciated. (New Ager 5) Ant time a tyrant gets on his high horse and tells people that what he is about to do is for "The Good of the People" is when the chains come out. You can't say you wouldn't benefit from a society where everyone is free to go about their business to the best of their abilities, without constraint from either politicians or criminals (if there's a real distinction). THAT's a socially benevolent attitude. (New Ager 4) The above is not social benevolence, the abve is called freedom. Tell me what happens if in your above society, the best ability a person has is to go about sitting on their butts all day? Will you steal from someone to support them, or will you let nature take it's course? 87 Subj: hogwash Date: 92-03-08 21:39:41 EST From: New Ager 6 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace IN answer to So-called skeptic number 4 -- that New Age claims are "hogwash"--I do not know if you subscribe to belief in the Bible, but a passage that comforts me and my freinds who have New Age beliefs is the folowing: 88 Subj: hogwash, cont. Date: 92-03-08 22:02:14 EST From: New Ager 6 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace sorry--i seem to hit that tab before I'm ready.. "For the material man rejects spriritual things;they are foolishness to him; neither *can he know them*, because they are spiritually discerned. But the spiritual man discerns everything and yet no man can discern him." 1 Corinthians 2:12-15 Someday you,too, may have an experience that goes beyond the limited perceptions of your 5 senses and you will discover the untapped potential within. For example, the electomagnetic spectrum spans form low frequency brain waves (4 c.p.s) to very high frequency cosmic rays, encompassing radio waves, x-rays, infrared, etc. We percieve a very narrow band of this spectrum of frequencies through the organs of sight and hearing, Just because we don't hear or see them does not negate the existence of these other energies. You can't see or hear radio waves until they are intercepted by a tuning device. For those who function from a limited view of reality, I suggest you read one of the layman's books on the New Physics such as THE DANCING WU-LI MASTERS, or BEYOND THE QUANTUM. Respected physicists are saying such things as: there are other dimensions, at the quantum level separation is an illusion,the subatomic world exists only as one of probabilites, there is instantaneous action at a distance, concioussness is not bound by the limits of time or space, and many other things that mysticism has been claiming for years. Read the scientific evidence before you judge. 89 Subj: your tax $ for hogwash Date: 03-08 22:14:20 EST From: New Ager 6 Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace By the way, the govt. has been exploring such "hogwash" as remote viewing for years, for military purposes, of course. For documentation, see OUT THERE, by Howard Blum. During the 1980's they also spent millions on other parapsychological research such as advanced states of conciousness for their marksman and hemisync technology (uniting the R and L brains through sound)., not to mention UFO research. The Russians have historically been way ahead in researching these areas, from what I understand. By the way, I myself have taken The Monroe Institutes courses on hemisync and found them very effective and mind expanding. 90 Subj: Humanism is not "New Age." Date: 03-18 13:11:32 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace The following is from "Cult Awareness Book" placed in the LIBRARY February 26, by a boss man on this BBS. To date, 17 people have downloaded it: ================================================================= Here are a couple of quotes found in a book called "Gods of the New Age" by Caryl Matrisciana. These quotes are from some people who are at the fore-front of The New Age Movement, or are indoctrinated to the teachings ascribed to them. At a seminar on childhood education in 1973, Dr. Pierce, a Professor of Education and Psychiatry at Harvard University, made this statement, which was reaffirmed in a phone conversation in March 1983: "Every child in America entering school at the age of five is mentally ill, because he comes to school with certain allegiances toward our founding fathers, toward our elected officials, toward his parents, toward a belief in a supernatural Being, toward the sovereignty of his nation as a separate entity. It's up to you teachers to make all of these sick children well by creating the international children of the future." New Age proponents are placing some remarkable responsibilities upon our teachers. In an article titled "A Religion for a New Age", published in The Humanist, Jan./Feb. 1983, page 26, we find these words: "...the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their roles as the proselytizers of a new faith... The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new - the rotting corpse of Christianity...and the new faith of Humanism. The goal? Divide and conquer. The parents are discredited. Their "out-of-date Judeo-Christian belief system" is ripped to shreds behind their backs. And just as covertly, the doctrines of humanism and Eastern mysticism are taught - without apology or explanation. As Christians, it is up to us to make people aware of the subtle attack that is being waged against our young people. Do you have children in public schools? Are you up on what is being taught to them? One of the main thrusts of the New Agers is to cause divisions in the family structure so that they will be able to teach them a new mind-set... ================================================================= END OF QUOTE ================================================================= The above is not a description of the "New Age" movement. It is about Atheists and Humanists. Every "New Ager" I've met or read is neither a Humanist or an Atheist. Not all follow some faith, and certainly none follow the "faith" mentioned above, to be "proselytizers" of. Because a person uses the words "New Age," that does not mean they fit the commonly accepted definitions of "New Age." For further definition, see the what I've written of the New Age. Much writing of Edgar Cayce shows him to be a devout Christian. 91 Subj: "Cult" defined - Satanism not NA Date: 03-18 13:13:26 EST From: Bruce Daniel Kettler (MCI E-MAIL: 419-8594) Placed on a BBS somewhere in Cyberspace The following is from the Cult Awareness Book, placed in the LIBRARY, and dated February 26, from a boss-man on this BBS. ======================================================== WHAT IS A CULT? Beware of "Another Gospel" Galatians 1:6-9 II Cor 11:3-15 II Timothy 3:1-16 II Timothy 4:3-4 Colossians 2:8-23 Proverbs 14:12 The 'Marks' of a Cult-How YOU can Know One When You See One: I. DEIFY MAN... II. HUMANIZE GOD... III. MINIMIZE SIN... IV. OSTRACIZE THE SCRIPTURES... V. A DIFFERENT JESUS... VI. A DIFFERENT SALVATION VII. DIFFERENT SPIRIT... VIII. MODERN DAY PROPHET... IX. THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH... X. SECRETS .. CLOSED TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD... XI. CANNOT LEAVE... ============================================================ The word "cult" is not significant of a group that: deifies man humanizes god minimizes sin portrays a different jesus The word those who write what this boss man on this BBS compiled are looking for is probably "witch" or "heretic" However "witch" or "heretic" would stir up memories of times past, during which "witches" were hung according to a fundamentalist Bible quote of "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." And "heretic" would stir up memories of the Inquisition, which I know this BBS boss man would not have allegiance to. "Heretic," however is a *correct* word. Either that or "people who don't believe as we do." Or, one could say, "people who don't follow the literal meaning of the bible." "New Age," or "Unity" is an unorthodoxy, but it's not a "cult." By the way, Unity's Christianity is quite often self-proclaimed "New Age." Edgar Cayce was a devoted Christian and a "New Ager" also. A cult, not according to the dictionary, but the present day *connotation* it has is shown by Charlie Manson, a notorious criminal who killed people, and induced others to, as a result of his zealous fanaticism. Another example is the Jonestown massacre: the mass suicide in South America. The connotation definition can fit the number VIII, IX, X and XI above, but is not what "Unity" or "New Age" is about. By the *dictionary,* it's just a zealous devotion to a person, ideal, or thing, and by that definition just about every fundamentalist I've ever known or known of, fits that description. *Certain* fundamentalist fit the connotation description, and those are the one's who run around screaming about how the "New Agers," will probably murder Christians. This is in this "New Age Plot?" folder. Much of the use of words in the "...Awareness Book" placed in the Religion Software Library shows distorted meanings, much like that presented in this folder. I've heard these type people on the radio and TV, those who are very fearful of these "workers of the devil," as "New Age" people are referred to. I'm sure the witch hunters in New England had the same problem with the so-called "witch's" "mind powers." ADDITIONAL QUOTE FROM "Cult Awareness Book": ============================================================ SIGNS OF SATANISM 3) A preoccupation with psychic phenomena like telepathy astral projection, Tarot Cards, I Ching and parapsy- chology. ============================================================= Preoccupation (as defined by who?) with Tarot Cards and astral projection are supposedly "Satanism." Many New Agers then are considered "Satanists" according to this "...Awareness" literature.

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