To: Balanone Date: 29 Feb 92 22:32:30 Subj: +quot;Nazi sympathies+quot; Attr: Rec'd

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******************************************************************************* From: Diane Vera Msg Num: 73 of 80 To: Balanone Date: 29 Feb 92 22:32:30 Subj: "Nazi sympathies" Attr: Rec'd Read: N Conf: Magickal Chat Echo (93Net) ******************************************************************************* Here, at last, is my long-procrastinated reply to your February 3 string of messages to me in BASE OF SET titled "Non-Fascist Temple of Set". I've decided to try to move this discussion to OASIS, since I gather that most BASE OF SET readers are long since tired of it, and so that Tim can comment without being perceived as "hounding Setians". OASIS, in case you're unfamiliar with it, is an occult "anything goes" echo, distributed mainly to OTO boards and thus inhabited mainly by Thelemites, with a large minority of Satanists. . Thanks for spelling out Aquino's disagreements with all the main tenets of Nazi ideology. I hope you'll suggest to Aquino that he give a similarly straightforward reply next time someone tries to question him in depth about the common perception of "Nazi sympathies" on his part. (Had he done so in MAGICKNET two years ago, I don't think Tim would have written "The Nazi Trapezoid", although Tim might still have had a few questions. Right, Tim?) . B > In Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 response, as quoted in part 2 of your 1/25 post to me, Dr. Aquino says, "I have always deplored its [Naziism's] premises, policies, and activities which resulted in savagery and misery to a great many people." He deplores its premises (ideology) and its policies (practices) which result in savagery and misery. . But, unlike your message to me, Aquino's "response" to "The Nazi Trapezoid" doesn't specify *what* these "premises" are which he deplores. Aquino does, after all, agree with (or at least encourage open-mindedness toward) *some* ideas that are associated with Nazism. For example, on March 15, 1990 in MAGICKNET, Aquino wrote to Mel. White in a message titled "Taboo Genetics": . MA > Dear Ms. White, Yes, it's interesting when one comes across a living example of the Nazi genetic breeding experiments - bearing in mind that this program barely got off the ground before the outcome of WW2 brought an end to it. Humanity breeds vegetables and virtually every other animal except itself to improve strength, substance, appearance, etc. Prior to WW2 the entire subject of human genetic engineering by selective breeding was not a taboo as it is today. It was not just Nazi Germany which was interested in it. But the Nazis' experiments in it transformed it into a postwar taboo, equated today with racism, genocide, etc. Perhaps in another century this taboo will have exhausted itself, but for now even a hint of interest in it is certain to provoke howls of indignation from the masses. I have a friend who was [un]fortunate enough to be born in Nazi Germany as a result of a marriage adhering to the country's multi-generational racial laws. Consequently she has a birth certificate, complete with gold eagle & swastika, which is positively dazzling - certainly nothing like the rubber-stamp certificates issued today. She has been heard to remark rather bitterly that all the golden certificate got her was increased persecution in the years following the war. Such is the mandala of history. . Aquino suggests here that human "genetic engineering by selective breeding" doesn't necessarily have to mean racism. And indeed it doesn't, at least in theory. But I don't see how, in practice, human eugenics could ever be disentangled from racism and other forms of oppression. I'm wondering how, "in another century", Aquino thinks it might be implemented. . I don't necessarily expect you to provide an answer to this question, since you're not Aquino. I'm just trying to give you an idea of why, in the absense of any clear statement by Aquino stating what he does *not* agree with about Nazi ideology, Tim got the very strong impression that Aquino is a "Nazi sympathizer". Simply disapproving of Nazi atrocities (as Aquino has done) does not constitute a statement of fundamental disagreement with Nazism. As Tim Maroney wrote in MAGICKNET on February 26, 1990, in a message to Brad Hicks, "Re: Oh, Yeh?": . TM > One more thing -- it may not be clear why I regard Aquino's latest statement about Nazism to still be unclear on the subject. To transplant the argument, I personally am aware that socialists have done any number of mean, evil, and nasty things, and I condemn those -- this is an exact parallel to Aquino's stated feelings about Nazism. However, you would be incorrect to draw from that the conclusion that I consider socialism an abomination or am not sympathetic to it. In fact, the opposite is true; I consider the socialist atrocities to be aberrations and the fundamental theory to remain sound. Anyone dealing honestly with any political movement that has attained any degree of public success must admit that many manifestations of the movement have been undesirable. But this in itself does not mean that one does not remain in essential sympathy with the goals of the movement. . If only Aquino had posted something like your message, which does constitute a clear statement of disagreement with Nazi ideology, not just Nazi atrocities (though I see a couple minor problems with your statement which I'll discuss later). For the benefit of other readers, I will quote in full the relevant parts of your message: . B > My dictionary defines Naziism as, "the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers' party in the Third German Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the fuhrer." . B > I'm not Dr. Aquino, but I've been reading his works for well over a decade now, and I've heard some of his discussions on these and related topics, and I believe I can accurately state the following: 1) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the totalitarian principle of government. While he recognizes that there are problems in every form of democracy used to date, democracy in general results in better governments and better organizations than does totalitarianism. In evidence of this, I point to the organization of the Temple of Set (his design), where a) there are multiple checks and balances designed to ensure that no single person wields totalitarian power, b) all members of the Priesthood have an equal vote concerning the bylaws of the organization, and c) a democratic vote of the Council of Nine is powerful enough to remove any officer from power and to expel any member from the organization, including the High Priest. 2) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the state control of all industry. While Dr. Aquino is certainly no captain of industry (he prefers to earn his livelihood within academia), I've never heard him express any dissatisfaction with capitalism or the free market system, other than the generally recognized fact that people can be financially hurt in a non-socialist state. Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which would be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr. Aquino instead argues that Black Magicians should be able to successfully make their own way in a capitalist society. 3) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior. I have always seen Dr. Aquino treat people of various races as comparative equals, judging people not by race, but by personal qualities under the control of the individual (their education, their application of their native intelligence, their sociability, their honor, their dedication, etc). 4) Dr. Aquino disagrees with the Nazi ideology of the supremacy of the fuhrer. There were some things that Hitler said or wrote which are worth studying, but there were also many, many things said, written, and done by Hitler which are reprehensible. Setians are fond of saying they worship none but their own higher Selves. Dr. Aquino lives that ideal. Those are the four ideologies of Naziism listed in my dictionary. If there are other ideologies you wonder about, you'll need to ask about them specifically. Since Naziism and fascism are so closely related, and since Dr. Aquino and the Temple of Set have been accused of being fascist, let me explore that topic also. . B > Fascism -- 1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and race above the individual, and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. 2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. 1) Dr. Aquino believes in and exalts the individual over the nation and race. This is central to the concept of Xeper and the Left Hand Path. This concept is even more important than the Temple of Set -- as High Priest he as seen many individual initiates pleasantly leave the Temple of Set for reasons of their own, and has later welcomed back several of those with open arms. Such is not the behavior of a fascist. 2) Dr. Aquino does not believe in a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader. He believes in the American form of democracy (while admitting that it has its problems), and he has designed the Temple's organization and bylaws to prevent any dictatorial leader from gaining absolute control. 3) Dr. Aquino does not believe in social regimentation nor forcible suppression of opposition. Instead he welcomes diversity within the Temple of Set, and has not only tolerated but welcomed intelligent forms of opposition within the Temple of Set. . So far, my one objection is to the following statement: . B > Instead of arguing for a socialist state, which would be the case if he supported this Nazi ideology, Dr. Aquino instead argues that Black Magicians should be able to successfully make their own way in a capitalist society. . This is one argument I would hesitate to present to a politically- sophisticated audience. At the very least, I certainly wouldn't emphasize it. . Technically, "Nazism" was indeed an abbreviation for the phrase "National Socialism". However, *today's American* neo-fascists, racists, and "Nazi sympathizers" will usually present themselves as ardent champions of capitalism. How they reconcile this contradiction, I don't know; but it's nonetheless a fact that they will usually oppose welfare, rather than arguing (as perhaps a classical Nazi might) that we should keep welfare but reserve it for people of pure Nordic descent. Today's neo-Nazi types usually assume (like the LaVey crowd) that only "inferior" folks would ever need welfare. Also, they will sometimes claim to be champions of small business against the corporate establishment ("Main Street vs. Wall Street"). . It has also been questioned how genuinely socialist "National Socialism" really was. I've read several places that Nazism was promoted by German industrialists as an alternative to "real" socialism. I don't know enough about Nazism's actual ecomonic policies to make a judgment about this. In any case, Nazism was fiercely anti-Communist, which it has in common with today's American neo-Nazi's. . I'm *not* trying to suggest that being pro-capitalist or fiercely anti-Communist makes one a "Nazi sympathizer". I'm simply pointing out that, in today's political context, being pro-capitalist does not constitute evidence *against* a perception that one is a "Nazi sympathizer", semantically correct though that argument may be. . Later in your message, in your comments on Tim Maroney's article "The Nazi Trapezoid", you made another argument I wouldn't present to a politically-aware audience: . B > The Order of the Trapezoid is *not* "dedicated" to Nazi occultism. [...] If the Order of the Trapezoid is "dedicated" to anything, that dedication is found in the statement, "The O.Tr. is an Order of knighthood characterized by strict personal honor and faithfulness to the quest for the Grail. The Order is a *knighthood* in that its members are pledged to the traditional chivalric virtues as appropriate to each situation encountered. By *honor* is meant a sense of justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to personal comfort, convenience, or advantage. This honor is known by one's *faithfulness* to the Quest of the Grail, which is the self, soul, or psyche made perfect through conscious refinement and exercise of the Will." Let me repeat that sentence which expands on the Order's concept of honor: "By *honor* is meant a sense of justice, ethics, and responsibility prior to personal comfort, convenience, or advantage." In my opinion that statement directly and absolutely disproves Tim's expectation of fascism. . That statement does "directly and absolutely disprove" an expectation of LaVey-style nihilism; but, as Tim pointed out to me in BASE OF SET, fascist ideology is *not* incompatible with an emphasis on the idea of honor. (The concepts of elitism and honor don't prove that ToS and/or the Order of the Trapezoid *are* fascist, but they certainly don't disprove it.) So, I definitely wouldn't use this particular argument unless you're familiar with fascist concepts of "honor" and are prepared to spell out how the Order of the Trapezoid's concept differs from it. . Backtracking a bit, just after your enumeration of the central doctrines of Nazism and fascism which Aquino disagrees with, you made a series of arguments which I wouldn't use because they sound too much like evasions (which seems to be a common ToS bad habit, perhaps growing out of most Setians' understandable desire to keep a low profile). . B > You quote Dr. Aquino's 11/14/90 statement, "To the extent the Order is interested in Nazi Germany, it is essentially with regard to the very extensive research into occultism conducted by the Ahnenerbe and other groups & individuals during that period." You then go on to claim, "As the Order of the Trapezoid statement makes clear, there is much more to its interest in Nazism than this. Aquino does not address any of the specific issues raised in Tim's article, which I will highlight in a later message to you." [...] Reading through the Order of the Trapezoid statement, I find that the introduction concentrates on German Romanticism, and the Order's statement doesn't even mention the Third Reich until the eighth paragraph. The Third Reich and the Nazi influence is then discussed and dismissed in six paragraphs. The Third Reich and Nazi influence occupies less than one page in the five-page document. Reading those six paragraphs, I find myself unable to support your claim that "there is much more to its interest in Nazism than this." I do find the 1939 quote from Herman Rauschning, which said, "This irrational element in National Socialism is the actual source of its strength. It is the reliance on it that accounts for its 'sleepwalker's immunity' in the face of one practical problem after another. It explains why it was possible for National Socialism to attain power almost without the slightest tangible idea of what it was going to do. ..." Yes, the study of the social dynamics which are mentioned are of interest, but I fail to see the connection between those social dynamics and Naziism ... those social dynamics apply to all fanatical movements which quickly rise to power (or at least struggle for it). Do you disagree? If you can point out to me where you find this interest in Naziism rather than German Romanticism, perhaps I'll be better able to answer your question. Until then, I just don't see the source of your concern. . The Order of the Trapezoid statement does deal with how the German Romantic concepts of "dynamism and life-worship" got used/abused by the Nazis. The statement says, "The uncanny attraction of the Third Reich - Nazi Germany - lies in the fact that it endorsed and practiced both dynamism and life-worship without restraint and to a world-shaking degree of success." . Taken together, the Order of the Trapezoid statement and Aquino's "response" to Tim show a concern with at least four different elements pertaining to Nazi Germany: (1) The Ahnenerbe S.S.'s occult research, (2) the German Romantic philosophical background of "dynamism and life-worship", (3) the social dynamics of a fanatical movement, and (4) official Nazi artwork, as in the Fenris wolf on the masthead of the Order of the Trapezoid's newsletter: not just any old Fenris wolf, but the specific artistic rendition of Fenris "from the cover of the August 1941 issue of _Germanien_, official journal of the _Ahnenerbe_, the elite section of the SS concerned with the theory and practice of the Black Arts". All of this, together with the above-quoted statement referring to "The uncanny attraction of the Third Reich", does indicate a *fascination* with Nazi Germany, though not necessarily an *agreement* with Nazism itself. The fact that some of the above elements are not unique to Nazism does not invalidate the thesis that Aquino's writings show a *fascination* for Nazi Germany, a thesis whose truth is even more evident when I review the MAGICKNET archives. . Of course, as I've indicated, having a fascination for Nazi Germany isn't the same thing as agreeing with Nazism. You made a very good case for the thesis that Aquino is not a "Nazi sympathizer". Please don't overstate your case by trying to claim or imply that he doesn't have a particular fascination for Nazi Germany. It probably isn't an *all-consuming* fascination, and it's probably only one of a number of Aquino's fascinations; but the fascination is clearly there. . Regarding "the specific issues raised in Tim's article, which I will highlight in a later message to you", I discussed most of them in my 5-part February 24 message to All in BASE OF SET, "Trapezoi.TXT". -!- Maximus 2.00 ! Origin: BaphoNet-by-the-Sea -=- 718/499-9277 (1:278/666)

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