Conversations with a Satanist Tommy Savage 1993 Tommy Savage CONTENTS Preface

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Conversations with a Satanist Tommy Savage 1993 Tommy Savage CONTENTS Preface 3 1. What is Satanism? 5 2. America - Christian Country 13 3. Common misconceptions and outright lies 21 4. Who gets the credit, God or man? 33 5. Biblical Scripture 41 6. What is evil? 57 7. Masturbation and the fear of sex 66 8. What about love? 81 9. Christian [In]tolerance & a lesson in semantics 87 10. Am I a Satanist? 101 11. Why become a Satanist? 112 12. Some theories on Satan 120 13. On the lighter side 128 14. Satanic organizations 132 15. Selected readings 135 PREFACE This book contains actual conversations conducted on a computer bulletin board service. The names of the individuals involved have been changed, not in order to protect them, but to insure that I won't have to ask their permission or pay them . Satan has been blamed for everything that has gone wrong in the world for the last 2,000 years. He is the scapegoat for all the world's problems. For every thought that goes against the principles and tenets set forth by mainstream Judeo-Christian society, for every action commited by man that he can not, or will not accept responsibility for, Satan has been held accountable. There was a time [not too long ago in fact] when those who suffered from mental illness were said to be possessed by the Devil. 'The Devil made me do it' is a common defense [or lack of one] for criminals and other undesirables who are unable [or unwilling] to take responsibility for their own actions. He has been used to scare people into following an outdated and outmoded religion. Without the threat of being eternally damned to the unspeakable tortures and agonies in the fiery pit of Hell, Christianity would not have been as successful as it is, and the Church would have been out of business a long time ago. So how does the Church treat the person responsible for it's continued success? Very shabbily indeed! Satanists are the last real minority. It is acceptable [although illegal and unconstitutional] to discriminate against Satanists. Whether it is on the television talk and news shows, Christian [and secular] radio shows, or in print, Satanists can be harassed and condemned with impunity. No other group or religion has to suffer such indignation. On the following pages, intermingled with my personal views, are some of the conversations I have had with Christians over the modem lines on a public access bulletin board. I have left them complete and unedited [except for the many misspellings]. I was surprised [although with all things considered, perhaps I shouldn't have been] to learn that in these supposedly enlightened times, a lot of people still believe everything they see on shows like 'Geraldo' or read in the trashier, headline hungry newspapers. Ignorance creates fear, fear becomes hate, and hate leads to the kinds of atrocities that Christians have been committing for centuries. More people have been killed in the name of the Christian God than for any other reason, and yet poor old Satan has to take the rap for all the so-called evils of the world. In these conversations I have tried to dispel some of the myths and misconceptions surrounding Satanism. The book also shows how Satanism can be and is incorporated into everyday life. While all Satanists will find something of value within these pages, it is mainstream Christian society that will benefit the most from it. The views and ideas I have expressed in this book [while influenced by the works of Dr. LaVey and others] are solely my own and are not meant to represent any established Satanic organization. Oxnard, Ca., February 28, XXVIII A.S. 1. What is Satanism? What is Satanism? For many people the word 'Satanism' immediately conjurs up images of black robed figures, animal and human sacrifices, black masses, blood rituals, and a score of other atrocities so horrible, that the mind wobbles. These tales are avidly revealed to us by headline hungry newspapers and ratings conscious TV shows. The sources for these stories are most often indignant members of the Christian church or sobbing neurotics who, under the advice of their therapist, have come forward to recount their ghastly experiences at the hands of a brutal Satanic cult as part of their 'healing process' and in the hopes that others may gain strength from their courage. Their altruistic gestures are, of course, supplemented by a large check for their appearance. The picture they paint is a grim one, but not necessarily a realistic one. This is not Satanism as it is practiced today. While I am not naive enough to think that some of these so-called 'Satanic ritual abuses' have never happened, most of the horror stories are pure fantasy propagated by the Christian church in order to instill fear into the populace. The Church knows that in order to keep it's flock, and gain new sheep to the herd that it must promote itself as the last bastion of hope in a world ruled by the evil Satan and his bloodthirsty hordes. There is also a growing trend among some psychotherapists who, in seeking fame via talk shows and/or a book deal, actually have placed ideas of Satanic ritual abuse into their patient's minds. These people have no recollection of any kind of 'Satanic' abuse until after they are introduced to it by their therapists. The use of leading questions and suggestion, while the patient is under hypnosis, can actually implant false memories of 'Satanic' rituals, child sacrifices, molestations, and blood drinking into the less than healthy mind of their patients. The only people who appear to believe this nonsense are several major police departments who have actually started 'Satanic task forces' to investigate what they claim to be a growing phenomena of Satanic crime. They claim that there is a world-wide Satanic cult terrorizing our country. Millions of taxpayer dollars have been spent in the investigation of this cult. They cite cases of animal mutilations, Satanic grafitti, and of course the testimony of the 'survivors' as proof that this cult exists. The fact that no hard evidence [such as the bones of the victims, bloody knifes, soiled robes, ect...] has ever been produced or any culprits indicted has not stopped special agents assigned to these Satanic task forces from traveling around the country and speaking at churches, PTA meetings and anywhere else they can about the dangers involved with Satanism. They give a list of 'warning signs' that show involvement in Satanic activities. These 'signs' include listening to heavy metal music, wearing black clothing, outbreaks of violent behavior, depression, nightmares or insomnia, withdrawal from family and friends, and the list goes on. Parents are told to watch for these signs and to take the appropriate actions [i.e. Report them to the police and seek immediate psychiatric and religious counseling] if they suspect their child might be involved with Satanism or the occult. There are some confused and twisted people who commit the horrendous acts made famous on TV talk shows and in the National Enquirer. But these sick individuals are not Satanists, they are nothing more than Christian 'Devil' worshipers and nuts who have bought into the Church's propaganda and need to justify their vile deeds by putting the blame on someone else, namely Satan. A Satanist loves his life and freedom and would not jeopardize them by breaking the law. Satanists do not need to prey upon unwilling and innocent victims, there are plenty of willing participants to be found for any type of activity you wish to engage in. A true Satanist [despite all the malicious slander] would never harm an animal or a child. Instead, a Satanist holds them in the highest regard because they act naturally and true to themselves. They are not motivated by self-sacrificing ideologies. They have not yet been corrupted and blinded by the outdated moral code and backward ethics that will someday be thrust upon them by the masses of Christian sheep that inhabit our planet. Satanists do not worship the Christian 'Satan'. He is merely a myth created by the writers of the Bible to add some drama and conflict to their tale. Most of the Satanists that I know do not even believe in a God, and none of them believe in the red underwear wearing, pitchfork carrying, horny headed fallen angel cast into the fiery pit for all eternity. If a view of 'God' is needed, most think of it as a balancing force in nature that is unknowing and uncaring of the trials and tribulations of man. 'If you don't believe in Satan, then why do you call yourselves Satanists?' Good question, here's the answer. [actually, here's a whole bunch of answers.] Take your pick. Number 1. The Hebrew word 'Satan' literally translates to 'adversary, opposite' and we are the enemies of the anti-human philosophies and herd mentality of the Judeo-Christian religion. All abstinence = spirituality religions thrive on the lack of 'self' in it's congregation. By removing the egos of their followers, religious leaders are able to keep it's flock under control and their hands buried deeply in their pockets. Number 2. By using the name Satan, [even though it carries negative connotations to the majority of society] we can shake up the status quo and sufficiently shock people enough so that just maybe, we might get their attention long enough for them to hear what we have to say. Our society has become increasingly apathetic, and sometimes a slap in the face is the only way to get someone's attention. Number 3. Christians blame everything they don't like on Satan. If someone goes against the established Christian order, he is said to be under the influence of Satan. There are only two kinds of people to the religious fundamentalist; Christians and Satanists. Why not take the name they have already given us and use it to our advantage? Number 4. Satan has been depicted in hundreds of stories, by hundreds of authors, in hundreds of ways. There are however, some common traits that are attributed to the Prince of Darkness in all of these stories [including the Bible]. Some of the most common are intelligence, cleverness, pride, a sense of humor, nobility, arrogance, cunning and most of all, a deep sense of self-worth. Is this the kind of person that we should despise? On the contrary, these characteristics are to be admired, especially when compared to the jealous, vindictive and cruel nature of God as presented in the Old Testament. Of the two, I would much rather be associated with Satan. Number 5. It is useful in weeding out the weaker and therefore undesirable element from our midst. A lot of people use the name of Satan because it makes them feel special, or gives them a false sense of power. They think that if they align themselve with us that our strength will be transfered to them. Teenagers and those who are just plain antisocial, use the name as a means to thumb their noses at authority. The greedy have used it because they think they can make a buck off of it. What these types people fail to realize is that by using the name Satanist, they open themselves up to persecution, hatred, and the most vicious kind of slander. Only a truly strong and self-confident person could take an obvious stigma like the title of Satanist and make it work for them. In short, only a true Satanist can use the name and get away with it. 'Death is the great abstinence'-Anton Szandor LaVey. Satanism is a celebration of life and personal success instead of the Christian philosophy of 'Thou shall not' and self debasement in order to gain glory once you are dead. Satanist strive for success and happiness in all aspects of their lives. They boldly walk through life with their heads held high, smashing the sacred cows of man and religion and exposing their fallacies for all to see. Satanism is much more than just an an anti-Christian philosophy. It also provides a healthy dose of ritual and dogma. Growing up as we have in a dominant Christian society, ritual has become an ingrained part of our society. Many people desire a little organized ceremony in their lives, and Satanism can provide that. Most Christian ceremonies [such as Christmas] are actually parodies of earlier pagan ceremonies. Any first year Biblical scholar can attest to the fact that Jesus wasn't born in the winter, but his birth is celebrated on December 25th for a very simple reason. When the conquering Christians gained power, they found that is was easier to keep their new [physically forced] converts happy and under control if, instead of totally eradicating their old religion, they just changed it around a little bit. December 25th is suspiciously close to the Winter Solstice, a pagan holiday. The individual human will is the cornerstone of Satanic philosophy. The ability to reason and make individual choices is a primary attribute of Satanists. For far too long religion has been used as an excuse to justify a persons thoughts and actions. Saying 'I believe this because I'm a Christian' or 'I act this way because I'm a Christian' are nothing more than convenient escape routes from reason. Using religion [or anything else for that matter] as a scapegoat to justify your actions is not the way of the Satanist. As Satanists, we must constantly ask ourselves 'Why do I believe this?' If you can come up with no better answer than 'Because I am a Satanist' you should rethink your stance on the given issue, and perhaps reevaluate your assertion that you are a Satanist. Like any other serious organization, Satanism also contains within itself a set of goals. Stratification is one of the major goals of Satanism. Simply put, stratification means that individuals end up on the level of achievement and success that they have earned and deserve through their hard work and personal abilities. Men are not born equal! This myth must be put to rest once and for all. The Church has strived to homogenize our society. When all men are made to be equal, then control of them becomes a simple matter. A Satanist realizes that men are NOT equal. Some are born with more raw talent or intelligence than others. The cultivation and application of these abilities will determine the level of achievement you obtain as compared to others. This is not to say that you should compare yourself to others by their standards! You alone can decide how you are fulfilling the goals you have set for yourself, and they must be by your standards. Judging yourself by the ethics and morals set by others is for the milling hordes that infest our planet, and not for the Satanist. Another goal of Satanism is the strict taxation of churches. For far too long these establishments have been given a free ride in our society. They are nothing more than a cleverly concealed business. They advertise, sell goods, and make a profit. Why should they be exempt from paying their rightful share to the country that allows their foolishness to flourish? If churches were taxed, the National Debt would be wiped out in no time flat. There are many reasons why a person chooses to live a Satanic lifestyle, foremost among them being happiness. If you are happy with your chosen path in life, and are living by your own rules and not blindly following the outmoded moral concepts of others, if you are achieving success at the goals you have set for yourself, then you are living a lifestyle that can certainly be considered Satanic. Some people come to Satanism because they are fed up with the hypocrisy that is inherent in the Christian religion. They can no longer pretend to follow a belief system that for them, has ceased to have any real meaning. Satanism offers them something no other organized religion can, freedom. There are no moral or ethical restrictions in Satanism besides "Harm none that don't deserve harm." There are no guilt trips imposed and no absolutions offered. No quarter asked, none given. A Satanist must take responsibility for his/her actions. Satanists by nature are solitary creatures and most choose to exclude themselves from as much contact as possible with the teeming multitudes that swarm this planet. They are a drain on our vitality. Ideally, contact with these individuals should be limited to circumstances of the Satanists choosing. Instead, a Satanists prefers to surround himself with things that are aesthetically pleasing. Literature, art, music, these are the companions of a Satanist. The two major factions of modern Satanism are the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set, but there are hundreds of smaller organizations throughout the world. The Church of Satan was founded by Anton Szandor LaVey on April 30, 1966 and the Temple of Set was started in 1975 by Michael Aquino, a former High Priest in the Church of Satan. The Church of Satan and it's founder are solely responsible for bringing Satanism out of the shadows and into the public eye. Many books and articles have been written about the Church of Satan and Dr. LaVey and they can be found at any of the better bookstores and libraries. Not much public information is available about the Temple of Set. They choose to hide themselves behind a shroud of secrecy. At the end of this book are some names and addresses of various Satanic organizations. 2. America - Christian Country? Many people are under the false impression that our government was founded on the principles of Christianity. This is simply not the case. The brave men who banded together to throw off the English yoke of oppression were not an overtly Christian bunch [and some of them, most notably Thomas Jefferson, despised Christianity]. In fact most of them weren't Christians at all but were Freemasons. The separation of Church and State was one of the major issues adopted by our freedom loving ancestors. They did not want the same oppression and persecution to corrupt their new nation that had corrupted and shamed the puritans. It seems to be the popular belief that the pilgrims left England and came to this country to escape religious persecution. It makes for a nice story, but how accurate is it? It is well known [among those who can read and look beyond the somewhat biased fables that are taught in school] that our puritan ancestors engaged in religious fanatacism and persecution that rivaled that of the spanish inquisition. The Salem witch trials is just one of the many examples of their rabid [and often times violent] devotion to their God. Luckily for us, their reign of terror didn't last and it was a more enlightened, more intelligent people that founded our great nation. Take for example, our pledge of allegiance. The line "One nation under God" was not added to the pledge until 1954 [during the hey-day of McCarthyism. Just one of the low points our nation has had to endure thanks to the political power of religious fanatics]. Everyone of us were taught in school the story of the Boston tea party. A small band of Bostonian's dressed up like Indians and dumped tea into the harbor in a protest over the tax on tea. They dressed up like Indians to fool the ship's owner as to the real identity of the group. Why anyone would think Indians would be upset about a tea tax is not known. What is known is that the people involved frequented a tavern called the "Green dragon", a hotbed of political dissent. They gathered in the Green Dragon prior to their rendezvous at the docks. This tavern was also a well known haunt of Freemasons. It is a reasonable assumption that some, if not the majority, of the participants were indeed Masons. While this is not the popular belief held by the Christian majority or presented in the textbooks, supporting evidence is easy to locate. The first U.S. Freemasonic lodge was established in Philadelphia, later to be used [temporarily] as the first U.S. Capitol. Among it's members was Ben Franklin [who was also at one time a member of Sir Francis Dashwood's infamous Hellfire Club]. Members of the Masonic lodge in Boston included John Hancock and Paul Revere. George Washington became a Mason in 1752. With the start of the American Revolution the American lodges broke away from their English counterparts. Of the first 20 presidents, 13 of them were Masons. Thomas Jefferson so hated Christianity that he took a pair of scissors and a pen to his copy of the bible, crossing off or cutting out offending passages and tearing out whole pages. When the British burned down the Library of Congress in 1814, Jefferson sold them 6,000 of his books which became the foundation of the library. Many of these books were on subjects outside the Judeo-Christian religion, and today would be on the Christian fundamentalists list of books to be banned. The Masonic influence [while extending to all parts of our early history] is most evidenced on our currency. Look at the one dollar bill. On the back side is the Great seal of the United States. The seal was adopted shortly after the nation was founded, and thus reflects the beliefs of the men who chose it. The seal is two sided and both sides appear on the back of the dollar. The front side of the Great seal shows a truncated pyramid with "1776" in Roman numerals etched at it's base. All of the inscriptions on the seal are in Latin. The words printed above the pyramid, Annuit Ceptis, mean "He has smiled upon our endeavors." This is commonly misunderstood to be the Christian God. The word for "God" in Latin is Dues. It stands to reason that if the designers of the seal had meant "God", they would would have said it. The"He" doing the smiling is certain to be the all seeing eye [a Masonic symbol] which peers through a [Pythagorean] triangle. The triangle is the symbol of science, not spirituality. On the scroll underneath the pyramid is the inscription Novos Ordo Seculorum which translates to "New order of the ages", and order of science and Knowledge as opposed to Christian superstition and fear. The back side of the Great seal shows an eagle clutching a group of arrows in it's right claw, and an olive branch in it's left. There are 13 leaves and 13 olives on the branch and 13 arrows. Above the eagle is a necromantic star formed by 13 five-pointed stars. The number 13 has long had a sinister reputation. It is the traditional number of people in a witches coven, and even today, many hotels don't have a 13th floor. The inscription E Pluribus Unum [which coincidentally contains 13 letters] means "From many, one" - one purpose, one will, which fits in nicely with magical theory. This was the original motto of the United states until it was replaced by "In God we trust" [which didn't start to show up on our money until 1864 and was formally adopted by congress in 1956]. This preoccupation with the magical number 13 is curious, although it could also represent the 13 original colonies. Perhaps the symbols chosen were selected for just this type of ambiguity of meaning. A lot of careful thought went into the design of the Great seal and numerology certainly played an important part. One thing is certain, the symbolism used on the seal is definitely not Christian. If Christians had designed the Great Seal I'm sure it would have been adorned with crosses, fish and pictures of the virgin Mary and Jesus. Another example of Masonic influence in the early years of the United States is evidenced in the capitol city designed by the founding fathers. The site selected for the new capitol was a largely undeveloped piece of land lying on the border of the states Maryland and Virginia. It was originally divided into two counties, Washington and Alexandria. In the southernmost section of the designated area was a small town called Alexandria. It is at least a curious coincidence that the premier city of Hellenic knowledge would have a namesake in the new capitol. A 100 square mile perfect square was laid out. The four corners of the square face north, south, east and west. Each side of the square has sides that are 50 miles long each. The site chosen for the construction of the government buildings is in the northern section of the square. This seems to echo the occult idea that "North is the position of power." The capitol faces west. The White House is the northern most building of importance as would befit it's status as the seat of power. There was not even a plan for a church in the original draft of the city plan. These are clearly not the designs and ideas of Christians. The Masonic influence and power in our country began to wane in the 1800's and an increasingly predominate Christian leadership started to take over. The country's been going downhill ever since. Here is what some of our founding fathers had to say about Christianity. "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion." "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it." - John Adams (1735-1826) 2nd president of the U.S. "The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system." - Thomas Paine (1737-1809) Satanic patriot "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blind fear." "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." "The Christian God is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust." "Religions are all alike-founded on fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) "What has been the fruits of Christianity?...superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison 4th president of the U.S. "I do not believe in the immortality of the soul." "I doubt the divinity of Jesus although I agree with his moral teachings." - Benjamin Franklin Here's what some of our world's great thinkers had to say about Christianity and religion. "I do not believe in a God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil." - Albert Einstein "Satan is not the enemy of man. But he who made gods of our race, knowing good and evil." - Aleister Crowley "I was brought up in the other service: But I knew from the first that the Devil was my natural master and captain and friend. I saw that he was in the right, and that the world cringed to his conqueror only through fear. I prayed secretly to him; and he comforted me, and saved me from having my spirit broken in this house of children's tears. I promised him my soul, and swore an oath that I would stand up for him in this world and stand by him in the next. That promise and that oath made a man of me. From that day, this house is his home; and no child shall cry in it; this hearth is his altar; and no soul shall ever cower over it in the dark evenings and be afraid." - George Bernard Shaw "The only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance." - Diogenes Laertius "Active evil is better than passive good." - William Blake "Of all the religions, Christianity should be, of course, the most tolerant, but till now the Christians have been the most ignorant of all men." - Voltaire "Satan is the first free-thinker and savior of the world. He frees Adam and impresses the seal of humanity and liberty on his forehead, by making him disobedient." - Mikail Bakunin "A certain sense of cruelty towards oneself and others is Christian; hatred of those who think differently; the will to persecute. Mortal hostility against the masters of the earth, against the 'noble', that is also Christian; hatred of mind, of pride, courage, freedom, libertinage of mind, is Christian; hatred of the senses, of joy in general, is Christian..." - Friedrich Nietzsche "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." - Napoleon "No god ever gave any man anything, nor ever answered any prayer at anytime, nor ever will." - Madalyn Murray O'Hair "All religions die of one disease, that of being found out." - John Morely 3. Common misconceptions and outright lies The mystery and secrecy that surrounds Satanism is should not be totally unexpected. As Satanists, we are not afforded the avenues to tell our side of the story. There's plenty of room in the tabloids and on tv for the horror stories, but no one wants to hear about the rational, mentally stable, law abiding Satanist. People prefer their villains to be, well, to be villainous. They won't believe that their next door neighbor, the guy who cuts his grass, goes to his son's little league game and is nice to his dog, is a Satanist. They can't believe that their doctor, dentist, mailman or grocer could be a Satanist. Satanists are evil, psychotic, blood thirsty ghouls who prowl the night in search of victims to offer in bloody sacrifice to their lord and master. Everyone knows that you have to shed some blood to appease Satan, right? Wrong! Since we do not believe in the Christians myth of Satan, why would we try to appease him? What purpose would it serve to kill someone in the name of a fictitious character? How did these horrible and totally false rumors start, and why [in these supposedly enlightened times] are they still believed? Who stands to profit from such propaganda? Why the Christian church of course! God is big business. More money has been generated by the various branches of organized religion that through any other endeavor in history. The Vatican is one of the wealthiest organizations in the world. Religious leaders worldwide live in comfort and luxury that can only be maintained through a large and constant cash flow. I remember watching the PTL club one day several years ago and seeing Tammy Faye Baker [who was wearing so much jewelry and make-up that I figured she must have stock in Revlon and Ginsler Lee] talking about her child's birthday and how she took him shopping for presents in the Limo earlier that day. It struck me as funny [and terribly hypocritical] that this so-called servant of God was in fact profiting big time from the spreading of false hope and downright lies. How is this possible? Are people actually stupid enough to fall for this sham? It seems as though they are. From it's conception, organized religion has been a money maker. It brings in billions of dollars a year in contributions and sales of religious paraphernalia. The early Church leaders who compiled the Bible knew this, and like all good businessmen, knew that they had to make certain provisions for it's continued success. Now God was a good concept, take all the gods of the past and present, roll them all into one big ball, promote it heavily, [violently is necessary] and watch the money roll in. There was only one small problem. When your advertising an all-powerful, all-benevolent, all-loving [although ruthlessly stern] deity, certain questions were bound to arise such as "If God id so good, and loves us all, why did my baby have to die?" or "Why does God let pain, despair, hatred,violence, death, crime, corruption, ect.. flourish and infect his followers?" So on and so forth. They needed to a scapegoat to put the blame on in order to keep God's good name untarnished and the money flowing. Enter Satan. The idea was simple, take all the bad things found in human society, all of the problems and "negative" aspects of humanity and assign them to another deity, [although one who isn't as powerful as God] and then let it be known that the Church is the only organization capable of saving you from the clutches of this evil being. [Providing you follow the rules and leave a generous donation.] The Church then mounted a ruthless P.R. campaign against Satan that continues to this day. The horror stories told by Christians about Satan and Satanists have become ingrained into the collective consciousness of the population much like those U.F.O. abduction stories and near death, light at the end of the tunnel stories we hear so much today. If someone is told something often enough, [especially by someone they think they can trust] they invariably start to believe it. No matter how many times you try to tell a Christian the truth about Satanism, they won't [or can't] believe you. As terrifying as the false images of sacrifices and other bloodthirsty acts of Satanists are to them, the truth would be much more terrifying. If they knew that our real purpose was to break the stranglehold that Christianity has on our world and expose them to the harsh realities of life with total responsibility, they wouldn't know how to act. As long as we remain cartoon characters capable of being vanquished by a prayer to God, we will be able to accomplish our goals that much easier. In this first set of conversations I deal directly with some of the most common and blatant lies that are associated with Satanism. 12/06 7:00 AM OK everyone, it's time to put an end to the myths and falsehoods that surround Satanism. I will attempt to answer any questions you may have. I've seen you all talking and asking questions about this subject, so here's your chance to get the facts. Speak now or forever hold your peace. Tommy 12/06 8:45 AM I can't believe that there is a real Satanist on these boards. I have a question for you if you don't mind. I love animals, and I can't see why anyone would want to hurt them. Why do you guys do those horrible things to animals? It makes me cry to think that someone would hurt an animal. Beth 12/06 4:12 PM Where did you hear that Satanists harm animals? Was it on a TV talk show? Or perhaps you saw a movie that portrayed Satanists in such a light? Did a Christian tell you this? Did you read it in some magazine? When considering a statement like that, you have to take into consideration it's source. What do the perpetrators of such a rumor have to gain from it's belief. Shows like "Geraldo" or newspapers like the "National Enquirer" make money buy people either watching their shows, or buying their papers. They know how to create a "juicy" story and are not above twisting [or even changing] the facts in order to give their tales a more controversial or appealing aspect. Let's face it, more people will watch a show that features appalling acts of deprivation and horror than will watch a show about people who simply have a differing [although blasphemous] viewpoint. What the Christian church has to gain from the spreading of such rumors is easy enough to figure out, they get to stay in business. Now, to answer your question. Satanists do not, I repeat, DO NOT sacrifice animals or babies. That's just plain stupid. We hold animals and children in the highest regard. To us they are to be revered as the highest embodiment of life. They do not deny themselves the desires and feelings that come naturally to them. They have not yet been taught to unquestionably hate what is different, and they have a natural curiosity for the unknown. They are not hampered by the false guilt that plagues most of the adults today. They are the ideal examples of man's carnal nature and are sacred to a Satanist. Tommy 12/07 9:30 AM Tommy, I see what your saying. I always try to keep an open mind and not believe everything I hear, but I have heard these stories for so long, that I figured they had to be true. I'm glad to hear that this isn't true. I guess I should be more skeptical about things. Thank you for answering me. Beth 12/07 9:00 PM I have a question. How do you explain the evidence found about Satanic sacrifices? I have seen reports and news programs that show butchered animal remains found with the blood drained out of them and Satanic messages like "666" and "Satan rules" written on the walls of abandoned buildings where these remains have been found. These things are real. If Satanists aren't doing it, who is? Tim 12/08 7:07 AM I have seen similar programs that sought to expose these so-called "Satanic ritual sacrifices." These so-called Satanic cattle mutilations have been proven to be nothing more than the work of predators. They feed on the soft, fleshy parts of the animals. They can do quite a complete job in a relatively short period of time. When the carcasses are found there are never any tracks leading to, or from the beast, nor are there any in the near vicinity. Autopsies have shown that these animals died of natural causes. As far as the Satanic grafitti goes, it is done by teenagers who are rebelling against authority and society. What higher authority is their in our society that God? These kids are dabblers in subjects they consider to be "evil", and are referred to as Devil worshipers. "Devil worshipers" are not Satanists. While to the general public they appear to be the same, they are as different as night and day. Satanists do not worship, or even believe in the Judeo- Christian concept of Satan. The "fallen angel" portrayed as the evil, deceitful, destroyer of man is nothing more than a myth propagated by the Christian church in order to keep it's followers in line and it's coffers filled with their money. Tommy 12/09 12:30 PM I have read your answers to the questions about sacrifices and while I see your point and will concede the fact that what you term as "Satanists" are not responsible for a lot of the things they are accused of, I know it is the truth that you use nude females as altars for your rituals and I have heard that children are also used. Do you feel that children should be exposed to this, and are they used for any sexual purposes during your ceremonies? I am a Christian and cannot imagine subjecting any child to these things. Andrew 12/09 2:18 PM Women are frequently used as altars during rituals, but these are adult women who do this if their own free will. Not only does it go against the tenets of Satanism to harm a child, it is also illegal, and a Satanist does not take unwarranted chances where his freedom is concerned. A Satanist would never subject a child, or an unwilling adult to something that would be harmful. While the children of Satanists are raised under the tenets of the parents religion, [as it is in every household throughout the world] they do not participate in any of the sex rituals. Tommy 12/09 4:65 PM I am a Catholic and I worship the Lord God and am not fooled by the lies of Satan, or by his child molesting servants. I have the power of Jesus on my side and can defeat you! You are fighting a losing battle but it is not too late to surrender yourself to God. He will forgive you. Sam 12/09 7:09 PM Where are the facts to substantiate your claim that Satanists are child molesters? On the other hand, cases of child molestation committed by Catholic priests are well documented. In the last decade, the Roman Catholic church has had to pay more than 400 million dollars in restitution from civil suits filed by the victims of priest/child molestation. More than 400 priests have been convicted of this crime in the last 10 years and it is believed that as many as 6,000 cases have gone either unreported, or covered up by the Church. How does the Church deal with these errant priests once they are discovered? Most of the time they undergo a brief psychiatric counseling session and are then assigned to a different parish in another community where they continue their perversions with a new batch of children. One victim support group reported that in just the last year and 1/2, they have been contacted by 1,300 people who claim to be victims of this crime. Quite a staggering figure isn't it? How many Satanists can you name that have been convicted of this [or any other] crime? Tommy 12/09 9:48 PM I'm a good Catholic and I take offense to you casting aspersions on these men of God. Those priests are confused and misguided. They are bedeviled by Satan. They need our love and support. I feel sorry for them and I pray every night for God to save them, and you too. Satan is the real problem, he has entered the souls of the priests and has corrupted them, just as he wants to corrupt you. Don't fall prey to Satan. Only God can save your soul from an eternity of torment. Jennifer 12/10 9:32 AM By blaming Satan for the actions of these men, you take the responsibility away from those who are truly responsible for their actions, the priests themselves. These perverts are not under the influence of a non-existant being, they are sick and twisted people who use their position of authority to take advantage of innocent children who are not wise to their perverted ways. By ignoring the real causes for this kind of behavior, it will never stop, you only pave the way for these horrendous acts to continue. These "holy" and "righteous" men do not deserve pity, they deserve a slow, painful death. Tommy 12/10 12:02 PM What about drinking blood? Steve 12/10 12:41 PM What about it? Tommy 12/10 1:15 PM Do you do it? Steve 12/10 4:32 PM No! Tommy 12/10 5:00 PM OK. Steve 01/05 2:46 PM How do you sell your soul to the devil? What powers does Satan give you in exchange for your soul? Does Satan actually appear when you summon him? What does he look like? I know this is a lot of questions to ask, but I am very interested. I'll understand if you don't want to reply. Sue 01/05 5:12 PM The first thing you have to do when you sell your soul to the Devil is to have the proper magical tools. These items are crucial, without them the spell will not work. You need 13 black candles, one white candle made from the fat of an unbaptized baby [very hard to obtain], a dagger [or sword], a silver chalice, a gong, and an animal [preferably a dog or a cat] to be sacrificed so that you may use it's blood. The first thing you have to do is to cover the walls with the proper magical symbols, painted in the blood of the animal you have brought with you. [It is necessary to kill the animal in the room in which you plan to do the summoning so that it's life force is still present] Then you draw a pentagram [upside down five pointed star] on the floor [in blood], and position a candle at each point of the star, with the white candle in the center, do not light these candles yet. The remaining candles are then placed in various places around the room and are lit immediately. With this done, you are ready to begin the actual summoning. You light the candles that you have placed around the pentagram in a counter clockwise direction, saving the white one for last. Then you bang the gong three times, this purifies the area, and clears it of any unwanted resonances. You then kneel down in front of the pentagram and start reciting the invocation. [I will not print the words here, I fear it would cause terrible repercussions] At the proper moment [the stroke of midnight], you take the dagger, cut your finger, and let the blood drip into the flame of the white candle. If you have done everything correctly, and your desire is strong enough, Satan will come. He appears in a very shadowy form, and it is hard to make out any details about his appearance. When he speaks, it is not an audible voice, but rather a voice that speaks from inside your head. If Satan accepts you [not everyone is automatically chosen], then he will grant you success and power on earth. You will be able to call on him, and he will answer you. You do not have to sign your name in blood like it shows in the movies, your words and desires are all that Satan needs. Satan gives us a life that God and his feeble angels never could. All manners of earthly pleasures are ours to enjoy, and when we die, we gladly join our master in Hell. Tommy P.S. If you believe any of this, I have some beach front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you! 02/07 12:22 PM I think a lot of the problem with the recent surge in Satanic activity throughout the country stems from the fact that the music listened to by teenagers today is full of Satanic overtones. These kids are being exposed to subjects that they are not able to fully comprehend. Their minds are very impressionable and easily swayed to things that are anti-authoritative. The music presents Satan in a glorified and appealing light and doesn't address the ramifications that are inherent from this kind of subject matter. Teenage suicides are at an all time high, and I believe that a lot of it relates directly to the music. It seems like every other day you read about some lawsuit that is being pressed against a heavy metal band who's music has pushed some poor kid over the edge. It's a disgrace. Something has to be done about it before all of our children are gone. Gerry 02/07 3:11 PM While it is true that there have been a rash of lawsuits against heavy metal musicians recently, [most notably Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest] not one case has resulted in a guilty verdict against the artist. Parents of children who have committed suicide are trying to use music as a scapegoat for their child's problems instead of placing blame [or responsibility] where it truly belongs-on themselves or the child itself. Remember the song Gloomy Monday? It was found on the turntables of many suicide victims and was even banned from the radio for a period of time due to the effects it supposedly had on people. Blaming a song, book, movie or anything else for the problems of a child or family is part of the reason these problems end up as tragically as they do. If parents looked to the real source of the problems instead of using a handy scapegoat, a lot more young people would be alive today. Using the Devil as subject matter for music [as well as books and movies] has been popular for centuries. Irving Berlin, who wrote the "wholesome" and "good Christian" songs White Christmas and God Bless America, also wrote songs about Satan. [Stay down here where you belong, At the Devil's Ball, Pack up Your Sins and go to the Devil] Other popular songs from the 20's through the 50's that feature Satan as subject matter include: He's a Devil in His Own Home Town, Satan Takes a Holiday, Old Devil Moon, Satanic Blues, Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, That Old Black Magic, Devil May Care, and many, many others. Satan is also a favorite character in classical music and opera. If you want to blame heavy metal music or rock songs that mention Satan for the problems of our youth, then you have to also place blame on the music of our forefathers, however, this type of self-deceit and scapegoating will only result with these problems continuing to flourish. Instead, we must address the real causes. Apathy, lack of parental guidance, legislated morality, the homogenizing of society, imposed guilt and ignorance are the real culprits, not music. Tommy 4. Who gets the credit, God or man? The following conversation I had with "John", was representative of the type of questions and answers I would receive from Christians who let their religion run their entire life. These types cannot make a move without consulting God or the Bible first. John feels that the only way to give his life purpose and meaning is to devote it to his God. He is currently paying me to post any biblical scripture I choose on one of the bulletin boards and to comment on it. He feels that if I am exposed to the word of his God, that I will succumb to it's irresistible force. He is, of course, wrong. I have included some of these scriptures in the next chapter. In his statements, John argues that since the Christian Bible was written under the divine authority of God, and the Satanic Bible was written by a mere mortal [Anton Szandor LaVey], the Satanic Bible cannot be trusted since man is imperfect and capable of making mistakes. There is two crucial flaws in his logic though, his God does not exist and it was man who wrote his Bible. John, like most Christians, is unable to accept his own feelings or desires and cannot recognize his self-worth. Christians have been programmed since birth to believe that man is incapable of achieving any kind of success without the divine blessing of God. They see themselves, not as superior beings capable of creating anything of value, but as mere creations themselves, who's only purpose on Earth is to please their creator. They cannot accept their ego, so the externalize it, give it power, and call it "God" In worshiping this God, Christians are by proxy, worshiping the creator of God; Man. It is easier to accept failure, or disaster, if one thinks that there is a reason for it. Man cannot find a suitable reason for the many of problems he sees around him. He cannot accept the fact that he is responsible, so he assigns responsibility to a "higher power". "God works in mysterious ways" and "It is God's will" have become catch-phrases of the Christian. He uses them to rationalize events that he feels are unjust or senseless, or more frequently he places the blame on satan and his hordes. Satanists realize that it is the natural action and reaction of the universe that causes things to happen. He knows he is responsible for his own actions, and for the consequences of those actions. A Satanist accepts the burden of responsibility, and with it, accepts the fact that it is he, not God, who is in control. If a man is willing to accept responsibility for his failures, why should he then give credit for his successes to an outside party? Why not thank the party truly responsible and solely in control of his life; Himself. 01/08 7:25 AM Does the practice of satanism allow for us all the pleasures that one would desire? If the answer is yes, does it the imply a philosophy as "Do what you want and don't worry about it?" In Christ-John 01/08 4:04 PM "Satan represents all the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification." This is the 8th Satanic statement as written in the Satanic Bible. There are no forbidden fruits for the Satanist. we are free to indulge in all types of earthly pleasures as long as they harm no one who is undeserving or unwanting of harm. Denying yourself the pleasures found in life because you are afraid that it might anger your God, and in order to gain a reward from him after you are dead is a ridiculously self-defeating concept. Abstaining from the things that give you pleasure can only lessen the value and quality of your life. We are on this planet for only a relatively short period of time, what we do with this time is up to each individual. A Satanist does not waste it. Tommy 01/09 7:37 AM What do you mean when you say "those that are not deserving of harm?" Who deserves harm in your opinion? How can you judge the actions of another? Only God can judge man since He is our creator. John 01/09 1:37 PM If someone goes out of their way to harm me, or any of my loved ones, they deserve to be, and will be, harmed by me in return. Satanists do not turn the other cheek. While Christians rely on their God to take care of things for them, a Satanist [realizing that the only way anything will ever get done is to do it himself] takes matters into his own hands and makes sure the job gets done in a timely fashion and to his satisfaction. Praying to God for help will only result in sore knees and a cramped neck. "Two eyes, an arm, a lung, several inches of spinal column, both kneecaps, and the whole left side of the brain for an eye" is my motto. Tommy 01/09 6:40 PM Scenario: Someone close to a Satanist almost gets in a car crash, she goes to the hospital and she gives birth to her baby who is fine. Later, her husband lands a new job to provide for the family. Then the person who was supposed to sue them did not. Since you do not believe in God, who do Satanists thank for these things? John 01/09 9:55 PM A Satanist would thank only those who are truly responsible for these occurrences. He would be glad that these events turned out the way they did, but he knows that it was no influence by an outside agency [God] which caused them to do so. We avoid accidents by proper handling and maintenance of a car and by paying attention to the road, weather conditions, and other drivers. Women give birth to healthy babies by taking proper care of themselves during pregnancy. [I'm sure you know "how" babies are made.] A person gets a new job by actively seeking out that job, finding a vacant position, and by being qualified for that job. A person may change his mind about a lawsuit after consulting with an attorney and finding out his case has no merit, or perhaps he just didn't want to go through the expense and hassle of a lengthy trial. We are in control our lives, not a non-existant deity. Tommy 01/10 9:00 AM Did a man write the satanic bible? If so, when was it written? Do satanists owe allegiance to Satan? Do they work for him? John 01/10 12:30 PM The Satanic Bible was published in December of 1969. It was written by Anton Szandor LaVey. The Church of Satan was Founded by LaVey on April 30, 1966. Satanists do not believe in the Christian interpretation of Satan. Satan is a myth propagated and kept alive by the Christian Church. A Satanist does not pledge his allegiance to a myth. We use our abilities to improve the quality of our lives and to bring the rewards from our efforts to ourselves and our loved ones. We do it solely for ourselves, not for Satan's, God's, our neighbor's, or anyone else's benefit. Tommy 01/10 1:43 PM Do you think the satanic bible was inspired? What was lavey before he became a satanist? How does a satanist feel in himself if he shows his wrath? Is his wrath one of physical punishment or is he cursed or something? What does love mean to you? John 01/10 3:18 PM So many questions. My, but you are an inquisitive guy. I notice that you do not capitalize the name Satan or LaVey. Is this some form of protest? Are you trying to make some sort of a statement, or are you just being rude? If you are truly interested in Dr. LaVey's past, read the book "The secret life of a Satanist" by Blanche Barton. I however, think that you are asking about LaVey's past in order to try and discredit him and his ideas, a tactic used for centuries by those opposed to new ideas and views which contradict their own. The Satanic Bible [as well as the Christian bible {and in fact, all gods and beliefs of a spiritual nature} was inspired, not by a non-existant deity, but by man's carnal mind. Love to a Satanist means pretty much the same as it does to anyone else, caring. compassion, respect, passion. The difference being that a Satanist is more selective as to whom he bestows his love upon. He does not waste his love on people who neither deserve or appreciate it. Since a Satanist also knows how to hate, he is able to understand the true meaning of love. If a Satanists vents his wrath, it is because he has been harmed or wronged in some way. He feels justified in his actions, and is not remorseful. His anger can manifest itself in many ways; Physically, verbally, or in the form of a "curse". Anger is an emotion felt by all men, whether they choose to admit it or not. If you keep your emotions bottled up inside you, it can do serious harm to you and those around you when you finally blow up. Tommy 01/11 7:36 AM So, lavey started a church FIRST in 1966, THEN came the satanic bible. So the church was created from a man's mind who we don't even know we can trust. In your opinion, don't you think that the satanic bible should be the authority of the church? Is it possible that lavey, who is a man had no divine authority whatsoever? Just curious. John 01/11 11:56 Am Why do you think that a book should have authority over a person? Is the printed word to be your master? While the Satanic Bible contains the information that forms the basis of my religion, it is in no way, shape, or form the last, or only word. The Satanic bible existed in the form of essay's before the inception of the Church and was formally published after the Church's formation . It forms the basic foundation of modern Satanism. Of course Dr. Lavey had no divine authority. There is no higher authority than one's self. As for the question of whether Dr. LaVey is someone who can be trusted, it does not matter. If an idea has validity, it doesn't matter where it came from, what matters is that the idea is a sound one and can actually be put into successful use. Tommy 01/11 6:28 PM Why can't there be divine authority? John 01/11 8:07 PM It's not that there can't be a divine authority, but that there isn't one, and shouldn't be one. You should need no other authority than yourself to justify your thought and actions. Living in a fantasy world where everything is good, God is in his Heaven, Satan is in Hell, and Bob's your uncle is a nice afternoon diversion, but will do little to help you get ahead in life. If you rely on others [God] to provide for you, you will find your life comes up lacking. I do not need authority from a higher power in order to make decisions about my life. I can think for myself, do things for myself, and take responsibility for my actions. Tommy 01/12 9:33 AM You say God does not exist. Does satan exist? John 01/12 1:09 PM No, Satan was invented by the Christian Church in order to keep it's fol- lowers in line and it's coffers filled. If it wasn't for the threat of Satan and Hell; would you be a Christian? Tommy * John never answered that question. Perhaps I made him question his beliefs enough to where he felt he couldn't answer truthfully and still uphold his earlier statements, perhaps not. I may never know. * 5. Biblical Scripture Here are some of the scriptures John paid me to post. [As of this writing, John has reneged on his agreement. Our deal was to last for 3 months. John only paid me for the first month. I, on the other hand, kept my part of the bargain. What does this say about the honesty and integrity of Christians? Well, you can't judge a whole group by the acts of one of it's members, but it sure doesn't make them look any better in my eyes.] At first I posted a lot of verses from the Old Testament, God's laws and what not, but I was repeatedly informed that the laws of the Old Testament have now been replaced by those of the New Testament and no longer applies to the modern Christian. If this is the case, why hasn't the Old Testament been removed from the bible? Christians base their whole belief system on what is written in the Bible. They think, act, feel, and live according to the words set down in this one book. They do not question the philosophies of the Bible, it's the word of God, and God's word can't be questioned. [Remember what happened to Satan when he questioned God.] No amount of logic or reason will sway their faith. When confronted with a contradiction, or piece of false logic in the Bible, Christians just smile and say "We are only human, we can't understand the ways of God." They give up their ambitions, their true feelings, their individuality, and their innermost desires for the spiritual pipe-dreams offered in their most holy of books. Why do Christians believe? Is life so terrifying to them that they will blindly cling to anything that will offer them a glimmer of hope and peace? The contradictions that concern the ways of God ought to be enough to make most sensible people question the veracity of the book. The Bible portrays God in an way that is hardly consistent. Here are some examples of these contradictions: GOD IS SATISFIED WITH HIS WORKS Genesis 1:31; And God saw that everything He had made was excellent. GOD IS DISSATISFIED WITH HIS WORKS Genesis 6:6; Then it was grief to the Lord ever having made man on the earth; He felt grieved at heart. GOD DWELLS IN LIGHT 1 Timothy 6:16; who alone possesses immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no human being has ever seen or is able to see.... GOD DWELLS IN DARKNESS Psalms 97:2; Clouds and darkness surround him....... GOD IS ALL POWERFUL Jeremiah 32:27; Observe I am the lord, the God of all flesh. Is there any- thing too difficult for me? GOD IS NOT ALL POWERFUL Judges 1:19; The lord was with Judah; so he took possession of the hill country, but he was unable to expel the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. GOD IS PEACEFUL 1 Corinthians 14:33; for He is not the God of disorder, but of peace... GOD IS WARLIKE Psalms 144:1; Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who teaches my hands to wage war, and my fingers to do battle. GOD IS KIND, MERCIFUL, AND GOOD Psalms 25:8; Good and upright is the Lord... 1 Chronicles 16:34; For his mercy endureth forever... GOD IS CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE AND FEROCIOUS Jeremiah 13:14; And I will dash them one against each other, the fathers and the sons, says the Lord. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that I should not destroy them. Joshua 10:11; As they fled from Israel down the slope of Beth-horan to Azekah, the Lord cast large stones upon them from the sky, and they died. More died from the hailstones than the Israelites killed with the sword. GOD CANNOT LIE Hebrews 6:18; So that by two unalterable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge in Him may have strong encouragement to seize the hope that is placed before us. GOD LIES AND DECEIVES 2 Thessalonians 2:11; And for this reason God visits them with an delusion that operates on them to believe the falsehood. Ezekiel 14:9; If that prophet is deceived to speak a message, it is I, The Lord who has deceived that prophet... And if that wasn't enough these verses concerning the ways and actions and laws of God should be enough to make any rational Christian [an obvious oxymoron] who can read sincerely question his beliefs. WORKING ON THE SABBATH PUNISHABLE BY DEATH Exodus 31:14; You therefore must keep the sabbath, as it stands for your holiness. Those who profane it shall surely be executed; whoever works on it, that person shall be eliminated from among his people. BEING HOMOSEXUAL PUNISHABLE BY DEATH Leviticus 20:13; When a man lies with a male as with a woman, both have committed something perverse; they will certainly be put to death; their bloodguilt rests upon them. BEING A FORTUNE-TELLER PUNISHABLE BY DEATH Leviticus 20:27; A man or woman who is a medium or fortune-teller shall certainly be put to death; they shall stone them; their bloodguilt rests upon them. BEING DISRESPECTFUL TO YOUR PARENTS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH Exodus 21:17; Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death. OWNING OF SLAVES CONDONED BY GOD Leviticus 25:44-45; Your slaves, male and female, whom you shall own, shall be from the nations around you; of them you shall buy male and female slaves. You may also buy from among the children of the strangers who live among you and from their relatives in your environs, who were born in your country; those you may own. BEATING OF SLAVES CONDONED BY GOD Exodus 21:20; When a man beats his male or female slave with a club, so that the slave dies then and there, the victim shall be avenged; but if he survives a day or two then he must not be avenged, because he is his property. NEWLYWED WOMEN WHO AREN'T VIRGINS MAY BE PUT TO DEATH Dueteronomy 22:13-21; .......but if his charges are found to be correct and no evidence of chastity is found in the girl, then they shall bring her out to the door of her father's house, and the men of the city shall stone her to death.... WORSHIPING ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOD PUNISHABLE BY DEATH Deuteronomy 13:1-18; Entire chapter Well, God always did claim to be a jealous god, he just doesn't always admit to the cruel and vicious part of his personality. I couldn't possibly write down all the inaccuracies, contradictions, and just plain absurdities found in the bible. It would take too long. Instead I have chosen some of my favorites. I have included the responses I received to some of the verses, others I have just included to serve as comic relief. 01/11 3:29 PM Verse for today; Revelation 22:18 "I warn anyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are described in this book." This verse means that if you try to change the word of God, either by adding your own meanings, or by changing the literal meanings set forth in the book, then you shall be punished. Hell, the early church fathers [when compiling the Bible] edited, changed, deleted and rewrote much of the original text. Many verses are purposely cryptic and open to numerous interpretations. Christians have always interpreted the meanings of the scriptures to suit their own needs and viewpoints. I have seen this happen time and time again right here on this board. I sure would hate to be living next door to you guys when God gets around to dealing with you. Tommy 01/12 10:57 AM You better sit down. I agree, yes agree with most of your explanation of the verse, although "literal meanings" is a pretty far stretch. Much of the bible, Jesus's stories and especially Revelations, is full of analogies and simile. This is purposeful, however, so that different cultures, societies, and people in general are able to "read into" and understand it in their own way. The Bible is a living thing, somehow being absorbed into the cultures of a thousand different places in a thousand different times. This has been done since it's creation, yet the word has never changed. Can you explain this? Phil P.S. Your slipping, tommy. You neglected to put "your" in front of "God" like you normally do. Could it be that you subconsciously believe? 01/12 3:00 PM My omission of the word "your" was not some kind of a Freudian slip. I sometimes leave it out on purpose. I like to keep you on your toes. Besides, you know I don't believe in God and am only arguing in the hypothetical sense anyway. In answer to your question, I believe the "Word" has been changed, through numerous translations and censoring [sometimes whole chapters] by the early church fathers, I'm sure it hardly resembles the original manuscript. Change one word, and whole chapters and verses can take on a new meaning. The deliberately cryptical nature of the bible only makes it more unbelievable and untrustworthy. It can be interpreted in a thousand different ways and have a thousand different meanings attached to it. This is one of the reasons for it's longevity, it's hard to pin down on specifics, so it can keep the "experts" and laymen alike, guessing for years to come. The fact that is has survived as long as it has really proves nothing about the truthfulness or accuracy of the book. Many of the more popular myths have survived the ravages of time. The tale of Santa Claus has been around for almost as long, and you don't still believe in Santa, do you? Tommy 01/13 6:56 Nuts, and I thought I was keeping you on YOUR toes. This is truly grand! I wish I had joined this board sooner. I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Phil 01/12 6:19 PM Wow, Tommy, that pretty much takes care of almost all organized Christian Churches, including the Catholic Church, which is the master at interpreting the "Word" to fit it's needs. I'm glad someone like you is around to liven up these boards and make us question our own beliefs. Karen 01/12 7:22 PM Yeah, pretty good huh? Tommy 01/12 12:15 PM Tom, I like this verse a lot. When God uses the word "book" in that verse he is referring to the whole bible. To "add" prophecy means that some denomination has the Bible as it's authority + a vision or a tongue or messages from God in an audible voice. The person now has a w i d e r authority. He has the Bible + he believes in that message or vision. To take "away" can point to a denomination who only holds the Old Testament as it's authority. John 01/12 5:21 PM Hey Tommy, good try! I am not even going to try and argue with you on this one. Fact, you are right. I know this may sound strange coming from someone who loves Jesus like I do, but the fact of the matter is, I don't have to interpret Revelation or any part of the Bible for it to have meaning. Just reading it is enough. The part about Satan being thrown into a lake of fire, no interpretation needed there, or the part about Christ ruling forever, I don't need to defend that either. Does a lion need to be defended? No, neither does the Word of God. Dan 01/12 6:00 PM If the lion was as sick and dying as your religion is, it would need plenty of defending. Blind faith is just a shortcut to reason. Not questioning, or seeking the truth behind the words is unthinkable. If you are just reading the Bible and not attaching any kind of meaning to it, other than the literal meaning of the words, then my question to you is: Are you living your life exactly as the Bible tells you too? Tommy 01/12 7:41 PM It is virtually impossible for a person to live their life EXACTLY as the Bible says to. It is enough that we love God and that we try to live as God wants us too. We are after all, only human, and humans are imperfect. All men sin and fall short of the glory of God, but that's OK, we are granted forgiveness by his infinite mercy. Dan 01/12 8:03 PM What's the point then? If you can't or aren't going to live your life according to the laws set forth in the Bible, then why have it? By saying you are only human and are imperfect you are merely opening up an escape route for yourself and trying to justify your shortcomings. I've read the Bible, and if you were as committed to your God as you claim to be, if you truly believed, if the words of the Bible were truth and God was a reality, you COULD live your life according to the laws of God. The fact that you [or anyone else] can't, should make you question the veracity and necessity of your beliefs. Christianity is unnatural, it goes against instincts and desires that are inherent in humans. Spirituality cannot override man's carnal nature. Tommy 01/15 10:58 AM Tommy's verse of the day; Job 1:21 Saying "Naked I came forth from my mothers womb, and naked I shall return; the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the lord." This verse means everything that you own has been given to you by God, therefore, he has the right to take it away. Now, I know that the bible claims it was Satan who actually did the physical damage to Job's family and servants, but God let him do it. God in his infinite jealousy and pride, set Job up big time, and for no other reason than God wanted to show off for Satan a little. If I remember the story correctly, God gave Job a bunch of nifty prizes at the end of the story, but this is in no way proper recompense for having one's children murdered. What kind of a crummy God is going to take part in having something like this happen to one of his followers, especially one as faithful as Job, who had always shown him reverence and never failed to debase himself properly before his loving lord? You Christians are always so fond of stating that God knows everything that has happened or is going to happen, past, present and future. If this is true, what did god stand to gain by fucking over Job? He KNEW ahead of time that Job would not turn against him. Was God trying to prove something to Satan? If God is all powerful, why would he need to prove anything to anybody? How is it that Satan [who is supposedly inferior to God] was able to goad God into treating one of his true believers so poorly? If God truly cared about you, he wouldn't treat you like that just to prove a point to someone he supposedly created and has complete control over. Tommy 01/15 8:16 PM I would just like to say that you [and all your sparring partners] have made this posting station so interesting! I have really enjoyed reading them. You all seem to be highly intelligent and well-versed in your areas of interest. What is controversial about today's daily scripture? I think were all in sync about the birthday suit issue! Tommy. I just have to say-I'm with the others that say that they don't believe for a minute that you are a Satanist. At one time or another have you or have you not considered yourself a born-again Christian? I think you're a thinker, who dislikes organized religion, and it drives you nuts that people fol- low blindly, but your a Christian, none-the-less. Or maybe it's just that you're so darned charming? Anyway, please keep writing and we'll keep reading. Mary-Alice 01/15 9:35 Pm I promise you, as long as people let ignorance and fear cloud their thinking, I will continue to write. As long as self-righteous individuals try to limit my freedoms, I will continue to write. Also, I resent being called a Christian. Tommy 01/18 8:06 AM Tommy's verse of the day; Proverbs 23:4 "Do not toil to get wealth; surrender that personal ambition." This verse simply means that you are not to strive to better yourself. That you should remain poor and dependent on God and the Church. The people who wrote the Bible weren't the most knowledgeable people to ever walk the earth, but they knew that it is much easier to control a poor and hungry person than a person who's life is giving him riches and pleasure without the help of God. Why doesn't God want you to succeed in life? Without hard work and effort, a person will go nowhere except down. Will God provide for you? I don't think so. The next time your rent is due, tell the landlord that God is going to pay it. The next time your children are hungry, tell them to get some food from God, maybe he'll send Jesus down to earth to perform his famous one fish/loaf of bread, feed the multitudes trick. Of course if you do this, you will be homeless and hungry. YOU have to provide for yourself! Alas, God has forbidden you to strive for success. It is not up to you to question God's words, only to obey them. I'll tell you what, I'm in a rather generous mood today, so I'm going to help you out, and try to make you look worthy in the eyes of your Lord. I am going to see to it that you do not prosper beyond the limits set by the Almighty. So, SEND ME ALL YOUR MONEY! Any money you have left over after you pay your bills is mine. It is God's will that I receive your cash! Don't upset God, he can get pretty nasty, so you'd better send your money today! Don't hesitate, God is watching! Tommy 01/18 12:20 Tommy, your a riot! Chuckling at your last post. Please keep writing, we need more people like you around here. Matt 01/18 5:08 PM Tommy, quit it...Why do you continually twist God's word? God said that he wishes above all things that you are to prosper...How could you post that horrible and wicked note? I won't stop praying for you!! I will not, I wish you'd quit it. I don't hate you, I love you, I care for you, I want for you to have the same love I do, FIND JESUS, my brother you desperately need him; loose that sarcasm. Please! Please! Please! Shawn 01/18 6:29 PM If you are not supposed to strive for success, how does your God propose you achieve it? Is God going to come to earth and give you a 51% share in a major corporation? Are riches going to fall from the sky? Will a house suddenly appear for you out of nowhere? Is Jesus going to come to earth and feed your entire family from one bologna sandwich and a can of coke? Face the truth, this is not going to happen. If you spend your life waiting for God to provide for you, that's exactly what will happen, you will spend your life waiting. How long are you willing to wait? Tommy P.S. Can I get some fries with those prayers. 01/19 7:44 AM Tommy, What he means, is not to toil, overwork for great wealth, because what good is all that extra wealth going to be, if we wasted our entire lives to work towards it, and all the while lost our own souls? Where would we be then? Kevin 01/19 2:10 PM What good is extra wealth? Don't you want to provide for your family? Don't you want your loved ones to be able to lead a comfortable lifestyle after you are gone?The word "strive" means "to try very hard", it doesn't mean "surrender your entire life to the task." You shouldn't try to change the meanings of words like that. God don't like it. Refer to my post on the 11th to find out what your punishment will be for the sin you have just committed. Anyone who is against wealth is obviously poor. Tommy Here are some more of my favorite verses: John 8:59 "They picked up stones to hurl at Him: But Jesus concealed Himself and passed out of the temple." This verse relates a tale about a day in the life of Jesus. It seems as though Jesus was hanging around the temple and telling anyone who would listen his "I'm the son of God" stories. The priests at the temple took offense to his obviously blasphemous remarks, and proceeded to deal with the young scalawag in orderly fashion by stoning him to death. Now, instead of proving his claims of divinity by performing a miracle or something, Jesus decided to use a little common sense and chose to hike up his skirt and hightail it out of there. It is said that you could hear his screams for blocks around while Jesus set a new record for the 1/4 mile. Deuteronomy 27:21 "'Cursed be he who lies with any kind of animal!' And the people shall say, 'Amen!'" This verse states that having sex with pets and barnyard animals is a no-no. [although man is considered an animal too, but I won't go into that] This one really ought to disturb some of those good 'ol boys who live in the deep south. Why did God feel the necessity to tell his "sheep" this. I know that God's earliest followers weren't the brightest folks to ever walk the earth, but couldn't they figure this one out on their own? Common sense should tell you that going to bed with animals is wrong, especially with the one's that can talk, like parrots. Can you imagine how embarrassing it would be if you were having an affair with your pet bird and he told on you? Let's say you have a friend over your to house. You get up and leave the room to get a glass of water, and the bird starts squawking "Help! Help! He fucks me when your not here." "Hey man, how did you teach your parrot to say that?" "He didn't teach me, He's really fucking me! Call 911! Call 911!" Boy, would your face be red. Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one who's testicles have been crushed or severed shall enter the Lord's congregation." It would seem that you've got to have a strong and active member to hang out with the Lord. The Lord don't want no limp dicks in church. How can you fuck over your congregation if you can't get it up? Not to mention all those lovely young altar boys. Exodus 22:18 "Allow no sorceress to live." All you witches better watch out! The Lord wants you dead. Remember the witch hunts? It's verses like this one that give the mentally unstable the go ahead to commit unspeakable acts against the innocent. Proverbs 29:23 "A man's pride will bring him low, but the lowly in spirit obtains honour." It's verses like this one that makes Christianity so popular with the masses. By bestowing honour on those who have done nothing to deserve it, and at the same time, reducing the worth of those who are truly deserving, the common man is able to feel that he is important. It is this false sense of importance and "holier than thou" mentality that Christians cling to and use to justify their worthless lives. Genesis 38:8-10 "Judah then told Onan, 'Go to your brother's widow; fulfill to her the duty of a brother in law and raise a family for your brother.' But, knowing the offspring would not be his, Onan, whenever he went in to his brother's widow, spilled his sperm upon the ground, to prevent his brother's wife from having children. His behavior was wicked in the sight of the Lord, so he ended his life." Killed for spilling his seed on the ground, eh? I wonder if that covers masturbation? If it does, we're all dead! Deuteronomy 14:8-9 "The hog is unclean because it divides the hoof but does not chew the cud; of their flesh you must not eat nor may you touch their carcass. Of the creatures that live in the water, those that have fins and scales you may eat, but whatever does not have fins and scales is unclean to you, you shall not eat of it." What? No ham, bacon, shrimp, lobster or crab? And just when that new Surf & Turf restaurant opened up down the street. It looks like the Lord doesn't like football either. No more tossing of the old pigskin. I wonder how many of you I will see in Hell just because you had a BLT? 2 Kings 2:23-24 "When he left there for Bethel, and was on his way, some youths came out of the city and poked fun at him, saying 'go up, baldy; go up, baldy!' As he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the forest and tore up 42 of the boys." Sheesh! You would think that an all-powerful, all-knowing deity wouldn't be so sensitive about male pattern baldness. Not only is God the president of the Hair Club for deities, he's also a client. Matthew 5:5 "Blessed be the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." The only thing the meek will inherit is a footprint on their backsides. 6. What is evil? No single character [real or imagined] throughout history has been condemned and persecuted with as much vigor and sheer determination as the Dark Lord. Satan has been forced to shoulder the blame for every bad thing that has happened to mankind since he was invented [for just this purpose]. He is the world's scapegoat. What crimes did Satan commit that could possibly cause Christians to hate and persecute him so? Why is the name "Satan" synonymous with evil? According to Christian mythology, Satan was at one time the number one angel, God's right hand man. He had a free run of Heaven [as long as he O.K.'d his requests with God first], he got to hang out with the Heavenly Host all day long, work on his tan, play some golf, catch up on a little light reading, but he wasn't happy. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? If Heaven is such a wonderful place [as Christians would have you believe it is], how could anyone be unhappy there? Well it's obvious that Satan wasn't happy. He got tired of blindly following God's orders. He wasn't content to sit idly by and watch someone else make the rules for him. He had his own ideas, and didn't need someone else to do his thinking for him. He wanted to have a go at this "creating" and "ruling" stuff. So Satan gathered together some of the other free spirited angels [who, to God's dismay, were also unhappy with the way things were run in Heaven] , and he organized a little revolt. I picture it as being a little like the Vietnam war protests of the 60's. The rebellious angels, led by Satan, marched around Heaven with signs, shouted catchy slogans, and mainly disturbed the peace and thumbed their noses at the "Establishment." Now God, being a jealous god, and having an ego the size of the universe, coupled with what is obviously a lack of self- esteem [seems like a contradiction, but that's God for you], didn't take kindly to Satan's plans and banished him and his cronies from Heaven. So what? This is what Satan wanted, a place he could call his own. But now God had competition. He didn't like that either. He had to do something, and do it fast. He spoke to his agents on earth and said "Dis guy Satan is musclin' in on my territory, I want youse guys should take care of him." Now, Satan wasn't as easy a target as they had originally thought. It seems as though God's goon squad wasn't able to "Rub dis joker out" as God had given them orders too. Not being able to physically remove the problem, a new plan was needed. After studying the demographics and consulting a marketing expert they started a vicious smear campaign against Satan that continues to this day. They figured that if they couldn't remove the thorn from their sides, they could slander their opponent's good name and make it politically incorrect to be associated with Satan. [This practice is still used by politicians today.] So, what actually were Satan's crimes? He thought for himself. He preferred to accomplish things on his own, without the help of his "father". He was clever, ambitious, proud, he was noble, and he had a sense of humor. For these things, and these things alone he was damned. A person who possesses these characteristics in today's society is called an achiever, a doer, and he is admired and respected by his peers. He is a leader of men, a thinker, a creator, and he is definitely not a Christian. Christianity has forbidden these qualities in it's followers. They don't want another Satan on their hands. This raises a very important question. Is thinking and acting for yourself now to be considered evil? The dictionary defines the word "evil" as "anything that is morally bad or wrong." By who's moral standards are we to judge what is evil? God's? I think not. I personally wouldn't want to live my life under the guidance of someone as jealous, petty, and vindictive as that, or anyone else for that matter. Who is qualified to judge what is good or bad, right or wrong, for another individual? Many people [politicians, special interest groups, fanatics] feel That they are qualified. They try to legislate morality, a concept that can not, and has not worked. Man will always find ways to satisfy his desires, whether they are legal or not. By making our natural desires [and ways to express those desires] illegal, you only promote crime. The concepts of good and evil are subjective. A person must decide for himself what is good or bad for his own circumstances. If you judge your actions by the standards set by others, then you are not, and never will be a Satanist. This next set of conversations deal with the topic of evil: 01/16 9:51 AM Tommy, how can anyone worship Satan? I can't understand why anyone would want to be involved with evil. Don't fall for Satan's tricks, he is a liar and he wants to make you suffer the same fate he has. Surrender to God before it's too late. Mike 01/16 1:34 PM As I have continuously said, Satanists do not worship Satan! "Satanism demands study, not worship"-Anton LaVey. I bend my knees and grovel before no one. What do you consider to be evil? Is thinking for yourself "evil"? Is providing for yourself, and not relying on a god to provide for you "evil"? Is being happy "evil"? Good and evil are subjective, by whose definition of evil should I go by? Yours? God's? No, I have my own definition of evil. For me, evil is stupidity, dependence, blindness, self-deceit. As for Suffering the same fate as Satan, I could think of worse things. Tommy 01/17 7:51 AM That's where you have been misled. Good and evil are not subjective, they are much like the "given" in a geometry theorem. That which causes harm to anyone or anything is evil. Period. Mike 01/17 3:22 PM I have to disagree. If a man rapes or kills [or harms in any way] someone close to me, that person deserves harm in return. Plain and simple. It is not "evil" to harm the rapist, the molester of children, or the murderer. It is justice. If a person goes out of their way to do me wrong, or harm me in any way, not only will I return harm to them, I will return it to them repeatedly about the head and neck. Does this make me evil? If in your eyes it does, so be it. I will wear the mantle of evil proudly. It basically boils down to this; Good is what you like, evil is what you don't like. There are many things considered evil by Christians, that I do not find evil in the least. Sex [premarital or otherwise], certain types of music, prostitution, strippers, free thought and the list goes on and on. Tommy 01/18 7:58 AM I never really thought of it like that. I suppose that, in that sense you are right, Very well put. Howard 01/19 4:32 PM Satan is evil. God is good. You are being fooled by Satan, he is the deceiver and capable of great evil. God is the way, it is impossible for Him to do evil, the Bible says so. Come to God before it's too late. I do not want to see you fall prey to evil, it will ruin your life. Susan 01/19 7:54 PM Define evil. Tommy 01/19 9:42 PM Evil is doing bad things to people or causing bad things to happen to them. Killing is evil. Lying is evil. Deceiving people is evil. This is what Satan does, he wants to hurt you. God is the opposite, he would never hurt anyone. Susan 01/20 8:12 AM God would never hurt anyone? Where did you get that from. Tommy 01/20 7:22 PM From the Bible. It says that God loves us and would never hurt us. Susan 01/20 8:56 PM OK then, let's take a quick look at God in the Bible shall we? I'm sure you will find it enlightening. I'm sure you are familiar with the story of Jericho where God had Joshua kill every man, woman, child and animal in the town. That's right, they even killed all the animals. [Joshua 6:21] When the slaughter was done they took the towns treasures and deposited it in "the treasury of the house of the Lord." [Joshua 6:24] So, your merciful and loving God orders the entire town killed and their gold and silver stolen. Murder and robbery. You don't consider that evil? It doesn't stop at Jericho though. He does the same thing at Ai [Joshua 8:2], at Makkedah [Joshua 10:28], at Libnah [Joshua 10:29-30], at Lachish [Joshua 10:31-32], at Eglon [Joshua 10:34-35], at Hebron [Joshua 10:36-37], at Debir [Joshua 10:38-39], and the surrounding countryside [Joshua 10:40], from Kadeshbarnea unto Gaza, and all the land of Goshen and Gibeon [Joshua 10:41], at Hazor [Joshua 11:11], all the cities of the king of Hazor, Madon, Shimron, and Achsaph [Joshua 11:12-14], and the cities of the Anakims [Joshua 11:21]. Quite a little campaign of destruction wouldn't you say? General God had whole villages wiped out and gave orders to his army to commit atrocities rivaling, and more often surpassing those of Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, and other insane dictators. Instead of being worshiped, God should be tried for war crimes. It's not only in war where God shows his evil nature and penchant for killing. He sets up the death penalty for such "crimes" as adultery [Leviticus 20:10], homosexuality [Leviticus 20:13], picking up sticks on the sabbath [Exodus 31:14], being disrespectful to your parents [Exodus 21:15,17], being a witch [Exodus 22:18], not fathering children with your dead brother's wife [Genesis 38:7-10], calling a guy 'baldy' [2 Kings 2:23-24]. It's not only disregard for the laws of the Bible that will get you in dutch with God, he also takes a dim view of any kind of free thought or action. Remember what he did to Satan? All Satan did was disagree with God and the poor guy's been persecuted ever since. Not only will he judge from a distance, but sometimes he gets directly involved. God hardened Pharaoh's heart [Exodus 10:27] to keep him from letting the Hebrews go, then he killed every first-born Egyptian child [Exodus 12:29]. He sent a flood to wipe out every creature on earth. Many innocent children and animals drowned in that one. He has sent plagues against defenseless animals [Exodus 9:3]. He happily wiped out men, women, children, animals and plants [Exodus 9:25] in a vicious hailstorm that even "broke down every tree", and then sent locusts [Exodus 10:12] to finish off any plants left by the hail" He also abetted the Israelites in stealing gold and silver from the Egyptians [Exodus 11:2-3]. He has made deformed and handicapped children on purpose, and then bragged about it [Exodus 4:11]. God also condones slavery and the beating of those slaves [Exodus 21:20-21]. He would visit the iniquities of the father upon the innocent children to the third and fourth generations [Exodus 20:5], and there's many other horrible deeds committed by your loving and caring God that due too space requirements I have neglected to mention, but I think you can understand the gist of my argument without them. So you see, by your own definition, "evil is doing bad things to people or causing bad things to happen to them", God is most certainly evil. Tommy 02/11 8:45 AM I have a lot of questions. I hope you don't mind but I am really curious. Why are Satanists obsessed with dark, gloomy, and evil things? Why do you all wear only black? I've heard Heavy Metal and it's lyrics are totally about evil things and the dark side of life. Do you like vampires and werewolves and other creatures of the night? Is being a Satanist a way of getting closer to the darkside? Tina 02/11 12:05 PM What a person wears, listens to, reads, or finds aesthetically pleasing is a matter of personal taste. Satanists are not obsessed with "dark, gloomy things." Satanist are not obsessive about anything, except perhaps for personal freedom. Satanists also do not wear only black [although I must admit, most of my wardrobe does tend to consist of colors of a darker hue] and listen to "Heavy Metal." I do like heavy metal, but I also love the blues and of course, the true music of Satanists, classical. [Mozart being my favorite] I personally do like to read about vampires, werewolves, ghosts, goblins and all the creatures of the night. This is a personal like [I've loved vampire stories since I was a child], and has nothing to do with my religion. Satanism is about reality, and it doesn't concern itself with myths of any kind, [except as a form of entertainment] and a Satanist never confuses myth with reality. Tommy 7. Masturbation and the fear of sex One of the fallacies concerning Satanists is that we do not know what the Christian religion is about. On the contrary, most Satanists are well versed on the tenets of Christianity. This is one of the main reasons we are Satanists. We have seen first hand the hypocrisy inherent in the Christian religion. As with all abstinence = spirituality religions, Christians have honed guilt into a razor sharp weapon. They wield it against each other in an attempt to cut down the natural desires of their fellow man. "What are the 7 deadly sins of Christianity? Gluttony, avarice, sloth, lust... They are urges every man feels at least once a day. How could you set yourself up as the most powerful institution on earth? You first find out what every man feels at least once a day, establish that as a sin, and set yourself up as the only institution capable of pardoning that sin."-Anton LaVey The Christian and Catholic churches seek to control the sex drives of their respective herds. Christians and Catholics [or any God worshiping religion for that matter] are not allowed to engage in premarital sex, and Catholics are not allowed to use birth control [this is to insure a constant influx of new Catholics]. This is the ultimate in control, it is however, something that cannot be realistically accomplished. Man's carnal nature can, and does override the massive amount of guilt that is heaped upon the sheep. Have you ever wondered why so many Christian ministers and Catholic priests have been arrested for crimes of a sexual nature? The answer is simple; repression. If you repress a natural urge long enough, it will build up to a point where it is too powerful to control. Christians always seem to have a hard time with sex [no pun intended], and especially with the ancient taboo of masturbation. The propaganda surrounding this most natural of acts is mind-boggling. We have all heard the old wives tales concerning the punishments you can expect to receive for doing this "filthy, disgusting act." I have heard everything from "You'll grow hair on the palms of your hands" and "You'll go blind" to "God will banish you to Hell if you spill your seed on the ground." The reasons for the Church not wanting you to masturbate are simple. If you can find pleasure inside yourself [and outside of God], God will become obsolete. The only pleasure in life you should have as a Christian is the pleasure God grants you with his love and presence. As we have established before, God is a very Jealous god. He wants to be the only thing in life that can provide you with happiness. If you suddenly realize that you are able to achieve happiness and pleasure without his divine interference, you might discover that you can do other things for yourself as well. If this happens, you might also come to realize that it is the power within yourself, and your own decisions and actions that cause your life to take the shape you wish, and that you no longer need God to provide for you. You have learned that you CAN accomplish things on your own. You are on your way to becoming self-sufficient, and God is out of business. In this next set of conversations "Stephen", asks for opinions about masturbation. There were a lot of responses to Stephen's question. 99.9% of them told him it was wrong. Their responses ranged from "It's a sin to lust in your heart, and that's what you do when you fantasize while you masturbate" to "Remember what happened to Onan." A few people even said that Satan was the originator of masturbation, and if you did it you are going straight to Hell. I left those out as they were completely ridiculous and chose to use the replies of "Robert" since his responses were the most prolific and they echoed the sentiments of the other replies. 01/10 8:39 PM Hi everyone, I have a question about masturbation. What do any of you Christians think of it and is there anything that shows God is against it in the Bible? What do non-Christians think about it too. Thanks and please could I have some intellectual answers besides "it's disgusting and it's wrong!"? Thanks again. Stephen 01/11 1:42 PM There is nothing wrong with masturbating. Don't let these people force a guilt trip on you. You shouldn't be ashamed of anything that comes naturally to you and brings you pleasure. Tommy 01/12 9:57 AM God does offer counsel relating to this matter. The apostle Paul wrote of having self-control over one's own sexual desires at 1 Corinthians 7:37. Jesus said [Matt. 5:28] "but I tell you anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Jesus also said at Matt. 15:19 "for out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." Paul again wrote [1 Cor. 6:18] saying "Flee sexual immorality, all other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." Sexual temptation is everywhere in our day. Paul telling us to "flee" is good advice, though hard to do. I find it easier to avoid these temptations if I avoid movies, music, anything that would stir sexual desires. Christian sisters could make this easier for us brothers, and the other way around, by heeding biblical counsel to dress modestly. We should help each other to remain pure in our hearts. Keeping in mind 1 Cor. 10:13 is also helpful. It says "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it." Hope this helps you and others who have a problem in this area. Robert 01/13 7:32 AM Are you saying that you don't listen to music or go to the movies? That's a bit extreme don't you think? Tommy 01/14 8:49 AM Hi Tommy. In response to your question "Are you saying that you don't listen to music or go to the movies?" I fight hard daily to be serious about Matt. 22:37 in ALL aspects of my life. When I first became a follower of Jesus I didn't really seek out bible counsel, let alone apply it to my life. I nearly fell away because I had no root, [See Matt. 13:5-6] I relied on my own understanding which is another way of doing whatever I wanted. [See Prov. 14:12] Over the years I have come to appreciate all the loving advice God has for His people within His word, His love letters to us. So regarding movies & music I let Phillippians 4:8 be my guide. "Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praise worthy--think about such things." I listen to Christian music only. [See Psalms 150:1-6] Most music on the radio where i live promotes sin. When I do rent movies it is from my Christian book store, not from the world. All day long I walk among the hurting and the lost. I see the walking wounded every day who have gone the ways of the world and are reaping the bitter consequences. It breaks my heart & the heart of Jesus. [See Gal. 6:7] Why would I seek out worldly entertainment? I should be disgusted by it. [See Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:14-15, 10:5] Paul wrote"Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the day's are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is." [Eph. 5:15-17] It is all a question of priorities. Sad to say, but today, many people in the Church are like those of the Laodecian church Jesus rebuked at Rev. 3:15-16. They are lukewarm, at a time when our hearts should be on FIRE for our savior, we are apathetic, becoming a friend of the world in what we do and say. Many of my Christian friends spent more time being passified by the t.v. than drawing closer to the Lord. They know the t.v. guide cover to cover but are ill equipped to share the REAL, TRUE & PURE gospel to a sad and dying world. We are responsible to this generation of soul's. But the world looks at us and sees a mirror reflection of themselves. How truly sad. Tommy, don't look to other Christians to set the standards in your life. Look prayerfully to HIS LIVING WORD. You may have written me off as a radical a while ago. I hope this is not so. We live in a time of spiritual warfare!! Satan's new tool is compromise and it is far too effective. Tommy, PLEASE let me know what you think of what I have shared. I am truly concerned! If you disagree, please tell me. Show me with scripture so we know it is of God. I love you. Rob 01/14 12:10 PM Robert, What can I say, you have totally gone off the deep end. What do you do all day, hide in the house from the big, bad, wicked world? The world is full of beauty and pleasure. You should embrace it instead of locking yourself away. The Bible was written a long time ago by people with limited [as opposed to today] intelligence and technology. It contains many outdated and backward ideals and moral codes. The rules and regulations of our distant ancestors no longer apply to us. Society and it's attitudes have changed greatly over the past 2,000 years, and I believe for the most part it has changed for the better. I Will agree that there is a lot of trouble in the world today, but waiting for some non-existant deity to fix things is a waste of time. If your God wanted things to be better he would do something about it. Since he hasn't lifted a finger to help, WE must help OURSELVES. It's the only way things will ever change. Tommy 01/15 9:51 AM Tommy, I made the improper assumption that you were a Christian. Based on what you said regarding the Bible that could not be the case. Tommy, we live in a world that has, as a whole, rejected Bible counsel and taken up a "If it feels good, do i" lifestyle that you seem to be in favor of. But man's way does not seem to be working too well. If people practiced God's Biblical advice there would be no venereal disease, AIDS, abortion, alcoholism, starvation, immorality, crime, suicide, you name it. Of course Jesus never said that the whole world would accept Him or His ways. But I know for myself, and others who really strive to accept Bible counsel to our lives that it is a way of life that works like no other. If the Bible is all wrong, and merely inspired by men, I will die a happy man having served my neighbor. But if the Bible is right, I will inherit eternal life. What of you and your beliefs? What if you are wrong and the Bible is right? I live to share this truth with people like you. There is no more serious choice one can make in their life, to be real with Jesus. Robert 01/14 2:33 PM It is an impractical and impossible wish to hope that all men are going to follow your beliefs. You cannot change the carnal nature of man. You have to accept the facts and learn to deal with them. If the world was, as you described you want it to be, it would be a most sterile and boring place. Whatever restrictions you try to force upon humanity, man's carnal nature will out. There has always been crime, starvation, suicide and all the other things you mentioned and there probably always will be. These things were around during the time of Jesus [and before], and during the time of the Church's stranglehold on society, so blaming them now on a lack of adherence to Bible counsel is an opinion without merit. The Christian & Catholic Churches have committed many horrendous acts against humanity [Inquisitions, witch hunts, crusades, ect...] and they profess a deep and spiritual relationship with God. Your fanatical reverence to God with his inhuman and unnatural laws is not the answer to our problems. I feel it is one of the causes. You can't change human nature. Tommy 01/23 2:21 PM I've seen a lot of conversations on the board here regarding sex. The one thing most of you fail to realize is that sex outside of marriage is wrong. It goes against God. Lust is a tool of the Devil. If you surrender to your desires then you will be playing the Devil's game. he wants to lead you away from God. The next time you feel lustful urges, stop and ask God to help you. It is through His divine influence that you will be saved. Bill 01/23 5:10 PM Were you a virgin when you got married? Tommy 01/23 9:45 PM I'll be honest with you. No, I was not. I am only a man and I am not perfect. I feel a deep sense of shame for this but also a great joy because I know God has forgiven me. I have made mistakes in the past, and sometimes I still make mistakes, but I know that God with His infinite mercy will forgive me. Our young people are in dire straights. Every time you turn on the tv you see sex, sex, and more sex. It's everywhere you look. It's destroying the moral fiber of our youth. In school they have sex classes and they even pass out condoms to the students. I can't believe it. Condoms in school! It's immoral and wrong. Our government should do something about it. Every time I think about it I want to cry. Bill 01/24 8:13 AM You fucking hypocrite! You make me sick. You are telling people that sex is wrong, and trying to make them stop doing the same thing you did, and that's have sex before marriage. You can't have the government legislate morality. Just because you have a hang up about sex, doesn't give you the right to tell someone else not to do it. Why do the actions of another bother you so? I for one, applaud the teaching of safe sex in our schools and the handing out of condoms to students. Teenage pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases are at an all time high. you can't stop people from having sex. It's a natural urge in all of us. [remember, you did it too] No amount of spiritual hypocrisy can change that. If we educate our young people about the dangers of unprotected sex, it will help. Telling them not to do it will only make them want to do it even more. Tommy 02/03 8:53 AM The problem with sexual promiscuity stems from the fact that there is no more prayer in school. They've got to bring prayer back in schools, or at least the choice for it. They've got to do the flag salute too. Our educational system is rotten to the core now because of the chaotic messes like sex advocation and stuff. Tuan 02/02 10:11 AM "Sex advocation and stuff?" What do you mean by that? As for prayer in schools, it they took the time to let every person of every different faith pray, there would be no time left for learning. or do you feel all people should be forced to pray to your God? Tommy 02/02 3:15 PM Sex advocation is like distributing condoms in schools. That's symbolism over substance because it only advocates that kids are going to do it anyway. There is only one true God, the creator. If everybody followed Him, there would be no problems. Tuan 02/02 4:04 PM Don't confuse education with advocation. The fact is that teens are going to have sex whether we want them to or not. It is our duty to educate them on the risks involved [pregnancy, disease] and to teach them to be responsible. [ie.. use of a condom] That is the reality of the situation. Your fascist plan of complete control in the name of your God, quite frankly, disgusts me. Tommy 02/02 5:22 PM Reality is, that the educational system is corrupt. You said the kids are going to do 'it' anyway. See what I mean? You EXPECT them to do it, therefore, you WANT them to do it. We have to PREVENT them by teaching them the basic values that were taught in the 40's and 50's. Tuan 02/02 7:01 PM Expecting something to happen, and wanting something to happen, are two different things. Get real. What do you have against sex anyway? Sex is great! I hate to burst your bubble, but there was sex back in the 40's and 50's too. Tommy 02/02 9:15 PM Well, yes, sex CAN be great, but you see the fault of the school system is the fact that they wish to advocate such a thing so early in kid's life- times. The results are hazardous...abortion, pregnancy, choices, ect. Back in the 40's and 50's, even though there were no epidemic diseases like AIDS, kids still did not mess around. They were more responsible for their own lives and did not depend on government intervention with any 'protection.' The same with guns. In places where the citizens own guns, the lesser the crime. Tuan 02/02 9:47 PM You're still confusing education with advocation. Get a dictionary and look up the words, will ya? Are you actually naive enough to think that kids weren't having sex in the 40's or 50's? Ask someone who was a teen during that generation, they'll tell you that there was plenty of sex going on. The only difference was, if a young girl got pregnant back then, instead of going on Oprah and telling her story to millions of tv zombies, they quietly shipped her off to her maiden aunt's house. Tommy P.S. Under your list of hazardous results, you listed "choices." I guess under supreme rule by Herr God, having a choice would be hazardous. [to God at any rate] 02/03 8:10 AM If kids in the 40's and 50's messed around a lot, how come the population back then was less? Tuan 02/03 1:42 PM Gee, you got me there. Sheesh! Is that the best you can do? "How come the population back then was less?" Geez, that is so stupid that it doesn't deserve an answer. Ok, you seem to think you have all the answers. What would you do about teenage promiscuity? Tommy 02/03 3:30 PM I have a solution. Put those who are already 'doing it' in detention everyday after school. That way they might learn something. Tuan 02/03 4:11 PM Are you serious? That's your solution? How do you know which kids are already doing it? What if they drop out of school? Tommy 02/03 4:55 PM Yes, I am serious. Instead of giving out condoms, schools should give out discipline. If we take away their free time, they won't have time to have sex. POLL: Teens Have More Sex Than Ever Teenagers are having sex more than ever, many of them unprotected, despite the risks of AIDS and pregnancy. A Time magazine/CNN poll says. Fifty-five percent of 16- and 17- year-olds surveyed said thay have had sexual intercourse, but only sixty-one percent said they used birth control every time. The poll of 500 teenagers appears in Time's latest issue, on newstands Monday. A copy of the survey was released in advance. Nineteen percent of 13- to 15- year-olds said they have had sex. Twenty-three percent of all teenagers said they have had sex with 2-3 people, while fifteen percent said they have had intercourse with five or more partners. Parental warning seems to have little effect. Of those polled, seventy-one percent had been told by their parents to wait until they were older before having sex, and more than half had been cautioned not to have sex until they were married. About 6 out of 10 said they had used some form of birth control every time; twenty-six percent said they used birth control sometimes, and thirteen percent said they have never used it. The teens were almost evenly split between those who said it is fine for children aged 16 and under to have sex and those who said they should be 18 or older, When asked what motivated them to have sex, seventy-six percent of the girls and eighty percent of the boys said they "were curious and wanted to experiment." Fifty-eight percent of both girls and boys "wanted to be more popular or impress their friends." Fifty percent of the girls and sixty-three percent of the boys had sex "because they were in love", while thirty-five percent of the girls and sixty-five percent of the boys cited peer pressure as their reason. I think this survey says it all. Our country is morally and spiritually bankrupt. Tuan 02/03 6:34 PM I told you you can't stop them, but if we educate them and make birth control available to them, they just might act responsibly. Tommy 02/03 7:12 PM Birth control is already available. If kids want to take that risk, let them, but don't give them condoms for free. Make them earn them. Tuan 02/03 7:45 PM And how would a person go about "earning" a condom? Tommy 02/03 8:23 PM By merit. By getting a job, instead of being promiscuous. Tuan 02/03 9:31 PM You are totally ridiculous! Tommy 02/04 9:15 AM Here's something you'll probably approve of too. INSTRUCTIONS FOR ORDERING YOUR OWN PERSONALIZED GAY CHECKS: 1. Enclose a voided check and deposit slip from your existing check supply. 2. Indicate any printing changes and starting check number on the form below. 3. Enclose another check made payable to "In the Pink' for $19.95 per order. 4. Mail to In the Pink, P.O. Box 5794, dept. 2667, Bethesda, Maryland 20814 5. if you have any questions at all about your order, call mike at (202)n 547-2342 any time. 200 checks per box. Confidentiality of all bank information is guaranteed. Please allow 6-8 weeks for delivery. Maryland residents add $1.00 per order state sales tax. For security, orders will only be mailed to the address printed on the checks. CALL US AT (202) 547-2342 WITH ANY QUESTION.....A REPLY TODAY IS A MOVEMENT TOMORROW! Ahem...this speaks for itself. Tuan 02/04 3:21 PM What's wrong with homosexuals having checking accounts? Tommy 02/04 5:11 PM I'll bet you want one of those gay checks. Tuan 02/04 9:33 PM Ooh, clever comeback. Your ignorance and intolerance is a credit to Christianity. God must be proud of you. Tommy 02/06 1:12 PM HIV is easier to get than you think. AIDS is God's way of punishing fornication. Trista 02/06 5:15 PM That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read, but let's look beyond that, shall we? Let's assume that your statement is true, God did create HIV to punish fornication. Now, I know [and you do to] that there are many children who are infected with AIDS. They did not contract the disease through fornication, many of them got it from blood transfusions [and the rest got it from their mothers]. How can God justify this? God, being the all-knowing god that he is, HE KNEW, BEFORE he created HIV, that innocent children would get it. Did this knowledge deter him? NO! Did knowing that innocent children would suffer a slow and painful death cause him to find another way to deal with fornicators? NO! If God is truly all-powerful, he could have introduced a disease that ONLY KILLED FORNICATORS, right? But he didn't. Instead he chose to let innocent people suffer. Real nice guy. Makes Hitler look like a boy scout. Tommy 8. What about love? To the average Christian, Satanism is synonymous with hate, and therefore, it is assumed that a Satanist cannot and does not love anyone or anything but himself. This assumption, like most made about Satanists, is totally wrong! Being human, a Satanist has the same feelings and emotions that all people do. He is, however, more selective as to the recipients of his feelings. "Love thy neighbor as you would yourself" the Bible tells all Christians. What if your neighbor is a child molester, a junkie, a sneak thief or a murderer? Am I supposed to love this despicable creature? Am I supposed to look beyond his personality and try to see the soul underneath the sick exterior? Am I supposed to forgive him? Am I supposed to turn a blind eye to his repulsive behavior and befriend him? Am I supposed to invite the pervert over for dinner? If you're a Christian you are. No matter how hard you try, you can't love everyone, it's impossible, and why would you want to anyway? By giving your love indiscriminately to everyone you meet, you lessen it's worth. It becomes watered down and meaningless. A Satanist prefers to give his love sparingly and wholeheartedly to those that deserve it. Love given to someone who won't appreciate it is wasted. What about hate? If you love everyone who is left for you to hate? If you try to repress your hatred, it will eventually build up to the boiling point and explode, causing great harm, usually to the ones you profess to love the most. A Satanists vents his anger and hatred on his enemies, thereby freeing himself from the emotional and physical damage that can be caused by keeping your emotions penned up inside you. If I had a dollar for every time I saw a story on the news, or read in the paper about some guy who went nuts and took an assault rifle and opened fire on innocent people, I would be a fabulously rich man. Friend and neighbors always describe the perp as being a quite guy, who never got mad, never showed his anger. No one can believe that he was capable of this kind of behavior, he was such a nice guy. Everyone gets angry. That's a fact! Everyone at one time or another has hated. It's only natural. What's unnatural is trying to keep these feelings locked up inside of you by denying that they exist. This type of behavior will only lead to emotional distress, a reduction in the quality of life and the view of your neighbor with cross-hairs on his face. I came across a conversation between "Deborah" and "Adam" on one of the religion subjects on the bulletin board. Adam is also a Satanist, and since he had left the conversation and Deborah was still looking for answers, I obliged her. 01/12 5:06 PM I know Adams been busy posting in his "other" territory, and much too busy to answer some interesting questions via E-mail. I may have hit a sensitive area. I was merely trying to learn more about this young man. I do not know enough about his "religion" to argue, nor do I have a thorough knowledge of the Bible to extend. From what I have read on the Satanism subjects on the 'other' topic, they do not worship Satan but they unfortunately seem to enjoy songs with 'dark' lyrics and movies with violence, ect... I would like to know if they can show love and compassion to others, and contribute to the world in a way that is kind and helpful. I may not agree with the way other religions..... Buddists, Muslim, Mormons, ect, ect, do business, but I feel that if they are not doing evil in God's eyes, then I leave them alone. My quest is against EVIL...are Satanists evil? I don't hear them speak of pleasant things...I think that most of them are young, bratty kids. Where does love fit in? Is there anyone out there who is a Satanist that can answer this for me? Deborah 01/12 7:32 PM Since Adam isn't here, and you asked, let me fill you in on Satanic love. The difference between Christian love and Satanic love is that Christians say they love everyone, and Satanists only love those who earn and deserve their love.It is ridiculous and a virtual impossibility to think you can love everybody. If anything is given too freely it loses it's true meaning, and diminishes in worth, therefore a Satanist's love is felt stronger and means more than the watered down love of a Christian. Are Satanists evil? Evil is subjective. Most Christians feel that anything that is not theirs is evil. Tommy 01/12 8:31 PM Thank for answering Tommy...I understand from Adam that you are an old person as I. As I wrote to Adam, I, personally, do not claim to love everyone, as in, the WHOLE WIDE WORLD, but I have the capacity to if I met any one individual, even a Satanist!!!! Ya know? Could a Satanist love a Christian? This is fun isn't it? Or is FUN prohibited? Deborah 01/12 9:48 PM A Satanist can love anyone he/she chooses to, even a Christian. My mom is a Christian [although she's not a nut about it] and I love her very much. I do not love her because some old mythology book told me too, I love her for all the things she has done for me and all the love she has given me. I can also hate, an emotion that is forbidden to Christians. Would you love the person who raped and murdered your children if you met him? Tommy 01/13 9:44 AM Why do you think Christians are forbidden to hate? I mean, we are, after all, only human...it is by the grace of God that we are able to love, even though our human minds may feel hate or contempt for someone. The Holy Spirit takes over...in my case anyway. Why do you think the Bible is mythology? What about the evidence that backs up things stated in the O.T. that has clearly been found in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Your views seem to differ greatly from Adam, your partner in crime. I am pleased to learn you LOVE!!!! Deborah 01/13 4:42 PM As a history book, the Bible is probably somewhat accurate, it is not, however, the word of some non-existant deity that created the heavens and the earth. It contains far to many inaccuracies and contradictions for it to actually be from an all-knowing deity. The Bible is merely a Farmer's Almanac for the people of that time. It is now outdated. If you believe that the Bible IS the word of God, then you as a Christian are bound by your religion to follow the laws set forth in it by God. One of his laws is to "love thy neighbor." If you are forced to love everyone indiscriminately like that, then it stands to reason that you lose your natural power of selection, and if you must love everyone, then it only stands to reason that there is no one left to hate. Tommy 01/14 11:42 AM Hi Tommy! I'm sorry you can't seem to understand, but nothing is forbidden to Christians. Through God's glory we are able to do or feel anything. We are simply commanded to love and do everything in our power to love. It isn't that hate is forbidden, such as the forbidden fruit, it is just that a heart that is actively seeking God and living by the Holy Spirit cannot hate. Chris 01/14 3:28 PM "Nothing is forbidden to Christians", "We are commanded to love". These two statements seem to contradict each other. There are a myriad of things that are forbidden to Christians. Ever read the Bible? What about the 10 commandments? They implicitly forbid certain actions. Tommy 01/14 6:53 PM Jesus died for our sins. All our sins are forgiven now and forever. A Christian can do anything he wants and God will forgive him. Chris 01/15 7:32 AM Are you saying that just because Jesus was nailed to a stick, that you can now sin with impunity, knowing all the while that you are sinning? Isn't that being totally deceitful and hypocritical to your religion and to the god that you profess to love and worship? Isn't knowingly committing a sin without a care an abomination in the sight of your Lord? Tommy 01/15 3:56 PM Yes. That's the beauty of Christianity. We are forgiven. Chris 01/15 5:10 PM Nice little loophole you got there. How did God in his infinite wisdom let that slip by him?It still seems to me that God will take a dim view of you trying to get over on him like that. Lucky for you he doesn't exist, because from what I've read about your God, he would deal with you most severely for the sins you are committing. Tommy * Chris seems to be under the impression that since Jesus died, he is now absolved of all wrong. Knowingly committing a sin under the belief that all will be forgiven is a prime example of the hypocrisy that is inherent in the Christian religion. Christians profess love for everyone, but they don't practice what they preach. I've never met a person [Christian or not] who actually feels love for every single person on earth. A Satanist is honest about his actions and feelings, Christians hide theirs behind a pile of rhetoric and doubletalk. * 9. Christian [in]tolerance & a lesson in semantics For all their talk about love and tolerance, Christians can be some of the rudest and most vicious people on earth. If your views don't match theirs, watch out! It is a common occurrence on the BB's to have the Satanic topics bombarded daily by so-called loving Christians who seem to have nothing better to do than insult people and generally make a nuisance of themselves. Their posts range from very aggressive proselytizing to name calling. What they hope to accomplish by their insane ramblings is beyond me. Do they think that they can badger a person into following their beliefs? Throughout history, the Christian and Catholic churches have been respon- sible for some of the most violent and cruel acts against humanity ever com- mitted. The crusades, the inquisitions, the witch hunts, were all perpetrated by these so-called loving children of God. It seems as though their first reaction to things that are different, is to attack. They fear what they do not know and would rather destroy it than learn about it. The first conversation is a prime example of this. "phil" starts out by attacking me, and Satanists in general because we have views that differ from his. He knows absolutely nothing about Satanism, but he condemns us never the less. Instead of a rational debate on the subject, he quickly turns his position into an argument over semantics. In the end, he admits his ignorance on the subject and leaves to do some research on the subject. Who knows? maybe he'll be back. 01/15 8:41 AM Hey Tommy, I've been reading you stuff here and on the Satan boards and frankly, I'm bored with your pathetic superficial statements and shallow arguments. Obviously you know more about typing than religion, history or life in general. I would venture to say that you enjoy agitating people more that anything and your manipulation of "John" is pretty sickening. Religious or not, using people is not the way to go in life, as you will find out. I can't believe that even a Satanist would do such a thing. As for John, I would say to him: Tommy doesn't believe half the stuff he writes. He's just trying to get a rise out of you. He's playing on your feelings and apparently getting paid for it. I think I can follow your reasoning, and getting him to read the Bible may work, but it is a long shot. But I do applaud your venturing out onto the Satan board and making noise there. It is interesting to know that in 2 or 3 years most of them won't even remember what they thought at this time. Most of them can't agree on what they believe and some of their statements are most amusing. Phil 01/15 2:15 PM It seems as though my notes have upset you. Such anger. Are you angry with me Phil? I bet you'd like to take a swing at me, wouldn't you? Tommy 01/15 3:12 PM I expected more from you. Such childish remarks from one who fancies himself knowledgeable. I certainly meant no feelings of violence to flow through the modem lines. Perhaps the big words confused you. And although your messages are far from intellectually stimulating, they do have some entertainment value. How about some real substance to your messages. Whether or not I wish to pound your head in is a moot point. [that means it doesn't matter] On the other hand, according to your religion, if one was deserving of such treatment, I would be well within my rights to do so. Am I correct, or is the mindset different? With "self" being most important to you, does it piss you off when someone shafts you or do you simply accept it as the life you choose to lead? [i.e they shafted you only because their "self" is most important to them, so you understand] Also, isn't it difficult to live life with the take, take, take attitude? These are not rhetorical questions, so some serious thought process on your part would be appreciated, if you can muster it. I'm waiting anxiously for your reply. Phil 01/15 7:47 PM So, you consider my remarks childish, while I assume you consider your personal attacks on me to be the height of maturity. Do you consider opposing views to be sufficient provocation to respond physically" I personally don't, as they provide no real harm to me. Do I get "pissed off" if someone "shafts" me? Hell yes! Do I retaliate? Hell yes! Satanists live by the law "Lex Talonis", the law of the jungle and by our version of the golden rule" Do unto others as they do unto you." It is the balance of nature that the strong prey upon the weak. Your assertion that I live my life by a "take, take, take" philosophy IS partially true. I do TAKE what I want from life instead of abasing myself and asking some non-existant deity to provide it for me. I am, however, just as capable of giving to those that I feel need and deserve it. I can tell by your notes to me that you have not been following my posts for very long. I have been posting here for some time now, and in the beginning I did post what you would consider to be "real" intellectual arguments and questions. Unfortunately, the replies I received were nonsense. Instead of logical answers to my questions, I would get replies like "God doesn't mean for us to understand his workings" or "If you haven't accepted Christ, then God has not given you the wisdom to understand these things" or, in the case of the Old Testament, "Jesus changed the laws so those no longer apply to us anymore" or they would just quote to me another cryptic scripture which really had no bearing on the original question. Since it seemed as though I wasn't about to get any kind of real answer from them, and since my agreement with John is still in effect, I decided to have some fun and post some scriptures and responses that would either make me laugh, offend someone and shock them into a response, or basically upset someone enough to where they would forget their Christian rules of love and tolerance and respond in much the same way you have. Sometimes you have to force people to break through their shells of blind faith and ignorance in order to get them to listen. Tommy 01/16 7:47 AM I've been goading you the same way you have been goading other people, so don't take the victims stance. Assuming that we are both adults, I would think that we can both take a little personal flack from each other. I am glad, however, that you could step away from the rhetoric and reply in detail. As far as opposing views being responded to physically, certainly not. Differing viewpoints are everyone's right and the exchange of such views are the only way to enlighten the masses. But words are a powerful weapon [as you well know]. Calling someone by a racial slur can result in a violent attack. If someone said to me"I'm going to kill you", I of course would defend myself. But, to answer your question, I would not strike you over a battle of words. Question: Regarding Satanism, if the individual is the most important, how do Satanists band together for common goals? Certainly there would be leaders, but wouldn't the followers desire the power of the leaders and in their quest for that power, defeat the whole purpose? Question: Do you spend your life waiting for the advantage, using it, taking what you desire and then splitting? If so, do you consider yourself a normal member of society? And, if the above does equate to you, wouldn't society in turn tear itself apart? or is it the opposite, that as long a society is not like you, you can prey [your word] upon the unsuspecting? Finally, I'm sure it is easier to follow a religion based in ones own head, with rules [for lack of a better word] and objectives created by oneself using the vague guidelines written down to be the opposite of the existing structure of ideas. [Hardly a difficult thing to do.] "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is fairly straightforward, whereas, "do unto others as they do unto you", is both reactionary and perception based, not to mention unoriginal. I would say that Satanists are looking for acceptance and credibility through the use of the word "religion", doing whatever they wish but still needing a justification in otherworldly form. Phil P.S. Why not just call yourselves Anarchists? 01/16 4:48 PM Satanists, on the whole, are solitary creatures. We do not need to be part of a group to feel "accepted". We can, however, band together to achieve a goal that is beneficial to us. We do not begrudge a person their success or power. We know that we can achieve the same status through our own devices. Satanists rise in status according to their abilities. Our "leaders" are in that position because of their abilities, and trying to usurp their leadership would not only be counterproductive to the task at hand, but couldn't realistically be achieved by a lesser individual. Next question. I do not spend my life lying in wait for an opportunity to present itself to me so that I might take advantage of it. I also do not drop to my knees and beg some unseen, or unheard from [at least in the last 2,000 years or so] God to provide things for me.I know that to get ahead in life, I must make my own opportunities. I do not actively seek out those who are weaker than me so that I might prey upon them, but if an opportunity presents itself, I will use it to my advantage. Lastly, of course it is easier to follow a path that you have chosen for yourself. Blindly following the tenets of a religion that is in essence; anti- human, is unnatural and extremely difficult. Which is why few people can do it properly. Let me assure you, Satanism is more than a philosophy, it Is a religion as it uses both ceremony and dogma. [Both of which satisfy a healthy desire in many of us for organized ritual.] Why don't we call ourselves anarchists? Because were not. Tommy 01/17 10:20 AM The existence of ritual and/or dogma does not immediately equate with religion. To do something religiously does not make it a religion. I have read the Satanists talking about x-tians [Christians] fearing what they don't understand. This can be said of most humans, so why put it in a specific contex" It's a non-statement. But if this is your feeling, let me offer the following argument: To disregard a book written/compiled in the late sixties [probably in an LSD induced fantasy], is this fear? And being wary of people who have flatly stated that they would take advantage of anyone they choose, is this paranoia" Or is the former intelligence and the latter wisdom? Now, to Satanism. It seems that someone has convinced you that one need not worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanism by definition is the worship of Satan. This is fact and not disputable. You may align yourself with Luciferians, but unless you worship Satan, you are not a Satanist. I have not read any of LaVey's writings, but unless his are the teachings of Satan [man made or through the Beast himself], then it stands to reason that he is nothing but an opportunist and you, my friend, are shackled by his confidence game. If not, and he does promote the worship of Satan, but you choose to accept only bits and pieces of his doctrine as it suits you, then you are neither true to your religion, nor a Satanist. A true Satanist would laugh you out of his house the way you talk. Have you ever been to a Black Mass? Have you ever been involved with bloodletting? Both are necessary for the appeasement of the Lord of Satanism, Lucifer. But since we have deduced that you are not a true Satanist, I am sure you have not. If I believe in bigamy, face Mecca when I pray and celebrate Hanukkah, I am neither Mormon, Muslim, nor Jewish. I am potpourri. I may have ceremony and dogma, but the religion escapes me. Religion, any religion, takes discipline, study and acceptance of the doctrines of said religion. If LaVey or Crowley have made this unnecessary, then they have done so simply to garner more people to themselves and, as you have put it before, "fill their coffers". If I had to be one or the other, I would rather be a follower of God, than a servant of man. On a lighter note, I appreciate your correspondence with me. Most people find it difficult to express themselves on such personal issues. Phil 01/17 4:32 PM First off, the Satanic Bible was not written under the influence of drugs. Drugs exert control over the user and Satanist shun such control. Why is it when you disagree with an idea, you find it necessary to degrade the person who's idea it was? For a loving, caring and forgiving Christian, you sure are prone to attack. Next, the suffix "ism" does not denote worship, it means "conduct, or theory of". The Hebrew word "Satan" translates to "enemy, or adversary", therefore, the word "Satanism" means "conduct of an adversary", not the worship of the Christian boogyman. Since we have established that Satanism is not the worship of the Christian "Devil", and since you are obviously ignorant of the tenets of Satanism, your view that I am not a Satanist, is without merit. "A Black Mass is not the magical ceremony practiced by Satanists. A Satanist would employ the use of a Black Mass as a form of psychodrama. A Black Mass is essentially a parody on the religious service of the Roman Catholic Church, and since the services of all established religions [including Christianity] are actually parodies of old pagan rituals, the Black Mass is nothing more than redundancy." - Anton LaVey. You still view things from the narrow confines of Christianity. Since Satanism does not fit your views as to what a religion is, you discount it outright. You seem particularly fond of arguing semantics, so here ya go. The word "religion" is defined as "A specific system of belief or worship, ect. built around a God, a code of ethics, a philosophy of life, ect." So you see, Satanism definitely qualifies as a religion. Tommy 01/18 10:59 AM Thin man, very thin. What fantasy are you living? Look in any encyclopedia or dictionary under "Satanism" ant it says "the worship of Satan" and a Satanist as "one who worships Satan". Why go back to the ancient Hebrew or Greek for the translation of a fairly modern word? For a lark I [jumped] encyclopedia and typed "Satanism", and guess what it said? Well, it wasn't Tommy's version of the word. I hold a bit more stock in Webster and Britannica's definition than yours. But you are correct in my ignorance, and to rectify that I shall do some research. I don't want a library worth of reading, but if you could mention 3 or 4 books that you think could clue me in I would appreciate it. [preferably in paperback, I don't want to spend too much money] Phil 01/18 7:08 PM Actually I got the definition of the word "Satan" and the suffix "ism" from Webster's dictionary. But since you are determined not to accept any other definition that the one you like, let's for the sake of argument, use your definition. Satan has been written about by many different authors and in many different guises, but there are a few qualities he possesses that seem to be universal. They include intelligence, pride, nobility, creativity, humor. Satan was a rebel, he didn't blindly follow the rules set forth, he questioned those rules. He wanted more than what God was willing to offer him. He is a man of action, as well as a thinker. He is the eternal prankster, willing to laugh at himself as well as others. His only crime was that he defied God and stood up for himself. Doesn't sound so bad to me. So if you must insist that a Satanist has to worship Satan. Then this is the Satan I choose. I'm sure that now you will say I have to worship your idea of Satan , right? Here is a list of books you can read on the subject of Satanism: THE SATANIC BIBLE by Anton Lavey THE CHURCH OF SATAN by Blanche Barton SATAN WANTS YOU by Arthur Lyons IN PURSUIT OF SATAN by Robert Hicks Tommy * Phil wasn't the only one to try to use the meanings of words to discredit my beliefs. This next little tete-a-tete with Mark is another prime example of how, when a person can't argue against the validity of my philosophies, they try to catch me off guard with semantics. * 03/ 02 11:58 AM I have known many Satanists in my life and I did not know they were such until they approached me. They believe in Satan very much and worshiped him and practiced contacting spirit guides and levitation. Why do some Satanists believe in Satan, and others say he is not real? I can understand having different views on how to worship him, but why don't all people who call themselves Satanists believe in him? There are many different Christian religions, and there are different views on how to worship God, not to say that any of them are all wrong or all right, but at least they all believe in the One and only true God. El-Shaddai-God Most High. Those who do not believe in Satan, but believe in the meaning that describes him in the Bible to "Shock people" and to get the attention of people to explain your viewpoint. Why would anyone want to be known as Belial, which is Hebrew for Satan, who is the personification of wickedness and lawlessness. Another name for Satan is Beelzebub, the Greek form of the Hebrew name Baal-Zebub, which means Lord of the flies. Satan is also Hebrew for accuser. Devil, which is a form of Satan is Diablos in Greek, meaning accuser. So to sum up, the Greek and Hebrew meanings for Satan is lawlessness, wickedness and Lord of flies. So to apply this against the Christian meaning would be to say that Satanists are pro-death, anti-good, anti-love, and anti-peace, because being Christian is to be anti-death, pro-good, pro-love and pro-peace. Mark 03/02 1:09 PM People who believe in, and worship the Christian concept of Satan are Christians. Even though they choose to worship Satan, they still believe in the concepts of Christianity. Even if they call themselves "Satanists", they are still follow the rules [even though they might try to break them] of the Judeo-Christian religion, and are bound by them. Modern Satanists do not have even an ounce of belief in your outdated set of moral guidelines and spiritual pipe-dreams. The difference is simple: If you believe in the Christian concept of Satan as the fallen angel, destroyer of man, and ruler of Hell, then you are a Christian. If you Choose to worship this version if Satan, then you are a rebellious Christian. Case closed! Now, your assertion that Satanists are anti-good, anti-love, anti-peace and pro-death is pretty shaky and I'm about to knock it down. First, we call ourselves "Satanists", not "Belialists", or "Beelzebubists", so trying to saddle us with your interpretations of those words is, well, let's just say, it's a nice try, but it won't work, YOU cannot label ME. I call myself what I feel suits me best, and I can attach any meaning I want to, to it. But beyond that, let's look at your statements from another angle, shall we? I put it to you that it is Christians who are pro-death, as it is they who feel that they will receive their rewards after death. More people have been killed in the name of "God" than for any other reason. Satanists are really the ones who are pro-life because we know that their is no eternal reward and that our life here on earth is all we have, so we make the most of it. Now, as to the anti-good part, good and evil are subjective. I don't know where in Hell you came up with the anti-love part. Satanists feel very strong love. It is true that Satanists only love those people who deserve our love, and we don't profess to love every single degenerate on the face of the planet like Christians claim too. This does not make us incapable of, or against love. Our love is a purer, stronger love because it is not watered down and distributed indiscriminately. Anti-peace? If you call the present status of our planet peaceful, then yes, we are very anti-peace. Tommy 03/03 10:35 AM Boy, these X-tians just don't get it, do they? I can't understand why they insist on coming to the boards that are clearly marked "Satanic" and try to cause trouble. Is this how they get their kicks? Sean 03/03 2:45 PM From my observances, I would say that there are 4 types of Christians who come to the Satanic boards. They are: 1. The "morally superior" Christian. They come to the board to get a glimpse [from a safe distance, of course] of the horrors of Satanism. They come expecting to hear stories of rape, molestation, human and animal sacrifices, and all the other terrors they have come to believe as being the truth. They love to be outraged. When they find out the truth, and their need for a good shock goes unfulfilled and they lose the chance to feel righteous, they go away and seek out "evil" in other places. 2. The proselytizing Christian. They feel that it is his/her duty to convert the entire world to their beliefs. These types can [and historically have been] very dangerous. Remember the Crusades? The Inquisitions? They seek to elevate their own ego by "saving" another from what they consider to be certain doom. What a feather in their cap it would be if the could convert even a single Satanist. 3. The manic depressive/brain damaged Christian. These people have no self-esteem what-so-ever. They feel cheated by the worthlessness of their lives and by the obvious absence of the blessings of God. They want to bring others down to their level. They attack those whose lives are successful. Like types 1 and 2, the only way that they can raise their own self-importance is by lowering the status of another. They cannot achieve any kind of self-worth and stature by their own abilities and accomplishments. The only way that they can elevate themselves is to bring others down. 4. The unsatisfied Christian. They seek out other religions because theirs is not fulfilling. They have lost their faith. They view the world around them and cannot justify a belief in God anymore. They claim to just be curious, that they only wish to know more about other's beliefs, but they are really searching for something that works. Christianity, with all it's myths. half truths, and spiritual pipe-dreams is found to be lacking. The hypocrisy inherent in that religion leaves a bad taste in their mouths, so they seek to learn the truth from those who are free from doubt and are not plagued by guilt. I'm sure there are those out there who will disagree with what I have stated. The cannot face the truth about themselves. They are blind. Tommy 10. Am I a Satanist? Not every one I talked to was so narrow minded and blinded by the propaganda spread by the Christian Church. Some people want to learn more about Satanism because the are unhappy with the tenets of the Judeo-Christian religion and they seek a path that is a celebration of life, and of man. The Christian Church has had a stranglehold on society for far too long. They have incorporated their philosophies into every aspect of our lives including our laws. On the currency used in our country are the words "In God we trust." Trust God? The same God that attacked Satan just because he had a differing view? The same God that would kill you for a minor infraction of one of his "laws"? The same God that hasn't been heard from in a couple thousand of years? I wouldn't trust God as far as I can throw him. Christian leaders have used fear, coercion, false promises and spiritual pipe-dreams as their tools to keep the masses under their thumb. But their rule is coming to an end. The Churches control has declined rapidly in just the last 100 years. No longer are they the ruling majority. A new generation has risen and thrown off the yokes of blindness and ignorance. No longer do they bow down before the idols and Gods of their ancestors. They hold their heads high and proclaim "I am my own God, I am in control" and woe to those who try to stand in the way. The Christian Church is not dead yet though, but it is severely wounded, and like all wounded animals, can still be dangerous. 01/07 9:41 AM Forgive my ignorance on this subject, if any wording seems offensive it is purely from my own uncertainty of the subject at hand. Questions: 1. Of the various branches of Satanism, are there any that follow along the lines of Crowley, or has LaVey been the greater influence of practice? 2. Years of programming by Xtian society has set a veil of confusion around other religions. Who do you pay homage to? Is it the old pre-christian gods in their original roles of the hunter, the light bringer ect.... 3. Satan, to my knowledge, first came on the scene under that name in the bible. If you are not Christian, why diversify yourselves from the pagan community by using a Christian name? 4. Should I go to the library and save you the trouble? Dave 01/07 4:11 PM Most Satanist regard LaVey as the father of modern Satanism, his philosophies form the basic foundation of our religion. There are still some who follow Crowley, but I personally find him boring and longwinded. He has a tendency to ramble on a bit. I think he was more interested in his reputation and it's shock value [and buggering anyone he could get his hands on] than he was in affecting any kind of real change. Satanists do not worship a higher power, we feel that there is no higher power than ourselves, therefore we regard ourselves as Gods. After all, man created God in his own image, not the other way around as most Christian scholars would have you believe right before they put their hands in your pockets. People always ask "Why do you call yourselves Satanists if you don't believe in Satan? Why don't you use another name?" There are many reasons why. Our tenets are most contradictory to Christian beliefs, so why not take the name of their greatest adversary? I hope this has answered some of the questions you have. If you have any more, feel free to ask. Tommy 01/08 7:43 AM You seem to reflect my own views, both on uncle Al and the origins of the gods. The statement that we are gods does reflect Crowley's "Every man is a star" concept. Some things hold water no matter which way you turn them. What are the goals of Satanism? To amass personal power, or to come to a better understanding of self and world? Do you believe in helping others that merit being helped, i.e. help themselves as best they can? Or do you not intervene where you are not asked to help? I'm not of the bent knee school either, but I do feel that a higher force moves within those that desire it's presence. Is the absence of this belief inherent to all Satanism, or there others that feel otherwise? Dave 01/08 9:00 PM I would have to say that most Satanists do not believe in a "higher power" that moves within us. Many believe in a force of nature that can or does cause things to happen, but they believe that this force is unknowing and/or uncaring of our existence. Satanists are free to give their help to anyone they want, although they are rather selective as to who they bestow their help to. One of the biggest myths concerning Satanists is that we are uncaring and incapable of showing love or kindness. This is far from being the truth. All humans are capable of these emotions, a Satanist is just more discriminatory as to the recipients of these emotions. We do not waste love on ingrates. The goal of a Satanist is to LIVE! Power, money, fame, sex, these are not forbidden fruits to the Satanist. We take what we want out of life without all the guilt that the abstinence based religions place on their followers. We are truly free. Tommy 01/08 9:44 AM Well stated. The impersonal force you speak of fits my view of "God", after all, how could origin of all be biased towards one or the other? I have found that in order for me to be at my best, I must incorporate both forces and attain a balance. The extreme of either end leads to destruction of the spirit. The Yin/Yang symbol tells me that my idea is not actually mine. Does this seem to fit the ideology of Satanism? Dave 01/09 7:44 AM Personally, I feel there is no distinction between good and evil. What might be considered evil to you, might be perfectly acceptable behavior to me. It is up to every individual to judge for his or her own self. I also feel that pushing the limits of either end of the spectrum is the only way to affect change. Tommy 01/09 4:45 PM I see your point. Satanism seems to fit right in with my own philosophies. I guess I am a Satanist and don't even know it. Thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions. I appreciate it. I am going to do more research into Satanism. I hope we get the chance to talk again later. I enjoy talking to someone who can speak in plain truths and not ramble on about mythical nonsense and tell me I'll be punished if I don't follow their way. Once again, thanks! Dave 02/21 8:12 AM I am very attracted by what I've come to understand about Satanism. I don't feel the need to join any Satanic organizations though. I prefer to practice Satanism on my own. Can I still be considered a Satanist? Or do you have to be part of a group to use the title? Jill 02/21 12:11 PM You don't need to join any organization to be a Satanist. We are, as a whole, solitary creatures anyway. If you are a Satanist and you know it, claim the title! Tommy 02/19 12:50 PM Being raised a Roman catholic and being quite disgusted with the tactics of that religion, I began researching many different forms of religion trying to find one that emphasized the importance of self-determination and responsibility for one's own actions. I was most impressed by the writings of the Dalai Llama. my cursory readings of Wicca impressed me somewhat. Given my R.C. upbringing, I never even considered Satanism because of the hellish image it conveys. I also have found that books on the subject, at least in this area, are hard to find. Tell me, are the bloody rituals that are etched in my mind REALLY a part of Satanism? Or was that all misconceptions? My understanding is that God and satan are equal but opposite beings. Is that just hype presented to invoke fear? I'm not being facetious. I am really curious. You see, through all the research that I have conducted, I have come to a conclusion. It really doesn't matter what you believe in or what you do. It's all a matter of heart. If your heart is good, you shouldn't really be worried about what brand you place on yourself. By "good hear" I mean going through life with an attitude of being respectful to all beings. [even those you don't like or agree with] Doing your best with what is available to you, taking care of yourself and those that depend on you without wrongfully taking from others. I believe that, if you live your life with a "good hear", two things will invariably result. 1] You will feel good about yourself, and naturally, enjoy your life understanding that you have done your best and have caused no unprovoked harm to others. 2] If there is a God or like being, how could he object to what you have done? I DO believe that we are more than an advanced brain stem. Reptiles have brain stems and they certainly have no morals, just survival instincts. Even the higher mammals have no morals as such. Yes, many of them take care of their offspring, but that is propagation of species. Some even "take care of" their elderly or infirmed. But, if you look, all they really do is allow them to hang with the pack and eat whatever may be left over from their kills. When they become too weak to stay with the pack, they are left to die or be killed. Humans on the other hand, feel something deep within when confronted with evil or wrong or hate. Some reject these feelings but that is a conscience effort. There MUST be something else to humans. Ken 02/19 3:03 PM If your searching for a religion where responsibility and the individual human will are part of the main philosophy, welcome to Satanism! It is the only religion that stresses both of these things. All religions that have a "God" figure use said figure as a way to take responsibility away from themselves. Their tenets are based on appeasing their god, and on gaining it's love and acceptance. Satanists scorn such attitudes. We bow before no man or god. Concerning the truth behind the rumors that we sacrifice animals and children. There is none. [truth that is] It is merely Christian propaganda. These types of lies are their only defense against us. We raise questions that they don't want asked and that they don't have answers to. They can't fight us with reason, so the attack us with slander. Your "good hear" theory, while being a nice thought, won't work for a number of reasons. Adopting a respectful attitude towards those that hate you, oppose you, prey upon you, limit you, ect... will only accomplish your downfall. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" doesn't work if the person you're in contact with means you harm. We Satanists have adopted an improved version of that Golden Rule; "Do unto others as they have done to you." The Golden Rule is fine in regards to strangers, but once their motives are discovered, and if they mean you harm, treating them kindly or turning the other cheek is out of the question. Humans do have a certain conscience that animals don't possess. The ability to reason, to think along logical lines is all part of our superior intellectual development. There has also been the artificial and unnatural development of man's so-called "spiritual" side as well. The two different sides are inconsolable. This unnatural spiritual side is always in conflict with man's natural carnal instincts. This has lead man to become more cruel and vicious than any animal. Tommy 02/20 5:13 PM I agree with a lot of what you say. Religion has been the cause of more death and destruction in the history of man than any other thing. It also has more suffering than anything else. However, I simply cannot believe that the source of our feeling of right and wrong or morality is simply a natural extension of mortal incarnation. I think religion has been used simply as a control device. Thousands of years ago, when the majority of humans were enslaved by a mere minority, someone got the idea that if they believed that all the suffering were required by some god, they would accept their fate more readily and be easier to control. Things just kind of mushroomed from there. Anyway, as I said before, I am a seeker. I can't stand organized religion, but I feel that man must be a spiritual being. It's the only way to explain our ability to have morals and sense the difference between right and wrong. how can a carnal man tell the difference? Ken 02/20 10:33 PM Right and wrong, good and evil are subjective. Each person makes an individual choice as to how they perceive these things. If we were all just spiritual beings created by the same god and all equal, we would all have the same feelings about things. This isn't the case though. Christians have a favorite saying "all men sin and fall short of the glory of God." If we were the spiritual beings that they claim we are, why would we still sin if we had "found" God? Would not fulfilling our spiritual destiny and uniting ourselves with the creator be enough to stop us from committing sin? If we are spiritual beings, why is our carnal nature able to override our spirituality? The only answer can be that the spiritual does not exist. If it did, we would be able to exorcise, or at least control our carnality. Tommy 02/21 9:11 AM No offense intended, but from all I've read it seems to me that Satanism is basically the same as atheism. The driving point being that there is nothing except this mortal life that we lead and that it really doesn't matter what we do because there is nothing else. If that is the case, then Satanism should not be considered a religion. It should be grouped into Atheism. It also seems that any individual can make up any parameters he chooses and call it Satanism. If that is the case, and again no personal offense is intended, it seems to me that Satanists are simply egotists that reject the notion that everything that came before them and anything that comes after them are of no concern. Ken 02/21 11:45 AM Atheism is the lack of a belief in God and that's it. Satanism goes far, far beyond that. Many Satanists do believe in a controlling force in nature, an unknown power, if you will. This is their concept of "God" and not the Jehovah of the Bible. The parameters of Satanism are very broad. We are free to live and act as we see fit. There are certain boundaries however. Satanists ARE egotists. We don't care what happened before us or what's going to happen after us, unless it could concern us directly. I don't need history to justify my life. I don't need the future to justify my present actions either. Tommy 02/21 3:34 PM I see what you are saying. While I do have many thoughts and ideas that seem to fit in with the philosophies of Satanism, I don't think it's right for me. There's too many unwanted and negative connotations involved with the name. I appreciate your honesty and openness with me. I will continue my search. Ken 02/21 7:15 PM Good luck! Tommy 11. Why become a Satanist? Why become a Satanist? Since you don't believe in Satan, why not be an Atheist? Or better yet, why call yourself anything at all? Why use a name that will cause you problems? What attracted you to Satanism? There are as many reasons for becoming a Satanist as there are Satanists. I became a Satanist because I was fed up with the lies, guilt, and hypocrisy that are inherent in the Christian religion. When I was a teenager, my friends and I would spend hours discussing God. "Do you believe in God?" We would ask each other, and the answer was always, "Yes." I had my doubts as to the existence of God, but the fear of rejection from my friends, forced me to answer in the affirmative. What made no sense to me was, that while my friends were professing their belief in God and Jesus as the savior of man, they were drinking, smoking pot, and making out with their girlfriends. If they really believed, why would they knowingly and go against the word of God. We all knew the things we did were in direct conflict with the religious principles we professed to follow, but we didn't care. God was great as someone to pray to in times of trouble, [Oh God, if you keep my parents from grounding me for the"" on my test paper, I'll never sin again] but as a guiding force in our lives, he wasn't wanted or needed, and we never kept the promises we made to him. One day, after a night of particularly rowdy debauch [in which certain hallucinagenics were used], one of the guys in our group informed us that he had talked to God the night before and was turning his life over to him. We laughed and made jokes about him not being able to handle his drugs. He told us he was serious, and that he had to give away all of his stuff "'cause material possessions are against the will of God." We obliged him by ransacking his room and making off with all of his things. We didn't see him as much after that, he said we tempted him too much [and I must confess his new found spirituality made us uncomfortable]. When he did come around he spouted scripture at us non stop, [in between drinks anyway] and told us all the wonders of God and his love. I would watch him recite passages from the bible with a beer in his hand, [although it is true his consumption had been cut back by quite a bit, he still drank on occasion] and think to myself "What a load of shit!" It seemed as though, while he could talk the talk, he couldn't walk the walk. His blatant hypocrisy made me question the principles of Christianity even more. It seemed as though every Christian I knew, said they worshiped God, but none of them were true to their confessed religion. Why? If a person truly believed, and if God was a reality, committing a sin would be unthinkable. Why can't man NOT sin? It was about this time when I came across "The Satanic Bible" by Anton LaVey in a local bookstore. I had heard of this book before, but I never had any reason for checking it out. I bought it under the notion that it would really make my friend go crazy, and I could get a good laugh out of it. As I read it that night [preparing for the confrontation with my friend the next day] I noticed similarities between my experiences with Christians and Dr. LaVey's. Here was someone else who had noticed the hypocrisy and self-deceit displayed by these people. I read and reread every page. Here was a philosophy that was honest, straightforward, and reflected my personal views on life. And this philosophy was called Satanism. I [like everyone else] had heard the horror stories surrounding Satanism. As I did more research into the subject, I found these stories to be completely false, and on the most part, started by Christians in order to slander those that chose a different path than their sterile and pathetically ineffectual one. Satanism wasn't a religion of molesters and murderers, it was a religion founded on the basic, natural characteristics of man, and by the tenet; "Only the strong will survive." No more of this "the meek shall inherit the earth" crap, the only thing the meek ever inherited was a footprint on their backside. That was 16 years ago, and thus began my life as a Satanist. I had many debates with my friend over the next few years, [and all my other friends once they heard I was getting involved with Satanism] but it didn't matter to me if I was accepted by them anymore. I was becoming my own man, and I no longer needed to be part of a group in order to feel whole. Not everyone who calls themself a Satanist or joins a Satanic organization does so because they have finally found a religion and philosophy that suits their outlook on life. Some are looking for something else, namely a sense of importance and power. They see Satanism, not as a natural extension of their own being, but as a way to give worth to a life that has so far has been worthless. They are the meek, the insipid, the painfully shy, the niblicks of the world who feel that life has left them behind and crave the power to change their situations. They do not possess the strength to change things themselves, so they look to others to do it for them. They join various Satanic organizations and rapidly try to elevate their status within the group. By doing so, they feel that their life on the outside is elevated as well. They attach themselves to certain organizations or certain members in that group and, like the parasites they are, feed off of the strength of the group. Many Satanic organizations, by their very nature, actually seem to encourage such behavior and invariably fail for just this reason. Satanism is not the place for lonely hearts. Satanic organizations are not a social clubs, and when used as such are doomed to extinction. Satanism cannot make you great, it can only open the door to the possibility of utilizing the greatness already within you that all other religions try to supress. Satanism cannot give you any power or abilities that you do not already possess. In these next set of conversations, a Christian gives HIS views as to why people become Satanists. Since he is not a Satanist, and he seems to have had contact with the cult variety or teenage devil worshiper only, his views are inaccurate, and since he is a Christian, biased. 01/10 7:33 AM Why would a person join a Satanic Church? I'm serious, looking for an answer. Why? Joseph 01/10 3:15 PM While there are as many reasons for becoming a Satanist as there are Satanists, there are a few reasons that seem to be universal. These include the want of independance, free will and thought, and the desire to live a happy, successful life unhampered by the guilt and self-deceit that plagues Christianity. Tommy 01/10 4:26 PM In all seriousness, the reasons for a person becoming involved with Satanism are as numerous as for a person becoming involved with anything at all. However, there are a few common entrances into Satanic groups. One of the most common is a result of involvement of family members. Be it a parent, uncle, cousin, or other, there is an impact when someone of your own family approaches you that demands you listen. Regardless of who it is making the initial approach, two things are highly influential. First, everybody is looking for something to believe in. This drives many to something which offers a difference to life. Second, if someone you trust approaches you with a new way to approach your days, you will listen. If they are offering you something that satisfies a need in you, they have an almost undefeatable opportunity for success. Perhaps you are lonely, they offer membership and acceptance. If you feel weak, they will introduce you to powers unimaginable. Satanism often deals with the supernatural, and this is very inviting in a world which seems out of control due to the influence of Satan in the first place. In some purely emotional ways, Satanism offers what seems to be the answer to many needs. However, over a period of years [sometimes decades], the problems significantly outweigh the benefits. The only alleviation from the pain for many individuals involved in such is to acquire"new blood." Therefore, many of these groups are much more successful than "mainline churches." Your original question demands that I return to the basics. Some of the Satanic groups will have other means of introducing someone into their midst. This can occur from your entering an establishment out of curiosity and they have the chance to expose you to "new and different ways." Yes, some of it can enter in ways that seem almost expected, but most likely in what seems harmless up front. There is no specific key other than the individual who has become "evangelistic." They are out to "conver" at some level. Another possibility is to be introduced through reading materials. Most public libraries carry books on the occult, witchcraft, magic, astrology, new age materials. Now, none of these in and of themselves may be bad. However, the intent of the author may be. If you are searching for a guaranteed key to avoid, contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing. In the final analysis, it is up to you to determine the purpose of anything new with which you must deal. This has caused some well meaning folks to become paranoid hunters who are searching under every rock they think they see. Where do you find help? There is a team which has been put together to examine the various sources of Satanism. The phone # is 1-800-594-8032. Ask for Wendell or Tillman Amstutz [son and father team]. If you desire more specific information or reasons for my disposition, contact me directly through the e-mail system for the sake of privacy. David 01/10 5:21 PM I'm going to disagree with you on several points. Satanists are solitary creatures and do not need to belong to a group to feel complete. It's funny, but your descriptions seem to fit Christianity more so than Satanism. People are coerced into following Christianity [or at least giving lip service to that fact] by the influence asserted by family, friends, and society at large. I saw on the news a little while ago, a story about 2 young boys who wanted to be Boy Scouts. The only problem was, they didn't believe in God. Their parents [who do believe in God and were good Christians] did not influence the boys on their decision, they made the decision on their own. The boys refused to say the word "God" in their oath, and this is where the trouble arose. They were kicked out of the Scouts, and were harassed by the Christian parents of the other scouts, in a way that made me sick. These adults, [for no other reason than the 2 boys didn't believe as the do] were called names, were spit at, and had objects thrown at them. This is the kind of behavior that can be displayed by Christians. When have you ever heard a story about Satanists acting in the same fashion? Satanists do not actively recruit "members." We don't go door to door like Christians and other weirdos do. Christians have turned proselytizing into an art form. They need new converts in order to keep the money rolling in. Satanists are an elite group, at the top of the evolutionary scale. We do not want to devalue ourselves by allowing those who are not worthy into out midsts. If a person is a Satanist they will know it and THEY will seek US out, and take their rightful place among us. Tommy 01/11 7:45 AM Interesting, I have had contact with at least three individuals who have claimed to be such who would disagree with your views. Perhaps, you "have a bone to pick" or possibly you do not know your "own kind" all that well. As for "Christians", I rather doubt you have much knowledge on that subject at all. Maybe you need to work on it a little bit more before you reply. David 01/11 4:19 PM You sure are defensive. I must've hit the nail right on the head for you to react in such a way. I'm am sure that any "Satanists" that you've had contact with were either of the cult variety [devil worshipers] who are naught more that confused Christians, or are merely delusioned victims of child abuse, whose therapists have planted the seed of "Satanic behavior" into their minds. I saw a very interesting show the other day which concerned therapists and alleged victims of Satanic ritual abuse. It seems as though these people have no recollection of any type of Satanic activity until it is brought out of them by hypnosis. It also goes on to show how, under hypnosis, the idea of ritual abuse is planted into the receptive mind of the patient by these so called "experts" who are trying to achieve credibility [and money]. As for my knowledge of Christianity, while I admit I am no expert on the subject, my knowledge is quite extensive. I dare say I know more about Christianity than most Christians do. Tommy 12. Some theories on Satan It seems like everyone has a different theory, or concept of Satan. While some view him as the horned Crown Prince of Hell, who, with pitchfork in hand and an evil glint in his eye, rules the underworld and seeks to destroy man and gain conquest of the earth. Others picture him as a misguided angel who, due to his strong sense of pride and his own weakness, stumbled, and was banished from Heaven and now spends his days in eternal sorrow for the wrongs he has committed. Still others view him as an evil force, waiting to tempt man with pleasures and powers beyond comprehension in order to turn him away from God. Some even incorporate all these aspects into one, or have come up with a completely different concept of Satan which fits into their personal viewpoints. Throughout this book you have read my views on Satan, now, for your reading pleasure, here are some other views. 02/08 7:45 AM Submitted for your consideration: A missive in the transmissive aspect of Satan. Have you ever noticed how emotion can be conveyed one to another? Old wisdom holds that love begets love. Have you ever driven in traffic and found yourself hurrying when you weren't in a hurry? Or angering in response to anger? There is a phenomenon known as sympathetic vibration. Radio, television, the glass breaking when she hits the high note, all are examples of resonance doing work. The vibration, started at one place, effects change at another place or places. I submit that there is a spiritual, as well as an emotional and physical aspect to this phenomenon. Consider the nature and character of Satan: Pride; envy; anger; self deception; selfishness; impatience; gall; guilt; hatred; spite; gloom and doom... It isn't hard to imagine how it would be to be stubbornly unwilling to repent, having known the boundless love of the Eternal. Many of the worst aspects of Satan are commonly called human nature. I believe it is because we resonate in spirit to that which is in the spiritual realm, and discrimination is a learned response and an act of will. That's how we're like a radio. We're like a record player in that our perception is as the needle, and the cosmos is like the platter. Habits are grooves more worn with each pass, and we really can't hope to see what it's all about until we rise above it. I could go on and on, and may very well do so with only the slightest encouragement, but that's about all for now. Consider babies perceptions. We're going to serve someone. John Paul 0 02/09 8:34 AM I'm going to take exception to some of your statements, as they are not based in reality. Love does not begat love. Next time some junkie gang member has a gun to your head and demands your money, tell him "No, I won't give you my money, but I will give you my love." You'll have plenty of time to reconsider your statement from your hospital room. Secondly, self-deception and guilt are qualities displayed by those of the Christian persuasion, and not Satan. Pride, anger, envy, and even hatred are natural feelings that all people have everyday. Emotions can and do give off bio-electric energy [you can call it vibrations or resonance, if you like] but it does not extend into the spiritual realm. For it to do that, a person would have to possess what Christians call a "soul." There is no evidence to suggest that there is such a thing. so therefore, your theory is meaningless. Tommy 02/10 8:26 AM The truth is, you don't have to take exception to anything, and you may take exception to anything you want. Such is the nature of free will. The same is true for resonance. We are not puppets, and you may choose to dance, though one may slip the strings at anytime of their choosing. As your scenario so aptly shows, denial of reality does not release on from the truth. John Paul 0 02/10 1:32 PM Is that the best you can do? Tommy 02/11 8:03 AM The impression I got from you original response was that you had not given the matter any serious though, but were merely reacting to preconceived notions along well worn lines of thought. My knowledge of these things is based on inquiry, experience, and experimentation. I know these things are true. One of the primary aspects of Satan that I neglected to mention is fear. That fear is also picked up by human kind and considered to be a natural human tendency. [It is true that perfect love casts out all fear, but it isn't for me to prove that to you.] Fear in humans works as a catalyst to capacitate the other negative qualities that are known as human nature. If these negative attributes were actually a natural part of humanity, they would be a permanent part of every individual. They are spiritual detriments, and emotions are the means by which they are expressed. Soul is a word that would take a note of it's own to go into. The Hebrew word translated "soul" in canonized scriptures refers to a breathing being, and can refer to any animal. [The single exception is in Job 30:15 where it comes from a word that means one's reputation.] I am being called away, for now. I look forward to continuing a conversation with you, providing we can keep it at least somewhat civil, and senseful. John Paul 0 02/11 1:53 PM I do not consider fear a natural human tendency, it is a learned response. I have oft times seen a child pick up a spider and examine it with a natural curiosity, until some adult tells the child not to touch it because it might bite, is icky, or mainly because of a fear of spiders that has been taught to that person. Fear is not a primary attribute of Satan. Fear is a tool used by Christians in order to control. Fear does not override what you call the "negative qualities" of man. These parts of human nature are inherent to all men. The Church teaches man to fear Satan, but this fear does not stop him from feeling natural desires, or from acting on the desires, it merely causes him to attend Church, beg for forgiveness, make a donation to cover the cost of his sin, and then go out and do it all over again. Tommy 02/12 9:33 PM I said fear is considered to be a natural human response, not that it is one. I have seen babies born though, and it was quite evident that they were fear filled. It is true that some who call themselves Christians use fear as a means to control themselves and/or others. True Christians fear nothing, and don't seek to control others. Fear overcomes everything it inhabits, given the right circumstances. I don't believe humankind has negative qualities inherent. I don't think that which manifests itself in humans as "bad" is of Satan. Satan is kind of like a spiritual transmitter. When you consider Satan's circumstances it is obvious why Satan is fear filled, ashamed, very sad and angry ect. God's Church knows Satan is not to be feared. Some of what call themselves churches fear Satan. Given the right circumstances, fear empowers Satan. Satan has no power on earth save what is granted by God or humans. Satan is not, nor has ever been, a physical being. Satan's influence is limited to the spiritual, and only humans can translate that into emotional or physical. John Paul 0 02/13 8:13 AM Let me see if I got this straight. You are saying that Satan has no real power over us, but that his "vibes" [for lack of a better word] can and do resonate across the spiritual plane and can be picked up by humans, affecting us, and then we in turn bring these transmissions into the physical realm as emotions. Have I got it? If this is your theory it hinges on one crucial point; Satan [in whatever form you wish to place him] being a reality. Satan is merely a creation of the Christian church. He is used as a scapegoat for all the world's troubles by people unable to accept responsibility for their own actions. Tommy 02/13 1:22 PM I am saying Satan's influence is limited to the spiritual. In the story of the Garden of Eden, communion with the Eternal was the natural state of creation. It was not God who hid, and not God who covered up when speaking. The spiritual realm is the Kingdom of God. We have only to open up our hearts for them to be filled, but most choose darkness because of feelings of inadequacy. This act of "hiding in the garden" or "covering one's nakedness" in prayer is counterproductive, but many know no other way. It is in Satan's interest to be considered a superstition. Satan hides in the shadows because when the light of God exposes what Satan is, it also binds by negating deception. It is true that some use Satan as a scapegoat, but they are also deceived. Any physical manifestation that is "bad" is a result of cause and effect. Satan cannot manifest in the physical plane. If you consider a counterfeit to be the genuine article, it's your choice and your loss. John Paul 0 * As you can see, Jack is starting to babble and contradict himself. Originally he states that We can "pick up" resonances sent out by Satan through the spiritual realm, and that these resonances can influence or manifest themselves as emotions or characteristics displayed by man. Later, he states that these manifestations are a result of "cause and effect", and that Satan really has no power except, perhaps, in the spiritual realm, which we do not inhabit. He also states that the spiritual realm is God's kingdom and that Satan has no power there either. If this is the case, then it stands to reason that Satan is either non-existant, or totally powerless. So what's all the fuss about? He had a good thing going with his statement that, when a person displays strong emotions, it can and does effect those around us. Instead of expounding on this, he chose to negate his theory by turning it into another false exposition of God's power over Satan. Pity. * 02/20 8:51 AM I think that Satan is not so much an actual entity, but rather he dwells inside our bodies as a part of us. He is the little voice inside your head that tells you to do bad things. Whenever you feel like doing something that is wrong, Satan urges you to do it and God urges you not to do it. Julie 02/20 11:23 AM It is your own mind that causes you to think certain thoughts, and your own will which causes you to act [or not to act] on them. By trying to give the responsibility for these thoughts to someone else, you are simply trying to remove the blame from yourself and set up a convenient scapegoat to take the fall for you. Tommy 03/12 8:23 AM Satan is the deceiver. He is weak. He has already lost the battle. I cannot figure out why someone would want to follow a loser. The Bible clearly states that God will win the fight. I think you people are sick! You ought to have your heads examined. You are going to burn in Hell with your defeated master. God is the only way. What kind of power do you think Satan will give you? I can't believe that someone would actually call themselves a Satanist. Don't you know that your soul is damned? Don't you know that Satan is deceiving you? Satan is a loser and since you follow him,that makes you a loser too. Satan cannot harm me. I am protected. If I ever saw a Satanist on the street I would call upon the power of the Holy Spirit to slay them on the spot, and it would happen. I am a warrior for Christ. You will be defeated and Satan's head will adorn my lance. Brenda 03/12 11:45 AM You seem a little tense. Perhaps you should switch to decaffeinated. If what you say is true, then why are you so worried about it? Tommy 13. On the lighter side Here are some of my favorite religious jokes: One day Jesus and Moses were sitting in a boat on a lake up in heaven, fishing. They were throwing down some brews and reminiscing about "the good 'ol days." "Remember when we were on earth?" Asked Moses. "Sure do" answered Jesus "we were really something back then." "We sure were" replied Moses thoughtfully "I wonder if we still got the old Magic?" "I don't know" said Jesus "why don't you give it a try?" "I'll do that!" And so saying, Moses stood up in the boat, and raising his arms in the air, commanded the waters to part. The sky grew dark, lightning flashed across the sky, and the waters did indeed part. With a satisfied smile, Moses lowered his arms and the water returned to normal. "Not bad eh?" Asked Moses. "pretty good, pretty good" replied Jesus "but watch this!" And so saying Jesus stood up and stepped out of the boat onto the water. He promptly sank. Moses fished the half drowned Jesus back into the boat. "I don't know what went wrong" Sputtered the soaking wet Jesus "it worked the last time I tried it. "Yeah" Said Moses "but last time you didn't have those holes in your feet." God was sitting around Heaven one day planning his vacation. His social director, St. Peter was helping him decide on a suitable location. "What about Pluto?" Asked Peter. "No" said God "last time I was there I froze my ass off." What about mercury?" "Too hot" responded God. "Well what about earth? You haven't been there in a while." "No Way!" replied God "That planet is full of nothing but gossips. I was there a couple thousand of years ago and I accidentally knocked up some Jewish chick and they're STILL talking about it!" Peter, one of the twelve disciples was sitting at the bottom of the hill the day they nailed Jesus to a stick, having a light snack, when he heard Jesus call out his name. "Peter...Peter...come to me..." Peter, upon hearing his name called replied "I'm coming lord!" and he started running up the hill. He only got about 1/3 of the way up before the Roman guards kicked him back down the hill. "peter...Peter...come to me..." "I'm coming lord!" yelled Peter and he raced back up the hill. He got about 1/2 way up this time before the guards kicked him back down the hill. "peter...Peter...Come to me..." "I'm coming lord" and summoning all his remaining strength, Peter raced back up the hill finally fighting his way to the top and to the cross of his savior. "I'm here lord!, I'm here!" "Peter?" "Yes lord, it's me" "Peter?" "Yes lord, it's me" Jesus looked down at Peter, smiled warmly and said "Hey Peter, I can see your house from up here!" Jesus was visiting earth and needed a place to stay. He walked into a Holiday Inn and up to the front desk. "Can I help you?" Asked the clerk. "Yes" said Jesus as he handed the clerk 3 nails "can you put me up for the night?" A young priest had just received his first assignment, he was to report to the mother superior at the local mission in a small town just south of the border. He got off the plane, and since it was only a short distance from the airport he decided to walk. He was strolling through the town, when a woman in a skimpy dress called out from her position on the street corner "Hey father, want a blow job, only $5.00." Now the priest, being very young and fresh out of priest school, was a bit naive to the ways of the world and had no knowledge of such things, in short, he had no idea what a blow job was. He just smiled at her and replied "No thank you, my child" and continued on his way. The same thing happened to him on the next corner, and the next. When he finally reached the mission, he reported to the mother superior. "Welcome father" she said "I hope you enjoy your stay here, and if you have any questions please ask." "well mother" said the priest "I do have one question, what's a blow job?" The mother superior stood up and walked over to the priest, and as she kneeled down in front of him said "$5.00, just like in town." What's the difference between Jesus and an oil painting? It only takes one nail to hang a painting. One Sunday, a Methodist minister is driving home from church and he gets into an accident. He runs over to the other car and frantically asks the driver is he is alright. "Yes" responds the man "I'm fine, just a little shook up." "Just a second" says the minister "I'll be right back." The minister goes to his car and gets a bottle of wine that was left over from communion that morning. He brings the bottle over to the driver of the other car and offers him some saying "Here, drink some of this. It will calm you down." The man takes a healthy swig, and it does settle his nerves a bit. He holds the bottle out to the minister and says "Here father, won't you have some too?" "No" replies the minister "I'm going to wait until the Highway Patrol gets here." What's white, black, and red and can't go through a revolving door? A nun with a spear through her head. How can you tell when a born-again Christian's baptism is over? The bubbles stop rising to the surface. 14. Satanic organizations Here is a list of some of the Satanic organizations that are currently in operation. The Church of Satan P.O. Box 210082 San Francisco, CA 94121 The Temple of Set P.O. Box 470307 San Francisco, CA 94147 Ordo Templi Satanas P.O. Box 1093 Atwater, CA 95301 Paul Douglas Valentine's Worldwide Church of Satanic Liberation 1044-B Chapel st. Suite 325 New Haven, CT 06510 Temple of Elite P.O. Box 1528 San Rafael, Ca 94915 Temple of the Left Hand Path W. 507 Indiana Spokane, WA 99205 Knights of Satan Fiddler's Green Postal Outlet P.O. Box 81137 Ancaster, Ontario Canada L9G 4X1 Temple of the Vampire P.O. Box 3582 Lacey, WA 98503 C.O.W.A.N. P.O. Box 15 Altadena, CA 91003 The Abraxas Foundation P.O. Box 300081 Denver, CO 80203 Ordo Templi Baphe-Metis P.O. Box 1219 Corpus Christi, TX 78403-1219 Embassy of S.A.T.A.N. P.O. Box 666 Whitehall, PN 18052 Brimstone Ministries P.O. Box 660 Marston Mills, MA 02648 15. Selected readings Here is a list of books pertaining to Satanism: The Satanic Bible-by Anton Szandor LaVey Avon Books 1969 The Satanic Rituals-by Anton Szandor LaVey Avon Books 1972 The Satanic Witch [Formerly the Compleat Witch]-by Anton Szandor LaVey Feral House 1989 The Devil's Notebook-by Anton Szandor LaVey Feral House 1992 The Church of Satan-by Blanche Barton Hell's Kitchen Productions 1990 Anton LaVey: The Secret Life of a Satanist-by Blanche Barton Feral House 1990 The Black Flame-Satanic newsletter of the Church of Satan Hell's Kitchen productions P.O. Box 499 Radio City Station, New York, NY. 10101-0499 Iniquity-Satanic newsletter Midnite Flite Productions 501 Maison Drive Box 44 Myrtle Beach, SC. 29572 Satan wants you-By Arthur Lyons Mysterious Press 1988 The Second Coming: Satanism in America-by Arthur Lyons Dodd, Mead 1970 Satanism in America-by Shawn Carlson & Gerald Larue Gaia Press In Pursuit of Satan: The Police and the Occult-by Robert Hicks

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