- Qmodem Capture File 01/15/90 23:53:25 - Zip scan from: (+/-)(NS), (Enter)'21886+'? 1+ ..

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*--* Qmodem Capture File 01/15/90 23:53:25 *--* Zip scan from: (+/-)(NS), (Enter)='21886+'? 1+ ......................... Date: 12-31-89 (16:01) Main Board Number: 22235 To: ELIOT GELWAN From: ERIC WONG Read: 12-31-89 (17:53) Subj: heil.zip eliot: There are other fast file finders out there in Channel One's file library. Why not use one of them? As to the repugnance you feel toward the use of references to Nazism and Germany, well, it may be offensive, but that would put it in a rather large group of software, now wouldn't it? I say, if you don't like it, don't use it. But, don't restrict others'use. evw --- ■ EZ 1.22 ■ Wong, E V *Childrens Hospital, Boston MA* Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (29 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22236+'? . Date: 12-31-89 (20:40) Main Board Number: 22261 To: ERIC WONG Refer#: 22235 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-05-90 (13:21) Subj: heil.zip EWlibrary. Why not use one of them? As to the repugnance you feel EWtoward the use of references to Nazism and Germany, well, it may EWbe offensive, but that would put it in a rather large group of EWsoftware, now wouldn't it? I say, if you don't like it, don't EWuse it. But, don't restrict others' use. Thank you for your reply, I *did* say that what I was after was to get some discussion of this going, not to arbitrarily restrict your choice. I'm a little surprised yours is the only comment, pro or con, I've gotten, including from the sysops to whom my comments were directed. I don't quite understand what you mean about a "large group of software." Are you saying that lighthearted references to Nazism are common in shareware? I must say I've never seen any, and I've looked over, oh must be, about 10 megabytes of shareware and public domain stuff in just the last twelve months. Even if you broadened your criteria to include racism, support for apartheid, the genocide of the Cambodians, the Armenians, the Kurds, the Amazonian peoples, etc., I can't say that I have. Now if you included sexism, that would've been a different question, and that's a matter for a different discussion. I don't download .gifs or other graphics, so I don't know exactly how offensive some of them can be to women, but I imagine quite so, but I'm not in a position to take particular offense at those files. If I hadn't taken *particular* offense at HEIL.ZIP, I wouldn't have made a point about posting a message about that program in particular. That's my answer to your last point as well, I take such particular offense that I think it IS worth discussing restricting people's use. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming you're of Chinese ancestry. If so, wouldn't you feel a particularly visceral revulsion if a program lightheartedly championed the genocidal persecution of the Chinese? Now, you may say that one enters the "slippery slope" with *any* argument to restrict freedom of expression etc, where are we going to draw the line, etc.? But there's something particluarly heinous about *this particular case,* I'd argue (and, again, throw it open for discussion). Also, I offered to post a sanitized version on the board, that works just as well without the gratuitous Nazi references (it's not the fastest file finder in my collection *anyway* -- check it out, all of you, if you want to, but I can suggest faster and more efficient ones. Granted it is pretty, with its exploding windows etc...).Does that alter your argument that your choice is being restricted? If not, I'd be interested in your reasoning about the importance of the Nazi references. Where, if anywhere, would *you* draw the line? ˙˙˙eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 08:18 pm, 12-31-1989 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (28 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22262+'? ....................... Date: 01-03-90 (02:16) Main Board Number: 22547 (Echo) To: ALL From: BETSY SCHWARTZ Read: 01-03-90 (03:03) Subj: Weirdo Uploads What in goodness's name is "HEIL.ZIP????" Would YOU download a file that was supposedly written by Adolph Hitler ? Is this some kind of joke or is it a nasty? --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.14 ■ Hold the pickle! Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (28 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22548+'? Date: 01-03-90 (02:16) Main Board Number: 22549 (Echo) To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 22261 From: BETSY SCHWARTZ Read: 01-03-90 (07:50) Subj: heil.zip Our messages crossed wires. I don't like the Hitler references either. My theory is that racism and sexism and other vile things shouldnt be treated as 'jokes" because too often that sort of opression has been laughed away. It should never be casually acceptable. I also am disappointed that Channel 1 carries X-rated GIF's, and I made some protest when the topic came up in the past. My feeling was that these same folks wouldn't go to x-rated movies or bookstores, and if they were running a bookstore they would not sell pornography, so why are they caryring it in electronic form? There's a difference between censorship (banning others from access to material) and exercising restraint (not distributing material). In other words, I can say that adults may have a right to acess pornography, but I do not have to help distribute offensive material ( I think that what I consider offensive is a small subset of what otehrs would consider offensive....) Channel 1 doesn't have to KEEP files just because someone uploaded them; they can exercise theur judgement aboutwhether a file is a valuable addition to the BBS community. --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.14 ■ Tagito ergo Sum Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board]Mail Command: (Enter)='22550+'? . Date: 01-03-90 (11:24) Main Board Number: 22576 To: BETSY SCHWARTZ Refer#: 22549 From: DAVID BIRNBAUM Read: YES Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT Different things offend different people. Periodically we see discussions here about exclusive conferences, programs to crack copy protection, programs to remove shareware "beg" screens, x-rated files, certain other information files (one user squawked about a "how to pick locks" file), and probably much more. Betsy's difference between censorship and "exercising restraint" does not seem as sharp to me as it does to her; other readers may draw their own lines in different places. If I ran a BBS I might make different decisions than Brian and Tess, but I don't think any of their policy decisions are completely indefensible. On a matter I consider related, the Boston Globe (3 January 1990, p. 23) carries the following story: "Concord, N.H. - Rep. David Wheeler (R-Milford) has proposed a measure under which University of New Hampshire students would not have to contribute to programs that distribute birth control and offer advice on abortion. Under the bill, students would be allowed to withhold a portion of their $86.50-a-semester health fee that is used for campus reproductive services. Students "are getting forced to financially support moral they don't believe in," Wheeler said." One wonders whether Rep. Wheeler's concern for students not having to support "morals" with which they might disagree extends to funding for the university chaplains. I'd like to suggest that only patently illegal (i.e., pirated) files be banned, while we can conduct our private boycotts of HEIL.zip, x-rated gifs, or whatever offends us individually. I don't think having to support something (through our subscriptions) of which we disapprove is too high a price to pay for the range of materials available here, some of which may be important to us and offensive to others. Some members object strongly in principle to closed conferences, whether they be closed by rule or by a polite request that members of certain groups not participate. I, for one, would support the university chaplains and campus reproductive services, although my sympathies may lie very strongly with one group and not with the other. Just my 2 cents, Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22577+'? ....... Date: 01-04-90 (11:10) Main Board Number: 22701 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 22261 From: ERIC WONG Read: 01-05-90 (00:14) Subj: heil.zip Eliot, two things, really... (1) i'll get around to writing a better reply eventually and (2) i know that there are faster and ncer file finders out in both shareware and commercial markets, but that doesn't mean that we are therefore allowed to restrict someone from putting out there own version no matter how offensive. I certainly don't *like* HEIL.zip and in fact, I too find it offensive. On the other hand, I also find the existence of skinheads and the Klan offensive. What I'm saying is merely that they have every right to release such software just as you have every right to choose something else. As for your suggestion to upload a cleaned-up version, I think that would be, if not illegal, unethical if done without their permission. If you were to write a similar fancy file finder from the bottom up, then I welcome your addition. ew --- ■ EZ 1.22 ■ Wong, E V *Childrens Hospital, Boston MA* Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22702+'? ... Date: 01-04-90 (18:25) Main Board Number: 22756 To: BETSY SCHWARTZ Refer#: 22549 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-05-90 (23:12) Subj: heil.zip BSOur messages crossed wires. I don't like the Hitler references either BS BSMy theory is that racism and sexism and other vile things shouldnt be BStreated as 'jokes" because too often that sort of opression has been BSlaughed away. It should never be casually acceptable. Thanks for the response...I was beginning to think I was the only one who'd seen the file in the new uploads! I agree with your sentiments and thoughts fully. I'm glad to see a discussion of the X-rated GIF's get started too. ˙˙˙eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 11:49 pm, 01-03-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22757+'? .. Date: 01-05-90 (08:44) Main Board Number: 22827 (Echo) To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 22261 From: JANE STEIN Read: 01-06-90 (08:02) Subj: heil.zip >choice. I'm a little surprised yours is the only comment, pro or con, >I've gotten, including from the sysops to whom my comments were >directed. I'm with you, Eliot. I find that stuff vile. But do consider the source-- undoubtedly completely unsocialized adolescent males with a fair amount of underlying hostility to the world in general. :-) I won't touch it, prsonally. And I'd be happier if our (and other) sysops would toss it. These nasty-minded juveniles have a perfect legal right to write that stuff. We have a perfect legal right to say we don't want to have anything to do with it. Same goes for sexist material which is, of course, far more insidious and widespread these days than this Nazi crap. --- ■ EZ 1.22 ■ Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22828+'? .. Date: 01-05-90 (08:45) Main Board Number: 22839 (Echo) To: DAVID BIRNBAUM Refer#: 22576 From: JANE STEIN Read: 01-09-90 (13:30) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT > If I ran a BBS I might make different decisions than Brian and Tess, >but I don't think any of their policy decisions are completely >indefensible. I agree with you, David. I'm personally very allergic to cries of "censorship!" in the BBS world. The Sysops hve every legal and moral right, as far as I'm concerned, to do whatever they want with their boards. *But* I'm also assuming that, since they have an enormous number of details clamoring for their attention, they don't mind occasionally having questions about whether they really want to carry things like HEIL.ZIP or X-rated GIFs brought to their attention by us users once in a while. It's completely up to them how they want to decide those questions, but I trust thy don't mind being asked by us to consider a point or two pro or con in the course of deciding their own policy. >participate. I, for one, would support the university chaplains and >campus reproductive services, although my sympathies may lie very >strongly with one group and not with the other. Yeah, I think this kind of thing can just get impossible after a while. The money goes to support, in your example, the university adminitration policy on a range of things. If you just can't swallow that policy in one or more areas, it's time to think about moving yourself somewhere where the policy is more to your liking. I can't see withholding part of your fee as a very practical solution. Same with BBSs. If the presence of X-rated GIFs is that important to you, and you can't sway the Sysops to your point of view, you should take your business elsewhere, seems to me. -Jane- --- ■ EZ 1.22 ■ Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22840+'? Date: 01-05-90 (13:51) Main Board Number: 22848 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 22261 From: JIMMY PEARSON Read: 01-06-90 (08:02) Subj: heil.zip EWlibrary. Why not use one of them? As to the repugnance you feel EWtoward the use of references to Nazism and Germany, well, it may EWbe offensive, but that would put it in a rather large group of EWsoftware, nowwouldn't it? I say, if you don't like it, don't EWuse it. But, don't restrict others' use. >Thank you for your reply, I *did* say that what I was after was to get >some discussion of this going, not to arbitrarily restrict your >choice. I'm a little surprised yours is the only comment, pro or con, >I've gotten, including from the sysops to whom my comments were >directed. that's because very few people are as uptight as you are about it, over twenty years ago Mel Brooks made a movie he titled "Springtim for Hitler" which the motion picture studio had him rename to "the Producers", even though MEL IS JEWISH.! but like I say that was over twenty years ago.. >I don't quite understand what you mean about a "large group of >software." Are you saying that lighthearted references to Nazism are >common in shareware? I must say I've never seen any, and I've >looked over, oh must be, about 10 megabytes of shareware and public >domain stuff in just the last twelve months. Even if you broadened >your criteria to include racism, support for apartheid, the genocide >of the Cambodians, the Armenians, the Kurds, the Amazonian peoples, you are awesome.. you equate a file finder purportedly written by Adolph Hitler with Cambodian genocide. you must also assume all German's are Nazi's then huh..?? >If I hadn't taken *particular* offense at HEIL.ZIP, I wouldn't have >made a point about posting a message about that program in particular. >That'smy answer to your last point as well, I take such particular >offense that I think it IS worth discussing restricting people's use. try this my friend. delete HEIL.zip it will work everytime..!! For someone who feels so strongly against the mention of Adolph Hitler's name you certainly seem enthralled with the philosophy of censorship that they he took to heights never before seen in the western world. Have you eer heard of the theory that if you HATE something enough you will become it..?? >Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming you're of Chinese ancestry. If >so, wouldn't you feel a particularly visceral revulsion if a program >lightheartedly championed the genocidal persecution of the Chinese? Where is the lighthearted genocidal reference in the program HEIL.ZIP you liar ! Do a screen dump of it and post it on this board..!!! >Now, you may say that one enters the "slippery slope" with *any* >agument to restrict freedom of expression etc, where are we going to >draw the line, etc.? But there's something particluarly heinous about >*this particular case,* I'd argue (and, again, throw it open for >discussion). Then there is something particularly heinous with the comedy of Mel Brooks, Jerry Lewis, Monty Python, Charlie Chaplin, let's throw all their work away also please.. Let's burn it all just like Hitler himself burned Chaplin's films.. > Also, I offered to post a sanitized version on the board, that works >ust as well without the gratuitous Nazi references (it's not the >fastest file finder in my collection *anyway* -- check it out, all of >you, if you want to, but I can suggest faster and more efficient ones. >Granted it is pretty, with its exploding windows etc...).Does that >alter your argument that your choice is being restricted? If not, I'd >be interested in your reasoning about the importance of the Nazi >references. Where, if anywhere, would *you* draw the line? Unless you can provide the reference to the genocide you quoted then you are both a liar and a thief. You talk about hacking software you didn't write to remove what *YOU* consider objectionable, you are what is objectionable to me friend..!! You've got an incredible amount of nerve, or a vacuumous lack of brains. You post your sanitized version, you download the whole board and SANITIZE all the files for us folks. Step down from the mountain and pass us the tablets Lord..! Give us the approved versions of the sofware mein fuhrer.!! SIEG HEIL..! Jimmy Pearson president :Bytebrothers Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22849+'? Date: 01-05-90 (15:48) Main Board Number: 22855 To: ELIOT GELWAN From: WAYNE MCGUIRE Read: 01-06-90 (08:02) Subj: LIBERAL AUTHORITARIANS Eliot, Over in the Debate Conference there are several followers and sympathizers of Israel's Meir Kahane, who are aggressively advocating or defending some of the following positions: -- it is right and proper to demolish the homes of families of suspected "terrorists" (a form of brutal collective punishment); -- it is right and proper to beat up and murder children; -- it is perfectly moral forcibly to deport en masse all Palestinians from Biblical Greater Israel; -- short of the Holocaust, there was nothing especially evil about Nazi Germany; -- it is right and proper for Israel systematically to discriminate against all non-Jews in order to maintain the Jewish cultural, ethnic and religious purity of Eretz Yisrael; -- non-Orthodox Jews, and Jews who associate too much with goyim, are loathsome creatures, comparable to (in the language of Julius Streicher) "rats"; -- there is nothing especially wrong about Israel working initimately with South Africa to develop intercontinental nuclear missiles; and on and on in this vein. Even leading Israeli officials have recognized that these views are Nazilike in character; Amos Oz, Israel's greatest living writer, described the people who advocate these views as "Judeonazis." These people are deadly serious about their politics. They are not playing games. So just what are your and Betsy's politics? Are erotic graphicsand the HEIL file more offensive than the heavy-handed propagandizing of Kahanists on RelayNet? Do you think Kahanism should be banned from RelayNet? I don't, and as disgusting as I find their views, I would, to coin a phrase, fight to the death for their right to express them. It is better to have these monstrous ideas out in the light and fully visible, where you can get a handle on them and understand them. I took a brief glance at the HEIL file. It appeared to be an obnoxious joke in the classic heavy metal vein. Hitler = Attila the Hun = any symbol of blitzing power. Adolescents suffering from testosterone poisoning, perhaps. I noticed no promotion in the file of practical ideas for hurting or murdering other people. The Kahanists in the Debate Conference, which is much more highly visible on RelayNet than a single file or a set of erotic graphics, are significantly more dangerous and offensive than than the Byte Brothers (sp?). My opinion: you have no business messing with that file or censoring it. You do have every right to express your outrage about it. I'll be happy to debate this with you further. The reason I will never call myself a liberal is because too many liberals reveal an authoritarian streak that is as oppressive and (to me) repulsive as the authoritarianism on the right, particularly the religious right. Left-wing and right-ring authoritarians are all brother and sisters under the skin, and I frankly can do without their sanctimoniousness and ypocrisy. Btw, the big numbers discussion has moved over to Science; I hope to see you there. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22856+'? . Date: 01-05-90 (20:26) Main Board Number: 22878 To: JIMMY PEARSON Refer#: 22848 From: FREDERICK LONSDALE Read: NO Subj: heil.zip JP> Jimmy Pearson JP> president :Bytebrothers What is 'Bytebrothers'? --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.14 #135 ■ RelayNet (tm) ONLINE Services Conference Host Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22879+'? ..... Date: 01-06-90 (08:03) Main Board Number: 22930 To: ERIC WONG Refer#: 22701 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-07-90 (01:32) Subj: heil.zip EWthat they have every right to release such software just as you EWhave every right to choose something else. As for your EWsuggestion to upload a cleaned-up version, I think that would be, EWif not illegal, unethical if done without their permission. If EWyou were to write a similar fancy file finder from the bottom EWup, then I welcome your addition. I appreciate your points. However, as Betsy Schwartz said in another response to my original complaint, just because they have a right to produce such software does not mean that Channel1 has an obligation to carry it. It is worth discussing, rather than automatically rejecting, the suggestion that enough distaste for this kind of thing from Channel1 users might mitigate for the file being erased. ˙˙˙eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 02:08 am, 01-05-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Qut search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22931+'? . Date: 01-06-90 (11:00) Main Board Number: 22943 To: FREDERICK LONSDALE Refer#: 22878 From: RICK OSTERBERG Read: 01-06-90 (14:30) Subj: heil.zip FL> What is 'Bytebrothers'? You mean you've never heard of the BYTEBROTHERS? They make all sorts of kinda neat utilities. From what I've seen, there's a lot of things for BBS's, such as ZIP file commenters, ZIP file cleaners (removing embedded ARC files), converting ARC to ZIP, updating ZIP file versions, etc. Also - I think the two-way transfer protocal (Jmodem?) was put together by them. -Rick --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.21 ■ 1996 Summer Olympic Games: Here I Come! Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='22944+'? ... Date: 01-06-90 (19:12) Main Board Number: 23008 To: JIMMY PEARSON Refer#: 22848 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: NO Subj: heil.zip JPUnless you can provide the reference to the genocide you quoted then JPare both a liar and a thief. You talk about hacking software you didn JPwrite to remove what *YOU* consider objectionable, you are what is JPobjectionable to me friend..!! You've got an incredible amount of ner JPor a vacuumous lack of brains. You post your sanitized version, you JPdownload the whole board and SANITIZE all the files for us folks. JPStep down from the mountain and pass us the tablets Lord..! JPGive us the approved versions of the sofware mein fuhrer.!! JPSIEG HEIL..! OK, I see, a response like mine is just the kind of thing you weree waiting for so you could get all hot and bothered and spout off. I'm not going to dignify your message with any further response except to say that we'll let your message and mine stand before the eyes of the other readers and they can draw their own conclusions. ˙˙˙eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 08:27 am, 01-06-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23009+'? Date: 01-06-90 (19:12) Main Board Number: 23009 To: WAYNE MCGUIRE Refer#: 22855 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-06-90 (22:03) Subj: LIBERAL AUTHORITARIANS WMSo just what are your and Betsy's politics? Are erotic graphics and WMth HEIL file more offensive than the heavy-handed propagandizing of WMKahanists on RelayNet? Do you think Kahanism should be banned from WMRelayNet? I don't, and as disgusting as I find their views, I would, WMto coin a phrase, fight to the death for their right to express them. WMIt is better to have these monstrous ideas out in the light and fully WMvisible, where you can get a handle on them and understand them. WMI took a brief glance at the HEIL file. It appeared to be an WMobnoxious joke in the classic heavy metal vein. Hitler = Attila the WMHun = any symbol of blitzing power. Adolescents suffering from WMtestosterone poisoning, perhaps. I noticed no promotion in the file WMpractical ideas for hurting or murdering other people. The Kahanists WMin the Debate Conference, which is much more highly visible on RelayN WMthan a single file or a set of erotic graphics, are significantly WMmore dangerous and offensive than than the Byte Brothers (sp?). WMMy opinion: you have no business messing with that file or censoring WMit. You do have every right to express your outrage about it. I'll WMbe happy to debate this with you further. WMThe reason I will never call myself a liberal is because too many WMliberals reveal an authoritarian streak that is as oppressive and (to WMme) repulsive as the authoritarianism on the right, particularly the WMreligious right. Left-wing and right-ring authoritarians are all WMbrother and sisters under the skin, and I frankly can do without thei WMsanctimoniousness and hypocrisy. Well, this is clearly a much more reasoned and welcome commentary than Pearson's namecalling! Thank you. I *am* mostly interested in expressing my outrage and promoting discussion just like this. People have a pitiable right to be poisoned by their own testosterone, I guess. It was unfortunate that I look like a censor or "thief" rather than a conscieotious objector, it dilutes my point I suppose. But one thing I would differ with you about is the analogy to the Kanahists' rights. They have much *more* right to be here on the board or any other public forum, IMHO, because there's valid political content to their position, even if repugnant, and I too would fight for their right to that (also the right of the American Nazis or the KKK to hold public rallies, etc). That is in the interests of the survival of the non-authoritarian tolerant and pluralistic society I work towards. What bother's me about the posting of HEIL.ZIP is not the philosophy that it might support, I don't think I'm so naive to believe that it is a serious espousal of fascist philosophy! It's rather that it's so gratuitous. Obviously, just designed to be provocative, thoughtless, insulting, attention-getting etc., without serious content. Pearson supports my point when he challenges me to find the genocidal references within the file. I *know* there re none! I liken this situation less to to some fascist group's application to exercise their right to speak their message in a public forum, like the Kahanists here on the BBS, than I do to the recent incidents of swastika graffiti on the synagogue wall in Wellesley or the public school wall in Cambridge, which provokes widespread community condemnation (and provokes no protest about censorship when scrubbed off the wall!). ˙˙˙eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 09:57 am, 01-06-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23010+'? . Date: 01-06-90 (22:03) Main Board Number: 23031 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 23009 From: WAYNE MCGUIRE Read: 01-07-90 (00:19) Subj: LIBERAL AUTHORITARIANS EG> What bother's me about the posting of HEIL.ZIP is not the EG> philosophy that it might support, I don't think I'm so naive to EG> believe that it is a serious espousal of fascist philosophy! EG> It's rather that it's so gratuitous. Obviously, just designed EG> to be provocative, thoughtless, insulting, attention-getting EG> etc., without serious content. Of course, that could describe much of the humor on _Saturday Night Live_, in _National Lampoon_, _The Harvard Lampoon_, etc. Should we censor these forms of expression? Their gratuitousness and outrageousness is of their very essence. EG> I liken this siuation less to to some fascist group's EG> application to exercise their right to speak their message in a EG> public forum, like the Kahanists here on the BBS, than I do to EG> the recent incidents of swastika graffiti on the synagogue wall EG> in Wellesley or the public school wall in Cambridge, which EG> provokes widespread community condemnation (and provokes no EG> protest about censorshp when scrubbed off the wall!). Is HEIL.ZIP really analogous to anonymous and malicious swastika-daubing on private property? Perhaps you could make your case better if you quoted the passages you found most offensive. To censor HEIL.ZIP, while permitting on libertarian grounds the expression of serious fascist propaganda in the message bases (one could imagine, for instance, white Christian extremists, the equivalent of the Kahanists, presenting sophisticated arguments in civil language urging the deportation from the U.S. of all Jews and blacks), strikes me as a trifle unbalanced. The most vile hate messages I've ever seen posted in a computer conference were the work of a Christian fundamentalist who was wallowing like a pig in slop in the vision of God slowly torturing and exterminating members of all the "false sects" in the world: Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jews, etc. If I can tolerate messages like that, I suppose I can tolerate the _relatively_ innocuous, albeit irritating, HEIL.ZIP. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23032+'? ... Date: 01-07-90 (13:26) Main Board Number: 23083 (Echo) To: DAVID BIRNBAUM Refer#: 22576 From: BETSY SCHWARTZ Read: 01-09-90 (13:31) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT DB>"Concord, N.H. - Rep. David Wheeler (R-Milford) has proposed a measure DB>under which University of New Hampshire students would not have to DB>contribute to programs that distribute birth control and offeradvice on DB>abortion. Under the bill, students would be allowed to withhold a DB> One wonders whether Rep. Wheeler's concern for students not having to DB>support "morals" with which they might disagree extends to funding for DB>the university chaplains. Under certain circumstances he would be right to do so. However my personal belief is that a university has goals which are higehr than the financial right sof the students, such as spreading knowlede and ideas and learning. Just as the university can set graduation standards regardless of what the student wants to take, the university can define othe raspects of education. I would ferventy hope that they would include reporductive information in that knowledge! DB> I'd like to suggest that only patently illegal (i.e., pirated) files DB>be banned, while we can conduct our private boycotts of HEIL.zip, DB>x-rated gifs, or whatever offends us individually. I don't think having In a way that's what I'm suggesting. A bbs is halfway between a public and a private forum. I am not opposed to the sale of pornography, but if I ran a bookstore I would not stock materials that offended me. Let folks get it somewhere else. Similarly, I think even racists have a right to speak out, but I wouldnt distribute their stuff personally, and I urge Brian and Tess not to do so. I don;t want to read it here. --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.14 ■ The less I seek my source for some definitive Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23084+'? .. Date: 01-07-90 (16:11) Main Board Number: 23110 To: BETSY SCHWARTZ Refer#: 23089 From: WAYNE MCGUIRE Read: YES Subj: CENSORSHIP POLICIES BS> The kahanists area red herring We're talking about offensive BS> material. Classifying WHICH material is offensive is for BS> another day. Why not discuss this matter now? The most flagrantly racist messages (in quantity and persistence) I have ever seen posted in any computer conference have been appearing during recent months in the Debate Conference, where a contingent of militant pro-Israelists has been supporting concepts like mass deportation, kid-killing, and the demolition of houses of families of **suspected** "terrorists. In fact, I also saw Douglas Buckser and Derek Buchler here on Channel One advocate at least two of thos three policies. What is more immoral and offensive: HEIL.ZIP and erotic graphics, or propaganda for anti-human, racist and fascist policies? Which category of information, if any, should we urge Brian and Tess not to carry? If we are going to allow Kahanists to leave messages here (and keep in mind that there is virtually no difference these days between Kahane and Shamir--calls for mass deportation are coming from the highest levels oftthe Israeli government), shall we also allow advocates of apartheid in South Africa to speak out at length here? How about serious American Nazis? For you and Eliot to focus on HEIL.ZIP and erotic graphics as the target of your moral outrage and the object of *de facto* censorship (and make no mistake, what you are suggesting when you cut through the polite rhetoric is censorship), while ignoring the far more offensive and dangerous material that is being broadcast over RelayNet, strikes me as misguied. You don't have your priorities in order. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (27 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23111+'? .. Date: 01-07-90 (21:10) Main Board Number: 23152 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 23126 From: WAYNE MCGUIRE Read: 01-08-90 (21:19) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT BS> Similarly, I think even racists have a right to speak out, but BS> I wouldnt distribute their stuff personally, and I urge Brian BS> and Tess to do so. I don;t want to read it here. EG> Hear! Hear! You appear to be shifting ground from your earlier message--so now you think the Kahanists _should_ be filtered out or censored on Channel One? Actually any supporter of the present Israeli regime and its ideology and actions would probably qualify as advocating racist policies these days--including most the constituent members of the mainstream Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, ho have been ardent defenders of Yitzhak Shamir. I know nothing of the Bytebrothers--but so far I haven't seen them denigrate any group or advocate violent or inhumane actions against defenseless people. Your previous message implied that while HEIL.ZIP should be removed from Channel One, serious messages from white Christian extremists advocating the deportation of minorities from the U.S. would be permissible. You andBetsy are not making a whole lot of sense to me. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23153+'? .... Date: 01-08-90 (12:48) Main Board Number: 23203 (Echo) To: FREDERICK LONSDALE Refer#: 22878 From: JANE STEIN Read: 01-08-90 (19:35) Subj: heil.zip > What is 'Bytebrothers'? Obviously, it's a group of people with 1-byte IQs. See my previous reference to hostile adolescents. -Jane- --- ■ EZ 1.22 ■ Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23204+'? .. Date: 01-08-90 (13:24) Main Board Number: 23211 (Echo) To: BETSY SCHWARTZ Refer#: 23083 From: DAVID BIRNBAUM Read: 01-08-90 (23:46) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT DB>I'd like to suggest that only patently illegal (i.e., pirated) DB>files be banned, while we can conduct our private boycotts of DB>HEIL.zip, x-rated gifs, or whatever offends us individually. BS>In a way that's what I'm suggesting. A bbs is halfway between BS>a public and a private forum. I am not opposed to the sale of BS>pornography, but if I ran a bookstore I would not stock BS>materials that offended me. Let folks get it somewhere else. BS>Similarly, I think even racists have a right to speak out, but BS>I wouldn't distribute their stuff personally, and I urge Brian BS>and Tess not to do so. I don't want to read it here. I am afraid that my posting was not worded as clearly as I had intended, since I do not agree with your position at all. By private boycott I meant a *private* boycott, whereby Mr. Gel- win does not download HEIL.zip and you do not download x-rated gifs. I did not mean a public call for an institutional boycott, whereby individual users suggest to the sysops that certain mate- rials that they consider offensive be banned entirely from Chan- nel1. The alleged presence of racist materials or the actual presence of x-rated gifs does not force you to "read" these mate- rials any more than scientists and Christians are forced to read about astrology and paganism. The wealth and range of materials on Channel1 reminds me more of a comprehensive library than of a small and specialized bookstore that may reflect the interests and prejudices of its proprietor. The intervention of the thought police would mean that someone would screen thematerials that might be available to us. Some people who have held truly unpopular ideas or who have spent a significant amount of time in totalitarian states might feel that this is bad policy, no matter how tempting it might be to say "but this case is different." I applaud the hands-off policy of the sysops at Channel1. I think we both know the standard arguments for the vari- ous positions here and I don't really have anything new to add to my previous comments, but I was concerned by your suggestion that our positions might be similar. I would not urge you to carry racist literature or pornography in your hypothetical bookstore and I would not urge the sysops of Channel1 to prohibit the dis- tribution of any materials here. I do not see how you can profess to be opposed to censorship while feeling that it is ap- propriate to suggest banning certain materials from places where you like to hang out (sch as Channel1) so that you will not have to be reminded of their existence. Marching unpopular ideas into the ghetto is less extreme than marching them into extermination camps, but it is still censorship. I would welcome the natural death of certain ideas that I find objectionable, but I would not legislate restricting them. I personally find many things on Channel1 far more offensive than either HEIL.zip or x-rated gifs; my evaluations are not objectively any better or worse than yours. (As Dave Barry has put it, "The important things isn't so much *what* you want to ban; it's the fact that you participate in the banning process. That's what democracy is all about.") I am content to tolerate the presence of materials I find offensive; I do not believe this can ever be as harmful as the suppression of selected materials by persons whose only claim to moral superiority may be that they are more outspoken or more numerous than people who feel differently. I use *ever* in the preceding sentence deliberately. --David --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.21 ■ Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23212+'? Date: 01-08-90 (18:54) Main Board Number: 23251 (Echo) To: DAVID BIRNBAUM Refer#: 22576 From: KURT LEVITAN Read: 01-09-90 (13:31) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT DB> I'd like to suggest that only patently illegal (i.e., pirated) files DB>be banned, while we can conduct our private boycotts of HEIL.zip, DB>x-rated gifs, or whatever offends us individually. I don't think having I've always wondered about the legality of the x rated gifs. Do these fall under the states (or federal?) pornography laws? Can we legally allow minors to download them? What about people accessing them across state lines? Isn't there some law about that as well? Does anyone know the legalities of this situation? - Kurt --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.20 #16 ■ If anything can't go wrong, it will. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23252+'? .... Date: 01-09-90 (07:46) Main Board Number: 23296 (Echo) To: WAYNE MCGUIRE Refer#: 23110 From: BRUCE CANTOR Read: 01-09-90 (11:52) Subj: CENSORSHIP POLICIES WM>For you and Eliot to focus on HEIL.ZIP and erotic graphics as the WM>target of your moral outrage and the object of *de facto* censorship WM>(and make no mistake, what you are suggesting when you cut through the WM>polite rhetoric is censorship), while ignoring the far more offensive WM>and dangerous material that is being broadcast over RelayNet, strikes WM>me as misguided. You don't have your priorities in order. Now, now. I _completely_ agree with your views as far as inclusion or exclusion of materials from Channel1 (whether as de facto or actual censorship or as encouragement to discontinue carrying the materials). However, Ithink you got a bit carried away here. Most of this discussion is tantalizing to me. I want to jump in, but can't articulate my arguments in a manner to convince myself, much less anyone else. :) I feel you, Betsy and Eliot are making reasonably sound arguments (even when I disagree) and are airing a rational and mostly complete debate in an area which often doesn't receive full consideration. I would like to see this continue, not because I will suddenly change my mind, but because I need someone else to structure these particular issues so I can better re-frame them in my own mind. I doubt your statements will chase off either Betsy or Eliot, but there might be others, like myself -- traditional lurkers -- who won't par- ticipate even though they have good points, because of attacks on them, rather than on their arguments. What matters is not the order of their priorities, but the completeness of the arguments behind them. It would seem better to hold a point based on a firm conviction and a well thought out, reasonably logical argument than to hold the same view based on current levels of tostesterone (either yours or someone elses). By all means, keep on posting. If I ever find something valid to say that would add something, I won't be bashful. In the mean time, don't get your blood pressure too high. Who would think for me then? :) Hope this makes a difference fr someone. --- ■ EZ 1.22 ■ Reality is for people who can't handle drugs. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23297+'? ... Date: 01-10-90 (01:01) Main Board Number: 23374 To: WAYNE MCGUIRE Refer#: 23152 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-11-90 (00:06) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT WMYou and Betsy are not making a whole lot of sense to me. Wayne: I appreciate that the tone of this discussion so far has been amicable, but I think you're equating your disagreement with my position with whether it "makes sense" or not. This is the second such comment you've made. BTW, I don't speak for Betsy. I *suspect* we have similar feelings about these issues but I hardly know her and can't say for sure. So far you have lumped us together in perhaps every, if not then nearly every, comment you've made on this issue. That may be making it harder for either one of us to "make sense" to you. WhatI felt I was agreeing with when I said "Hear hear" in response to Betsy was the application of her argument to the Bytebrothers file. I still hold to the distinction I drew between my support for political extremists having a public forum (as a basis for the kind of exchange on which democracy is predicated in a pluralistic society) and my lack of support for gratuitous insulting adolescent provocativeness (without content that mkes it possible to have a reasoned exchange). And I still believe it would not be "censorship" for a sysop to delete HEIL.ZIP. It is somewhat "knee-jerk" to simply represent it so. ¨¨¨eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 10:43 pm, 01-08-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23375+'? ....... Date: 01-11-90 (00:06) Main Board Number: 23468 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 23374 From: WAYNE MCGUIRE Read: 01-11-90 (08:05) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT EG> I still hold to the distinction I drew between my support for EG> political extremists having a public forum (as a basis for the EG> kind of exchange on which democracy is predicated in a EG> pluralistic society) and my lack of support for gratuitous EG> insulting adolescent provocativeness (without content that makes EG> it possible to have a reasoned exchange). Point taken. But I also find the serious political extremists, particularly the religious and racist extremists, to be more disturbing and dangerous than hyped-up adolescents or erotic graphics. If I were in the authoritarian mood to filter information for other people, to make decisions for them about what they should see or not see, I would go after the real hate communications before sounding alarm bells about relatively trivial matters. It would help if you could be more specific about what offends you in HEIL.ZIP. You acknowledged that it is not an endorsement of fascism or Nazism. Apparently it is a tongue-in-cheek, rip-roaring heavy metal fantasy. What's the big deal? Have you ever read Robert Anton Wilson or Norman Spinrad? Do you want to ban all forms of surrealism, or just the forms that aren't polite? Isn't polite surrealism a contradiction in terms? The big deal in the Kahanist messages I have been referring to is that some contributors on RelayNet have been arguing seriously, without a hint of surrealist irony or playfulness, that Israel has a religious obligation to discriminate against all non-Jews, and perhaps should even deport all Arabs from Biblical Greater Israel. Real Nazism is a bigger deal than cartoon parodies of Nazism. The Bytebrothers are small potatoes compared to Likud cheerleaders or organized supporters of apartheid in South Africa. You haven't even yet demonstrated, since you haven't analyzed HEIL.ZIP as a piece of (probably bad) "literary" text, that the Bytebrothers are bad guys. Apparently they are better than average programmers. That's all I know about them (that and the fact they are feeling their oats). Why won't you address the text in some specific way and interpret it? So far all you've been doing is name-calling. EG> And I still believe it would not be "censorship" for a sysop to EG> delete HEIL.ZIP. Sure sounds like Orwellian doublethink to me--peace is war, censorship is free speech. The message I get from your communications on this subject so far is that you want the sysop to censor items that you find personally offensive. If we all are granted that right (and keep in mind that we all enjoy the prerogative to define offensiveness any way we wish), everything controversial will be expunged from Channel One, the good and the bad. The enlightened solution to the offensiveness problem is to demand software that will provide every user the power automatically to filter out messages or files by objectionable authors or on objectionable topics. (Meanwhile the Bytebrothers should pay us a decent sum for all the free publicity we have give them!) Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23469+'? ... Date: 01-11-90 (23:57) Main Board Number: 23563 To: WAYNE MCGUIRE Refer#: 23468 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-12-90 (17:21) (Has Replies) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT Wayne, this continues to be a thought-provoking exchange, thank you. To be fair, I might have gotten even more bent out of shape about the Kahanists if I'd come across their arguments first, and I would've probably then not paid any attention to HEIL.ZIP by comparison. I will not argue with you -- the far more disturbing position is the real hate communication (I contribute to Klanwatch and the Anti-Defamatoon League, etc). I also agree that it's getting tiresome to give the Bytebros. so much free publicity for their little sick joke; in a sense it's playing into the provocation. That being said, let me try to be more specific about what bothered me about the file. There is no racist or hateful *content* to it, it's just a filefinder (with a pretty interface with exploding windows, at that). As far as I can see, the German joke is just an effort to analogize the program's speed to the blitzkrieg (ven though it's really not that fast!) and take the metaphor from there. So what they've done is use mock-Germanisms ("filen" instead of "files" etc.) and say it's written by Hitler, etc. I can't even cite too many specifics for you anymore 'cuz I erased the file after looking at it (that's what they've been telling me to do if I don't like it, right?) and it was more than two weeks ago at this point that I looked at it (Chritmas Eve, in fact, which I think was part of what bothered me, peace on earth and goodwill to all etc.). So it was the frivolity of the use of Nazi references -- the inherent middle-finger salute at the idea that the references may be upsetting to some people; the thoughtlessness and gratuitousness of it, that was so disturbing to me, intrinsically. I could understand it *better* in a sense if it were truly meant to be racist, and it wouldn't be so disappointing or disturbing. Better than that I can't do, and frankly I think I've been making a mountain out of a molehill. But really, tell me if you'd consider it censorship to scrub swastika graffiti off a synagogue wall, which is what I liken this too. Moreover, the BBS is not a public medium, its standards of decency are it seems to me defined by the sysops and I hope responsive to the values of its users, rather than directly by the Bill of Rights. There'd be no grounds for a civil liberties suit if, for example, a Holocaust Survivors' BBS had gotten that file uploaded to it and (probably they'd be as humorless, and unaffected by your plea for a surrealist aesthetic as I have been) the sysop had deleted it because of the distaste of 99% of the usership. In fact, the usership are not necessarily polled on standards of decency that are enforced on the network -- I've seen people threatened with being thrown off for foul enough language or egregious enough personal attacks on others. Couldn't you consider that equally censorship? So I'm a user expressing my opinion. It doesn't happen to be a popular one, and I'm accused of liberal authoritarianism, while I think some at least of the critics are guilty of knee-jerkism to raise the specter of censorship. There's no serious civil liberties argument here, just a morality play. I agree with you that things'd be in a pretty sorry state if everyone had a right to expect that anything that happened to offend them be expunged, but communities defie themselves and bolster their self-respect by uniting around some concensus values. (Maybe we should call them "memes" for the purposes of this discussion?) Certainly the postwar "civilized" world has united around a shared abhorrence of fascism, Nazism and genocide, these icons have a positively *archetypal* significance as representations of evil incarnate. That's precisely why they have such power to provoke and offend when "taken in vain." Apparently, to judge by the concensus here, th Channel One community, at least those who have had the energy to involve themselves in this discussion, have chosen to commune and define their common decency around their shared reverence for the icons of free speech/freedom/anti-censorship more so than their taking offense in the way I have at this little joke. ¨¨¨eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 11:11 pm, 01-11-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23564+'? Date: 01-12-90 (00:38) Main Board Number: 23566 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 23563 From: RICKY LACY Read: 01-13-90 (01:38) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT You take the file HEIL.ZIP far too seriously. If you really have a serious complaint, why not talk about it with the Byte Brothers themselves? They have their own nationwide conference available ya know. I know you can pick it up on the following boards, check USBBS*.ZIP or any other large national list for the numbers: Executive Network -- Mt. Vernon, NY Thunder Road -- NYC Midwest Info Exchange -- Witchita Data Warp -- Broken Arrow, OK The Data Dimension -- Atlanta Sleepy Hollow -- LA I think you'll find that they are very receptive to your presence and your comments about the product. --- * Via ProDoor 3.1ßR Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23567+'? .. Date: 01-12-90 (17:21) Main Board Number: 23611 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 23563 From: WAYNE MCGUIRE Read: 01-13-90 (01:38) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT EG> But really, tell me if you'd consider it censorship to scrub EG> swastika graffiti off a synagogue wall, which is what I liken EG> this too. Painting swastika graffiti on a synagogue wall I would consider a serious crime; scrubbing it off wouldn't be enough. You'd want to nail the perps and punish them (legally, of course). A synagogue is private property; moreover it is sacred private property; swastika daubers are motived by malice and fanaticism: they are seeking to inflict grave psychological harm on their targets; typically they perform their crimes anonymously: they've got something to hide. HEIL.ZIP meets none of these criteria that I can see. The Bytebrothers signed their ame to it. It seemed more playful (in an admittedly obnoxious and insensitive way) than malicious. It was posted to a space which invites "graffiti" from the general public. Still, I respect your outrage about the file, and you articulate it persuasively. I agree with you about the need to maintain a rough consensus--a set of memes or archetypes--regarding the boundaries of good and evil. We simply disagree about whether the file passes into the realm of unadulterated evil, and whether it should be removed. I find that even my militant libertarianism has its limits. The other night I rented a video of an HBO comedy performance by the notorious Andrew Clay Dice (Adam Clayton Dice?--I can't get his name straight). Whooee!!! He made Eddie Murphy (of _Raw_) and Richard Pryor seem like choirboys. I have never seen so much vile hatred spewed out on a television screen in my life, particularly towards women and Asians. I found myself seriously wondering: does this material go beyond what general decency should allow in any public medium--cable television, videotapes, club performances, or otherwise? Isn't this guy outright inciting hatred and violence towards minorities (and inadvertently defaming Italians more than any other group)? I'm still not sure what the answer should be. I felt the censor in me welling up. (Dice has just enough raw talent to disarm one momentarily. He does a bit on Sylvester Stallone, Robert De Niro, Eric Roberts, John Travolta and Al Pacino as boy scouts on a camping expedition that has to be seen to be believed. Truly funny stuff.) Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23612+'? ... Date: 01-13-90 (01:38) Main Board Number: 23673 To: WAYNE MCGUIRE Refer#: 23611 From: ELIOT GELWAN Read: 01-13-90 (04:29) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT WMI find that even my militant libertarianism has its limits. The WMother night I rented a video of an HBO comedy performance by the WMnotorious Andrew Clay Dice (Adam Clayton Dice?--I can't get his name WMstraight). Whooee!!! He made Eddie Murphy (of _Raw_) and Richard WMPryor seem like choirboys. I have never seen so much vile hatred WMspewed out on a television screen in my life, particularly towards WMwomen and Asians. I found myself seriously wondering: does this WMmaterial go beyond what general decency should allow in any public WMmedium--cable television, videotapes, club performances, or otherwise Yes, I had heard about him (I think it's ...Dice Clay). As you might imagine, I'm saddened and bothered by the hate genre in stand-up comedy (yes, there seems to be a genre). But I'm not as surprised that he *exists* as by his seeming popularity. I'm going to have to rent one of his videos and experience it for myself...maybe his talent is what appeals, as you suggest. Given the response I got here about HEIL.ZIP, I'll of course think twice, even if I'm offended enough, about demanding that my local video store stop featuring his tapes... ¨¨¨eliot --- ■ EZ 1.24 #178 ■ Entered 11:36 pm, 01-12-1990 at Cambridge MA. Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. [1;33m(26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23674+'? ... Date: 01-13-90 (18:29) Main Board Number: 23740 (Echo) To: DAVID BIRNBAUM Refer#: 23211 From: BETSY SCHWARTZ Read: 01-13-90 (20:46) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT DB> I am afraid that my posting was not worded as clearly as DB>I had intended, since I do not agree with your position at all. DB>By private boycott I meant a *private* boycott, whereby Mr. Gel- DB>win does not download HEIL.zip and you do not download x-rated DB>gifs. I did not mean a public call for an institutional boycott, DB>whereby individual users suggest to the sysops that certain mate- DB>rials that they consider offensive be banned entirely from Chan- Well, I guess we don't agree. I'm not going to get radical about this though, or take it any farther. I also would not ban such materials from the public library. I just think a bbs is more likea rpivate bookstore than a public library; something that reflects the expertise and taste of those who manage it. DB>proprietor. The intervention of the thought police would mean DB>that someone would screen the materials that might be available DB>to us. Some people who have held truly unpopular ideas or who DB>have spent a significant amount of time in totalitarian states See, I would NEVER advocate against the rights of others to start their own BBS's and that is the difference here. Those folks could start their own bbs, we are NOT the sole source of electronically published materials. If we were, if this were a central state-run bbs, then I would be advocating for free speech. I also thing that theres a difference between free speech, between people advocating genuinely held but unpopular beliefs, and the banalization of evil that is typified by using Nazi metaphors for a directory shell. 'Course, that's just my taste I suppose. DB>might feel that this is bad policy, no matter how tempting it DB>might be to say "but this case is different." I applaud the DB>hands-off policy of the sysops at Channel1. DB> DB> I think we both know the standard arguments for the vari- DB>ous positions here and I don't really have anything new to add to DB>my previous comments, but I was concerned by your suggestion that DB>our positions might be similar. I would not urge you to carry DB>racist literature or pornography in your hypothetical bookstore DB>and I would no urge the sysops of Channel1 to prohibit the dis- DB>tribution of any materials here. I do not see how you can DB>profess to be opposed to censorship while feeling that it is ap- DB>propriate to suggest banning certain materials from places where DB>you like to hang out (such as Channel1) so that you will not have DB>to be reminded of their existence. Marching unpopular ideas into DB>the ghetto is less extreme than marching them into exterminationDB>camps, but it is still censorship. I would welcome the natural DB>death of certain ideas that I find objectionable, but I would not DB>legislate restricting them. I personally find many things on DB>Channel1 far more offensive than either HEIL.zip or x-rated gifs; DB>my evaluations are not objectively any better or worse than DB>yours. (As Dave Barry has put it, "The important things isn't so DB>much *what* you want to ban; it's the fact that you participate DB>in the banning process. That's what democracy is all about.") DB> DB> I am content to tolerate the presence of materials I find DB>offensive; I do not believe this can ever be as harmful as the DB>suppression of selected materials by persons whose only claim to DB>moral superiority may be that they are more outspoken or more DB>numerous than people who feel differently. I use *ever* in the DB>preceding sentence deliberately. DB> DB>--David DB>--- DB> ■ EZ-Reader 1.21 ■ --- ■ EZ-Reader 1.14 ■ Well it's not just me and it's not just you t Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23741+'? .. Date: 01-13-90 (20:21) Main Board Number: 23758 To: ELIOT GELWAN Refer#: 23563 From: JAMES GERBER Read: 01-15-90 (00:08) Subj: CENSORSHIP AND RESTRAINT EG>call them "memes" for the purposes of this discussion?) Certainly th EG>postwar "civilized" world aas united around a shared abhorrence of EG>fascism, Nazism and genocide, these icons have a positively EG>*archetypal* significance as representations of evil incarnate. EG>That's precisely why they have such power to provoke and offend when EG>"taken in vain." Apparently, to judge by the concensus here, the I rea;;y feel sorry for society if the name "nazi" means more than the ideas and acts that these beasts represented. On the one hand we have the HEIL program which has no such end in mind ... and on the other, we have the Kahane's who very much do represent all the ideas AND actions of the Nazi's with one exception: they don't use any of the names and images of the Nazis. Now, I may be wrong, but I get the impression you're not bothered by the ideas and actions of the Nazis so much as you're bothered by the name. It's a real perversion of something or other to be so concerned by a tasteless joke when that bastard Kahane is trying to bring back the third Reich with a different cast of characters. Surely we have more important things to do to make this a better world than restrict the distribution of tasteless jokes and pictures of naked ladies. --- ■ EZ 1.24 ■ [[ The Big Cheese ]] Zip search for (HEIL), (Enter)=Continue search, (Z)=Quit search. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='23759+'? .......... Not found. (26 left) [Main Board] Mail Command: (Enter)='21886+'?

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