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User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 41 71250,2256 NAS SIG 47 72170,50 BPC 18 Joe Reichardt 48 72135,424 PNX 18 Drax 62 72750,1266 SYR SIG 74 75376,1620 CVK 18 Elad 85 76703,266 WBU 18 G-WIZ (18,G-WIZ) hi joe. (18,Drax) Joe Reichardt, where have I heard that name? (18,Joe Reichardt) Several SIGs (18,Drax) Gosh, its happening.... (18,Drax) I'm confusing reality with CIS! (18,G-WIZ) ha! (18,Drax) OK, so like, where's Rick? (18,Elad) He'll be here!!!! I hope? (18,Drax) There he is. Hi Rick (18,G-WIZ) is he someone? (18,Rick) Hello. Howare You Doing? (18,G-WIZ) ga (18,Elad) Yes, Rick is someone. (18,Drax) He's one of us. (18,Drax) An alien! (18,Rick) This feels like my obituary! (18,Drax) It may be an obit for MJ-12, from what I hear. GA (18,G-WIZ) why? (18,Elad) Rick, tell Drax aboout the Forrestal Diary (18,Elad) connection to (18,Drax) Before you start.... (18,Drax) Joe, do you know what we're talking about? MJ-12? (18,Joe) Yes, I read the uploads, ga (18,Drax) OK. GA Rick. (18,G-WIZ) ga (18,Rick) One of the alleged documents (18,Rick) is a briefing from Hillenkoetter in which (18,Rick) he supposedly reefences the death of (18,Rick) Secy of Defense Forresttal (18,Rick) in I believe, May 1949 (18,Rick) as the reason for his (18,Rick) replacement in that month by (18,Rick) General Smith. I was interested by (18,Rick) the use of such a specific date and did some (18,Rick) research on Forrestall...Apparent;y (18,Rick) he died in that month by jumping from the (18,Rick) 16th floor of the Batesda Naval Hospital, However, (18,Rick) he had resigned his duties, in March of that (18,Rick) year prior to his hospitalization for (18,Rick) severe depression...Eithe the Hillenkoetter (18,Rick) refernce is a misstatement, or it is (18,Rick) a mistake in the forgery. ga (18,Elad) For investigative inquiry... (18,Elad) He died on May 21-22 while on the sixteenth floor... (18,Elad) reading Mark Van Doren's 'Anthology of World Poetry." (18,Drax) Isn't it possible... (18,Drax) that he was replaced by MJ-12 in May because he had.... (18,Drax) been relieved of duty in March? I'd have to.... (18,Drax) reread the document for the specific wording. GA (18,Rick) Yes. That is a possibility... (18,Rick) but would it be SOP to keep him on for such an important (18,Rick) function...when he had resigned from all others? ga (18,Drax) Depends.... (18,Drax) we don't know how often MJ-12 met....they were usually.... (18,Drax) scattered around the country, and would not name a replacement.... (18,Drax) without meeting in person. Just a possibility. GA (18,Rick) In terms of trhe wording (18,Rick) I think Hillenkoetter refers to the fact of his (18,Rick) death and not his resignation as the cause for his (18,Rick) replacement, so your thought may be correct... (18,Rick) I don't think we have enough data at this point to (18,Rick) reach a fina lconclusion. ga (18,Drax) Right, but I think you've raised a very interesting point,... (18,Drax) and its one that definitely demands some close attention. GA (18,Joe) Given the close proximity in time to his resignation and death ... (18,Joe) We might be reading too much into the document ... (18,Joe) It is possible that the General was just being polite in mentioning .. (18,Joe) His death and ignoring his illiness... (18,Joe) Just a thought GA (18,Drax) I suppose. GA Rick. (18,Rick) Indeed. And I have some Curiosity as to the causes (18,Rick) of his Deep depresssion only aabout 20 months after (18,Rick) the creation of MJ-12. ga (18,Drax) Didn't it have something to do with Japan? That's the.... (18,Drax) official story, anyway. GA Elad. (18,Drax) OK...GA Rick (18,Rick) His biographers attribute it to his heavy workload. ga (18,Drax) I think there was more to it than that. I've forgotten, but... (18,Drax) someone told me something about a row between him and..... (18,Drax) MacArthur, or something, on what to do about Japan. GA (18,Rick) Yes. apparently he tried to turn i (18,Rick) his resignation in January of 1949 and the President (18,Rick) refused to accept it...only to ask for (18,Rick) it again in MArrch. ga (18,Drax) You know, the more I think about it.... (18,Drax) the more I would think that Truman, who was in complete... (18,Drax) control of MJ-12, would have named his successor right away. Very.... (18,Drax) strange indeed. But on the other hand, there is the corroborating.... (18,Drax) evidence that has been turned up so far on MJ-12, such as the .... (18,Drax) Cutler to Twining memo, Willy Smith's mention as far back as 1960.... (18,Drax) of a top secret group headed by Bush, and a couple of other people.... (18,Drax) who have told me personally that MJ-12 is a real govt. entity, which.... (18,Drax) they knew about in name, but didn't attach any importance to until.... (18,Drax) this all started coming out. GA (18,Rick) By the way, in my research I ran across (18,Rick) an article by Vannevar Bush in the NY Times in (18,Rick) which he talked about the recently concluded loyalty hearings (18,Rick) on Oppenheimer...Apparently he also testified in Oppenheimer's (18,Rick) defense as well as Menzel's...Anyway, the virtue (18,Rick) he seems to value most in his article among government (18,Rick) employed scientists is disctretion. ga (18,Drax) Well, if MJ-12 is real, they certainly had a good dose of that.... (18,Drax) these guys apparently didn't even tell their wives!... (18,Drax) Speaking of Menzel, some real definitive research on that.... (18,Drax) angle is being done, and will most likely come to fruition in.... (18,Drax) the next Saucer Smear, or the one after. Can't be more specific,... (18,Drax) but its a goody. GA (18,Rick) ? (18,Drax) ga (18,Rick) How can we subscribe to Saucer Smear? Do you have an address? (18,Drax) Yes...write to Saucer Smear,... (18,Drax) PO Box 1709 (18,Drax) Key West FL 33041 (18,Drax) Hello Aaron (18,aaron) hello all ga (18,Drax) Did you guys read my messages on the MUFON symposium? (18,Joe) Yes (18,Elad) Yes...They were good... (18,aaron) yes (18,Rick) Didn't get a chance (18,Elad) Especially when you mention Dale B. (18,Drax) Gratuitous name-dropper that I am. (18,Elad) And Rick Dell'!! (18,Rick) That's a long one (18,Drax) Speaking of which, have you noticed how many Dales there are out there?.... (18,Drax) Dale Wedge, Dale Harder, Dale Goudie, Dale Kaczmarek, Dale Ledoux... (18,Drax) sheesh! Hard to keep up with them. (18,Elad) Dale Harder is a crystal gazing guy - like (18,Rick) And Shirleyt Maclean (18,Drax) You ol crystal gazer, you. (18,aaron) Are most people here interese in PSI or UFOs? (18,Drax) All of us are, I think, Aaron. U2? (18,aaron) Mostly in PSI. You saw the Nova show on Targ. Is there anything... (18,aaron) beyond 'Mind Race.' which has not yet made it to book form? (18,Drax) No, I missed that show... (18,Drax) by "beyond", do you mean published after? I don't know, but have you... (18,aaron) Oh, great show. Had actual interviews with the participants (18,aaron) themselves. GA (18,Drax) read the Skeptical Inquirer's critique of that book? And.... (18,Joe) ? (18,Drax) Martin Gardner's comments? GA Joe. (18,Joe) Targ.?? (18,aaron) what do they say? (18,Drax) Russel Targ, of Stanford Research Institute..... (18,Drax) he tested Uri Geller. Basically, CSICOP says that the.... (18,Drax) controls used in their (Targ and Puthoff's) experiments.... (18,Drax) weren't nearly as tight as they should be. They cited some good.... (18,Drax) examples of similar work, where magicians were able to fool the .... (18,Drax) scientists completely. GA (18,aaron) true w.r.t Uri... (18,Joe) Thanks, GA (18,aaron) but they did other... (18,aaron) experiments which had bery good controls (18,Drax) Did they have a magician present? If not, I would say the results are.... (18,Drax) inconclusive. GA (18,aaron) no mag8ician present... (18,aaron) but the structure was such (18,aaron) that fakery was not possible... (18,aaron) excepting collusion of the participantsGA (18,Rick) Do we have any lessons or other conclusions (18,Rick) that we can draw from these phenomena or (18,Rick) are they really just interesting for their entertainement (18,Rick) value? ga (18,aaron) they are imprtant to philosophy... (18,aaron) concerning our concenpts of timeGA (18,Drax) Aaron.... (18,Drax) about your comment that "fakery was not possible".... (18,aaron) Yes? (18,Drax) I'm no great lover of CSICOP, but when they make a point well,.... (18,Drax) I'm inclined to adhere to it. They have made the point well that.... (18,Drax) scientists are simply NOT PRIVVY to all the tricks a magician can use... (18,Drax) (almost by definition, since magicians have a code of.... (18,Drax) secrecy) and so they CANNOT KNOW if fakery was impossible.... (18,Drax) unless they follow CSICOPs advice and have a competent.... (18,Drax) magician present at their testing. They have steadfastly refused... (18,Drax) to do this. If fakery is indeed impossible, why not allow a.... (18,Drax) magician to be present? Nothing to lose, right? GA (18,aaron) NoNo... (18,aaron) because sometimes these people will... (18,aaron) by design interrupt an experiment... (18,aaron) with tricks of their own... (18,aaron) thereby destroying any scientific value... (18,aaron) the experiment ever had GA (18,Drax) WHAT??? Can you document that? I've never heard of that.... (18,Drax) happening. Rick you had a comment? (18,aaron) CSICOP position is untenable... (18,Rick) I saw Jus that I had seen Randi (18,aaron) That has happened to TargGA (18,Rick) on a recent Johnny Carson show on which (18,Rick) her performed a Psychic surgerery on a volunteer (18,Rick) from the audience. He made it look very real...BUT (18,Rick) I also understand that the USSR is seriously studying these phenomena (18,Rick) ga (18,Drax) Yes, Ive heard that too, and the US Navy as well. GA, Joe. (18,aaron) Ou (18,Joe) I say the Carson show too, What is the title of his new book??..GA (18,Rick) Don't know, but Randi (18,Rick) ios also a member of CSICOP. ga (18,Drax) I think its about faith healers. Aaron, did you have a comment? GA (18,aaron) Randi picks easy targetsGA (18,Drax) Aaron, Randi has a 10,000 challenge open to EVERY target. .... (18,aaron) True, but his criteria... (18,Drax) there have been over 600 attempts so far, and no one has come close.... (18,aaron) are so difficult.. (18,Drax) AND THERE HAVE BEEN NO LAWSUITS. GA (18,aaron) no one could meet it ... (18,aaron) even if PSI were trueGA (18,Drax) Have you read Flim Flam? GA (18,aaron) no ga (18,Drax) Please read it, then comment on Randi's criteria. GA (18,Rick) What does he say in summary? (18,aaron) I have heard him state them in personGA (18,Drax) OK, I'll answer you in a second Rick...but Aaron, what do you... (18,Drax) find difficult about his criteria? GA (18,aaron) He will not accept.. (18,aaron) statistical data... (18,aaron) he wants to see someonne levitateGA (18,Drax) What's wrong with wanting to see it? Many people claim it. Do you... (18,Drax) believe in levitation? GA (18,aaron) nbo no ga (18,Drax) OK. And I agree that statistical data is valid, IF the tests are.... (18,Drax) controlled. As a matter of fact,... (18,Drax) I've written editorials on how I think CSICOP screwed up in... (18,Drax) its evaluation of the work of Helmut Schmidt. But as far as I know.... (18,Drax) Randi never commented on that work. That was all Gardner. Rick:.... (18,Drax) "Flim Flam" is an excellent book, and shows how scientists can get... (18,Drax) caught up in their own beliefs that ESP works. He also has done some.... (18,Drax) great work on Uri Geller, detailed in "The Magic of Uri Geller." GA (18,Rick) I hate to say it, but (18,aaron) certainly geller was part stage magicinaGA (18,Rick) I see some of that same attitude in ufology. ga (18,Drax) Yes, definitely. GA Elad. (18,Elad) As a lawyer Rick.... (18,Elad) If I tried to get a book by Uri Geller through mail... (18,Elad) and made him prove it... (18,Elad) if he couldn't,,,could it be mail fraud?....... (18,Elad) and how about other such books? (18,Elad) ga (18,Rick) Can you restate that...I don't understand (18,Elad) Yeah...I know.... (18,Elad) In the enquirer and other such books... (18,Elad) people are proclaimiing special events comingg... (18,Elad) the space brothers of 1975....for one.... (18,Elad) and Uri Geller tells how books... (18,Elad) and so on.... (18,Elad) What legalities aree involved in this? (18,Rick) You mean (18,Rick) if the predictions fail to materializew? (18,Elad) for one yes.... (18,Elad) and if the tests (18,Rick) I Have a hunch there is probably some sort (18,Rick) of discalimer in the publication (18,Rick) somewhare disclaiming responsibility (18,Rick) and probably sttting (18,Rick) that these are for entertainment and (18,Rick) not intended to foster belief in the paranormal. ga (18,Elad) ? (18,Drax) Yeah, but who would sue? You have to prove injury. GA, Elad. (18,Rick) yep (18,Rick) ga (18,Elad) Jim...Do you still have those questions and answeres that I sent you? (18,Drax) (My dad's a law-yuh) (18,Drax) No, they got wiped in the crash. I wanna pick up with Aaron, here... (18,Drax) just for a sec.... (18,Drax) And I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, cuz Im not... (18,Drax) but you said Geller is "part" stage magician..... (18,Drax) do you think that some of what he does is real? Specifically,.... (18,Drax) those performances where he is not shown to be using trickery are real? GA (18,aaron) Wait... (18,aaron) I mean the strange events at SRI.. (18,Elad) going beddy by.... (18,aaron) indicates that further research is needed GA (18,Elad) night all (18,Drax) Night, Elad. Aaron....did you know he was allowed to handle.... (18,Drax) the metal in the PK test, that he was not searched before the compass test... (18,Drax) etc. etc.? (18,aaron) I'm talking about the device... (18,aaron) which measures magnetic changes... (18,aaron) it cannot be effected by outside... (18,aaron) changes irregardless of what (18,aaron) Geller was carryingGA (18,Rick) I too shall bid you goodnig (18,Drax) night Rick.... (18,Drax) Aaron...don't you think.... (18,Drax) that a man who is not just a stage magician, but a very highly.... (18,Drax) talented and admired magician, if it is proven that he.... (18,Drax) actually used magic in some of his "ESP", would PROBABLY have used it.... (18,Drax) in all of his demonstrations? I mean, why can't there be a Uri Geller.... (18,Drax) out there who has NO experience with magic? THAT would be interesting. GA (18,aaron) perhaps there are.. (18,aaron) its just we call them the chairman of the board... (18,aaron) saleman of the year... (18,aaron) investor of the yearGA (18,Drax) Well, maybe so. There's certainly a lot of stuff out there that is.... (18,Drax) unexplained, and I think CSICOP is on a witch hunt in a lot of ways.... (18,Drax) but I think they make a good point when they say that our will to believe... (18,Drax) in ESP is something that we have to be EXTRA careful about. GA (18,aaron) same things happens .... (18,aaron) in so called real science... (18,aaron) i've seen it myself in the lab GA (18,Drax) I gotta go, but we do this every week at 8PM Eastern. See you next week? (18,aaron) ok I'l,ll see how nmy budget is?? NG GN GnGnGA (18,Drax) thththththtats all folks..... (18,Drax) Goodnite! Function:


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