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By: FSNS Goliath BBS Re: holysmoke.faq.aa 旼컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 쿢PDATED VERSION 읕컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Header컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴 쿟he HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List 쿎reated by David Rice 낢 쿎urrent Author: C. J. Henshaw 낢 Author/Editor: Rev. Coridon Henshaw (Church of OS/2) 낢 낢 쿗ast Revised 15 Jan 11996 - Revision 666.025 낢 낢 쿎ompilation Copyright 1995 Coridon Henshaw. All rights reserved. 낢 쿔ndividual quotations remain the property of their respective owners. 낢 쿑ree license for intra-HOLYSMOKE duplication and distribution. 낢 쿏UPLICATION OR DISCLOSURE TO NON-HOLYSMOKE PARTICIPENTS PROHIBITED. 낢 낢 쿔f you are reading this on a WWW site, inform the author at the 낢 쿪ddress at the bottom of this file. 낢 읕컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴45 92袂 굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇굇 굇 Disclaimers袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial location. Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not ignite. Do not eat. Definitions of words may vary. Contents may settle during transfer. 1: Introduction袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 旼컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴커 쿧OU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT! 읕컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴켸 See section 4.3 for details. 旼컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴커robe旼컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴 쿧OU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!퀁tja쿧OU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT! 읕컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴켸ckso읕컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴 The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other echoes in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the past four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their brainwashing, but there's always the chance that some god-believing cash-cow will stop denying reality, so we continue to try. All entries marked [OBSOLETE] will be deleted in the next version unless someone asks for them to be retained. This document is posted every four weeks. 2: Terminology袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 atheist One who has no belief in deities. See 3.x for details. Atheist Member of Amarican Athiests, inc. athiest Used by theists to refer to those without morals. agnostic An atheist without guts. fundi Religous fundamentalist. See 3.6 for details. liberal Anyone winning an argument with a creationist. Hir Gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir." 3: Q&A袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 3.1 Q: What is HOLYSMOKE? A: HOLYSMOKE is Fidonet's only non-denominational, uncensored religion debate echo. Debates such as fundies vs athists can be conducted here without danger of loosing your feed, like in other areas such as HOLY_BIBLE or any other "christian" echo. 3.2 Q: Why was HOLYSMOKE created? A: The moderator (Styx Allum) originally started the echo as a joke on some local fundies. It took off from there. 3.3 Q: What kind of behavior is alowed here? A: Most anything, including flames. One thing that will get you booted is modification of other people's quotes. If somebody says fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to 'f***' or some other variation, you will be clobbered. Check the rules (posted on an ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for more information. 3.4 Q: Are "flames" allowed? A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy if you extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't like flames, stick to posting what you know or can validate. Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or reading 'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you medium-rare. A: It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the board between the eyes to get your attention works. [Dan Ceppa] .4.1 Q: Will argument from authority get me flamed? A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and content. Claiming that several bright people support your assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT make it so. Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a biologist on cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- because you will get roasted. Saying "Einstein believed in God (he didn't) therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright people CAN and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well educated in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields. .4.2 Q: Will poor spelling get flamed? A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too, to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great Questions humans have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy speller telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't seem likely. If one does not know the difference between "Their" and "they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for one to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the universe?! 3.5 Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke? A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist resorts to eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the topic at hand. A: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow down before GOD before we all roast in Hell. Then there are those who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their "Book" and attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right. As for myself, I could care less who a person worships, although I usually strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular student of biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century Judah. Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and a attempt to understand what was REALLY going on! By far the biggest problem though, are those who insist I should pay to support their religion. Our city supports a separate school system for Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs every one of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed on those who do not wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything to do with religion must suffer through innumerable disturbances from people who insist their religion should be in the forefront. THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in this echo! [John Musselwhite] 3.6 Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies) A: FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an American conservative religious movement that believes in biblical inerrancy. This movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) criticism of the Bible that originated among European theologians and was accepted by American "modernists". Fundamentalism owes its name to the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being essential to the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two varieties; (about more later) but are united by the belief that each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least, their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true. When they find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as the ultimate truth. But when confronted with an apparent contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite significance. Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist, (H.n.i. var. ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the extraordinarily annoying ability of being able to interject their own personal version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional. H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is functionally illiterate. Though some may become transplanted to more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old habits: mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based bleating. A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is really a regressive event) is responsible for the other variety: H.n.i. var. urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to exploit the trophism of bright lights, television cameras, teleprompters and wireless communication. Basically, a member of this group can be described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned religious zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other familiar sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety around their shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow travelers", "one-worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of the next, they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to think for themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to "REPENT!" and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting smoke, fury, fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine addiction. The venue may change, but the song always remains the same. Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited above represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though, it is more of a U-turn. [Marty Leipzig] A: Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their thinking with these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among some American Protestants, the movement based on this belief: opposed to _modernism_. [Don Martin] 3.7 Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?" A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and baseless claims, and then insists that others believe these claims, one may expect a little heat. Some assertions that generate heat: "My book was written by god because it says so, and god wouldn't lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves such-and-such." "I'll pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful atheists." .7.0 Q: "Why is everyone attacking me? I'm only giving you the Good News" A: Look. You don't see it as being offensive, or pushing, or whatever, [to preach at us] but then *you* aren't the one being offended, are you. Think of it in these terms: you are not the one who decides whether or not someone else wants to hear about your religious views. Indeed, the other person may have very well-formed and solid religious views of their own. And your rather rude insistence on discussing your religion and why that other person should start *following* your religion is offensive. Understand? Its not the content of the message which is offensive. Its the assumption that you, as a Christian, have some sort of universal permission to ram that message down our throats that makes us mad at you. [Jack Butler] .7.1 Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh, PLEASE drive those nails in harder!] A: Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice or other unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks were known to be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you would not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need to be controlled. However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as a group, is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or controlling them. You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely unwarranted. Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their actions. They discriminate against gays, against people who have sex before marriage, against women, against scientists. All of that discrimination is based on - and please make very careful note of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice to adopt a belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent part. You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at any deity, let alone a specific deity. The only way to adopt the belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice. You choose to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred. Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey Bjarnason] 3.8 Q: What is "Crucifixation?" A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and martyred hirself. This fixation prevents those afflicted with it to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman fashion, when death by stoning was the preferred method of disposing of sons of Gods. 3.9 Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?" A: This is a reference to the so-called global flood 'theory' presented by biblical literalists. 3.10 Q: What is "One Nation Under God?" A: The state of theocratic opression that fundamentalists desire to impose on the country in which they reside. 3.11 Q: What is a "Creationist?" A: One who believes that the earth was created in six days, exactly as told in the bible. Such people always fail to notice the two different creation accounts contained in Genisis 1:x and 2:x. 3.12 Q: What's this "IHS!" thing? A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear just who "His" may be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat sausage!" "I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. The most common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is "In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By this sign we conquer." [OBSOLETE] 3.13 Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?" A: When atrocities are performed by Christians in the name of God, their partners in religion say they were not Real True Christians. Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God Jehovah, John Salvi, Paul Hill, Senator Exon, Timothy Mcvay, David Koresh and the IRA. A: Any Christian who belongs to a 'false christian' sect. For example, Catholics are false christians to Protestants. .13.1Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true Christians among us. A: Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, against groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize all gays and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP affinity groups; you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities of a few doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are doctrinaire Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their kind, yet expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? [Paul Boyer] .13.2Q: What is a "Real True Christian?" A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute. .13.3Q: What is a cult? A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do. A: A religon without political power. 3.14 Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean? A: This is the common reference to Christian foot-stomping arguments. (I.E. It's so because I say it is!) 3.15 Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?" A: The exact account of Genisis in the New Testiment. However, biblical passages do not meet the requirements for a scientific theory. See 3.x for more information on scientific theories. A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism, because they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach it in public school, yet they still demand that it should. 3.16 Q: What are Star Goat and Dopefish? A: These made-up gods are used as a defense against 'prove God doesn't exist' argments made by theists. 3.17 Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me? A: Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove she doesn't! When someone brings up the non-measurability of their favorite god (Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah), others bring up Daisy and point out that the evidence she exists is identical to the evidence their god(s) exist. See 3.16 3.18 Q: What's an Athiest? (note spelling and case) A: Christians use this word to represent people without morals; heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; gays; Democrats. .18.1Q: What's an atheist? A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ: Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong atheism". It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials. "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?" Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. .18.2Q: What is an "Agnostic?" A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not. 3.19 Q: What is HOLY_BIBLE? A: This echo is run by Steve Winter (no S), who has professed it to be THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing that the echoes are Christian. 3.20 Q: What is a Sheneism? A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time, later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I hate it when that happens!). The first time someone made this claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person this happened to blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and going, eh? 3.21 Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE? A: Creationists refuse to go to the EVOLUTION echo, because there are several more well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected of their errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are several highly knowledgeable people in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims. EVOLUTION is also less-widly carried in the bible-belt than HOLYSMOKE is. 3.22 Q: Are there any Satanists here? A: No. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in the USA is from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim. 3.23 Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and Muslims? A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe them--we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second, and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting our secular nation through political means, not Satanists (how many Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in prayer?). 3.24 Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus? A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's speaking for his god. In the three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just those who claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians commit crimes in the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we blame the criminals. 3.25 Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF? A: A child preparing to feed a bird. If you have an Internet address, ask Martin Goldberg to send you a copy. 3.26 Q: NOODLES??? A: I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not only did they last, not only did several take home a container full of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. Finally, they had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. I have seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for the better, in ways that could only be called a miracle. The LORD russles the leaves if you are willing listen." [Jerry Randall] 3.27 Q: What are the requirements for a someting to be a theory? Is Creationism a theory? A: I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at all but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of evolution is used, according to these criteria, to describe the fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these criteria to describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a new theory to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while waiting to see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of gravity. So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and discover what a theory is... A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental categories of criteria by which theories are judged: (1) logical criteria (2) empirical criteria (3) sociological criteria (4) historical criteria. There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be: (1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing unnecessary ("Occam's Razor" [see section 4 -ch]) (1.b) logically consistent internally (1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which the theory could be imagined to be invalid) (1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions so that it is clear whether or not any particular data are or are not relevant to the verification or falsification of the theory. The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection. An idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories must make clear patterns of things and relationships between things. These patterns and relationships must be internally logical and consistent since these are required attributes of all sound explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least logically if not by actual experiment, or else tautologies or other logically sterile constructions might be admissible as theories. Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or else there will be criteria for determining whether or not any particular observation or experiments should or should not be explainable by the theory. In fact, if a theory is totally unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any observation that is irrelevant to verifying the theory. Thus, an unbounded theory would not be falsifiable. And, if a theory cannot be falsified, it cannot be self-corrected. Yet self-correctability is precisely the characteristic that gives scientific theories their epistemological power: a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by attempts to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be corrected or extended. Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A theory must: (2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions or retrodictions that are testable (2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions (2.c) concern reproducible results (2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as irrelevant. The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by the theory and verify its predictions or retrodictions); some may be artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental influences lying outside the boundaries set for the validity of the theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid within the bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so, invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not at all. Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology does not exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test). Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and so is useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One can, at best, only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the scientific purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may possibly be observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would not know what to look for, where, how to look for it, under what conditions, or know whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the theory. If everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for it can exist. A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that make predictions and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, either by the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent discovery of relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is in need of correction or extension. And, of course, a theory based upon irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the very fact that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary conditions governing the collection of the data have not been properly set, or the original data may have been due simply to coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the theory. Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a theory. A theory must: (3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or anomalies irresolvable on the basis of preexisting scientific theories (3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which scientists may work (3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which these new problems may be expected to be resolved (3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations beneficial to the problem-solving abilities of other scientists. Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that does not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research activity of scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn anything they were unable to learn before. A theory therefore has no sociological value unless it provides a model for new or more efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory must be stated in terms that are operationally useful to the community of scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific. Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well: historical ones. A theory must: (4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its predecessors or demonstrate that any abandoned criteria are artifactual (4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired by previous theories through their history of testing or, put another way, be able to explain all of the data gathered under previous relevant theories in terms either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed) (4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories that already have established scientific validity. These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are correctable. Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and promotes the consistency and integration of all scientific explanations, without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick and choose data that favor their explanations while ignoring previously recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own ideas. The historical criteria make such unscientific procedures nearly impossible. The historical records of each science stand as a monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer a science has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge concerning any particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge into a new and consistent framework. [Robert Root-Bernstein] In short ...[-ch] if you have a better theory of how the diversity of species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it into the above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will remain as they now are. The facts that are manifest under the banner of evolution will not go away while your theory is being developed. If you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of evolution that fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you can do so and not before. [Simon Ewins] 3.28 Q: Is there a biological basis for fundamentalism? I mean, people can't be this stupid without extra help. A: You (and others here) may find interesting the article by Rebecca Lee, "The Jerusalem Syndrome" in The Atlantic Monthly (May 1995, pp 24-38). There are LOTS of Messiahs around, and protestants are particularly susceptible. All it takes for many is to visit Jerusalem and experience a religious overload. The authorities find ice middle-class Americans wandering the surrounding hillsides, dressed in bedsheets. David Koresh was one such who recognized his own divinity in 1983 and did not get treatment for it. The treatment is a drug Haloperidol, "a dopamine antagonist; some psychiatrists hypothesize that too much dopamine can cause the mind to be overactive and project to excess, to translate what _is_ into what _might be_--an action of faith. An overabundance of dopamine, then may blur the differences on perceives between oneself and God. Haloperidol blocks some of the dopamine receptors, closes the gates, prevents interplay in the mind between what is seen and what is unseen, discourages the leap of faith. Physicians keep the dosage very low, however, fearing that too much of the drug might wipe out the religious imagination entirely." (p 38, col a) Perhaps we atheists are simply hypodopaminic to the hyper-of the fundies. Better things for better living through chemistry . . . . [Now all you need to do is slip a large amount of Haloperidol into Washington D.C's water supply and you'll have no more fundies in office...] 3.29 Q: What is the Necronomicon? A: [...] The Necronomicon began life as an interesting and eldritch bit of frippery that H. P. Lovecraft invented to liven up some of his stories and add the element of Things Which Man Was Not Meant To Know to them. Abdul Alhazred is likewise a fiction. The only book bearing the name that I have seen in print was written in the late '70s and is a mish-mash of pseudo-Sumerian babble. It is not the "real" Necronomicon, if there ever could be such a thing. It is merely a stupidly written and very funny bit of junk whose main claim to fame is the use of the title. Most people with any sense whatsoever realize that the Necronomicon is indeed a fraud and anyone purporting to have anything like a real copy of it is off his gyros. [Preston Simpson] 3.30 Q: How old is the earth? How do we know? A: The most direct means for calculating the earth's age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-208/Pb-204. If the solar system formed form a common pool of matter, which was uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall on a single point. However, amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of U (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207). If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed with respect to U isotope ratios, then this change will cause the data points to move away from each other, but they will always fall on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can derive the amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became separated into individual objects. A creationist would object to all of the "assumptions" listed above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data to plot on a line. The resulting plot for five meteorites that contained uranium, a single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one for modern ocean sediments. It looks like this: Y-axis: ratio of Pb[207]/Pb[204] X-axis: ratio of Pb[206]/Pb[204]. 旼컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴커 7 30 6 20 4 5 3 2 10 1 읕컴컴컨컴컴컴좔컴컴컨컴컴컴좔컴컴컨컴컴컴좔컴컴컨컴컴컴좔컴컴컨켸 10 20 30 40 50 Data points: (1) Iron Meteorites; (2) Beardsley; (3) Modern sediments and young galenas; (4) Saratov; (5) Elenovka; (6) Richardton; (7) Nuevo Laredo. I can't really do it justice in ASCII, I recommend interested parties to get the original. (Dalrymple, 1986, Figure 12) The slope of the line in the above chart gives an age of 4.55 0.07 billion years. Most of the other measurements for the age of the earth rest upon calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are less geologically active (such as meteorites). Below is a table of radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites: 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 Number Type Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr) 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 Chondrites 13 Sm-Nd 4.21 +/- 0.76 Carbonaceous chondrites 4 Rb-Sr 4.37 +/- 0.34 Chondrites (undist. H) 38 Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.02 Chondrites (all) 50 Rb-Sr 4.43 +/- 0.04 H Chondrites (undist.) 17 Rb-Sr 4.52 +/- 0.04 H Chondrites 15 Rb-Sr 4.59 +/- 0.06 L Chondrites (rel. und.) 6 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.12 L Chondrites 5 Rb-Sr 4.38 +/- 0.12 LL Chondrites (undist.) 13 Rb-Sr 4.49 +/- 0.02 LL Chondrites 10 Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.06 E Chondrites (undist.) 8 Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.04 E Chondrites 8 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.13 Eucrites (polymict) 23 Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.19 Eucrites 11 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.30 Eucrites 13 Lu-Hf 4.57 +/- 0.19 Diogenites 5 Rb-Sr 4.45 +/- 0.18 Iron (+ St. Severin) 8 Re-Os 4.57 +/- 0.21 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 291; duplicate studies on identical meteorite types omitted.) As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on about 4.5 billion years, between hundreds of different meteorites and by several different dating methods. Further, studies on individual meteorites generally give concordant ages by multiple radiometric means. For example: 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 Meteorite Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr) 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 Guarena w-rock Ar-Ar 4.44 +/- 0.06 13 sam Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.08 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Olivenza 18 sam Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.16 w-rock Ar-Ar 4.49 +/- 0.06 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Saint Severin 4 sam Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.33 10 sam Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.15 w-rock Ar-Ar 4.43 +/- 0.04 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Juvinas 5 sam Sm-Nd 4.56 +/- 0.08 5 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.07 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Y-75011 9 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.05 7 sam Sm-Nd 4.52 +/- 0.16 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 (After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 286; meteorites dated by only a single means omitted, duplicated methods omitted.) Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly by Rb-Sr dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are in exact agreement with the solar system "model lead age" produced earlier. [Chris Stassen] 3.31 Q: What is evolution? A: "Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene frequencies of populations over the generations in time that produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with modification": a painfully slow process, usually operating over hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years and generations. Geological and paleontological additions to this definition are noted in the fact that over the span of geological time, organisms have progressed from the simple to the more complex. There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, which should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the general process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise to new species) change, which is considered a well established scientific fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to higher life forms [though now largely discredited], (3.) the particular history of the "Tree of Life" and the origins of various groups, or phylogenies, which are interpreted from the fossil record and biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism of evolution, which Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural selection", but is currently being investigated and modified by scientific research. Punctuated equilibria is an example of the latter. Here following are some of the major arguments and objections that Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers from the perspective of mainstream science: 1. FACT, OR THEORY? Evolution became established as fact because it unified thousands of disparate observations by comparative anatomists, botanists, field naturalists, geologists, paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists. Without the unifying concept of a changing world in process over eons of time, modern science could not and would not exist. That species are related through common ancestry is supported by scores of interlocking research fields, each which supports the rest. Evolution is as well established fact as gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not going to stop falling in midair while scientists debate whether Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing over time, while we continue to search for the why and how of evolution. If one insists that evolution is but one interpretation of nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of dinosaurs and species that preceded them and postdated them were _not_ related to each other, appeared full blown and had no common connections? Such a model, call it "religious" or call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful inquiry. It is rather an answer that stops all further ques questions. 2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION: While some critics concede that new species (_Drosophilia sp._, for example) have been produced in the lab, they claim general evolution has never been experimentally demonstrated. By this, they mean breeding a succession of progressively "higher" or more complex species. But, there is no such theory of general evolution (i.e., a strawman), the old Victorian notions of "inevitable progress" as opposed to the simple to more complex progress noted in the fossil record, biologically are outmoded and well discarded. 3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS: The time worn and oft-repeated claim that there are no transitional forms is demonstrably false. The Great Karroo region of South Africa is a vast graveyard of mammal-like reptiles, a whole array of species whose anatomy was intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There is the famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth, claws and dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between reptiles and birds. And the African homonid fossils represent creatures with human-like dental patterns, small brains, arms longer than humans but shorter than modern apes, with pelves, feet and legs for upright walking. Transitional fossils are fairly rare because, going by current theory, most species remain stable for long periods. When change does occur, it happens in a relatively rapid (in geological terms) timespan and oftimes occurred in small, isolated populations. The fossil record has been compared to freezing a multileveled parking garage in time. Most cars would be found on the various floors, with very few on the ramps. The amount of time each car spends on the ramp is short when compared to the length of time it remains parked, yet each must have traveled the ramp. Another evidence of transition is found in biogeographic distribution of living species. On Pacific island chains, biologists have tracked populational species across thousands of miles, discovering intermediate forms from one end of the island chain to the other. Among living species, there is a series of intermediate species between lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and thrushes and wrens. 4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF": There is a very common misconception the Darwin thought he had "proved" by logic that species evolved. He was, in fact, a much subtler thinker and philosopher of science. "The change of species cannot be directly proved, and...the doctrine must sink or swim according as it groups and explains [disparate] phenomena. It is unequivocally curious how few people judge it this way, which is the correct way. 5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS: That there are "holes" and unanswered questions in evolutionary theory (just as there are in quantum theory) is incontrovertible, which is normal for healthy science. As noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark forest, would you reject a dim, flickering lantern on the grounds the light it gave was imperfect?" "I think not", mused Huxley, "I think not." 6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST": This hoary old chestnut that evolutionary theory is built on the tautological pretense that "the survivors survive" was laid to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the fittest survive" is an untestable proposition without a uniform definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as an explanation. But whatever the state of those archaic "catch-phrases", such as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from monkeys", the heart of Darwin's theory remains sound: overproduction of offspring in nature, genetic variability and a sorting process, which results in both long-term stability and episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new research is focusing on gaining a deeper understanding of these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential sorting as they occur on various levels within populations of the same organism. 7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE": Some assume that research and inquiry into biology and zoology must lead to the formulation of fixed laws like those of chemistry or physics. Dissecting the anatomical structures of extinct creatures, working out their distribution in evolutionary hyperspace and reconstructing the Earth's past indeed meets and exceeds all the criteria of science; as evidenced by paleontology, geology and biostratigraphy. The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution as a "humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors in understanding and even the loss of human life. For example, Dr. L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda University (Seventh-Day Adventist) "school" of medicine tried to save the life "Baby Fae", an infant born with a severely malformed heart. He surgically implanted a baboon's heart, but the organ was quickly rejected and the child died. He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead use a chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a much better chance of success because of the chimp's closer evolutionary proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that he "didn't believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see what it had to do with the practice of medicine." Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context quoting, and bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's oxymoronically monikered "Institute of Creation Research"; who spend their time at their self-described "God directed ministry" trying to inculcate their own particularly skewed, and narrowly sectarian, version of Biblically mandated (or so they say) morality, into the science curricula of public schools across the nation; and we can see how the unfortunate bastard child of hard-shell religion and fanatical pseudoscience is indeed homeless. Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", other than a prime example of a once popular belief that has been shown to be an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific documents, specious reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-mechanistic processes, it belongs in that dustbin of outdated and useless speculations like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and Geocentrism. Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR crowd try to pawn off as "religiously-ordained". Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an authoritarian philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of supernaturalism trying, in vain, to somewhere find a home. It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is hanging out "No Vacancy" signs whenever they ooze into town. [Marty Leipzig] 4: Debate Terms袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 4.1 ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, a basic scientific principle.) Examples: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise." "Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has shown any proof that they are real." Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is generally assumed innocent until proven guilty. Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example: "A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water to be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water, even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such flood occurred." 4.2 ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. Examples: "The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?" "Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong." 4.3 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot. 4.4 ACCENTUS Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from the emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase. 4.5 AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement, and the truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the syllogism below, P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent: P implies Q Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent ______________ Therefore: P is true Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true. 4.6 AMBIGUITY Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is used in different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are several types of "fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY [4.7], COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS [4.4]. 4.7 AMPHIBOLY Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity involved is of an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature. Amphiboly is a syntactic error. The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can result in a meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has pants for men with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!) 4.8 ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always been." Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It must be true! 4.9 ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause the acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include threats of fear to cause acceptance. Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god. 4.10 ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those with more money are more likely to be right. 4.11 ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA FLAME) Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack someone's character instead of dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments: (1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial. 4.12 ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam." 4.13 ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted. 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs constant repitition in asserting a truth. Short form: an argument that is repeated so many times that you suffer nausea. 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer than something else. Or that something is better because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the opposite of the "argumentum ad antiquitam" fallacy. 4.16 ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude (i.e., the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions of audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also known as "Appeal to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2) demagoguery, and (3) advertising. 4.17 ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on matters outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also refers to a fallacy of simply resorting to appeals to authority. 4.18 BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING) Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the very conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying this is: Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you are trying to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus in Probando." This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII". Example: The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real becase the Bible said so. 4.19 BIFURCATION Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation is the presentation of a situation or condition with only two alternatives, whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist. 4.20 COMPOSITION Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a property solely because its various parts have that property. Composition is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. 4.21 CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P. Example: Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution supports Hitler. 4.22 CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they occur simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together they are causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events. This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy. 4.23 DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the consequent from the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its antecedent. P implies Q Not-P ____________ Therefore: Not-Q 4.24 DIVISION Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts have a property solely because the whole has that same property. Division is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. 4.25 EQUIVOCATION Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in one sense in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not determined, and (2) having different meanings equally possible. Equivocation is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is "unovocation," in which a word always carries the same meaning through a given context. 4.26 FALLACY OF INTERROGATION Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the answerer may wish to deny, but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave anything that would count as an answer. Any answer to the question "Why does such-and-such happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen. 4.28 FALSE ANALOGY Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features of two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A false analogy involves comparing two things that are NOT similar. Note that the two things may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is being argued. 4.29 SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION) Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's application. This fallacy is also known as the "hasty generalization." It is a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases to a general rule; generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to statistics: Much of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, the better the representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization is a sweeping generalization. 4.30 IGNORATIO ELENCHI Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition but succeeds only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands for "pure and simple irrelevance." 4.31 ILLICIT PROCESS Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in the conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid categorical syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, then it must be distributed in the premises. There are two types of Illicit Process: Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor Term. 4.32 PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS) Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question. Example: US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no longer started with a prayer. 4.33 NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity of some other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but really is not. 4.34 NON-SEQUITUR Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A conclusion drawn from premises that provide no logical connection to it. 4.35 PETITIO PRINCIPII Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes its conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii has two forms: 1. P is true, because P is true. 2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true. And B is true because P is true. Similar to circular reasoning. 4.36 POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to a conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event precedes another event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of the second event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty Generalization. 4.37 QUATERNIO TERMINORUM Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur four or more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are only three terms: a subject, a predicate, and a middle term. 4.38 RED HERRING Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points being made, and toward a different conclusion. It is not logically valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points. 4.39 REIFICATION Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into a concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is also sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization". 4.40 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle) Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of "argumentum ad ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. 4.41 SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD) Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double standard is employed by the person making the assertion. Special pleading typically happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the argument he/she is making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments. 4.42 STRAW MAN Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for the purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished. It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that one has made. Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys. 4.43 SWEEPING GENERALIZATION Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a Sweeping Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation in which the features of that particular situation render the rule inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty generalization. 4.44 TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE) Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a wrong by applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal with the subject under discussion. 4.45 UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a categorical syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises. 4.46 ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime or ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian." [3.13] 4.47 HECTOR'S LAW Description: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has debunked itself. [Hector Plasmic never put this in words, so I did.] 5: Biblical Contradiction List袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 [From Shelby Sherman, Kelsey Bjarnason, Marilyn Burge, Larry Sites and Simon Ewins] God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26 God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3 Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Terah's lifespan. According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8 God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5 Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13 Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42 The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Solomon's reign. Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6 Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12 Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2 Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6 Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4 David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18 David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1 God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5 Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fa- thers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 JOH 10:30 I [Jesus] and my Father are one. JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 In 2 Kings 10:30, God said that at the Jezreel massacre, Jehu had done "according to all that was in my heart". God was so pleased that he promised Jehu's sons to the forth generation to rule Israel (15:12). Yet Hosea opens his book by judging Jeroboam, Jehu's 3rd generation by saying God will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon hin (Hosea 1:4-5). 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 When God brought the people out of Egypt, he instructed Moses in proper sacrifice. (Ex 34:25-26; NU 6:13-17; 7:84-88; 15:1-14) Lev 7:38 confirms God commanded Moses in this. Yet Jeremiah, speaking for God says, "I gave your ancestors no commands about sacrifices when I brought them out of Egypt" (Je 7:21-23). 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 How could the stars sing (Job 38:4-7) at the creation of the earth when Genesis 1 says stars were created after the earth? 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Taken by David II Sam. 8.4: I Chr. 18.4: 1,700 horsemen 1,000 chariots 20,000 foot soldiers 7,000 horsemen 20,000 foot sldrs 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Ammonite mercenaries II Sam. 10.6: I Chr. 19.7: 20,000 + 1,000 + 32,000 chariots + 12,000 men army of king of Maacah 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Slain by David II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 19.18: 700 charioteers + 7,000 charioteers + 40,000 horsemen + 40,000 horsemen 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Census figures II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 21.5: Israel 800,000 Israel 1,100,000 Judah 500,000 Judah 470,000 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Price of threshing II Sam. 24.24: I Chr. 21.25: floor 50 shekels 600 shekels 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Stalls for chariot I Kings 4.26: II Chr. 9.25: horses 40,000 4,000 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Capacity of the 'sea' I Kings 7.26: II Chr. 4.5: 2,000 baths 3,000 baths 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Is pi equal to 3.0000 as claimed in I Kings 7:23? Two different versions of the words of god in the ten commandments. Who carried Jesus' cross? Who was Jesus paternal grandfather? Is Jesus opposed to divorce or does he allow it? Did Judas hang himself or fall down and "burst asunder"? Acts 9:7 or 22:9? Matthew 27:46,50 or Luke 23:46 or John 19:30? Proverbs 4:7 or Ecclesiastes 1:18 or 1 Corinthians 1:19? Acts 2:30 or Matthew 1:18? Matthew 28:1 or Mark 16:1 or John 20:1? John 10:30 or John 14:28? Genesis 1:25,26 or Genesis 2:18,19? Genesis 7:2 or Genesis 7:8,9? Matthew 5:9 or Matthew 10:34? Matthew 5:39 or Luke 12:51? Matthew 26:52 or Luke 22:36? Luke 6:27 or John 2:15? 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 a) I Kings 6:1 says that 480 years passed from the start of the Exodus to the start of construction on the first temple by Solomon. b) Gal 3:17 says that 430 years passed from the covenant with Abraham to the delivery of the Law to Moses. c) The chapters of Genesis after the flood account give the periods in years that passed between the births of various individuals from Noah to Abraham, giving a period of 390 years from the flood to the covenant with Abraham. Thus, according to the Bible, the Flood took place 1300 years before Solomon began construction of the first temple. Now ... a) The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 BCE by similar analysis in the other direction, placing the flood around 2250 BCE. b) The Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid was built just prior to the 26th century BCE), 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood. c) There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global flood around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice it?) 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 In Luke 22:41 we have Jesus and the disciples in the garden and Jesus moves away from them to pray. We then get some details about the praying and how he sweated blood in his 'agony' from v42 to v44. In v45 Jesus returns to the disciples and finds that they are all sleeping. My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know what Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he sweated blood? In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In Mark, we find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what Jesus said in his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the time. In Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was awake to witness. Furthermore, in reading these three passages one gets the distinct feeling that Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled by the prospect of being sacrificed for the sins of mankind. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Gen. 1:12 --- grass and herb created Gen. 1:21 --- fish and fowl created Gen. 1:25 --- beasts, cattle and creeping things created Gen. 1:27 --- man created Now... Gen. 2:18 --- it is noted that God did not want the man to be alone Gen. 2:19 --- so... beasts and fowl created Note that in Gen. 1:25 beast are created _followed_ by v26 which says that god wanted to create man and in v27 he does. In 2:18 the reason given for creating the beasts etc is that god didn't want man to be alone so he created beasts. How can anyone possibly claim that this is not a blatant contradiction without giving up any appearance that they may be sane? ** To recap... In Gen. 2 the _reason_ that beasts are created is because man should not be alone. This can only mean that man existed prior to the creation of the beasts. In Gen. 1 the _reason_ that man was created was because he was to have dominion over the beasts. This can only mean that the beasts already existed. Note the use of the word 'so' in Gen. 1:27 and the word 'will' in Gen. 2:18. These _have_ to mean that the chronology is as stated. There is no need to believe anything ahead of time. The language used and the statements made make it abundantly clear that the order is different. If anyone denies this then we can only have serious concerns for their mental health. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 If there is any area that one would suppose would be cohesive and accurate it should be in the area of the genealogy of Jesus, David and Adam. However, even an area of such importance is contradictory and replete with obvious, glaring errors. (*) Definite disparity. Note first is as early as Jesus' grandfather. (?) Most likely simply a spelling error. (!) Out of sync similarity. (1) Common to both but out of sync. (2) Common to both but out of sync. (3) Back in sync. (4) End of last common sync. (5) Start in sync to Adam. Matthew Luke I.Chronicles ------------ ------------ ------------ Jesus Jesus Joseph Joseph *Jacob *Heli Matthan ?Matthat Eleazar ?Levi Eliud Melchi Achim Janna Sadoc Joseph Azor Mattathias !Eliakim Amos Abiud Naum Esli Nagge Maath Mattathias Semei Joseph Juda Joanna Rhesa 1Zorobabel 1Zorobabel 2Salathiel 2Salathiel Jechonias Neri Josias Melchi Amon Addi Manasses Cosam Ezekias Elmodam Achaz Er Joatham ?Jose Ozias ?Eliezer Joram ?Jorim Matthat Levi Simeon Juda Josaphat ?Joseph Asa Jonan Abia !Eliakim Roboam Melea Menan Mattatha *Solomon *Nathan 3David 3David 3David (2:15) Jesse Jesse Jesse Obed Obed Obed Booz Booz ?Boaz Salmon Salmon ?Salma Naasson ?Naasson ?Nahshon Aminadab Aminadab ?Amminadab Aram Aram ?Ram Esrom Esrom ?Hezron Phares Phares ?Pharez Judas ?Juda ?Judah *Jacob *Jacob *Israel (2:1) Isaac Isaac Isaac 4Abraham 4Abraham Abraham (1:34) Thara ?Terah (1:26) Nachor ?Nahor Saruch ?Serug Ragau ?Reu Phalec ?Peleg Heber ?Eber Sala 4?Shelah *Cainan Arphaxad 5Arphaxad Sem ?Shem Noe ?Noah Lamech Lamech Mathusala ?Methuselah Enoch ?Henoch Jared ?Jered Maleleel ?Mahalaleel Cainan ?Kenan Enos ?Enosh Seth ?Sheth Adam Adam There is a 15 generation difference between Matthew and Luke. Matthew has Jesus descended from David through Solomon and Luke has it through Nathan. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7 The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15 The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matthew 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Jesus began his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17. Jesus began his ministry while John was free and before being imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Jesus baptised - John 3:22 Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13 Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38 Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32 Jesus carries his own cross - John 19:17,18 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5 Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7 Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Acts 9:7 states that the men with Paul stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone. Acts 22:9 states they did not hear the voice. Acts 26:14 states they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Matthew 27:5 states that Judas went out and hanged himself. Acts 1:16-18 it states that Judas "...purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Matthew 27:46,50 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 John 10:30 I and my Father are one. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. 컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴컴 ** This argument logically flawed, in fact neither statement contains enough information to determine whether men or beasts were created first. In principle, it is only required that God had knowledge of man's creation when he created the beasts, and vise-versa, in order for both statements to be true. More specifically, God may have created the beasts to provide company for the men that he knew he would create in the future, or, he may have created man to have dominion over his future creations. If I were to make the statement: "Spacesuits were created so that men could fly in rockets." Would you be able to deduce whether the spacesuit or the rocket was created first? What if I were to say: "Rockets were created to carry men in spacesuits into space." What conclusion would you reach in this case? Whether or not the whole story contains even a grain of truth is another matter. [Bill Fontes] 6: A short course in comparitive religion袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 7TH DAY ADVENTIST Shit happens on Saturdays. AGNOSTICISM Does shit exist? AGNOSTICISM I don't know whether shit happens. AMARICANISM I'll gladly pay through the nose for this shit. APATHEISM Who gives a damn about this shit. ATHEISM I don't believe this shit. ATHEISM There is no shit! BAHA'I Shi't ha'ppe'ns BONZAI BOZOISM Make shit happen.. OH SHIT!! BORN AGAIN Shit happens but I am saved. BUDDHISM If shit happens, it isn't really shit. BUDDHISM When shit happens, is it really shit? BUSH A thousand points of shit. CALVINISM If you're not saved, tough shit. CASTRO We have to make this shit work somehow. CATHOLICISM If shit happens, I deserve it. CATHOLICISM Let shit happen to someone else. CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST If shit happens, don't worry. It will go away on its own time if you pray for it. CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST Shit isn't real. CONFUCIANISM Confucious say, "shit happens". DEJA VUISM I've been through this shit before. DEMOCRATISM How can we send a man to the moon and still have all this shit. DIANETICS You need to clear yourself of this shit. EASTERN ORTHODOX Rome doesn't know shit. EPISCOPALIAN Fecal matter occurs. EVANGELISM Shit happens. (Pass it on.) EXISTENTIAL I shit, therefore I sit. FUNDAMENTALISM Born-again shit. GERTRUDE STEIN A shit is a shit is a shit. GORBACHEV That shit just didn't work. HARE KRISHNA Shit happens rama rama ding ding. HEDONISM When shit happens, enjoy it! HINDUISM This shit happened before. HOLISTIC There's more shit here than I figured on. ISLAM If shit happens, it is the will of Allah. ISLAM We make shit happen to everybody else. JAINISM Shit happens but don't step in it. JEHOVAH'S WITLESS Do you want to buy a subscription to our shit? JEHOVAH'S WITNESS Knock, knock. "shit Happens." JESUITISM If shit happens and no one hears it, did it really make a sound? JIM JONESISM If shit happens, drink Kool-Aid. JUDAISM Why does this shit always happen to us? LAO-TZU It is utterly pointless to try to explain shit. MINIMALIST Shit MORMONISM Shit happens again & again & again. It's evil to say "shit." Wear your magic underware and this shit won't happen NATIVE AMERICAN We want our shit back! NEW AGE Crystal power counteracts shit. NEW AGE Shit happens and it happens to smell good. PENTACOSTALISM Praise the shit! PROTESTANTISM If shit happens, you deserve it. PROTESTANTISM This shit won't happen if I work harder. RASTAFARIANISM Let's smoke this shit. REPUBLICANISM There's nothing like a good shit. Flush the toilet. RLDS Brigham is full of shit. SATANISM Shit rules! SCIENTOLOGY This shit is expensive. SECULAR HUMANISM Shit evolves. SHINTOISM Everything except Japan is shit. STOICISM So shit happens, Big deal. I can take it. TAOISM Shit happens. TELEVANGELISM This shit won't happen if you donate $99.95 to me. UNITARIAN Shit is all basically the same. UNITARIAN What is this shit? VEGETARIANISM I don't eat that shit! ZEN What is the sound of shit happening? 7: Echo Sampler (Quotes)袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 "In other words, you're full of shit, you *know* you're full of shit, you know that *we* know you're full of shit, and you simply don't have the backbone to come out of the full-of-shit closet." - David Worrell "I thank God there are no free schools nor printing, and I hope we shall not have these [for a] hundred years; for learning has brought disobedience, and heresy, and sects into the world, and printing has divulged them." - William Berkeley, Governor of the Colony of Virginia, 1671 "Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke! Watch out! The sugar-coating you now wear will probably wear off before long. It doesn't take very long, here. We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor Thews "We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it." - Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd "Some parents, primarily fundamentalist Christians, would like the schools to teach their particular moral values. Those values are not necessarily shared by everyone." - D Mc Intire (talk.origins / Usenet) "Wrong! I'm the fucking antichrist. Bow down slave!" - Ryan Shaw "You must suffer from some unknown mental condition, Andy. Throughout your posts you seem to equate liberalism with people who you consider "evolutionists[sic]." Liberalism, and conservatism for that matter are both political theories and have very little to do with whether or not one is considered an "evolutionist[sic]" by you. Wait, on the other hand most dumbass rednecks seem to be conservative. Shit, I take that back. Even a redneck isn't that stupid." -RS "I feel sorry for you, 'cause when the END comes, you are going to be one of those crying for the rocks and mountains to fall on you to hide you from God's glory. You will finally fall on your face and worship the One that created ALL, and then you will not have a chance. A carpenter was not elected as God, not by anyone of this world. You will know, one day that God wanted you to follow Him and THEN it will be too late. I have pity for you, for as you are speaking now, you are lost. You can believe whatever you want to, God gave you that choice, and you choose to follow the devil. May God have mercy on your soul." - Greg Waggy "If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be afraid to experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac "YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, THEY CHOOSE TO BE GAY. AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS THEM!" - JA "The Church is very tolerant, as is proven by God not sending a lightening bolt to fry those who blaspheme in the manner which the ULC does - particularly by taking something which God and millions of men hold sacred, and then attempting to make a joke of it, belittling it, and smearing it with every type of ridicule you can think of." - Fr. Lee Mc Colloster "It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day soon every knee will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" - Hampie Mcdonald "A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum community infected the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook "Key words: "we want". Instead of making demands, why not try working to those ends? Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig "Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell." - ML "Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both eyes open, I just consider the source." - ML "I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. The mere fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other than label you with the type of superstition with which you feel most comfortable." - ML "Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come across as such a blightered moron. Perhaps." - ML "Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in that paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and school administrators are there to protect the populace from the Neofascist, hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of Fundamentalist liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of narrowly dogmatic, and hallucinatory, morality as science. Against that we must be ever vigilant. We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad in their tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what they can never attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or swindle." - ML "My name is Marty, and I too, like our illustrious author of the missive immediately above, am an unrepentant fundy basher. Just as some people feel compelled to rubberneck terrible traffic accidents, purchase police scanners to vicariously hear of other's misfortunes or stomp some clod's foot protruding into the aisle in a particularly crowded airline flight; I am possessed by the unrelenting desire, nay, compulsion, to help certain people who are consumed by the passion to make idiots of themselves, either personally or in international electronic fora. When some "person" proudly proclaims that "man evolved from apes"; I see this as nothing more than a plaintive cry for self-immolation. When they claim that there's "boats in dem dere hills"; again, the pitiful cry of a person desperate to be martyred, but without the genetic or intellectual horsepower to carry it out themselves. When they spew plaintive Bible verses to document everything from their own particularly skewed, and oftimes hallucinatory, view of morality to make an attempt at justification of atrocities, injustices and just plain antisociality; they are merely whining, in their own bizarre and stridulatory manner, for someone to come along and humiliate them with a blizzard of fact, logic and reason. And yet some would go so far to condemn my actions. I see it as preforming a service to these benighted individuals; a sort of an electronic version of Dr. Kevorkian." - ML "Welcome to Holysmoke. That is probably the last nice thing I will ever say to you. Such is life." - George Rudzinski "Control, Are you stupid? Do you see Jesus dumbass?" - GR "And you are still short one live Jesus dumbass. What part of that don't you understand?" - GR "I interact just fine with fellow human beings. What has yet to be established is that you are human." - GR "I have no problems with my self esteem. I don't need any imaginary friends to get me through life." - GR "Fundies are dazed and confused. Like a duck hit on the head." - GR "And nobody considers you to be stupid. You have shown that you are. No need to get pissed at us because you decide to demonstrate that you are stupid." - GR "So don't practice sex. The gene pool won't miss your participation." - GR "So me blowing your head off is okay? I'm beginning to see that such a wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR "Mark 16: 15-19. If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR "Well God don't talk to me. And until you cough up the chemical formula for the pills sitting on my monitor, God don't talk to you." - GR "Hardly. My heathen premise is that screwing my wife on a Sunday morning has top priority over wasting time listening to some snake-oil salesmen in what ever church you wish to pick." - GR "I so love to see Christians disagree. Why don't we lock the two of you in a room with a loaded gun and the Bible? And the one that walks out alive gets to be the "True" christian." - GR "When you are on fire, no matter how many times you scream you are not on fire, it doesn't put the flames out." - GR "I personally believe religion is a mind killer and the most evil thing that one man has ever foisted on another." - GR "Many religious people think I'm the anti-Christ. I guess that would qualify as an affiliation." - GR "I am compelled to reply to this discussion. As a Christian, I feel that people who are Gay or Lesbian are children of God, and that they like us are loved by God. There is no mention to my knowledlge in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that Homosexuality is accursed by God whatsoever. Therefore, there is no Moral position based on the Bible in Christianity which condemms it. True, there is no position either which blesses it as well. Homosexuality exit, it is neither good or bad, as these are our own values being imposed on it, and as such reflect our own fears or ignorance. For instance, in the last 30 years Blacks, and Women have achieved a level of equality unheard of centuries before, and what is more true is that taking away their advances is blasphemous, and unconiousable. Gay people are no different than you or I, they have families that care for them, they work and contribute to our society greatly. To deny them equal rights under the law, and morally, would be the same as stepping back into time when tyrants ran the world and people different from them were put to the sword. Any attack on Gay people is just plain homophobia, and disguising it as morally wrong because the Rev. Jerry Falwell(for example) condems it, is just plain stupidity. Gay people want acceptance and respect as citizens, brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers, friends, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I am glad that we live in a age when people are shaking off old irrational fears and bigotry, even though we have a long way to go before we can build a society, and world based on love and respect. I just hope I will see it in my lifetime." - John Oliver "I advocate the murder of no one. However, I _do_ advocate referring to an abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led monster, masquerading as a doctor of medicine. Reason: He is one." - "Lon S. Mabon" "Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born again) they become a new person in Christ. New means you start from the beginning. As in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp. "Argument from popularity. There was a time when a hundred percent of the world's population thought the world was flat (if they thought about it at all). Did the make the world flat? Hardly! It make a hundred percent of the people stupid, and nothing more." - Marilyn Burge "Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't shine. It is a farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, if only you were adult enough to know it." - MB "This brings some strange mental images to mind. First we have Christ blowing a column of fire out of his ass like a Saturn V. And then we have the Virgin Mary strapped onto the side of a booster like the Space Shuttle." - J.J. Hitt "But this echo is where we deal with stupid shit. The All Time Ultimate In Stupid Shit. Like the motion that our conduct should be regulated by the moral code of some 4000 year old nomadic Desert Tramps whose favorite pasttimes were incest and killing each other with rocks. [...] Or the notion that there is some Invisible Guy who knows everything and controls the universe... who just happens to be asleep at the switch right now. [...] Or the incedibly stupid notion that the Invisible Guy had a bastard son who went around teaching people to love one another by calling everybody he met names like "snake" and "dog". (It's really no wonder they nailed the guy to a board.) [...] Or the notion that the Invisible Guy's Bastard Son rose from the dead and is going to come back "REAL SOON NOW", even though he's almost 2000 years overdue. [...] Or... and here's the Biggest Lie of the bunch; if you live by the rules of Desert Tramps, believe in the Invisible Guy and do the things his Bastard said, then when you die you get to go live in the Big Rock Candy Mountain for ever and ever. When it comes to STUPID SHIT, the above just can't be beat." - JJH "I been to Alabama. It's every bit as backwards as it's reputation. It's sort of like you had taken the open-mindedness of Utah and crossed it with the intelligence of Louisianna." - JJH "A flawed argument at best: an abusive parent who is only beating their children can point at the parent who is sexualy abusing their children and say that there is nothing wrong with their own actions because someone else is doing worse. The sexually abusive parent can point to the parent who kills their children. The parent who kills their children in turn can point to someone who has killed more children than they have. If you only compare yourself to the worst examples you can find, of course you will always come out smelling like a rose. Please try to say something a little less stupid in your next reply." - JJH "The fundies that come through here start out by trying to display an attitude of thoughtful discussion. When they find that their mythologies are systematically disassembled and found to _be_ myths, coupled with the friction specifically designed to remove their sugar coating, the actual Christian under said sugar coating is exposed. And you can guess what's under it. I couldn't begin to enumerate those who specifically stated that they wished they could be around to watch the hurtful, educated HolySmoke participants `burn in 'hell.'" - Fredric Rice " Calm down, fundy. Climb down from that tree and settle the hairs on your back side. I won't hurt you. Look. I put the stick down. See? All safe." - FR "'I am saved.' From what? Having to think for yourself?" - FR "Are you just naked, or are you naked for Jesus?" -FR "It's rather like having Freedie Kruger babysit children. Or asking Pee Wee Herman to teach human sexuality. Or asking Jim Bakker to be treasurer of the United States. Or asking Jim Jones to look over the refreshments." - FR "To believe in something without reason, that is to say, without reasonable grounds, is superstition, whether it is a belief that a black cat crossing your path will bring you bad luck, or God may pass judgement over your soul and send you to Hell for your evils." -Michael Gothreau "FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG! THE GOD OF ABRAHAM DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING. SO GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ATHEIST ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS, AND WAKE UP. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN. THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN. AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE HEADED! OH I SEE. ALABAMA? YOU BETTER WATCH OUT. EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL! THE TERMINAL BBS? OH, I UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE TERMANILLY RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF INCEST! HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER BOY." - Christopher Calabrese [Christian family values] "Debunking religions based upon hot air... is why this echo exists. Exposing hot air, although it cannot be seen by the naked eye, is a simple matter of having a theist speak into a balloon. When you pop the balloon, there is no more substance than what was there before. (Other than perhaps some saliva. Some theists froth more than others.)" - Styx Allum "Omnipresence precludes any "separation from the body of Christ". One cannot escape omnipresence. Therefor, your god would also have to exist within Satan." - SA "My clue, is Christ is coming, soon. Where are you going to be, when he comes to take the believers, in Heaven or hell." - Marguerite Kendall "If I was a satanist, humanist, or an atheist, it would be no problem. But because I stand for Christ, I get jumped on, name called, etc. There have been posts, on satanism, and humanism. But nothing happens, to the person who posts those messages. That person gets praise heaped upon him. But when I posted something on christianisty, adverse reaction happen." - MK "Perhaps you would send some [newspaper articles] my way...yeah...I know it's like the rest of your life...one big circus of lies." - Ron Stringfellow "One thing at a time. Answer the question, godling." - RS "Peter, I know what pi r2 is and have since the beginning. . . and I am sure that god took that into account." - RS "Faith in yourself will not help when the problem is beyond your control." - Steve Bedard "This ain't the harmony echo, dipshit." - Robert Curry "If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless." - RC "Funny how the gods tend to share the Political views of those who speak for them." - RC "Creation 'Science' is to science what Rap 'Music' is to music: a lot of noise and utterly incoherent." - David Rice "It is like arguing with a lump of shit. The longer one argues with shit, the sillier one appears, and the shit ain't listening." - DR "In response to entreaties from around the world, the leadership of Iran has announced that it will deal with Salman Rushdie in a more Christian fashion. But they have to find a place for the stake where it won't set an oil well on fire." - DR (It's a JOKE, bozo) "Any god who was elected a god by majority vote, like Jesus, must have a severe identity crisis." - DR "Speed kills. Wrapping your automobile around a concrete bridge pylon probably voids the warrantee." - DR "I think Ms. [Linda "UN at Waco"] Thompson has some valid points. Honestly." - DR "You're one complete pile of shit, and a bigoted one, too. Even your god damnable bible says "created man in his own image". And you have the audacity to say that an innocent child does not have the right to be saved by your god damned god?" - Dan Ceppa "Your English teachers only use a 23-letter alphabet? I've heard of cutbacks in education, but that's rediculous!" - DC "I predict that you will take a breath of fresh air and actually take another. Hey!!! Why the fuck are you turning blue on me???? Well, one less fundy to woryy about......" - DC "Mankind didn't progress as far as it has by saying, "God said that men can't fly" but by breaking those laws and flying. What is going on around us now is an attempt to do just the same thing that the Romans used xianity for: To keep people ignorant, ignorant as to who they really are and are far they can go." - DC "You're incapable of any rational response, so why start now?" - DC "Please don't apologize. It makes me want to taunt you a second time." - Shelby Sherman "We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in this forum - Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS "By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is long dead and rotted in the grave. I've profaned your Savior, now what do you intend to do about it?" - SS "Damn, I asked for evidence and all I got was this lousy Josh McDowell T-shirt." - SS "Tell me, why does God need to prove himself? He is based on belief. You are to believe, not to question! God performs miracles every day." - Steve Lew "Let's face it, matters of spirituality have to do with the spirit, not the intellect." - Carl Schulz "This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled with those who will one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, whether they like it or not! And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching you say it." - Martin Riley "The fact that a Jewish hasid lived in the 1st century CE in the country of either Galilee or Judaea, was very charismatic, a little brilliant and a little looney is not in question." - Simon Ewins "If God is "infinite and eternal and the Creator of all" then God must be the creator of evil. Since God created evil, the concept of evil must have, at least, passed through his mind and, further, since "whatever is good is good because it is consistent with his mind" the reverse must also be true. That is, "whatever is evil is evil because it is consistent with his mind". This makes God directly responsible for all of the evil that exists since it was "created from his mind". This requires that evil itself must be "consistent with his mind". So, is the mind of god predominantly good or evil? The amount of evil in the world (according to Christian theology) far outweighs the amount of good. This would indicate that God created more evil than he did good. This would indicate that the "mind" of God is predominantly evil. Why would one wish to worship a God who's "mind" is mostly evil? More interesting, however, is your anthropomorphizing of god. You assign God a "mind". How do you know that God has a "mind"?" - SE "Is this the depth of your naivete, or do we have more to look forward to?" - SE "Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong... Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, Matthew 10:23... all claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. Gee, maybe he's dead." - SE "Lies are hard to keep straight in an era without sophisticated communications, it would seem." - SE "Are you looking to win the award for most stupid question? Setting aside for a moment that rocks are hard what would be the result of one dropping on your head? You can't 'set aside' an essential element of _anything_ and expect to find an answer that bears any relationship to reality." - SE "To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after Paul's letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about Jesus, is to accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler. To accept as truth what Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of Acts says about Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as supported by what Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE "Christianity has nothing to be proud of. Any good that it may have done has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and religious hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE "Paul only quotes Jesus twice. Why would that be if he is basing his entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of Jesus?" - SE "God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson "Needless to say, the LDC's birth-rates are just rediculous... I'm for compulsary sterilization, muh-self." - Jeff Freeman "I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones "What you call a refusal to answer was a refusal to respond" - JJ "When we believe that our individual will is the superior force in the cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks. Jesus's struggle in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served beyond our own self-interests. . ." - JJ "BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until I am proven wrong, I am right." - Zach Webb "My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on me." - Steve Winter "Aids cures queers." - SW "I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone "Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals? Cockroaches are male and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to your congregation." - Don Martin "Sorry to leave you out, but I do not number asshole dipshits among my friends. Now, since you have made this assertion about this particular loon, please be so good as to show that his handle is indeed a "warrior name", that it was given to this jerk by somebody else, and the ways in which we may be sure that he did not apply the name to himself, as part of his masturbatory fantasies. I shall probably live; whether shall I learn anything from your idiot speculations about third parties remains dependent upon your ability to provide some evidence for your assertion." - DM "I have here a promissory note signed by you pledging to pay me $493,278 by November 30, 1995, or to incur further indebtedness to me at the rate of 10%, compounded daily and payable upon demand. And here it is, December 9, and I haven't seen a farthing. Prove to me that this promissory note does not exist or pay me my money by certified check. Now. Either that, or learn about the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. [...] Actually, I would rather prefer that you learned nothing about the fallacy (and my confidence is buoyed considerably by your repeated demonstrations that you take a back seat to no one in the matter of learning nothing) and just sent me the money." - DM "You know, I work very hard at my insults, striving for the greatest amount of put-down in the fewest words, hopefully with some memorable imagery. One of my favorites, for instance, was to a fundy picketing a film: "When I want something like your opinion, I'll give my dog an enema." It is succinct, I think, and properly disgusting, while presenting a process that ends in the satirist's all-time favorite material, shit." - DM "Have you any notion how very boring your constant mantra of "C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton" gets to be after a while? Nobody denies that there have been and continue to be brilliant people who believe in religions. Their impact, however, on our daily lives is a great deal less than the folks with 12-guage shotguns who may appear at any moment to "justly punish" a baby killer (and anyone standing in the vicinity) for Christ, the Jim Bakkers who suck the money from the poor, the Pat Robertsons who seek to change the laws and other believing riff-raff who otherwise share precious little with the likes of C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton, et al." - DM "And they're the ones who keep saying to us "why are you so ANGRY?" At least I am not so angry that I have to deny rights to other people out of hand." - DM "Fundies can only be secure in their faith when everybody agrees with their idiotic notions; therefore they feel impelled to convert whom they can and shoot the rest in the back." - DM "It isn't all that bad: they are only required to love their neighbor "as themselves". Given the degree of self-loathing we see demonstrated by christians around here (if it were not for the existence of god, I would be committing murder, arson and rape on a daily basis), they probably already love their neighbors as they do themselves without working up a sweat. That love, however, may leave something to be desired." - DM "Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian "trying to make a difference"? Who ignores the various "Family" groups in Colorado and Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human race? They are certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the Christians in Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do not return them? Who can deny that they are "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly Christians, who seek to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in the U.S. Senate where he can work his magic on all of us? Are they not "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in California, who work at getting elected to school boards by concealing their Christian agenda by evasion, silence or outright lying, so that they can impose that agenda on the young from a position of power. They, too, are "trying to make a difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the Christians "trying to make a difference," but we dare not turn our backs on the vile bastards." - DM "Maggie's echo bombs of religious tracts probably violates the copyright of some fundy without giving such credit, but piss on him--it's only a fundy, after all." - DM "It has long been my impression that most of you buzzards would not bother to be christians if you did not suppose that heaven was composed of bleacher seats facing hell." - DM "But in India, something else is going on. Females are not valued. Only males are. Wanna bet that when those boys end up competing for the only unmarried girl in town that HER value won't soar? And theirs, at least so far as the gene pool is concerned, will drop. Such gender-specific abortion is an excellent way to reduce the overall population, but it doesn't really begin to operate until the next generation." - DM "I do not expect, of course, that my ridicule will make fundies think--they appear to be pretty well proof against that horror--but it may have that effect on the real audience around here, the silent lurkers who have not yet given their minds over to the Swaggarts, Robertsons and Falwells." - DM "Certainly, and than am I: however, he specified "fundemental Christian", which DOES rather drain the pool of available intellect." -DM "Well for all of you who criticize Mr. Robertson, I can say this. Judge yourself before judging others. You might make fun of us fundies now, but we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what worries you the most financially. We Christians are sick and tired of being accused of wrongdoing and ridiculed. Lets face it, there are more of us than you. And we intend to take back the Government that Christians founded. And cut off your grants that supply some of you with the money to wage war on us. Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare you and thats good cause We are going to put you and the evolutionist garbage you try to push on us on the run." - Joe Savelli [And you didn't believe him -CH] "Okay. I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested for praying in the Florida restaurant. But only because you and others are hung up on it. This should clear the way for what I really want to prove. That is the Historicity of Jesus. So, Robert, you have my retraction for what it's worth. (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS "Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and screaming to the occupants "we want your children, we want your children". It just proves my point that homosexuality is evil. Not to mention that it spreads disease...." - JS "Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and still growing. We are going to invade all political and educational institutions, take them back from the liberal/socialist invaders." -JS "Libralism and humanism IS evil. Both are destined to fail" -JS "I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil. Beware! The Jew is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / Gerald Norris / Jack Roberts / Frank Waring "If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per Jewish tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)? I wonder- and I hope he lands feet first on ALL televangelists. (Preying on fear sickens me!!!)" - Rachael Roth "Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it in gasoline, then shove it up your ass and light it. Have a nice day, motherfucker." - C. J. Henshaw "What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun past time for those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' assholes." - Coridon Henshaw "Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" - Liz Saunders "We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already told us what happened. Why do we need further proof?" - Derek Williams "What scares the shit out of me is that here in southern Tennessee (and probably many other areas) the psychological clinics are LINKING religious beliefs and psychological well-being. That's kind of like giving someone AIDS to cure sexual dysfunction." - Tim Bennett "EH> [...] Btw, change your initials. they make you look canadian." - Martin Goldberg "Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead Elvis. Jesus, the smell is atrocious. Did something die up there?" - MG "The Theory of Gravity does not address these either. Am I to believe that my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG "i read this. It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, and a host of other devices that might fool a very stupid person. It is not, however, evidence." - MG "See you in Hell.... (I won't be there, but I'll be able to see YOU there.)" - Doug Brewer "Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single women who obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens? 1) A tremendous amount of tax money is freed up. 2) Men fill the now vacant positions, thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 3) Children have one parent home all the time; thus they are raised by their parents instead of daycare. I think the advantages of this are obvious. In contrast, look at what we have instead...." - DB "You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism. You do not have to worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanists believe that everyone is their own God. You need only worship yourself, and you are practicing Satanism." -DB "First of all, innocence is subjective. Who is truly innocent? Just a question... Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in the Bible) died for a reason. Third, Christians view death as a beginning, not an end. So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's judgement) wouldn't pose that big a problem for me. There isn't that much worth hanging around here for, anyway." -DB "Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens is not all irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our most earnest efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson "Perhaps if you actually bothered to read literature rather than burn it, you would have seen them." - PS "I hear the president is naming you Secretary of the Inferior." - PS "Go try Stevie Winter's Wholly Bible echo. I'm sure you'd get a kick out of it." - PS "Christian [Miller], you are the LAST person who needs to be giving me advice on how I should go about living with myself. You are a disgrace to your god, your religion, your species, your family, and yourself. I find you to be a repugnant and worthless human being--and I write all of this with not a single trace of anger." - PS "So, you dislike anyone with differing political beliefs? Not surprising; you did admit that you were conservative, after all." - PS "Dear God: you're making a horrible mess of things. Please abdicate and allow the election of a worthy successor." - PS "There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has been bricked over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS "Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures in your religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage it. Such is a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." - PS "If you take two lions and two sheep aboard the ark, it's a cinch bet that the lions will probably eat the sheep or some other herbivore upon release." - PS "You've basically said to the world "I don't understand why some things happen, so God must have done it!" That's silly. If you don't know why something happened, try to find out. If you can't, leave it at that and go on with your life." -PS "I think you're full of shit. I wasn't in it for gain. I was in it because I believed. I was in it because I had faith. And when my faith was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody answered my prayers, nothing. Your God, if he exists, is the most callous deity to ever be worshipped, bar none. And his followers exemplify this beautifully." - PS "We've explained it to you at least three times, in clear English. You claimed a degree in English; I suggest that you return to the institution that granted it and demand a refund, because it's for damned sure that you didn't learn anything there." - PS "How about people who just don't care? Bipolar thinking is ridiculous when applied in this fashion to humanity, since life is not always a clear-cut case of "us" against "them." Such thinking breeds paranoia, distrust, animosity, and all sorts of unharmonious things. What would your god think of that?" - PS "`In God we trust' - David Koresh" - Sunjester [OBSOLETE] "Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green "I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions cause you so much grief." - SG "Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest." - Jimmy Swaggart "Describe, if you will, what kind of phony God you would come up with if you were to create a phony God and start your own religion. Ask yourself what kind of traits you'd *have* to give it. Visible or invisible? etc. Then, compare the result to the popular Christian God." - Mike Prather "The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their brains fall out. Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the opening, at which time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse has run off, and never let anything else in or out. Then they come to Holysmoke and start posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot waves and dead presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying sunlight and quoting winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic" "He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants it to say, carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as "parables" and then reinterpreting them, too. Finally, ignore any more logical explanations and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add flood water and bake in hell to taste." - HP "It's laughable, really. The fundies claim "gods exist!" When you ask them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they eventually get around to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist." When you ask them for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just know it." And when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually get "you can _sense_ that gods exist."" - HP "I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that xtianity is true? Would you mind sharing it with us? Or are you just full of shit as usual?" - HP "Time: Here and now. Surviving members of David Koresh's Branch Davidians report seeing David the Koresh, Lamb of God, alive and preaching. They're widely regarded as nuts. The Enquirer and similar yellow tabloids pick up the tale and begin printing stories about people seeing the Koresh hither and yon performing miracles. The stories are widely regarded as garbage -- except for a few ignorant souls who also believe Elvis and JFK are still running around. A few years pass, the stories of Koresh sightings still crop up from time to time. Henry Kissinger has died, and John Prewett committed suicide rather than admit he was a false prophet. The Branch Davidians stick to their story, saying that the Koresh has ascended to heaven to be with God. They pick up followers. The church grows slowly but steadily. People still think they're nuts, but a few eyebrows are being raised. The fundamentalist xtian televangelists begin screaming about false prophets and followers of the devil when they mention the Koreshians. A few more years pass. Most of the Branch Davidians have died of old age. Their followers, still growing, set down the tales they've been told about the Koresh's sacrificial death to atone for the sins of mankind and subsequent resurrection and ascension to heaven and begin calling themselves Koreshians. A prominent televangelist who'd been preaching against the Koreshians is in an automobile accident; when he recovers, he claims to have seen the Koresh and been converted (saved). He tours the country preaching at Koreshian churches, howls his message over the airwaves. Membership in the Church of Koresh jumps sharply as many people leave the fundamentalist churches to become Koreshians. A few more years pass. The televangelist, now an old man, is assassinated. Membership again jumps sharply, spurred by his martyrdom. The stories set down years before are assembled and appended to the King James bible (oddly, written using "thee" and "thou"s). The stories contain contradictions and obvious fallacies, but they're accepted as dogma by the Koreshians, who interpret over them and/or call them "proof of the truth of the writings." Approximately two thousand years pass -- it's 1995 AK (After Koresh). The Koreshian religion is held, at least superficially, by 1/3rd of the world's 10 billion population (there'd be a lot more people, but the Koreshians exterminated a lot of heretics and unbelievers over a thousand years before during the Second Dark Age). Mikey Hardy's descendant says, in a room full of atheists, "And we have evidence that David Koresh rose from the dead." Most everyone present considers him a nut, and farts in his general direction. Mikey's descendant screams 'IS NOT!'" - HP "Moreover, according to the fundies here, we're guilty until "saved." So, to extend Kenny's "breaking the law" analogy, it'd need to be a law against breathing, or some other activity that humans can't help doing. In fact, I offer this analogy which seems much to the point: A king declared that anyone breathing air not bought from the king's air bottling plant would be thrown into the dungeon and tortured forever. The king offered simple terms -- all you had to do to pay for your bottles of air was fall to your knees, grovel a bit, and thank the king for giving you air (the king had previously allowed the president of the air bottling plant to rape and kill his daughter the princess to pay the price for everyone's air, but actually she wore a full-body condom and faked her death so she suffered very little if at all). Now, an atheist might say that the king was full of shit and was damning his people by the thousands for no reason at all, but a theist might say that the people were damning themselves by refusing to partake in the king's almost-freely-given gift of a bottle of air." - HP "We don't hate you, little fundy. We feel sorry for you." -HP "Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP "Now go shoot yourself. For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. Don't forget to repent first." -HP "What an assinine, baseless assertion. Just because Mikey has no evidence, you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." -HP "Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP "Fundy motto: no sense makes sense." -HP "Yep. I agree. All bibles should be put under rocks. Big rocks. In the ocean. On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy "Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." - Jeff Pruett "Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff? The entire story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit. It has no more validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras." - John Musslewhite "So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta our hair?" - David Worrell "What is with the fundy fascination with that [Forest Gump] movie? Do they identify with the main character?" - DW "*Anybody* [Bosnian Serbs] that makes a habit of shelling civilian population centers at random is *not* interested in peace. The only way to make them stop is to wipe them from the face of the Earth." - DW "At the very least, we should sell (or "loan") the Bosnians [Muslims/Croats] good counter-battery radar and some MLRSes. Everytime the Serbs fired anything bigger than a rocket-launched grenade, their position would be enveloped by thousands of bomblets. After a while, they'd loose their fascination with artillery." - DW "I'm beginning to think Mormon churches have brain vacuums install in the pews. The congregation comes in, sits down, and tubes are inserted up their asses. Any unnecessary brain matter is then sucked out while they listen rapturously to the sermon." - DW "So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to prevent `experimentation'? You disgust me. Maybe we should beat the hell out of Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with Christianity?" - DW "I'm prejudiced against bigots, fascists, tyrants, and idiots. It just so happens that many Christians fall into one or more of these categories." - DW "I am all too willing to believe that you're just as stupid as you come across on this echo." - DW "Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to you?" - DW "Atheism is MORALLY BANKRUPT because, as Sartre and Nietzsche have demonstrated, without God as the universal reference point to distinguish good from evil, there are no moral absolutes. Man becomes the measure of all things, including his own ethics and morality." - Roger Griffith "I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to legislate agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - Robert Rice "God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one chance against My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life Non-Christians!!" - Jason Bridges "What I'm doing is typing truth. It is simple to ridicule and ask for evidence of something someone does not believe, I could take the same tact. You cannot prove any theory, that's why they are known as theories. What you offer is not debate. Look the word up in the dictionary. I am here to say JESUS SAVES." - David Lewellyn "I do not hate anyone. I recognize homosexuality for what it is. It is an illness and depravity. At one time this was recognized as truth but as homosexuals were thrust into the public eye by the AIDS epidemic and the popular figures who came out of the closet, and the liberal climate created by the press, homosexuality was labeled an "alternative life style". It is "popularly believed" that a flight attendant from Canada introduced AIDS into the U.S. According to researchers he had sex with several dozen men. Other cases of AIDS did not show up until later among the non homosexual populace." -DL "No gay person could ever reproduce unless he were straight in some way." - Ralph "The sky is blue!" Jansen "Why can evolution be FACT when there is absolutely NOTHING backing it up? ... (Because this is science and in science there is no such thing as a fact.)" - RJ "If there is, then by definition evolution is most highly improbable since the each species is *supposed* to die off after it evolves." -RJ "As for 6000 years, there is quite a bit of evidence that supports that idea. So, maybe he really isn't that stupid. Maybe he knows something you don't." -RJ "Some group has said that they actually discovered the ark, and that NASA has gotten behind them on this 100%... Don't you dare quote me on that..." -RJ "I made a report to the class on Creation Vs. Evolution . . . You know who won . . . Creation . . . evlution is too complicated!!!" - Russ Offord [elipses in original] "The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and Earth's magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have been many, many times stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks "You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to live with it (your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, hellbound schnook)" - John Prewett "May Jesus continue to let you live. Long enough to get your head out of your ass." -JP "This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ. There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - JP "I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will publicly reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the "beast" of the Revelation." - JP "Some HolySmokers are putting God on trial. Therefore God exist." - JP "`god' _does_ exist. Because the rules of physics always stay the same." - Matt Unterberg "I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of fundamentalists" - Unknown "(sorry about that - this is my blatant attempt to get a quote in the HOLYSMOKE.FAQ) " - Mike Perry "Actually, it is, Kelsey. Theistic evolution is not the same as atheistic-materialistic evolution. Yet, for some reason, you choose to use theistic evolution as a rebuttal to my statement that "natural atheistic-materialistic macro-evolution is dependant on life starting via a naturalistic-atheistic-materialistic mechanism for biochemical evolution." I'll explain the difference to you. Atheistic-materialistic evolution is characterized by the belief that there is no Creator G-d, that all that we observe in the universe is the result of the laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus random and/or chance encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion years. In order for Atheistic-materialistic evolution to be true, each stage of the evolution of the universe (From the origin of the Big Bang, to the origin of particles, to the origin of stars and planets, to the origin of life from non-life, to the origin of the species) must have developed via the laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus opportune random encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion years. If any any one of these stages we can demonstrate that just one of these steps could not have occurred in this manner, then we have disproved Atheistic-materialistic evolution. The Atheist world view falls apart." - Arthur Biele "Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's my aura of wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline. Really it is." - Aaron Boyden "No. However, there is life before death. It probably deserves more of your attention than you've been giving it." -AB "And you say I'm in a "death cult"?? "Mass starvation"?? Point "*.666"? You can't use "666", your an atheist, you don't believe in those things, remember?? Remember, the Bible isn't true, therefore the Anti-christ and his number 666 is a myth and doesn't exist? For someone who doesn't believe the Bible, you sure model yourself and your symbols after what's in it, even if it's the "bad guys". Of course the "bad guys" don't exist if the Bible isn't true." - Phillip Windell "You see, without God, a person can become good, or noteworthy, or famous, or do good things such as heal the sick, teach the ignorant, protect the young, and all for the simplest reasons or no reason at all other than the personal happiness derived from such actions. However, if there _is_ a God, then there is no reason to become a doctor, as God either wants that person sick or God would cure him. There is no reason to teach the ignorant, as with a snap of the fingers, God could impart any degree of knowledge or wisdom to that person and since that hasn't happened, God must want that person ignorant. If God does exist, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do anything for anyone. Anything you could do to help someone is meaningless as God could help them so much better if He wanted them to be helped. Anything you could do to better yourself becomes pointless as God could have done it for you if He wanted you to be a better person. Indeed, if God did exist, one could only do one of two things: either totally ignore God and any of His actions, or become a totally mindless slave to God's word. Either way, the result is the same: complete meaninglessness to anything and everything one does." - Kelsey Bjarnason "Show me exactly which Israelis were brought to Israel by God, as opposed to the local airlines. Next." - KB "You seem to be very hot on what the Bible says; I find it hard to believe that anyone who cannot write a simple sentence correctly is actually capable of ascertaining the deeper meanings of anything more complex than a matchbook cover." - KB "One might look at how the Christians fare in here. Do you have any idea how often we have one come in and the first thing they do is start whining about the language in here? How would you like it if someone went to your house and told you how to speak there? Of course, the next step for the average Christian here is to start posting all the "great truths" which "prove God"; again, without having bothered to read enough mail to realize that _every_ argument they propose has been done to death already. No, they insist upon believing that in all of human history, they and they alone have the final proof of God. As often as not, the next stage is when they start defining terms to suit themseleves. "Atheism" means "anti-God". "Evolution" involves the Big Bang. And of course, they almost invariably end up resorting to such silliness as telling us that we "hate God" because we fear "it might be true" or that "deep in our hearts we know God is real". The point here is this: the Christians are treated with the respect they earn. For most, this means treating them like a spoiled and slightly retarded six-year-old. For the odd few, it means calm and rational discussion. It is _entirely_ up to the Christian how he is treated in HolySmoke." - KB "You go out of your way to insist that atheism is a religion, which can be for no purpose but to inflict your personal mindset on those who are not so afflicted." - KB "If you believe it, you don't know it. If you know it, you don't need to believe it. Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or the other, why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB "As another opined, isn't it odd that miracles no longer happen now that we have the technology to record them?" - KB "Okay, fine. But how much of it is "God's truth", and how much is mere fairy tale or absolute bulltwaddle? Was there really a global flood? No? Then is the Bible is lying to us, or is God? Oh, there was a global flood? Then the lack of supporting evidence means that God is lying to us, by intentionally destroying or hiding that evidence, right? Hello?" - KB "They are Christians of Borg, they have been assimilated. They will speak no opinions of their own, only those approved by the Christian Borg Collective. To think for oneself is to risk eternal punishment." - Thomas Mccullock "No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are plenty (too many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping this planet (over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of the world's population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any more people breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber "Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was praying that his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK flew out of the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and arrested him. MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and tried to prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen mentioned in Luke 16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased the Culinary History of Aviation. He goes on trial December 1." - Jason Rosendale "First off I am not religious, I am a Christian. Second I did not give up on it, I refused to take part in a mock trail of God." - Kenneth Mcabee "What your missing David, is the most bible believing Christains do not question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of sin? What does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." - KM "You still haven'g gotten have you? Someone who believes in the Bible also believes that you do not need evidence, but rather faith." - KM "First if the Christians were doing thier job right noone would die never hearing the "Good News". If they did not hearing then by my bible I have to say that they are condemned. And that we the Christians did not do as we were commanded." - KM "you a answer on your question simply due to the fact that I am not God, and do not have the capability to punish my kids for eternity. I cannot give you an answer, I do not know what I would do if I could punish them for eternity." - KM "Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not mean that I am here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM "Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement that God is an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the choice to make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and go to hell. With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most hateful thing ever created, I still would not want to go to hell, and I would still believe in him." - KM "I will not play D&D anymore because of the dieties and demigods. I do however keep the game around because from time to time I need information out of them to prove a point. I will play doom and other games like that because to me I'm just killing bytes on the computer, and that is really not killing. Nor does it make me want to kill, I see it as it was made, a contest to be one or lost. Besides, what could be bad about blowing away demons?" - KM "God will be coming soon. He will tryumph over any gods that other people have made. Like the god of money...etc. In the end you will be judged by him. He will make you accountable for every thing you did." - Alex Sousa "You can't blame them. They can't think. They are a result of a mechanistic organization of matter. They don't have thoughts any more than a computer has thoughts. Their "thoughts" are nothing but mechanistic processes. Hmmm, they probably don't even have conciseness." - Andrew Cummins, refering to non-Christians. "Creationists do not deny any directly observed phenomena." - AC "Hitler believed in big government. Hitler didn't believe that human life had inherent value, thus he supported such things as abortion. Considering many factors, Hitler seems a lot like a modern American liberal." - AC "Don't be a liberal dupe. Even most heterosexuals with AIDS 'earned' it... but it's still is a fag disease." - AC[ellipse in original] "Then maybe the poor should either avoid being poor or avoid behaving in a way that makes them feel a need to avoid responsibility with something they can't afford." - AC "She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for the life of this little one back. After 15 minutes or so a crowd was gathered (you can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of her eye starting to approach. But the people pressed around her so, that the police couldn't get through. After a half hour or more of continuing to pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter Sawyer "That's a lot better than denying the Truth just because you're afraid of it. The more I read from you and the others like you in this echo, the more I know my faith is true. Thanks." - Tony Grisier "Didn't you know that *we* are Satan?" - Gord Magill "I know this is only second hand, but our local TV news did a two or three part series on parents killing their own children. The incident in Union was not as isolated as we would like to think and it may be a good working hypothosis. I don't remember the statistics that they gave, but the point was that the rate has been on a marked increase, beginning in the mid 70s. Guess when Roe v. Wade came down. The news didn't provide the corellation, history did. Now, I realize that its easy to lie with statistics. Even when you have a corellation, that doesn't prove a hypthosis, it merely supports it. If I can find the numbers I'll post them soy we don't have to go on just my remembrance of the local news." - David Hatfield "I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any rights and i never will." - Don Ward "What percenatge of Muslems worship Islam?" - DW "Well the hemophiliacs, are mostly drug abusers who will sell their body or blood for their addiction, or while hyped up they share needles to get-off. What would you expect from a drug addict?" - DW "Heres my judgment ,you are a desolate little old man who's afraid to leave your little xt/pc. I get on this "echo" because of all the fools on it, but you live on this "echo"." - DW "I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an _assistant moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all types of people. Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me run this bias _echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a respectable "echo", for the good of all." - DW "Adults do not allow others to speak their own minds in any fashon they want, Ive not seen that anywhere. Adults do let Children ( somewhat) learn the language but it has appeared to me thru many of your post that you do have a good sense of language so I can only presume that you are very much an adult." - John Reynolds "... "How talk you, yes. That, do we. Idiot, fucking, you are.": Yoda" - Tagline "Considering the Christian views on abortion and assisted suicide, my guess is that once you accept this "gift" of eternal life, you can never give it back. Seems like you might be making a mistake that could literally haunt you forever by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour, especially since Christians seem to think that just anything that is fun to do is a sin." - "Captain Fuck"/Dan Baldwin/"Dr. James Robertson" "Why feel the need to declare yourself a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Pagan, Wiccan, Stargoatian, or what have you? What is wrong with just being yourself? One thing I do not belive is that any cosmic deity is going to send me to eternal suffering because I don't believe certain things. I just can't imagine anything intelligent enough to create life, if that is in fact the way it happened, having such primitive feelings about it. Besides, suffering is a relative thing. Stick my hand in a fire for one minute and I may scream in agony, but leave it in there for a hundred years and see if I give a shit, never mind a million years or infinity." -CF/DB/DJR "`Aboard ship take thou the SEED of life' I am refering to the SEED of all life of any species. Only one thing did NOAH need to take two of, on the ARK, of EVERY living creature that walked upon the EARTH, and would easily be able to do so with the technology of the -GODS-. Also buy taking the SEED of life of every living creature he could get two of each on that small ARK. The SEED of life being refered to is, GENES. The GENES of a male and female of every creature would have accomplished the task nicely, would it not? With this you no longer have an argument of not enough room to house two of every creature, food to feed them for more than 6 months, etc...." - Barry "Suspended Animation" Laminack "He will not be there for you. If you have not accepted his lordship over your life, then you are at war with him and he is at war with you. That is not to say that he is not willing to forgive, but to stand in the place of God's judgement is a fearful place to be. What is right and wrong? Where does the idea come from? If you go by feelings, your feelings change from day to day. Do your morals change from day to day? Without God there is no right and wrong. There must be a reference point outside of yourself upon which to base your value judgements. What is your reference point? Without one you are incapable of determining for yourself what is right and what is wrong." - Unknown fundi Any evidence I have would be meaningless, because your point of view would prevent the obvious conclusion. I cannot *prove* to you the existence of God just as you cannot prove to me the non-existence of God. God has proven himself to me through the power he has shown in changing my life. Only the power of God can change a man's life and set him free from the burden of sin. Not that any Christian will ever be sinless, but the assurance of knowing the the penalty for your sin has been erased changes your life completely. I cannot prove to you the existence of God, but if you accept what he says about himself and about you in his Word the Bible, then everything makes complete sense." - Timothy Hartley "A recent court case acquitted Donald Napora of endangering the lives of the public by knowingly having unprotected anal intercourse (otherwise known as sodomy), while knowing he was HIV positive. Sodomy, once a crime against the state, is now not only tolerated and accepted, but actually promoted in many of our public school sex education programs, in spite of the fact that it is the leading cause of infection of the AIDS virus. For a society that is as safety conscious as any in the world, this is a gross contradiction. Does this bother you?" - Alan Kern "Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to envy. Your god was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's only living on borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in history of the universe." - AK "Science/archeology have often, and still do change their conclusions as they continue to find new evidence." - AK "Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals? "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is it only the Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because they have the mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47 "And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, you'll find that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and social outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. But then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you don't notice these things." - Quentin Fai "I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone who's been soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to notice, though." - QF "When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there will be no need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives whatsoever. Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments and othersuch will be out of place as well. For we who are his children will live under the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and he will be our God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't be around anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do not speak here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper "Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my pitchfork." - Satan "No one on this earth is starving to death EXCEPT by choice and Lazyness." - Titus Ashbury "Why does the earth always take 24 hours to get around the sun? Who controls this?" - Gary Hull "There is a Bibical principle that basically says that a Father who loves his children will discipline that Child. I personally have not had to spank my children very often. However this world if full of children and now adults that have not been disciplined. We see the results, they do not know how to live at peace with one another. They have no direction and purpose in their lives... In short the lack of discipline is a root problem many other social ills" - GH "All are Slaves to God.. some know it, some dont." - Pratap Derrick "...I do think that Christians are functionally illiterate or amoral. Why? Because if you read your own damn holy book, and were a decent person, you would reject it out of hand. Therefore, Christians (1) never read the Bible, (2) can't understand what they read, or (3) are indecent." - John McHenry "The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline Darwin of Borg: "Creationism is irrelevant. Evolution is inevitable. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." - honge@creighton.edu "Yes, even babies are born with aids. The innocent suffer all over the world along with the guilty. If you knew the Bible you would know why." - David Lewellyn "You christians are without a doubt the stupidest and, more importantly, the PETTYEST people on the face of the earth." - Unknown (From Usenet) "I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God even further than do pagan men." - Jim Staal "While the lazy and the slow (for the most part) seem comfortable with literalism, the more intelligent theists are constantly performing mental gymnastics to maintain credibility for their beloved myths. They've formed an uneasy alliance between the space age and the stone age." - Rob Burcham "Do you now know why we don't eat pork. Its what distinguishes us from people like you. The flesh contains microbes that invades your brain cells and couses such twisting of the mind as one can see from the language used above. This is how the mind reacts to such desieses. Some people get infected and some don't. I think David Rice and Sean McCullough are effected with the desiese too." - Shabeir Khan _\/_ . / \ . |\| (o)(o) |/| -------.OOOo--oo--oOOO.------- | New World Order ID | | ID #666 | | 666 N Babylonian Dr | ----------------Oooo.--------- .oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) - paul@terrabit.mn.org "now, I wash my hands of you since I have no further need nor desire to read the lying babblings of a twisted little fuckhead." - Karl Schneider "This seems to be a funny debate for a Religous Conference. Do y'all need prayin' for? Perhaps you need a demon cast out? Hmm?" - Clayton Davis "Jesus was taken down from the cross and rose from the grave on the third day. His Spirit entered earth on the day of Pentacost. That Spirit lives in me. Jesus and I have the same identity, hence the name CHRISTAIN. You may use whatever words you wish. Saying them detracts not one whit from the truth. And whenever we say it about you, namecalling is your response. I am what God says I am. Your believing he exists does not bother me. But it gives you great grief. Your worst fear is that my faith is in things that are the truth. Do not run from Jesus. Run to Him. He is the one who cares. I could not care less about you." - CD "As for why you would fear homosexuals, here are some common reasons. 1. One is afraid of the prospect of enduring a sexual overture of a nature one finds repellent. 2. One is afraid that homosexuality is a plot to destroy all decency and "family values". 3. One is afraid that ones offspring might choose to go that way if given the option. 4. One is afraid that oneself might choose to go that way if given the option. 5. One is afraid that giant flaming meteors might descend on one's head because of the behavior of one's neighbours. 6. One is afraid that everyone might choose to abandon reproduction, leading to the extinction of the human race. 7. One is afraid that people won't be willing choose one's virgin daughters over oneself when they feel like gang-raping somebody."- David Johnston "Sudden prayers make God jump." - Ivan Schaffel's origin line "For the last time: Omnipotence does not include the ability to do th[e] logically impossible." - Michael Hardly "I personally would prefer to see the human race go via nuclear war than by the takeover of homosexuality... then I wouldn't have to be witness to this erosion of our society that is now occuring." - George Pope "Famous last words of Jesus Christ: Father, beam me up." - Erik Harris "Skylab Died For Your Sins." - Paul Feonic "If ONE; yes One of the Non-believers has the faith of a mustard seed. He would wipe out their hunger!" - Jerry "cocksucker" Wilcox "Pat Robertson is no more a profit than I am." - J"C"W "So you are saying that EVERY human being that believes in the Bible are not thinkers? I think not!" - J"C"W "I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess YOU are now in." - Joanna Amren "Dinosaur bones, Noah's ark - it WAS found, and there is a big cover-up concerning it... What other proof do you need?" - JA "How about the masses killed by the godless following the logical conclusions of atheism?" - Glen Davis "Clearly, anything that "demonstrably disagrees with reality" cannot be from God, and therefore should be discarded." - Rick Mcfarlane "You're too stupid to be a creationist." - Dave Horn "In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo NOW." - Steve Wallis "The stars are God's Angels," - SW "In Christ's name I can drink any deadly thing and it wont hurt me(it's about faith and trust)" - SW "Oh you! You followers of sin! Satan has you all under his control and the only salvation is through Jesus Christ! Do YOU want to burn and suffer in hell? Do you want to be fried to a crisp for eternity? Are you scared yet? Good, because THAT is what's going to happen to you if you do not accept Jesus Christ into your heart and believe in the King James authorised version of the Bible!" - "Phill Mcrevis" "I would like to say that it is good that Jesus died for our sins and I am so glad he did!" - PM "You're doing it to yourself and don't even realize it. Not only are you an asshole, you are an idiot. And idiotic assholes are a dime a dozen on this planet. You are hardly special, and your attempts at "intelligence" and "wit" are painful to anyone who is actually capable of such things. I suggest you grow up. Your attitude and statements here in the echo show that while you may be phsyically an adult, psychologically, you are a three year old." - Jack Butler to Fredric Rice "Pay attention, you cretinous idiot: you asked for an example, and as my primary example of asshole atheists, I present Frederic Rice in all his glory. Evidence? Certainly. The last six months of mail traffic from you is all the evidence I need, and thanks very much for providing so much of it." - JB to FR "You're a druid, and think trees are alive?" - Christian Miller "That would be due to your own ignorance and bigotry, and would certainly not be their fault. OTOH, if I thought it would make you barf, slip, and fall off a ninety foot cliff, I'd kiss John Prewitt right on the lips and retrieve his tonsils with my tongue." - David Hilling to Christian Miller "He's not dead, but He died for you!" - Les Wilcox "noah was a real person in world history!, well God Sad the world was so bad & Sinful he wanted to start over.. well anyway he told his people that he would nevar do this agen.. Well this is not a hoax.. my prof is the bible" - Kris OKelly "Since most of the working force today is comprised of children from the 50s and 60s which are of the "brain-dead" generation which followed authority, how do you explain the success in this country?" - Maria Russell Multi-quotes袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Please show me ONE instance of a scientist especially one that specializes in the mechanisms of evolution that claims that evolution states that man descended from monkies." - Martin Goldberg "Maybe Creationists are descended from the same branch that produced monkeys rather than the one that produced the apes. After all, they do have a tale!" - John Musslewhite 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Actuallym my twit filter is becoming quite a collection on my BBS :). Pretty soon, it will be narrowed down to just the Christian's in here and no others will get through." - Unknown "Self-explanatory. This is who will run your world unless you are vigilant. These are the people that must never have a moment's peace, bcause the world will never have peace as long as even ONE of these human maggots remain extant on this earth. People wonder why folks like Fred, Martry, Sean and I (among several others) feel the need for bilious invective. That which you read at the top of this post is what evil is, in case Jesse still needs his definition supplied." - Robert Jackson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "She doesn't behave like a homosexual male. She behave like a WOMAN. The homosexual male behaves like a woman; not the other way around. Besides, she's anotomically correct for acting like a woman." - Christian Miller "So a=b but b<>a? You're so fucking stupid you don't even realize you're stupid." - Karl Schneider 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "If matter doesn't exist, what kills you at the bottom?" - Unknown "If it is not matter, then most likely it is mind" - Lee Woofenden "ROFL! Lee, what's your brain made of? Matter, perhaps? :-)" - "Hector Plasmic" "I see that Lee's at it again...." - Dan Ceppa "And before you start telling us the mind doesn't come from the brain, would you care to remove your brain _before_ telling us? Should be no problem if your mind is _not_ your brain, after all. Just another little test that you, too, can perform in your own home town." - HP "That must be Hector's Experiment, part II, for those that are stupid enough to perform part one and perhaps actually survive the first experiment." - DC 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Also consider all the diseases that go along with it from HepB to Aids...I know there are diseases that Heterosexuals have as well but incidences are higher with Homosexual. REF: Center for Disease Control" - Richard Morris "Bullshit. I suggest you call the CDC and get some up to date information. The percent rate of new AIDS infections is higher in heterosexuals than it is in homosexuals." - David Worrell "duh! so what's your point? My conclusion still stands. Incidences are 'still' higher in homosexuals then heterosexuals. I'm not speaking of just new cases." - RM 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Did you forget that the world is round and that I am both east and west of you at this very moment?" - Ryan Shaw "No I didn't - did you forget that the end of straight lines never meet? Sort of a small rule of geometry.... For a further examination" - Glen Buckley 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I have faith. That's all I need." - Christian Miller "If faith was all you needed for anything, then you could live in Antarctica sans clothing or food. Do so." - Preston Simpson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "But Hitler did NOT decide to be a Christian. He was a Roman Catholic Jew. One cannot be a Christian and a Roman Catholic. You have just eliminated faith. Hitler made the wrong decision. (Several in fact)." - Anthony Grigor-Scott "Remember, it's spelled "Anthony Grigor-Scott". There's a hyphen between the last two names; the space, as you may know, is between his ears." - Robert Jackson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "You gotta be a troll." - Kevin D. Mckenzie "What do you mean? A troll is a very ugly monster that lives under bridges and tolls people to cross. I don't think I am a troll. You probably said that because you don't have Jesus in your heart. That's okay because I can understand that then. Jesus saves. And you can be next." - Phill Mcrevis 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "God sends no one to Hell." - Christian Miller "I refuse to go to hell. What's going to happen to me?" - David Worrell "What do I care? How will you stop God the Father from sending you there? I can see it now: A little five year old brat not wanting to go to school, fighting his 6ft Dad. Yeah, you'll stop God." - CM 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "You fucking moron." - Michael "Mikey Hardly" Hardy "Sugar coating scrape off on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Mikey? :-)" - "Hector Plasmic" 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Then, while you're at it, ask him how many non-theists have given him any flak over his homosexuality." - Unknown "One. (Matt Giwer)" - Scot Bear "Were it not for me you would not be justified." - Unknown "Right----or left margin?" - Scot Bear "Right. Far right...very marginal. " - Robert Jackson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Damn - what bore does one use when hunting gods? I've seen .700 elephant guns, so I can only assume that a god gun must be something on the order of a 16 inch deck gun." - David Worrell "Naww, use a pellet gun. Gives the god a sporting chance, though still not much of one..." - Dan Ceppa (elipses in original) "Since we've never actually *seen* a God, we must extrapolate the characteristics of these gods from the evidence available to us. The Christians tell us that they want to be like God, but that God is much more powerful than they can ever hope to be. Christians are boneheads. Thus, gods must have an *incredibly* thick skull, necessitating the powerful ordnance referred to above." - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "* SLMR 2.1a * If my life doesn't show Jesus,I'm not really alive!" - George Pope "While not usually one to dwell on taglines, I feel it necessary to point out that if you do indeed follow the precepts set forth in this one, then I conclude you are not really alive. Since you are deemed to be dead, I formally request that you stop posting; we have enough wasted bandwidth from live posters." - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I do think for myself,[...]" - Kenneth Mcabee "That explains your 8,000 repetitions of your favorite Bible quote. You are using a defective organ. Try someone else's for a while - I'd suggest one from a species of a higher order, such as a slime mold." - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Get thee behind me Satan." - Jerry Wilcox "Bend over." - Satan "Get thee behind me Satan." - JW "Getting just a little bit anxious, aren't we?" - Satan "Not at all. Remember, I have Jesus on my side and I fear nothing." - JW "One sidesaddle and one behind! The man is a walking clusterfuck!" - Don Martin "Wow! What Jesus should do is get in FRONT ... then they can make a little train - Jesus, then Jerry, then Satan, all linked. Perhaps they could add in their god and the archangel Michael, too, one at either end." - Sue Armstrong 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "How many times must you be told. If someone was resurected they cannot be dead anymore. Therefore there will not be any evidence of their existance. They would be alive!" - Jerry Wilcox "Are you alive, Jerry? If you are, there would, by your logic, be no evidence of your existence. 'Bye, now." - Don Martin 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I want to know why that murdering SOB that you worship starves innocents to death." - Martin Goldberg "Because these so called innocents do not believe in God, or, know about God in any way." - Jerry Wilcox 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Why? Because you're just basically stupid. You're faith" - Bill 'banned' Wolff "I'm faith? No, I'm Kelsey, and he's David. You said something about being stupid?" - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "WHERE IS THE BODY,HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?" - Mike Rooney "By the looks of this line above, sounds like you're eating it." - Robert Jackson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I take it you've never heard of having your penis pierced, then?" - David Worrell "Hell! I was three blocks away and I heard it." - J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Atheists choose to be atheists." - Jesse Jones "I seem to have no choice in the matter -- lacking evidence, I find it impossible to believe in gods existing outside the imagination, just as I find it impossible to believe that Mickey Mouse can emerge from the TV and do me bodily harm." - "Hector Plasmic" 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "No he is not dead! Jesus died for us on Calvery!" - Jerry Willcox "Jesus being the Son of God died not God. However being that God and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, you might say God did die but because he is omnipotent he lived while he died!" - Jerry Wilcox, in the same message 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "To the eight who insulted me today. Bow, wow! Snarl! Pant! Pant!" - Clayton Davis "Were you humping a table leg while you typed that?" - J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I've *never* seen a camel at a salad bar." - David Roosterman "Count yourself among the lucky. They've got terrible table manners. (Lousy conversationalists, too.)" - J.J. Hitt "So, J.j., what's the difference between them and fundys?" - Dan Ceppa "If you ask a camel a question it doesn't understand, it will at least say something original like "ahrrrrooooghunnn" or "yhaaaarrwwwaaarrrrkh" (which very well mean something in Arabic). Our modemvangelists will reply with John 3:16." - JJH 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Would you kill your son if God commanded it?" - David Worrell "Yes I would believe with Abraham, who was over 100 and only had one son and was told by God that his descendants would be as numerous as the sands of the sea shore, That God would raise Him up or use the situation for His honor and Glory." - Gary Hull 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "In a Religion conference, you all think homosexual propaganda is about to shock us who are replicas of Jesus, our Lord?" - Clayton Davis "`Replicas of Jesus`?! You think highly of yourself, don't you?" - David Johnston 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Well, I guess we have a fundamentally different outlook...it strikes me that a belief in ANY kind of "god", some powerful, "magic", creator being, is more reasonable than matter spontaneously coming into existence out of nothing..." - Mickey Haist Sr. "Nope; they're absolutely identical, as long as you're limiting them to origins. "Where did matter come from?" "Oh, it just went *poof*" "Yeah, right." "Okay, where do you say it came from?" "God did it." "Oh, and where did God come from?" "Ummm... he just... um... went *poof*." "Uh huh." (The other alternative is to simply insist, with no logical basis, that God "jest is". Fine. Apply the same to the universe. Guess what? Identical claims. In any case, the result is the same: since we can at least tell the universe exists, adding deities doesn't amount to diddly.) Now, as soon as you add in the extra attributes of God, it moves from being equally ludicrous to far more so." - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Parable of the New Soap. Once upon a time in a far-away land far, far away, a young man named Joshua announced the discovery of a marvelous new kind of soap. People were skeptical at first, but they soon found that this new soap made everyone very happy because it got them so clean. Because it was so powerful, it got rid of dirt and stains that had been around for years. In our parable, Joshua's soap is the Gospel of Jesus Christ." - Marguerite G. Kendall "It can't be; they're not comparable. In the one case, there is a demonstrable positive effect of using the product [soap] - one gets clean and happy. In the other case, [Jesus] there is a demonstrable *negative* *effect - one's brain goes to mush, and if seriously infected, one has a tendency to try to control society or kill people." - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Democracy is impossible in the presence of even ONE Jesus worshipper!" - Sean McCullough [athist] "What the HELL is the matter with you? Your starting to become jus tlike the christians are! Judgeing everybody else.Dammit you've really pissed me off.It's okay to take shots at their religion, but it's another thing to make character assesments and pass judgements on MILLIONS of people you've never met. [...] I'm disgusted with you." - Luke Clark [Pagan] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "PRAISE GOD!! If he wasn't dead I would not be SAVED!" - Jerry Wilcox "Then, why bother worshipping a dead guy?" - Quentin Fai "Because God is not dead!" - Jerry Wilcox "Please make up your mind. Is your god dead or isn't it?" - David Rice "Perhaps he didn't beat it enough the first time?" - Dan Ceppa 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I say that for all the kids that he allowed to die in Kansas City. If he was any king of a god, he wouldn't have allowed that to happen, would he." - Dan Ceppa "If this country (particularly the powers that be) acknowledged Him as God, things like this wouldn't happen. Joshua 24:15" - Jim Staal "This country????? Every single person???? If your gawd makes that a condition to disallow wholesale murdering of children, FUCK HIM." - Karl Schneider 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "A. The purpose of gun control is to keep weapons out of the hands of dangerous maniacs. B. Currently, the most dangerous maniacs kill for religious reasons. Thus-Religious people should not be allowed to own weapons. Or buy fertilizer." - "Jon" (From Usenet) 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Spanking does not harm a child!" - Jerry Wilcox "Jerry you are correct. Prov 10:17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth. Prov 15:5 A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent. Prov 15:31 The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise. Prov 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Prov 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. This one is last, it is also the best start for a person who feels spanking is wrong. Last resort, I agree. Out of place, better read again. But I have found that those that critisize the Bible are those that have never read one." - Robert Benson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "If I had to describe my way in a few words, I would say "luciferanian"." - Thomas Vogt "I'd have to say you're a teeny-bopper without a clue trying to masquerade as a rebel without a cause in search of a religion to play with." - "Hector Plasmic" 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Or if the Honourable Speaker were to actually use that mace .. :)" - Sue Armstrong "Trouble is, those 'Reform'ers are probably packing 9mm handguns loaded with unjacketed ammunition." - Coridon Henshaw "But are they smart enough to figure out which end to point at the target?" - Jason Nishiyama 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Not at all. Creationism has never been wrong." - Unknown "Why don't you just hang a sign around your neck that says `STUPID'?" - Styx Allum 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "How does it feel to be a Coward for Christ?" - David Worrell "If I was a coward, why would I be in this echo?" - Kenneth Mcabee "Your presence in this echo is not a matter of cowardice or courage - it has more to do with your lack of intelligence." - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Good news: it's "KILL JIM STAAL FOR JESUS" Week here at HolySmoke!" - David Rice "I understand one can blow his brains out and he wouldn't mind. Or even notice." - Don Martin 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "What is firmament?" - J.J Hitt "FUCK OFF YOU INCONSIDERATE PIECE OF SHIT...YOUR DAY OF JUDGEMENT WILL COME FOR YOU!!!!!!" - Steven Ricketts 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Seeing God's will done on earth as it is in heaven is more important than my own happiness." - Jesse "Lock me up quick!" Jones "Many of your fellow xtians have thought that through the centuries. Many thought it was more important than anyone else's happiness, too. In fact, many of them thought it was more important that someone else's life, and therefore happily killed folks to see to it that "God's will" got done. Nice to see you're carrying on in such a glorious tradition." - "Hector Plasmic" 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Ahhhh, I recognize this. This is the way my ex would talk before he beat me for being "too smart"." - Gwen Todd "Sounds like he was the smart one. Wha'd you follow that act with? I don't know. I wasn't there. There ain't a story that donesn't hve two sides to it. Either way, the fact that he is her ex, makes him the smart one..." - Jim Staal 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Times change, Jim. It's all fine and well to be faithful now, but do you know exactly why you are faithful? Do you know why God lets innocent children be blown to bits by madmen? Do you not question why an allegedly omnibenevolent god would permit such evil to exist?" - Preston Simpson "Perhaps to help Janet Reno have some sleepless nights to demonstrate to her the evilness of her decision of two years ago? That is not my answer, but it is my thought on the OK city retribution act." - Jim Staal 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "God Dan" - Dan "Gnome" Ceppa "The Lord rebuke you." - Jim Staal "AIIIIIEEEE! Now he's REBUKEING us! Oh Woe! Oh Doom! Oh.... fuck you too." - J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I want him [god] do undo the mess in OKC. Bet he is unable." - Martin Goldberg "Quite able, but not willing." - Michael Hardy 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "WE AS CHRISTIANS HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THE BASIC TRUTH OF CHRIST AND HAVE DEVELOPED OUR OWN THINKING." - Unknown "Great Scott! Some people are thinking for themselves. Where could such heretical behavior lead!" - Unknown "Dancing!" - Unknown (From Usenet) 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "BZZT! You claimed to HAVE the information. Did the dog eat it?" - Karl Schneider "Trent [Hall] stole it and put it in his shoebox. Yeah, then he gave it to Billy [Wolff] who lost it in his pile of creationist pamphlets. Sure, then Mikey [Hardey] found it and reinterpreted it into "evidence" but refuses to show it to anyone. Yeah, that's the ticket." - Hector Plasmic 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "But the Holy Spirit is a person....in the Godhead." - Unknown "Is the "Godhead" where gods go to the bathroom?" - J.J. Hitt "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Benevolence is a straw man, and these asteroids of yours are totally theoretical." - Jesse Hornbacher "Really? You really have lived a sheltered life, haven't you? Maybe you ought to take a trip to Arizona (that's in the Southwestern U.S. in case you don't know) and jump into Meteor Crater and bump your "theoretical head". Ever look at the moon? Wonder where those craters came from? Or do you think the moon really is made out of cheese? Swiss at that?" - Carl Wilson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. I believe that the Holy Spirit caused one of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without sperm." - Steve Bedard "In vertebrates, the phenomena of parthenogenesis (look it up) is well documented in the classes Pisces, Amphibia and Reptilia, but not in Aves nor Mammalia. Therefore, we are forced to conclude that ol' Jesus must have been either a land shark or the original lounge lizard." - Marty Leipzig 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Methinks they protest too much! If God doesn't exist, why pay any attention to the activities of Christians?" - Frank Mcfatridge "Because if you don't, one of their number might just stick a 12 gauge in your ear and pull the trigger." - Marty Leipzig 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Most believers know the Bible was written by humans. The "issue" is whether or not the human authors accurately described events such as the parting of the sea." - John Prewitt "Okay. Then how did humans describe events such as the creation, which happened before there were any humans to witness them? So much for that hypothesis." - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Do you really expect me to believe that if God came down and killed your child that you wouldn't be in the least bit upset?" - David Worrell "Why should I be? Thier all going to heaven." - Kenneth Mcabee 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I watched my daddy farm." - Hampie Mcdonald "Fancy that... Old Mcdonald had a farm." - J.J. Hitt [Some months later] "Ahhh... I'm see FAQ fragements again... only to find out that I have become obsolete." - J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Besides, if I was caught in a boat with Don [Ward], I'd jump overboard." - Kevin Mckenzie "That's where you and I are different - I'd throw Don overboard." - David Worrell "When you get to be my age, you learn patience. I would not jump overboard. I would not throw him overboard. In such a situation, with only two guys, one boat, and the sea stretching for miles, I stand an excellent chance of getting hungry later on." - Don Martin 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "This is not comprehenable to man's brain." - Alan Kern "So which is it, Alan? You don't comprehend it or you don't have a man's brain?" - "Hector Plasmic" 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "So, "God" talks to you?" - Kevin Mckenzie "Sure! Doesn't he talk to everybody?" - Tenna Draper 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I agree it was not written for our level of technology. Yet fundies, in spite of this, still insist on a literal interpretation." - Bruce Riley "Yet Daniel told of aircraft, wireless radio, headlights on cars. Modern technology. Naahhh." - Titus Ashbury 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "We are _all_ worthy of death." - Tenna Draper "*You* might be. Kindly leave the rest of us out of your delusions." - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Tuck your telephone wire up your arse, Doug, and upload your nine posts where they will do the most good." - Don Martin "I can always tell when I've hit the nail on the head: folks start squawking. Thanks for confirming that the message got out." - Doug Snead "You take a studied, vulgar insult of your behavior as a "squawk"? You ARE a mindless little pustule, aren't you?" - DM "BTW. Are you saved?" - DS "I am afraid I do not share your hallucinations regarding imaginary superfriends. Corroborate your biblical ravings with some verifiable evidence, and I might consider signing up. But not until." - DM 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "May the Lord Jesus Christ soften your heart, Mr Martin." - Doug Snead "He seems to have done a very good job of softening your brain." - J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "It is stupid little gooks that bother me. Go stick it up your yellow ass." - Matt Giwer "I always suspected that Mr. Giwer was a complete and total gerbil smuggling sheep humper, and now you've provided me with concrete evidence. It's losers like that who give the rest of us godless heathens a bad name." - Quentin Fai 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "JESUS died for His people." - Douglas Duke "Jesus didn't die, remember? Don't you Christers believe he still lives?" - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "The scientific evidence is at the end. Read the whole posting, it flows." - Andew Conner "Another characteristic it shares with diarrhoea." - Don Martin 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "So, why do the paramedics take a pulse? Why don't they just thump the patient on the head?" - Don Ward "Because, in your case, it could possibly damage their hands." - Dan Ceppa 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Oxygen is technically a poison, and is one of the causes of our eventual death. Would you appreciate it if I tried to stop you from breathing to prevent the damage to your body that oxygen causes?" - David Worrell "Once again, a terrible analogy. I shouldn't even bother answering it, but I might as well say something. First of all we need oxygen to survive. I don't have to have sex with a male or female in order to survive." - Ralph Jansen "Irrelevant. Your whole argument against homosexuality rests on the fact that it damages bodily tissues. Oxygen does the same thing. However, since you don't like the oxygen angle, try certain harmful food groups. Do you believe that fried foods should be outlawed since they damage our bodies? Yes, I know, we do need to eat to survive, but it doesn't have to be fried chicken. Are you going to support the campaign to outlaw Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant?" - DW 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "What happens when that big fusion bomb fails to emit light and heat." - Andrew "Head-crash" Conner "We freeze to death. Got any more silly questions?" - David Worrell "Evidence of DE-EVOLUTION" - AC 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Satan is clever" - Don Ward "And, of course, you don't want to be anything like satan. Congratulations, you've succeeded." - Hector Plasmic 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Perhaps we could use him [Jim Staal] as a buoy in the middle of the shipping channel." - Dan Ceppa "I don't think so. Can you imagine the time it would take to get anything done in a harbor if one of the bouys was constantly proselytizing every ship that passed by?" - David Worrell "ROTFL! `I baptize you the USS Fundy! Now, be fruitful and deliver those bananas.'" - Dan Ceppa 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "The USA could kick Canada's butt with 99% of our military tied behind our back... thanks to our technological and military knowledge." - Andrew Cummins "Wow, how patriotic of you. Patriotism is one thing, Andy...but ignorance of the world is the one disease you seem to suffer from most. Why would you be proud of the fact that we can invade and take over Canada (this is doubtful I might add)? Why would you be proud of the fact that we've invested so much money in bullets and far from enough in education?" - Ryan Shaw 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I've already addressed this in one message to you, but to emphasize: I AM NOT A FUNDAMENTALIST. Do NOT make assumptions about me thinking I am." - Michael Hardy "`Quack,' said a certain flight-capable aquatic fowl. You persist in trying to include the unaffected in your beliefs. If you have webbed feet, quack and waddle like a duck, chances are, you are, indeed, a duck." - Fredric Rice [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "(Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.... Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.....)" - Quentin Fai "Try your local church." - Drew Webber 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "The main thrust of the cross is that JESUS was placed upon a pole, just as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole in the OT." - Douglas Duke "And when the Pope lifts his staff, we have the spectacle of Jesus on a pole on a Pole." - Don Martin 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Christians have a right and a duty to eradicate all false religions from the face of the earth. If possible this should be done through bringing the lost to Jesus. If that doesn't work then these false relions should be destroyed by any means necessary." - "Trent Dented" "Dear Trent... You aint dented, yer fucking wrapped around a goddam tree. Do any of these "false religions" that you have marked for destruction claim to be Christian? If so, please tell me how you tell the "true" Christians from the "false" Christians? Are you out to destroy all Catholics or all Protestants? And what about the Christian Scientists, Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and the Salvation Army? You gonna destroy all them too? They _ALL_ beleive in Jesus, even if they disagree with the mainstream on some points. How many Jews are you going to destroy? (The current high score is six-million some odd. That's going to be mighty hard to beat.)" - J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Atheist ethics are so much hot air." - John Prewett "While Christian ethics carry hot lead with them?" - George Rudzinski [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Christianity would be amusing, if it hadn't killed millions throughout history." - Unknown "Christianity never killed anybody or anything. Angry, frightened people killed other people while hiding behind the name." - Charlie Cowan "Hmm. By the same reasoning, Naziism never killed anybody. The problem with such reasoning is that it completely ignores the reality that many dogmas include an incitement to killing. Take a gander at the Old Testament, for example: it is loaded with rampant killing, generally for no more reason than that the victims dared to think for themselves." - Kelsey Bjarnason 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Maybe you should ask MISTER Ceppa. He'll probably try and convince you that is really Dave Oosterman." - Jim Staal "Between you and Oosterman, you don't have enough balls to make a pawn sign symbol." - Dan Ceppa 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Believe me, I *KNOW* the human side of *frustration*!!!" - Niki Zanzo "Have you considered hiring a hooker?" - "Captain Fuck" 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I didn't think that curse words and sacrigious messages belonged on this conference." - Margureet Kendall "You have provided ample evidence of your incapacity to think in the past, so why should the present be any different?" - Don Martin [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Gravity to you is Satan holding you back from the salvation of Jesus Christ." - Don Ward "What have you been smoking and what was it laced with?" - Preston Simpson "Second hand smoke laced with the spirit of GOD" - Don Ward 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Gay people are worshipers of SATIN" - Don Ward "No sheet?" -J.J. Hitt 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "One day not to far away I am afaid to say that it will actually be against the law to speak of Jesus in public," - Michell Miller Your paranoid delusions are amusingly ridiculous. But if they make life a little sweeter for you, enjoy." - Robert Curry 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "American schools are falling FAR behind the rest of the world. We are really becoming a joke, in so far as education goes. This started when we took prayer and creation teaching out of public schools. Conclussion: We took God out of school, and the school system is falling apart." - Doug Brewer "Preposterous to the nth degree. The Japanese have one of the most rigorous and hardest school systems in the world, churning out highly-educated people who, unlike many of their American counterparts, can read, write, and cipher by the time they graduate. I am not aware of *any* Christian influence in *any* Japanese class, yet they consistently provide higher educational standards than we do. Conclusion: Your conclusion is full of shit." - Preston Simpson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "... God told me to set you on fire." - Dan Ceppa "Uh, I don't _think_ so. God does not talk to evil pagans who do not believe He exists." - Jim Staal 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "What does John 3:16 mean to you." - Marguerite Kendall "It means it is time for John to get a new watch. His current one is stuck." - Steve Rose [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Bob Swell "Kill any innocent witches of late?" - Fredric Rice [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I didn't make this up, it says this in the Bible." - Chris Vetter "I see. So you are simply allowing someone else to make it all up for you." - Steve Rose 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Ah, the tired and disreputable old "He wasn't a *true* Christian" argument. Save it for someone who hasn't heard it." - Preston Simpson "Argumentum ad bozum non Christii." - Robert Jackson [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I guess you are also forgetting the practice of human sacrifice as described in the bible?" - Judith "Bandsaw" Bandsma "Shame on you Judith! You call yourself a Quaker! I smell a witch." - Jim Murray "Fee, fie, fo, fum, we all smell the stench of Christendom. Gonna start lighting bonfires, are you now? It's quite typical of the ignorant to accuse those more learned than they of "witchcraft". Your ancestors from Plymouth would be so thrilled that you are carrying on the family bigotry. I suppose you still wear one of those pointy hats to hide your pointed head." - Dan Ceppa 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Alcohol should still be illegal. I am sure that everyone is familiar with the harm that it does when used to excess. If everyone were capable of using it in moderation, I would see no problem with it, but you and I know that is not the case." -Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson "So your answer is punish everybody because a minority of idiots lack self-control and good judgement? Gee, then I guess we should ban the use of automobiles, firearms, cutlery, and baseball bats. Your inability to reason astounds me. And I've met my share of unreasonable people." - Garrett Banse [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "As marijuana does not produce food, it was not put here for our benefit." - Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson "Do you have even the most remote evidence to support this stupid idea? We cannot eat air, gasoline, cotton, glass, etc. either, so by your statement I guess we should all run around naked until we suffocate, huh?" - John Hewett 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "I hope Staal and Oosterman are covering their ears. Or should I tell them you're in desperate need of counseling?" - Unknown "Counseling? Counseling for what?" - Jim Staal/Dave Oosterman "A split personality. Thing is, between the 2 of you, you don't have one." - Dan Ceppa 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "More unsubstantiated rubbish. Can't you think for yourself?" - Preston Simpson "Sorry I don't need too, I have God to think for me." - Kenneth Mcabee 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "[however, even in the OT, God reasoned with God's people," - John Prewitt "and anyone who was not "God's people" were wiped off the face of the planet if they got in the way." - David Worrell "So,... once the word gets around, smart people don't get in the way." - John Prewett "Ahhh.. I see. God's a *bully*. It's so much clearer now. You have reaffirmed the claim made by many of us heathens that your God rules through intimidation and fear." - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Stop the car or you're going to drive off a cliff!" That's what the warning of "hell" is Stephen, a warning -- not a threat." - Michael Hardy "Ahh, but God put us in the car, cut the brake lines, and aimed the car at a cliff." - David Worrell "Then hid all evidence that the cliff exists, made sure that all 'warnings' were irrational, illogical, and patently absurd, and then selected only drooling lunatics as its spokespeople. Guite obviously, this god of theirs is more fucked up than they are." - David Rice 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Now, the sun-worshippers noticed that at certain points in time, the sun grew smaller, then stopped, then grew larger." - Leon Brooks "It doesn't. It doesn't even APPEAR to change in size." - J.J. Hitt "Perhaps you haven't been staring at it for long enough." - Leon Brooks [OBSOLETE] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Ask your local public librarian about other scriptures, Jim." - Robert Curry "There are no other scriptures, Robert..." - Jim Staal 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "You guess wrong. The Hindus, the Zoroastrians, and the Buddhists are just three other religious groups that had religious scriptures before your Christian religion even began writing its own." - Robert Curry "Ha-ha! Where _do_ you get this irresponsible information? Nothing could be farther from the truth. Nothing predates Genesis 1:1...'in the beginning...'." - Jim Staal 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "That's it, blow job. "IS NOT!!!!!" You are a liar" - Drew Webber "AM NOT!!!" - Jim Staal " Scream it a little louder for those in back." - Preston Simpson 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Greg, you old papsmear, long time no see. I have been awaiting with bated revulsion your detailed account of the number of changes that have taken place in Carbon dating over the past 30 years, with some attention paid to whether or not these were refinements in technique. So far, it has yet to appear. Do you need a repost of the original to know precisely what claim it was of yours that I was seeking additional information on? Just say the word!" - Don Martin "Just think about it... why else woulf they number the types of carbon dating?" - Gregg Waggy " Do you mean like Carbon-14 or Carbon-12? Dumbass, that number refers to the isotope of carbon that is being used. You can do better than this - how many times has carbon dating changed in the last 30 years?" - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "But why do many theists have compassion for a nearly brainless fetus, when they have little or no compassion for other fully functioning individuals?" - Rob Burcham "They feel a certain kinship with the fetus, maybe? " - David Worrell 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 "Do you think Jesus is proud of your feeble attempt at an insult?" - David Worrell Ah! So you do believe in Jesus. That's a good start! Now you need to love him and accept him as your Lord and Savior. Then you'll be fine. Trust in the Lord and all will be well." - Scott Brubaker Misc. Resources袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴 TOP TEN QUESTIONS THAT THE BIBLE CAN NOT ANSWER: 10 How many legs does a grasshopper have? 9 What is the ratio between a circle's diameter and it's circumference pi)? 8 What is a "firmament"? 7 Who recorded the events in the Garden of Gethsemane if all of the eye witnesses were asleep? 6 What tree grew in the middle of the Garden of Eden? 5 Is a bat a bird? 4 What does "Selah" mean? 3 How did Judas die? 2 How long was the Ark afloat? 1 Why did Jesus hate dogs? [From J.J. Hitt] 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 C. J. Henshaw 1:259/724 & 1:250/820 cjh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org Coridon Henshaw 1:259/724 & 1:250/820 csbh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org 袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴袴 袴袴袴袴袴 -666-

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