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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/25/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/25/96 [10:50] woowoo_ (rrtgodes@modem012.magpage.com) joined #apologetics. [10:50] :-) [10:50] woowoowoowoowoowoowoowoo [10:50] profg dan 4 is kewl [10:50] hi everyone [10:50] Action: NedFlndrs introduces woowoo to acolyte [10:50] hullo woowoo [10:50] whats up? [10:51] hello acolyte [10:51] NEd tells me u are a buddhist? [10:51] yes...fairly new to it [10:51] woo why fairly new to it? [10:51] only bout 5 years [10:52] ic [10:52] brb [10:52] did you convert from something else? [10:52] Nick change: NedFlndrs -> ___ [10:52] lots to learn [10:52] woo yes this is true [10:52] well..i was a Catholic [10:52] well why did you convert? [10:52] Action: ProfG settles back... [10:53] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.FIU.EDU [10:53] Topic changed by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Rule # 4-Let Acolyte do all the talking. [10:53] hehehe [10:54] why? [10:54] woo u there? [10:54] why what? [10:54] woo that was just a joke to Profg [10:54] yer asking me why? [10:54] but I was just wondering why you changed from Catholicism to Buddhism [10:54] lol [10:55] just curious [10:55] it didn't fit me anymore [10:55] profg I thought that would bless u ;) [10:55] <___> Just wondering??..lol...sure [10:55] woo, what? was it hard to put on in the morning or something? [10:55] LOL [10:55] what do you mean it did not fit you? [10:55] no [10:55] I don't understand? [10:56] did it shrink or somethin'? [10:56] explain plz [10:56] i tried to study it and it was too ridged [10:56] what do you mean "Too rigid"? [10:56] did it have roucgh edges? [10:56] rough even [10:57] hard kneelers or something? [10:57] what do you mean, too rigid? [10:57] lol [10:57] tell me what to do then???? yer the proff [10:57] woo me? [10:57] woo, ok well can I share something with ya? [10:58] brb, gotta change a diaper :-/ [10:58] man [10:58] <___> lol...prof.... [10:58] woo this is kinda the way I see things,... [10:58] woo a proposition is either true or it is false [10:58] but it is not both [10:58] Action: woowoo_ sounds like ned speaking [10:58] so when someone says to me "Hey, Jesus is the MEssiah." its either T or F. [10:58] Action: ___ imagines prof with an atheist..."well...the universe was....umm...excuse me...I have to grab a blanky and a handy wipe"..lol [10:59] LOL [10:59] Eol (Morgoth@C1.globalx.net) joined #apologetics. [10:59] so when someone says to me "Hey, Jesus is the MEssiah." its either T or F. [10:59] hello profg [10:59] ok...go on [10:59] <___> Eol...hello [10:59] hello ___ [10:59] woo, so, I don't make my mind up about claims to truth by how I feel about it, but weather it is true or not. If itis true, it does not conform to me, rather I conform to it. [11:00] <___> :) [11:00] hullo eol [11:00] Woo, so I am wondering on what basis did you change your religious affiliation? [11:00] apparently not by the way you just described [11:01] what is the discussion today? [11:01] woo, I thought so too, so did you decide on some other basis that did not deal with Truth? [11:01] Eol general religion chat presently [11:01] <___> Eol....dunno...whats your paradigm? [11:01] back [11:02] ___ do a /whois and take a guess [11:02] *yawn*..boring religious discussions r [11:02] <___> * ___ imagines prof with an atheist..."well...the universe was....umm...excuse me...I have to grab a blanky and a handy wipe"..lol [11:02] Eol, like what? #Atheism is packed? don't think so [11:02] hey profg [11:02] acolyte:) [11:03] LOL ned [11:03] hey eol [11:03] i don't think you need to use the laws of logic to know what is truth or fact or what is best for all situations [11:03] <___> ooowwww.....an OP from atheism [11:03] woo, perhaps it is hard for me to see how someone can change their whole worldview not based on weather a claim is true or not. I mean after all, you could end up believing allsorts of things based on how one might feel. [11:03] woo, if I don't use logic, what shal I use to know if something is true? [11:03] Eol Buddhism and Xianity [11:03] Action: ___ will make it an even fight [11:04] profg...is there any chance you could unban me from #bible? [11:04] Mode change '+o ___ ' by W!cservice@undernet.org [11:04] <___> [11:04] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.FIU.EDU: Rule #5 - At least TRY to base your decisions on reason! [11:04] logic rules huh? [11:04] <___> EOL..why so you can banter them some more? [11:04] eol: dunno, what did you do? [11:04] <___> NOT [11:04] profg...dunno what did i do? [11:05] woo if I am not supposed to use logic to know what is true, what eles am I going to use? [11:05] ___...better them? [11:05] Eol thats not a difficult taks [11:05] Eol thats not a difficult task [11:05] seems like ppl have used other than logic for centuries [11:05] Acolyte repeats himself [11:05] Acolyte repeats himself [11:05] lol [11:05] Action: ___ wants EOL to banter the apologists [11:05] <___> lol [11:05] Mode change '-o ___ ' by ___!dananova@ppp34.snni.com [11:05] woo such as? [11:06] eol, let me see what I can do [11:06] woo what else ahve they use? [11:06] profg.can u? [11:06] brb [11:06] <___> woowoo...he comes and goes...keep talkin...he will answer [11:06] checking eol [11:06] did Joseph use logic when the angel appeared to him? [11:06] profg...ask seriphm [11:07] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) joined #Apologetics. [11:07] <___> Hi video [11:07] Hi! [11:07] hi VB [11:07] Eol: asking [11:07] Hi [11:07] <___> VideoBlue is ~email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net * Steven AdamsVideoBlue on #apologetics [11:08] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.FIU.EDU: The Home of Rational Theism [11:08] A friend of mine told me about you...PG [11:08] me? [11:08] Yes [11:08] Woo yes he did [11:08] xpressor [11:08] ah [11:08] Woo Joseph used logic, all the time actually [11:08] Action: ___ knows expresor [11:08] good person [11:08] Yes he realy is [11:08] ok...how [11:08] <___> yes he did woowoo [11:08] woo he thought, thats how [11:09] <___> Woo yes he did [11:09] aaaaahhhhhhhhhh [11:09] <___> Woo Joseph used logic, all the time actually [11:09] an so do others [11:09] Woo, you can't talk without logic. [11:09] without those laws too [11:09] ___ ? [11:09] without what laws? [11:09] those laws...ask ned [11:09] you mean the law of Contradiction? [11:09] brb [11:09] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial70.fiu.edu) left #apologetics. [11:09] <___> woowoo....remember when I asked for you to give me an example where logic laws didnt apply?....they allways apply [11:10] ___ if they didn't, how would u be able to tell? [11:10] <___> I wouldnt be able to [11:10] <___> :) [11:10] <___> Logic; The science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference...... [11:10] <___> the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study...... [11:10] <___> a particular method of reasoning or argumentation. [11:11] <___> Logic is the study of right reason or valid inferences and the attending fallacies, formal and informal......Not everything is subject to logic, Only truth claims are subject to logic. Logic is descpriptive, not prescriptive. In othe r words.... [11:11] <___> Logic states the way we reason correctly. [11:11] <___> There are four laws of logic, these laws are undeniable, to refute logic, you would have to USE logic. [11:11] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial70.fiu.edu) joined #apologetics. [11:11] Ned thats nice, enough already [11:11] <___> :) [11:11] <___> thank you [11:11] :) [11:11] Eol: it's a site ban, and the bot is not responding to me [11:11] <___> :) [11:11] ___ = nedflndrs? [11:11] woo, the point is that the LAws of logic apply to every term, every word [11:11] Nick change: ___ -> NedFlndrs [11:11] profg...k forget it then [11:12] woo so if anyone talks, they use logic [11:12] woo if you think u use logic [11:12] yes EOL? [11:12] ok...then i guess i used it when i changed my view [11:12] Eol: I did something that Manager_ didn't like, and it hasn't been fixed yet [11:12] woo how? [11:12] profg no problem [11:12] yes EOL? [11:12] Woo did u use it correctly tho? thats the question [11:12] Nick change: Eol -> Melkor [11:12] yes ned? [11:12] i thought [11:12] woo but did you think correctly? [11:12] HEY MELKOR!!!!! [11:12] :) [11:13] whats up dude [11:13] Action: ProfG is gonna go get some more #apologetics logs up now [11:13] i believe so [11:13] not much ned u? [11:13] just hangin out....anything new over there? [11:13] woo ok on what basis did you change your position? [11:13] God bless all [11:13] c u l8r [11:13] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( ProfG )))))))))))))))))))) [11:13] ned..nope...i still have this cold though:( [11:13] BRB [11:14] Melkor...nasty....thats been a while with that one [11:14] almost 3 weeks now:( [11:14] mannnnnnnnnn [11:14] Go see a Dr. [11:14] i don't like doctors [11:14] lol [11:14] couldnt tell [11:14] :) [11:15] woo ok on what basis did you change your position? [11:15] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) left #Apologetics. [11:15] se ya video [11:15] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial70.fiu.edu) left irc: Leaving [11:16] i have to go for awhile..:( can i come back???? [11:16] #atheism @Episiarch #atheism End of /NAMES list. [11:16] ???? [11:17] woowoo...sure...I would hope that you continue the chat with acolyte....he lives down the street from me [11:17] he does??? [11:17] cool [11:17] yip [11:17] hes a great guy [11:17] on irc....well...lol [11:17] *** Signon by Elysium detected [11:17] woo ok on what basis did you change your position? [11:17] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) joined #Apologetics. [11:18] *** Signon by Elysium detected ????????<------------lol [11:18] i can't articulate it simply too you acolyte...can i think about it and get back to ya [11:18] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) left #Apologetics. [11:18] woo that is, if you changed from christianity to Buddhism, why do you now think Christianity is false and buddhism true? [11:18] thatnks ned [11:18] :/ [11:18] brb [11:19] i don't think Christianity is false [11:19] nope.... [11:19] woowoo thinks they all hold a form of truth [11:19] right? [11:19] yes [11:19] Action: NedFlndrs knew that :) [11:20] so in your mind...the change wasnt from true to false...it was from one orm to another [11:20] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) joined #Apologetics. [11:20] yes [11:20] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) left #Apologetics. [11:20] orm=form [11:20] that's more like it [11:20] religious discussions=boring [11:20] Video..in or out bro [11:21] brb [11:21] acolyte...see that?...woowoo's response? [11:21] in fact... [11:21] woowoo.....like we have talked about..... [11:22] religious truth is relative to each person...right? [11:22] Christianity and Buddhism go together nicely [11:22] ned..correct [11:22] Melkor...you believe this as well? [11:23] religions are man made [11:23] those who have a religion [11:23] nicely oh does Buddhism think JEsus is God in the flesh? [11:23] yes [11:23] woo they are? [11:23] yes [11:23] they are [11:23] mlkor no one is keeping here [11:23] woo how do you know that? [11:23] God ain't apologetic [11:23] :) [11:23] woo how do you know religions are man made? [11:23] Action: NedFlndrs ducks [11:23] or Catholic [11:23] acolyte...keeping here? [11:23] or Buddhist [11:23] mlkor no one is keeping U HERE [11:24] woo, how do you know that religions are man made? [11:24] acolyte....and? [11:24] melkor...he saw your boring comments I take it [11:24] look it up [11:24] ned 10 4 [11:24] woo I have [11:24] yer a smart man [11:24] *shrug* [11:24] woo but that does not prove it [11:24] woo how do you know that they are man made? [11:25] it's a shame you feel you need to prove everythoing before you can believe it [11:25] woo oh so perhpas I should believbe in Jim Jones?? [11:25] woo ir perhaps I should believe in the Great Pink Grilled Cheease sandwich eating martian deity? [11:25] woo I don't just believe anything [11:26] or everything [11:26] if you want to..and your gut/senses/mind/heart/soul can't warn ya he is not real...too bad for you [11:26] besides, if its a shame, I would rather be shamed for what is true than a sucker for something that is false [11:26] Action: NedFlndrs likes Jim Jones....he reminds me of the TBN crowd [11:26] lol [11:26] woo, too bad for me? [11:26] acolyte..r u a christian? [11:26] yeah [11:26] too bad [11:26] Mrlkor yes [11:26] woo why is it too bad? [11:26] melkor why? [11:27] just curious [11:27] if you got suckered into Jim Jones [11:27] those ppl were sad [11:27] woo but I think you got suckered into buddhism [11:27] you have no reasons for what or why you believe what you do [11:27] your opinion [11:27] same as Jim Jones [11:27] its arbitrary [11:27] woo then give me the reasons why you changed? [11:28] woo if you did not get gulibly suckered into this, give me some reasons then [11:28] and how about all the poor suckers got pulled into Christianity...made to believe something other than their own beliefs [11:28] woo, what if they did? theya re not here, you are [11:28] beaten too a pulp [11:28] woo, am I a sucker? [11:28] woo such as who? [11:28] dunno are you? [11:29] woo no [11:29] good [11:29] woo but do you have any reason for believing Buddhism? [11:29] any at all? just one? [11:29] don't like debating with suckers [11:29] Action: NedFlndrs was tortured into theism.....lol [11:29] :) [11:29] why is buddhism true? [11:29] why is christianity true? [11:29] Melkor, I am getting there [11:29] JUST as true...is the question [11:29] scolyte..k:) [11:29] woo, so contradicitons can be true [11:30] acolyte even [11:30] woo?? [11:30] Scolyte is Acolyte Lite ;) [11:30] lol [11:30] woo, so contradicitons can be true?? [11:30] tell me the contradiction..other than "no man can get to the Father except thru Me" line [11:31] woo, weall its like this, Xianity says that Jesus is God the Son inthe Flesh, Buddhsm denies this, whihc is correct? [11:31] Woo they can't BOTH be true [11:31] woo how do you know that Jesus/ xianity is false and buddhism is true? [11:31] acolyte..how bout u tell us which is true [11:31] i never saidJesus was false [11:32] Melkor reason, authority, evidence and expereince [11:32] i pray to Him also [11:32] woo, well buddhism does, are you not a buddhist? [11:32] woo also? [11:32] yes also [11:32] Woo Jesus was under the impression that he was the ONLY True God. did he lie? [11:32] reason,authority,evidence and experience? [11:32] woo was he decieved? [11:33] melkor yes, do you know what those are? [11:33] acolyte...no idea please explain [11:33] melkor the four catagoryies for testing truth claims [11:33] Buddha never claimed to be God [11:33] woo I know, but JEsus did, and he claimed to be the only one [11:33] just Awake [11:33] :) truth claims huh...and who was it that made these categories? [11:34] melkor, try your local logician [11:34] NedFlndrs (dananova@ppp34.snni.com) left irc: Ping timeout for NedFlndrs[ppp34.snni.com] [11:34] woo no, I am already awake, for he who has the Son walks inthe light [11:34] i like the part of Buddhism that teaches me to meditate and pray [11:34] so acolyte... prove then u r correct [11:34] i pray to Jesus [11:34] woo fine, I meditate and praya s well, just because I like it or not does not make xianity true [11:34] woo who is Jesus? [11:34] i know that doesn't make sense to you [11:35] but it makes perfect sense to me [11:35] woo well perhpas you can explain this perfect sense to me [11:35] and so far,,, got no gripes from the Lord [11:35] woo, who is JEsus? [11:35] he still Loves me :) [11:35] NedFlndrs (dananova@ppp9.snni.com) joined #apologetics. [11:35] Woo not really [11:35] so acolyte... prove then u r correct [11:35] melkor I will [11:35] re all [11:35] please do acolyte [11:36] melkor ROme was not built in a day ya know [11:36] re ned [11:36] woo who is JEsus? [11:36] acolyte...i don't know that [11:36] acolyte...Jesus is the guy in the Bible [11:37] Melkor it is probable based on all historical data that rome was not built in a day [11:37] re ned [11:37] Action: woowoo_ braces herself [11:37] acolyte...that still doesn't prove it wasn't built in a day [11:37] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) joined #Apologetics. [11:37] melkor sure it does [11:37] i was taught Jesus was the Son of God [11:37] probable but not 100% sure [11:37] acolyte..how? [11:38] part of the Trinity [11:38] melkor no inductive method IS [11:38] woo, part of the Trinity? [11:38] yes [11:38] :) [11:38] woo does the Trinity have parts? [11:38] 3 [11:38] woo false [11:38] woo God does not have parts [11:38] woo that is basic xian teaching [11:38] Woo God is individsible [11:38] according to Catholics it do [11:38] Woo BS [11:38] woo that is not Catholci theology [11:39] I am Catholic [11:39] Woo the teaching is this [11:39] yer not enlightened by Catholics then [11:39] that within the essence of the One God there are 3 co-eternal Persons [11:39] Woo try reading Thomas Aquinas [11:39] Action: NedFlndrs the trinitarian belief is one God in three persons....you cannot divide the substance nor confound the persons. [11:39] ned correct [11:39] splitting hairs [11:39] either way...those would be heretical views [11:40] semantics [11:40] woo, I have forgotten more Catholic theology than you will ever know [11:40] BS [11:40] the difference is three gods verse one God, big difference [11:40] Action: woowoo_ is insulted now [11:40] woo fine, be that way [11:40] no skin off my nose [11:40] Nick change: Melkor -> Eol [11:40] but you have no reasons for what you believe [11:40] VideoBlue (email@qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net) left irc: Ping timeout for VideoBlue[qrvl-67ppp92.epix.net] [11:40] MrCrimson (kyleb@199.106.62.33) joined #apologetics. [11:41] MrCrimson (kyleb@199.106.62.33) left #apologetics. [11:41] woowoo...do not be insulted....... [11:41] thought you apologetics didn't put down the person [11:41] woo it is apparent now that you left Christianity because you had very little basis for believing it at all. You did not bother to find otu what it was you were believeing or doing [11:41] woowoo....it was not meant as an insult. I assure you. [11:41] woo i did not put you down. [11:41] yes u did [11:41] woo I mearly said that what you said was "BS". [11:41] thats was not an ad hominem [11:42] woo fine, feel that way [11:42] semantics BS [11:42] well been fun i'm off for some non-religious chat..later [11:42] woo but, the point remains, you have not given ONE single reason was to why to believe buddhism is true [11:42] I see no diference in what either one of you said [11:42] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( Eol )))))))))))))))))))) [11:42] cya ned [11:42] Eol (Morgoth@C1.globalx.net) left #apologetics. [11:43] woo, I have forgotten more Catholic theology than you will ever know [11:43] woo, God does not have parts nor passions, basic teaching about God in xian theology [11:43] woo, its true [11:43] woo, I have forgotten more Catholic theology than you will ever know [11:43] woowoo...can I help?....he *IS* catholic [11:43] woo yeah, so? [11:43] prove me wrong [11:43] that's insulting [11:43] woo truth hurt eh? [11:43] shouldnt be....you should test his claim [11:43] woo, hey I am just tired of all your jumping around [11:44] Action: NedFlndrs is told that all the time..LOL [11:44] woo youhave no reason for what you believe [11:44] thats the issue [11:44] Mr..i know more than you??? how does that fit into a proper debate? [11:44] woo give me a reason why I should believe Buddha? [11:44] woo see if I care? sticks and stones [11:44] nmes don't hurt [11:44] woo give me a reason why I should believe Buddha? [11:45] woo buddha was not God, he is dead [11:45] don't care if you believe in Buddhism or not..it's a personal relationship with God that i search for [11:45] woowoo....dont take it personal...I have said much worse things to you. [11:45] you ain't gonna get it in buddhism [11:45] thats for sure [11:45] got it already [11:45] wooself deception is a powerful tool of the mind [11:45] self deception that is [11:46] goes both ways [11:46] woo sure does, but I have reasons and evidence, you have Zip [11:46] too bad for me then huh? [11:46] I think what I believe is a TAD more reasonable than your ZIP for believing for what you do [11:46] woo, put it this way, hope you like hot weather [11:47] SEE!!!!! [11:47] see what? [11:47] go ahead..damn me for not believing your way [11:47] Action: Acolyte sees woo on the path to eternal punishment for her arrogance in apostasiing [11:47] mnight as well beat me to a pulp [11:47] woo no, for rejecting God's means of salvation [11:47] like all the others [11:47] ahahha [11:47] such ignorance [11:48] look to the true light [11:48] i think it is a shame you are so narrow minded [11:48] acolyte..."go to hell" is a proper premise for debate? [11:48] woo and you are open minded? [11:48] yes...i am [11:48] woo well letting anything in your head is not wise, is it? [11:49] it is when i have the ability to choose for myself what i believe [11:49] if that is what open minded is, I do't want to just believe anything, just because it feels good, which is exactly what I percieve you are doing [11:49] Woo I choose for myself too, but not based onwhat I felt liek [11:49] too bad [11:49] woo your god is yourself [11:50] God is in me yes [11:50] you look to yorself to make god in your own image of your likes and dislikes [11:50] woo are you God? [11:50] woowoo...is it the choice that is important...or the belief that is important..??..I dont have a choice to believe some things,....neither do you. [11:50] both ned [11:50] woo are you God? [11:50] i said...God is in me [11:51] woowoo.....or are you a god? [11:51] fine,m are you God? [11:51] not..i am God [11:51] woo buddhism says that everything is God, how is that so? [11:51] woowoo...you are diety? [11:51] Action: woowoo_ does think she's a Goddess...oopppsss better behave [11:51] Action: Acolyte ponders [11:52] Action: NedFlndrs wonders why a goddess would be finite [11:52] God and the Universe are incomprehensible mysteries [11:52] so.. [11:52] how do you know they are incomprehensible mysteries? [11:52] you use logis to help you understand [11:53] logic [11:53] and i use feelings and prayer [11:54] IIORASHID (IIORASHID@68-56.client.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [11:54] woo when u do math, do you use your feelings or your brain to know which is the correct answer? [11:54] Action: woowoo_ hates math [11:54] but [11:54] woo forgive me, I use my brain [11:54] brain [11:54] I hate math as well but I use my brain, not a liver shiver [11:54] Action: woowoo_ laughs..a liver shiver????? [11:55] when u llok at history to see if buddha lived, do you use your feelings or your brain? [11:55] llok=look [11:55] both [11:55] u=you [11:56] Forgive me for interupting, but where is this all going? [11:56] joj (jogodc@pm1-5.niia.net) joined #apologetics. [11:56] how do feelings tell you which is correct? plz explain [11:56] this I gotta see [11:57] III heck if I know [11:57] woo plz ezplain [11:57] you'll never know..you don't use feelings..too bad [11:57] Jesus had a few as i recall [11:58] used em as well [11:58] woowoo, sometimes one can rationalize himself right into hell. Don't you agree? [11:58] showed us it was human [11:58] woo I use feelings, just not to know if somethng is true or not [11:58] woo yeah but Jesus di not base his beliefs base don his feelings either [11:58] woo what u feel may not be true [11:58] woo sure feelings are human, so? does not mean one should use them to decide if soemthing is true or not [11:58] din't say feelings were truth [11:59] joj (jogodc@pm1-5.niia.net) left #apologetics. [11:59] woo but you are sayinbg that u know truth baed on how you feel about it [11:59] which is obviously false [11:59] but over time..and with prayer and meditation...i can know better [11:59] HOW? [11:59] it's called trust [12:00] I pray, meditate, fast, and abstain, so? [12:00] Why do you do that? [12:00] who do u trust? [12:00] II me? [12:00] IIORASHID is IIORASHID@68-56.client.gnn.com * Abdul-Rashid Abdul [12:00] Yes [12:00] II beacuse JEsus commanded it, as did his Apostles [12:00] II r u a Muslim? [12:00] Yes [12:01] Sunni or Shi'ite? [12:01] Sunni if that is the label you wish to use [12:01] fine [12:01] II where are you presently? [12:01] Hawaii [12:01] brb [12:02] What is brb? [12:02] be right back [12:02] Need more data? [12:03] woowoo, Are you there? [12:04] Action: IIORASHID Who is Acolyte? [12:04] II....?? [12:04] yes [12:04] but gotta go [12:04] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( woowoo_ )))))))))))))))))))) [12:04] Action: woowoo_ gives a big hug to ((( NedFlndrs ))) [12:04] Are you a Buddhist? [12:04] II....tell me about yourbelief about God, the world...etc [12:04] tell acolyte i said bye [12:04] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( woowoo_ )))))))))))))))))))) [12:05] yes II [12:05] ok will do [12:05] :) [12:05] woowoo_ (rrtgodes@modem012.magpage.com) left #apologetics. [12:05] II....tell me about yourbelief about God, the world...etc [12:05] Islam believe in One God, the Arabic name Is Allah, hust as Dios is Spanish for God [12:05] hust=just [12:05] ok....and? [12:06] There are five pillars in Islam [12:06] tell me about them [12:06] I dont know [12:06] #1 Declaration of Faith: There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger. [12:06] ok [12:06] #2 Daily Prayer: Five times prayer a day [12:07] ok [12:07] #3Fasting: Fast from dawn to Sunset during the holy month of Ramadan [12:07] ok [12:07] Ramadan is a month in the Islamic lunar calendar [12:07] got ya...ok...and? [12:08] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.FIU.EDU: The Home of Rational Theism [12:08] #4 Zakat: 2.5% of your wealth is to go to the poor. [12:08] ok..kool... [12:08] Zakat means alms-giving [12:08] ok....and? [12:08] Xpressor (kgb@slip6.worldaxes.com) joined #apologetics. [12:08] #5 Hajj (pilgrimage) : Pilgrimage to Makkah once in a lifetime [12:08] EXPRESSOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [12:08] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( Xpressor )))))))))))))))))))) [12:09] There are also six articles of Faith [12:09] {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ NedFlndrs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} [12:09] #1 Belief in the one God [12:09] howdy! [12:09] hey...your tapes are done bro....... [12:09] awsome!!!! [12:09] II keep goin..Im watchin [12:09] I'll resume when you are ready. [12:09] OK [12:09] sorry go on [12:09] #2 Belief in the Angels of God [12:10] #3 Belief in his Prophets and Messengers [12:10] EXPRESSOR....hey....do you have an original manuscript of the Big Book of AA.??...I included one for you...it has claims of Jesus in the back on the personal stories [12:10] #4 Belief in the Holy Books (I'll explain more later) [12:10] no...cool thanx! [12:10] II...I would like to ask a few things about the nature of your God [12:11] Action: Acolyte is back [12:11] OK, I'll resume the rest later [12:11] Expressor...I have to send it now...its gonna be like 10$ cod [12:11] iior whydo u think Muhammed was a prophet? [12:11] Xcellent !!! [12:11] II....how does this belief deal with evil within our world?...murders...rape...etc [12:11] God declared him so in the Qur'an and in the Bible. [12:12] II, well I think that is highly debateable [12:12] one question at a time [12:12] fine [12:12] NEd go first [12:12] Expressor..I could only get the faith techers and some logic on there...I would need two more of those packets just to get all of what I have on logic/philosophy :) [12:12] II....how does this belief deal with evil within our world?...murders...rape...etc [12:13] OK, you're satisfied with the first answer to your fist question? [12:13] what is the source of evil?...what is evil? [12:13] fist=first [12:13] no...I have had no answe as of yet [12:13] answer [12:13] ?? [12:14] Action: Acolyte waits his turn [12:14] You asked me why do I believe that Muhammad is a prophet, right?? [12:14] Nope [12:14] I asked that, Ned did not [12:14] this is what I asked....... [12:14] II....how does this belief deal with evil within our world?...murders...rape...etc [12:14] what is the source of evil?...what is evil? [12:15] zapp (herman@hez.ffl.min.dk) joined #apologetics. [12:15] Let's begin by defining the source of everything. [12:15] II fine [12:15] God Created the world [12:15] agreed [12:15] He was here before everything [12:15] agreed [12:15] He is the soverign on heaven and earth [12:15] agreed [12:16] God has given man free choice [12:16] This makes him a just God [12:16] agreed for now [12:16] God has created man and angels [12:16] mmmm [12:16] There is another creation which is mentioned in the Qur'an [12:16] II how does this account for Evil inthe world? [12:16] II...ok...so..how does this answer my question [12:16] It is called Jinn [12:16] wait [12:16] ok [12:17] Jinn are made from fire, Angels from light, men from clay [12:17] Jinn is close to what you call demons or spirits [12:17] The Devil or Satan is what we call Iblis [12:18] You guys are fired up, I love this! [12:18] Better than the rest of the filth that is on the internet! [12:18] II fine, how does thia ccount for evil int he world is God is omnibenevolent? [12:19] Acolyte..please no scripture...Its hard to follow [12:19] You should listen to my radio show, 1080 AM [12:19] you have a radio show? [12:19] I'll get back on track [12:19] internet radio? [12:19] Yes I do. [12:19] we are putting one up as well [12:19] No not yet but I'm working on it [12:19] dito [12:19] I'm still investigating how to do it. [12:19] how does the existence of other beings acount for evil inthe world? [12:19] anyways [12:19] how does the existence of other beings acount for evil inthe world? [12:20] continuing... [12:20] Action: Acolyte watches [12:20] Action: Acolyte watches with egear anticipation [12:20] When God told the Angels to bow down to man all did save Iblis (devil) for he was a Jinn and was amongst the angels [12:20] Action: NedFlndrs is waiting for an answer [12:20] We know that angels can only obey God. [12:20] That is their purpose. [12:20] finwe [12:20] But man and Jinn have free choice. [12:21] fine, so? [12:21] ok...so...? [12:21] Iblis said why should I bow down to man when he is from clay and I am from Fire [12:21] why did God allow evil in the world if he is omnibenevolent? [12:21] So God cursed him. [12:21] God was going to punish him but Satan begged for respite [12:21] ]God granted him [12:21] fine, so what? why did God allow evil in the world if he is omnibenevolent? [12:22] Then Satan said, I will show you how good man is. [12:22] fine, so what? why did God allow evil in the world if he is omnibenevolent? [12:22] I will mislead him [12:22] God said, you will only have power over those who listen to you're whispering [12:22] God has given us clear guidance [12:22] but he has left the choice up to us [12:22] II....I think you missed my point....I didnt ask how it came to be...but why? [12:22] fine, how does that explain why there is evil in the world? Why did God create beings who would do evil in the first place? [12:22] If we choose to receive the guidance [12:23] fine, how does that explain why there is evil in the world? Why did God create beings who would do evil in the first place? [12:23] Good question [12:23] I know [12:23] lol [12:23] The angels asked Allah that in the Qur'an [12:23] I need a good answer [12:23] i know you know [12:23] His answer: [12:23] was? [12:23] I am the hearer and knower of all things. [12:23] I know what you know not [12:23] obviously [12:23] so? [12:23] why evil tho? [12:24] You might as well ask then if this isn't good enough, why God created anything at all. [12:24] EXACTLY! [12:24] why? [12:24] Why what? [12:24] II....I think you missed my point....I didnt ask how it came to be...but why?...not what God has said...I am lookin for an explanation for its existance...and its purpose [12:24] WHY did God create anythign at all? [12:25] OK, then let me answer the questioner, not the gallery. [12:25] lol [12:25] lol [12:25] WHY did God create anythign at all? [12:26] I don't know. Either I am still to learn of this, or it isn't meant for man to know at this time? [12:26] I don't know.??????????? [12:26] I can still answer your first question though [12:26] oh my [12:26] I don't lie about something I don't know. Knowledge comes from God [12:26] something that painfull as evil...and you have no idea about it [12:27] oh my [12:27] You weren't asking about evil, you got off track [12:27] oh my [12:27] IIORASHID (IIORASHID@68-56.client.gnn.com) got netsplit. [12:27] IIorshaid, can you address my question now? [12:27] darn [12:27] he'll be back [12:27] might be a split [12:28] zapp on #apologetics #!married_n_flirting #Agape #bbwoasis [12:28] put him on notify [12:28] hhahaha [12:28] hahhaaa [12:28] ned I am so nervous and stressed [12:28] Action: zapp is on #agape [12:28] zapp??....do not those rooms kinda go against each others themes? [12:28] ned gotta go check my email [12:28] brb [12:28] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left irc: Leaving [12:29] IIORASHID (IIORASHID@68-56.client.gnn.com) returned to #apologetics. [12:29] you feel that way Ned? [12:29] acolyte...bro..it will be kool....... [12:29] IIORASHID (IIORASHID@68-56.client.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [12:29] ohh man... [12:29] Action: zapp wants to hear 'bout this evil thing [12:29] zapp...what do you believe about evil? [12:30] war, pain, murders, rape..etc [12:30] all the bad stuff [12:30] Action: zapp doesnt believe in omibenevolent [12:30] you mean Omni [12:30] :) [12:30] Action: zapp dyxlesic :) [12:30] gotcha [12:30] :) [12:31] zapp...what do you believe??? [12:31] are you christian? [12:31] atheist? [12:31] Action: zapp believes in hearts [12:31] Action: zapp believes in minds [12:32] ??....do you study any specific religion? [12:32] Action: Xpressor is still struggleing with some questions about evil... [12:32] Expressor...like? [12:32] Action: zapp is most interested in christian variants [12:32] kool..zap...have we spoke before? [12:32] Action: NedFlndrs thinks so [12:32] dunno ned you always have the same nick? [12:33] yip [12:33] Action: zapp smiles [12:33] Action: NedFlndrs believes in using the mind as well [12:33] You have to use the mind...Its not an option [12:33] and the heart!! [12:33] yes... and the heart!! [12:34] what is evil if all works togetherfor good, what is good without evil ,...like wet without dry? [12:34] Action: zapp believes that evil is a choice [12:34] zapp...go on [12:34] ? [12:34] brb...coffee [12:35] zap u christian? [12:35] back [12:35] zap....is murdering wrong? [12:35] ned: i think so [12:35] why? [12:35] murdering at will is wrong [12:36] why? [12:36] who says? [12:36] we dont have the right to take someone life [12:36] who says so? [12:36] the law maker sez [12:36] so what... [12:36] thats just the law makers... [12:37] if they made a law that said it was ok...would it be OK? [12:37] the big law maker [12:37] why should you have the right to take someones life, its not yours to begin with [12:37] in the sky [12:37] : ) [12:37] zapp..that doesnt answer the question [12:37] yes it does ned [12:37] sorry i'll shuddup [12:37] why is murder evil? [12:37] because some law guy said so? [12:37] because you dont have a right to do that [12:38] why not...who says? [12:38] where do rights come from? [12:38] why should you that? [12:38] why not? [12:38] zapp..Im tryin to make a point here [12:38] evil = a choice [12:39] what is evil...and who says what IS evil? [12:39] every individual can judge for themselves [12:39] what makes something evil? [12:39] answer those 3 questions [12:39] zapp...oh my [12:40] evil = not objective, if that is what you want to prove [12:40] every individual can judge for themselves.......<--------- so in my view to kill a babie for fun is ok....so now its moral to do so.? [12:40] yes ned [12:40] whoah [12:40] Action: zapp smiles [12:41] Action: NedFlndrs passes out [12:41] Action: zapp gives ned a chair [12:41] after that I need one... [12:41] is all subjective and nmothing objective? [12:41] Action: zapp gives ned another chair [12:41] hehehe [12:42] xpres: be more specific [12:42] so what you are saying is that evil/pain...is what each person makes it?...then why do we care about murder??...should it not be survival of the fittest? [12:42] morality.. sub or ob jective? [12:43] who is to judge who is the fittest? [12:43] zapp..the fittest [12:43] Action: zapp smiles [12:43] the one who survives according to you [12:43] the one who survives is probably the one with morals :) [12:43] might makes right? [12:44] no xpres [12:44] if morality is subjective...then you may not say what is or is not evil...because in doing so...you have placed your value upon someone else [12:44] yes ned [12:44] relatavism renders morality meaningless [12:44] as well as truth [12:44] morality = social behaviour [12:45] zapp...do you know logic? [12:45] Action: zapp knows logic [12:45] formal logic? [12:45] do you believe in Logic? [12:45] Action: zapp knows Turing-machines [12:45] Action: Xpressor want to know logic... [12:45] in a limited sense yeah [12:46] go 4 it ned we'll try to hang! [12:46] zapp...why...Logic is unchaingable...and is objective...kinda throws a wrench in your system [12:46] why ned [12:47] zapp...do you believe that a God exists? [12:47] depends on definition of god [12:47] a being that is creator of the universe..as a basic start [12:48] Action: zapp doesnt believe in a being in the biological sense [12:48] zapp...what would you define as God? [12:48] this matters to the logic issue [12:48] Action: zapp defines god as the Unknowable [12:49] zapp...how do you know that the unknowable is unknown? [12:49] Action: zapp doesnt know the unknowable [12:49] lol [12:49] lol [12:49] how did you come to that belief? [12:50] by study and reflection [12:50] by what axioms? [12:50] how so? [12:50] no axioms [12:50] no axioms? [12:50] hhmmm [12:50] not intentionally anyway [12:51] ok...by what method did you come to believe that God is unknowable?...by what reasoning? [12:51] Action: zapp found out that there is the unknown [12:51] thats is a self-refuting belief..."I know for sure that I am UNsure"..?? [12:52] Action: zapp not unsure about this issue [12:52] lol [12:52] lol [12:52] Action: NedFlndrs likes zapp [12:52] you try nice ned [12:52] well...thats my point..... [12:52] ok [12:53] what do you think about evil [12:53] see...to make a claim about what is Known or unknown....we use logic.... [12:53] unknown = undecidable [12:54] and to use logic....you would have to base all the conclussions from your reasoning in the trust of logic...so the question then becomes...how do you justify logic without a logic maker(God) [12:54] if logic is man made.... [12:55] then I may make an logic I like... [12:55] Action: zapp likes neds point [12:55] buff1 (angelfir@30-172.client.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [12:55] But logic is undeniable and unchangeable....... [12:55] logic = hypothesis [12:55] therfore....we havent a choice of its use... [12:55] Logic; The science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference...... [12:55] the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study...... [12:55] a particular method of reasoning or argumentation. [12:55] Logic is the study of right reason or valid inferences and the attending fallacies, formal and informal......Not everything is subject to logic, Only truth claims are subject to logic. Logic is descpriptive, not prescriptive. I n other words.... [12:55] Logic states the way we reason correctly. [12:55] There are four laws of logic, these laws are undeniable, to refute logic, you would have to USE logic. [12:55] 1st Law, The law of non-contradiction, A is not non A. [12:55] No Two contradictory statements can be true at the same time and in the same sense. [12:55] 2nd Law, The law of Identity, A is A. This law states that something is itself. [12:56] 3rd Law, The law of excluded middle, either A or non A. This law excludes any middle alternative between alternatives. [12:56] 4th Law, The law of Rational inference, A=B, B=C, C=A. This law allows inferences to be reached from a series of premises to a conclusion. [12:56] thats what I mean by Logic [12:56] ok ned [12:56] anyways.... [12:56] evil? [12:56] what about it [12:56] :) [12:56] by your defenition..... [12:56] why do we have evil? [12:56] Action: NedFlndrs is evil and good at the same time [12:57] NedFlndrs> No Two contradictory statements can be true at the same time and in the same sense. [12:57] Action: zapp agrees (boring) [12:57] which brakes the 1st law [12:57] lol ned [12:57] [12:58] well zapp...I dont mean to bor you...please livin the party up [12:58] buff1 (angelfir@30-172.client.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [12:58] will you rephrase the question ned? [12:58] can one kill a *real* bad person? [12:58] which question? [12:59] zapp...please explain [12:59] id like to see where yer goin with this [12:59] X...with which one [12:59] is it morally to kill a professional dangerous psychopath? [12:59] what about evil [12:59] zapp...not if you have an OBjective standard [13:00] no ned, but we dont per definition [13:00] how so? [13:00] how so what? [13:00] lol [13:00] lol [13:00] ok...lets start over [13:00] ok [13:01] what I am saying is that to put a person to death for a wrong....is dependandt upon many factors... [13:01] oh ok the ob,sub, jectivity is the premise to be established [13:01] what factors? [13:02] so...if we are relativists....and all morality is subjective...then how could you justify death of another person? [13:02] you couldnt [13:02] no you cant, but we still do [13:02] right... [13:02] explain .. [13:03] exactly...because there is a standard that Objective...and why is that? [13:03] why do we know that Murder is wrong? [13:03] what is that objective standard? [13:04] zapp...the standard is that humans have value...who gives us that value?...we do? [13:04] nope. [13:04] we are and therefore we have value [13:05] we are and therefore we have value????....C mon....cockroaches exist...do they have value as a human? [13:05] cockroaches are not human [13:05] so...why are we so diferent? [13:05] look at what you said [13:05] we are and therefore we have value) [13:05] from cockroaches? [13:05] yes...what makes humans so special? [13:06] what is wrong with the statement? [13:06] its a poor justification for value. [13:06] cockroaches have a diffrent # of chromosomes from humans [13:06] mere existance does not explain why we have value [13:06] zap....so what [13:06] so a diferent DNA makes us special? [13:07] thats gives us value? [13:07] moraly? [13:07] we are all humans, we cant judge objectively what is good or bad and therefore we all have value or not [13:07] zapp...look at what you just said bro [13:07] we all have value or not?? [13:07] Action: zapp likes his dna [13:08] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.FIU.EDU: The Home of Rational Theism [13:08] explain that to me [13:08] we all have value or not?? [13:08] explain what? [13:08] we all have value or not?? [13:08] aaaahhhhhhh shaddup apolobot [13:08] lol [13:08] zapp...so you base value upon a biological diference? [13:08] Action: zapp thinks we all have value but if you want to believe we have not that is allright :) [13:09] biologival differences are reasonably objective [13:09] zapp...I am sayin we do have value...thats not the issue...the issue is WHY do we have value [13:09] because we are all the same more or less [13:09] why are humans so special that we cant randomly kill them at will [13:09] zapp...so what [13:10] we cant kill animals/plants either at will [13:10] zapp...that is not how the other species operate [13:10] zapp...why not [13:10] why shouldnt we [13:10] it is exactly how the other species operate [13:10] zapp...they kill thier won kind alot.... [13:11] won=own [13:11] but they dont exterminate [13:11] yes they do... [13:11] I just sa a dcumentary on it [13:11] intentionally they dont [13:12] well..thats still doesnt explain WHY we have a moral duty...and where it comes from [13:12] we have a moral duty? tell me more [13:12] zapp...are you saying we are just chemicals>??...matter in motion? [13:12] Action: zapp likes matter in motion :) [13:12] zapp...why should we defend the inocent? [13:13] who is innocent? [13:13] zapp...if we are just matter in motion...with no trancendental value...who cares [13:13] yeah ned it sucks doesnt it? [13:13] zapp...people who are killed for fun....would they not be inocent? [13:14] who is killed for fun? [13:14] ohh man [13:14] kewl [13:14] hahahaha [13:14] sorry [13:14] Xinyang (itsasecre@castles59.castles.com) joined #apologetics. [13:14] lol [13:14] your not gettin it are ya? [13:14] hehe [13:15] hohoh [13:15] whats goin on? [13:15] zapp is ~herman@hez.ffl.min.dk * zappzapp on #apologetics #!married_n_flirting #Agape #bbwoasi [13:15] HI :) [13:15] hi xin [13:16] we are tryin to determin that morality is obective [13:16] how ya all doin? [13:16] lol [13:16] great and you? [13:16] fine xin how 'bout you? [13:16] I feel blessed [13:16] go for it xin [13:16] I believe that the world has a relative view on morality [13:16] tell us more xin [13:17] I believe that morals should be absolute [13:17] w2go xin [13:17] i try to keep mine as absolute as i can [13:17] as a human it is not always possible [13:17] but being a christian makes it easier [13:17] for me anywayz [13:17] zapp (herman@hez.ffl.min.dk) left irc: Read error to zapp[hez.ffl.min.dk]: Connection reset by peer [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_5_25_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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