[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/7/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/7/96 [21:37] +lt

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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/7/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 5/7/96 [21:37] killer....so what do you believe about the world??...origin of man...etc? [21:37] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial43.fiu.edu) left irc: Leaving [21:37] Well, I wouldn't say that I necessarily strove to prove that god doesn't exist. [21:38] killer...what would you say? [21:38] lol [21:38] I took most of the propositions out there that god DOES exist, and I concluded that none of them makes sense. [21:38] Message (beta@abc.ksu.ksu.edu) joined #apologetics. [21:38] Killer...how so? [21:38] Therefore, if none of the propositions or beliefs make sense to me, then I am left to conclude that the "god" thing is make believe. [21:39] killer....do you use formal logic at all? [21:39] Killer...how so? [21:39] Also, this implies that the burden of proof does NOT lie in my 'court' (which it doesn't) [21:40] I make no propositions about god... I simply do not believe that a god exists. [21:40] killer...Burden of proof is a fallcy anyways....BOTH have it. :) [21:40] well i gotta go for now.....good night everyone.....God bless you.... [21:40] kiki (dorflum@dynasty.doi.com) left irc: kiki [21:40] byt kiki [21:40] killer..I am asking how you have came to that conclussion?...by what methods of reasoning? [21:40] Burden of proof is not a fallacy... simply put: the person making the claim, must prove his point. I'm not making a claim. [21:41] you claim a god does not exist [21:41] godkiller, are you not making a claim that god does not exist? [21:41] killer...nice...but not true...you have equal burden if you have a counter prop [21:41] My methods partially consist of showing flaws in reasoning and logic in religious points of view. [21:42] Action: NedFlndrs could play that with his paradigm as well [21:42] Killer....can you give me an example? [21:42] And yes, I do propose that there is no God. However, If I claimed that there is a being inside a rock called EBNU, and you didn't believe it... would you have the burden of proof to DISPROVE me? [21:43] There's no way you can prove a negative. [21:43] porve to who? [21:43] killer....only if I would care to justify my prop. [21:43] prove to who [21:43] so the answer is yes. [21:43] All you could successfully do is show flaws in my logic and reasoning. You would Never, ever be able to prove that there is no EBNU. [21:43] Spargel (Mark@friley69.res.iastate.edu) joined #apologetics. [21:44] you can make all sorts of props....but it is logical justification we are after [21:44] By my same reasoning, I will admit that I cannot "prove" that God doesn't exist. But, what I concentrate on is "proving" flaws in religious logic.. like I said. [21:44] killer...not true...I could use all sorts of methods besides logic [21:45] What methods are there to prove propositions besides logic? [21:45] Polymer (estoeben@asm4-1.sl065.cns.vt.edu) joined #apologetics. [21:45] hi [21:45] hi [21:45] ho. [21:46] howdy [21:46] Ned? [21:47] What methods are there which can be used to PROVE propositions... besides logical methods? [21:47] If you count on emotional methods, then I cannot argue with you. Emotional methods are unreliable and logic cannot successfully be waged against a person who relies solely on emotional reasoning. [21:48] bye [21:48] Mas (GWGero@xyplex1-2-6.intersource.com) left #apologetics. [21:49] Polymer (estoeben@asm4-1.sl065.cns.vt.edu) left #apologetics. [21:49] is anyone there? why the sudden stop in comm? [21:50] net lag, perhaps? [21:50] no, I pinged, and at least Ned is there. [21:50] maybe he's on the can? har [21:51] you think he could have at least _said_ so... [21:51] well, ignoring the atheist will not make him go away. [21:52] I have no animosity toward Christians. My very best friend is a devout Christian. [21:52] but if _he_ goes away, then what's the point? [21:52] I think there is always room for good, rational discussion between anyone and everyone. [21:52] killer, have you heard of pascal's wager? [21:52] (I'm the atheist) [21:53] mess: I believe so, please enlighten me. [21:54] Dittos here. I'm not Christian, but I see no reason to look down upon those who are. The ones who scream in my face and try to pass laws saying I can't do this or that I do look down upon - but they're in the distinct minority. [21:54] killer.. says: if there is no god, it doesnt matter if we believe or not, because we will just "wink out" when we die. but if there is a god, and we dont believe, then we are in world of hurt when we die.. so might as well believe [21:54] sparg. I can agree with you, however, they are gaining power.. such as in special interests. [21:55] message: for a very long time, that "Pascal's wager" prevented me from 'crossing over' so to speak into atheism. [21:56] message: for a very long time, I lived in fear of being wrong... of having to face some 'powerful vengeance' after I die. [21:56] killer, and what made you decide to not believe [21:56] *sigh* Unfortunately true. Us being a small minority, I don't think there's a lot we can do about it except wait it out. [21:56] but the more I thought about what I was afraid of... the more I realized how rediculous it all is. [21:57] The Wager didn't for me. Figured that if God's omniscient, he should surely be able to see thru that kind of trick. [21:57] I was being afraid of an unexplainable, undescribable, supernatural, extra-universal entity which could destroy or create at a whim. [21:57] First of all, what I was afraid of (by describing it) was full of contradictions. [21:57] killer i agree. if you are believing just because you are afraid of what might happen if you dont believe, you are not really believing [21:57] besides, if your reasoning and your experience tell you there's nothing to be afraid of, there's nothing to be afraid of, and that's that. [21:57] back [21:58] If something is "unexplainable" ... by putting that label upon it, haven't I "explained" it to an extent? [21:58] Sorry I had to grab the dorr [21:58] errrrr...dorr [21:58] door [21:58] If something is "extra-universal" doesn't that contradict the definition of "universe"? [21:58] killer btw... you were saying about christians who scream in your face about atheism... there are those atheists who torment christians (other religious types also) as well [21:59] well, torment is not my purpose. Discussion is. [21:59] killer mine too. [21:59] it was me who said that - I can't stand those types either. I think everybody's entitled to a little respect. [21:59] godkiller> well, ignoring the atheist will not make him go away.<---------excuse me? [21:59] killer i respect your reasoned approach [22:00] ned: thought you clammed up there for some reason... sorry. [22:00] Action: NedFlndrs ignores nothing [22:00] theology is the best philosophical topic [22:00] Bon (simpsonb@UCS.ORST.EDU) joined #apologetics. [22:00] killer...My axioms are based On formal Logic....coupled with evidentialsim [22:01] ism...I mean [22:01] what, by the way, is an apologetic? [22:01] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( Bon )))))))))))))))))))) [22:01] hiya Ned [22:01] Apologetics;( from the greek word, apologia), The word apologia means..... [22:01] A defense or justification of one's beliefs, attitudes, or actions. [22:01] An Apologetic is the branch of theology that defends the claims of Christianity. [22:01] An apologist is a person who defends an idea, faith, cause, or institution. [22:01] Ned - ???? If your axioms are based on something, anything at all - how are they axioms? [22:01] spargel....LOL [22:02] Getting back to what I was afraid of in my youth: if I was afraid of an all-powerful omnicient being... then my mind and my fear exists in direct contradiction to any purpose of living! [22:02] ned, i wonder where the word apology got its current connotation [22:02] In other words, why would an allpowerful, allknowing creator set me up for failure? [22:03] "i apologize for being a christian" :) [22:03] Eventually, my confidence my "disbelief" led me to drop any fears of eternal retribution. [22:03] killer some believe (i do not) that god choose those he will allow in his fold.. there is nothing the individual can do about it [22:03] Bon (simpsonb@UCS.ORST.EDU) left #apologetics. [22:03] message: that is the idea expressed by all forms of christianity I know. [22:04] Killer....killer....do you have a choice between Good and Bad??...do you have a free-will to do a choice between alternatives? [22:04] in that case, why should God allow the others to be born at all? Doesn't make much sense to me. [22:04] killer most christians i know believe that god welcomes all into his flock, and those who dont believe, etc are "lost sheep"... he waits for them to find their way to him [22:05] killer jesus said that at one point [22:05] Killer....spargel....You both start with a presupposition. A poor one I would have to say. [22:05] spargel no it doesnt [22:05] Petititio Principii; The fallacy of begging the question. [22:05] This fallacy Starts with a pressuposition that has reasserted the conclusion of an argument in the premise. [22:05] So, the argument itself is circular in the sense that it is set up so there is no other conclusion. [22:05] and what presupposition is that, Ned? [22:07] godkiller (really@ppp26.nfinity.com) left irc: Ping timeout for godkiller[ppp26.nfinity.com] [22:08] bbl [22:08] That God...If he exists...is this cosmic trickster...they he has somehow forced you to feel, Or behave a certain way. As well as, that this being would punish those for what he has created... [22:08] Right? [22:08] am I close? [22:08] Mode change '-o NedFlndrs ' by NedFlndrs!dananova@ppp36.snni.com [22:09] *thinks for a minute* [22:09] :) [22:09] Action: NedFlndrs thinks they have the standard objection to the problem of evil [22:10] shrubbery (billdcat@ascend05-38.icanect.net) joined #apologetics. [22:10] Hello Shrubbery [22:11] hello.... [22:11] I wouldn't say it's a _presupposition_, no. The second part is a Christian claim to be evaluated. The first part - no, I don't think God (if he exists) forces me to _feel_ anything. Nor do I force myself to feel anything - it jus t happens. [22:11] hi [22:11] um....i asked someone toping me in the last channel and they kicked me out..... [22:11] Ned and I just started a discussion - wanna join in? [22:12] spargel...then how is a "feeling" a basis for a logical conclussion of a being such as God? [22:12] toping=to ping...... [22:12] hehhee [22:12] so, could someone in here please ping me?...... [22:12] back up a minute. To what "feeling" were you referring? [22:12] I did....... [22:13] I don't think God (if he exists) forces me to _feel_ anything. Nor do I force myself to feel anything - it just happens. [22:13] whats the virdict...? [22:13] was that you or killer that said he felt fear? [22:14] No response yet [22:14] hhmmmm [22:14] does it matter...? [22:14] guess not [22:15] anyways Spargel....have you read any apologetic material in favor of an intelligent designer? [22:15] I think that was killer. I came to the conclusion that if God existed, I'd eventually figure it out and be OK. If he didn't, I'd eventually reach that conclusion and discover that I had nothing to be afraid of. Either way, there' s nothing to fear. [22:15] so, whats a theism....? [22:15] Spargel...how do you explain Mans existance? [22:15] theism=belief in God [22:16] Sure - lots. Which design argument did you have in mind? [22:16] spargel....are you set in your un belief?...Or are you still looking for answers? [22:16] thank you... [22:17] spargel....None...I was wondering what texts.....I am tryin to get a feel for what you have studied [22:17] shrubbery - atheism is disbelief in God's existence [22:17] lol spargel [22:17] so, everybody in here believes in god then...? [22:17] What kind of an explanation are you looking for? The question can be answered on several levels. [22:17] spargels an atheist [22:17] Action: NedFlndrs is a theist [22:18] i'd describe my position as unlikely to change, but still open [22:18] Spargel....any angle..take a shot. [22:18] yeah, i know that one... [22:18] hi! [22:19] what if you dont believe in anything eccept that anythings possible....is there a name for that...? [22:20] shrubbery....Looney? [22:20] lol [22:20] I was teasin [22:20] On one level, man exists because our parents decided to reproduce. On another, man exists because of a long evolutionary process that selected a group of primates for bipedalism and intelligence. On a third, man exists because we haven't managed to kill [22:20] ourselves off yet. [22:20] spargel...how old are you? [22:20] any more than anyone else...? [22:21] spargel....so your an evolutionist? [22:21] sure....snif.... [22:21] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( shrubbery )))))))))))))))))))) [22:22] spargel...can you please define what you mean byman exists because of a long evolutionary process that selected a group of primates for bipedalism and intelligence. [22:22] to answer your earlier question, ned - let's see... Aquinas, Paley, Kant, a few of the more modern apologists whose names escape me at the moment. [22:23] i think that evolution sounds very possible, but how can evolution acount for anything existing in the first place?...the universe...? [22:23] Spargel....I am curious how you justify that enlight of the fossil records...etc etc....how did the apes get there.....that a infinite regress [22:23] thats an...^ [22:24] what _would_ you call that kind of person? A skeptical idealist, perhaps? [22:24] eh? [22:24] 22 [22:24] im just amazed that anything exists at all.... [22:24] 'bout yourself? [22:24] <-------is 30 [22:25] Male....You? [22:25] when was there an age check...? [22:25] scroll up Shrubb [22:25] lol [22:26] ok... [22:26] Action: NedFlndrs thinks he is in lagggggggggg [22:26] darn! [22:26] I wouldn't use that term. Most people who the term fits don't use it. I'm simply a scientist who thinks that evolution is the best scientific theory of origins to date. [22:27] hang on --- one question at a time! ;) [22:27] how do you account for the existance of anything Spargel? [22:28] spargel....I understand the "theory".....I am asking you to explain how it is that you have faith in a fossil record that betrays its own premise.....The stasis...etc [22:29] As a species, man exists because, several million years ago, certain primates which were more intelligent than their neighbors and adapted more of an upright posture did better, reproductively speaking, than their neighbors. Don' t ask me the details - [22:29] biology's not my area of expertise. [22:29] eh..? [22:30] The apes in turn evolved from earlier primates, and so on. [22:30] What time is it where you are? [22:30] are you talking to me..? [22:31] you have some serious lag, man.... [22:31] The fossil records show stasis...that the creatures of any group stay the same....however..."within" the group there may be Micor evolutionary changes...but never a fossil that shows complete morph from fish to bird , dog to ape...ape to man...would there not have to be plenty of mid-morph fossils to show the transition??...Where is that archeological evidence? [22:31] I see that as a meaningless question. If you want to explain something, you have to refer to something that exists, and if it's existence you're trying to explain, there's literally nothing you can point to. [22:32] <---- is 7:30 at his house pm [22:32] What do you see as being wrong with the fossil record? Not that that's the only evidence for evolution, of course. [22:32] afr (arogers@p5.pm2.theriver.com) joined #apologetics. [22:32] If you want to jump in, shrubbery, you're welcome as far as I'm concerned. [22:33] Who? [22:33] are you German Spargel?... [22:33] spargel....for Macro Evolution you would need the hard evidence...unless you claim evolution on a blind faith. [22:34] isnt god blind faith...? [22:34] unless youve seen him....? [22:34] Spargel...is that what your saying?....that you believe in something that lacks evidence ? [22:35] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@serss0.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [22:35] Shrubb...we arent talking of God at this point...Nor have we turned to theology at this point. [22:35] everythink is blind faith unless you are a witness to it...and even that isnt always reliable... [22:36] i know...i was trying to make a point.... [22:36] KAZmira (KAZmira@ts1-11.thecore.com) joined #apologetics. [22:36] spargel...you have a belief in a dogma that you dont know all the "ins and Outs" of? [22:36] evening [22:36] shrubb....well...that would be a red herring [22:36] Red Herring; The fallacy of diverting attention to an extraneous issue rather than providing evidence for the claim. This is a rabbit trail away from the real issue at hand. [22:36] This fallacy deters the argument and trys to win the argument by another unrelated issue. It avoids the original issue all together. [22:36] hello KAZ [22:36] Ho Kaz [22:37] Hi Ned and shrubbery [22:37] You're never going to find one between fish and bird, or dog to ape. They didn't evolve that way. (Although, interestingly enough, dogs and bears are distantly related!) What kind of fossil would you be looking for? One, perhaps, like Archaeopteryx [22:37] which clearly shows both reptilian and avian features? [22:37] what exactly is the issue then...? [22:37] What exactly is apologetics? [22:38] lol...i didnt know what theism was.... [22:38] AegisIII (estoeben@asm4-1.sl065.cns.vt.edu) joined #apologetics. [22:38] hey [22:38] theism..belief in the existance of one God. [22:38] you never answered my question Spargel.. [22:38] spargel...No.....I am asking for fossils that show clear morph and can be used to prove the MACRO evolutionary changes.....the mid state of change from specie to specie [22:39] shrubbery (billdcat@ascend05-38.icanect.net) left #apologetics. [22:39] They ain't none. [22:39] Apologetics;( from the greek word, apologia), The word apologia means..... [22:39] A defense or justification of one's beliefs, attitudes, or actions. [22:39] An Apologetic is the branch of theology that defends the claims of Christianity. [22:39] An apologist is a person who defends an idea, faith, cause, or institution. [22:39] are you still there? [22:39] ned, defends? why? [22:40] sorry, I am just curious. :) [22:40] welp.....spargel...I gotta run bro....can we meet here again?...I would love to finish this.... [22:40] S[argel? [22:40] spargel? [22:41] hello? [22:41] West coast, then. Never been out there. I'm stuck in Iowa, myself. It's been cold and wet all day. :( [22:42] [Spargel PING reply]: 218 secs- [22:43] Gotta run God bless.....I come here often spargel.......Take care....see you soon!!!! [22:43] Action: NedFlndrs (((((((((((((((((((( Spargel )))))))))))))))))))) [22:43] NedFlndrs (dananova@ppp36.snni.com) left irc: I cant, He can, I think I'll let him. :) [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_5_7_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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