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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/21/96 [01:35] _Q_ (serenity@slip170.UCS.ORST.EDU) joined #apologetics. [01:35] <_Q_> hey roy [01:35] <_Q_> you're all alone? [01:36] hello Q [01:36] i was looking up some info on the bot [01:37] <_Q_> were you abandoned by your compariots? [01:37] <_Q_> This channel seems to die a lot earlier than many others. [01:37] lol...i just got here myself :) [01:38] i suppose everyone has to get up for Sunday morn worship services :) [01:38] <_Q_> perhaps [01:38] <_Q_> that doesn't seem to stop them on #christian. [01:38] bitwise (bit@tahoe-d53.foothill.net) joined #apologetics. [01:39] salutations. [01:39] hmmm....i guess they are the nite owls [01:39] greeting bit [01:40] <_Q_> hey bitwise [01:40] any topics being discussed tonight? [01:40] no we just got here bit [01:40] <_Q_> not yet [01:40] <_Q_> what's on your mind, bit? [01:41] this place is usually quite at this time....are you all christians? [01:41] all two of you, that is =) [01:41] Action: roy is christian [01:41] <_Q_> once was, no longer [01:42] hmm..well then...let me ask this... [01:42] <_Q_> are you christian, bit? [01:43] Why did God create laws that could be broken (moral) and laws that could not be broken (say, gravity)? [01:43] Action: bitwise is a christian [01:44] <_Q_> laws is entirely the wrong metaphor, I'd say. [01:44] probably, what do you suggest? [01:45] <_Q_> the principles that govern the interaction of free beings don't seem analogous to those governing elementary particles. [01:46] this seems true, however, it could be said that we are governed by those principles...as in my point about gravity. [01:47] what made you forsake your christianity? [01:48] <_Q_> Those principles don't have obvious application to, say, your decision to log on IRC tonight. [01:48] if I may ask. [01:48] <_Q_> The physical principles, I mean. [01:48] <_Q_> Too many philosophical problems, chiefly the problem of evil. [01:49] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [01:49] explain a little bit. [01:49] the problem of evil, that is [01:51] Action: bitwise stumbles into a lag-mire [01:51] <_Q_> The toleration of intolerable evil by an allegedly perfectly good & loving god. [01:52] <_Q_> Evils which we, lowly creatures, would not tolerate at our best. [01:52] toleration? hmm....would it be more loving to destroy evil completely...right now? [01:53] Q are you an athiest? [01:53] Action: _Q_ is a deist [01:53] explain please [01:54] <_Q_> It isn't a matter of destroying evil altogether, it's a matter of being non-arbitrary about what evils one chooses to eliminate. [01:54] <_Q_> explain deism? [01:55] yes is God perfect in diesm? or is God only a force? [01:56] <_Q_> here's a macro I prepared for #deism... [01:56] <_Q_> Deism is a belief in a loving creator, an ultimate & eternal being, who is omnipresent & omniscient but *not* omnipotent. [01:56] <_Q_> Contrary to popular Christian propaganda, ultimate reality ("god" if you prefer) as conceived by deism is not impersonal at all, merely non-omnipotent, hence non-controlling. [01:56] <_Q_> not a mere force. [01:56] <_Q_> rather perfect love & grace [01:58] if not omnipotent then how do you explain the origin of all creation? [02:01] <_Q_> omnipotence is fine "prior" (logically, at least) to creation; creation nullifies it: kenosis. [02:02] Q this seems nonsensical to me ...why would and attribute of a creator be nullified by his creation (kenosis) [02:02] at creation, omnipotence was nullified? [02:03] if God is eternal then his nature must be eternal also [02:04] Silvern (mburnett@biggulp.callamer.com) joined #apologetics. [02:04] hello [02:05] If God nullified his own attribute of omnipotence knowing what would happen(omniniece) then He would be an evil God wouldnt he? [02:05] Silvern (mburnett@biggulp.callamer.com) left #apologetics. [02:05] Christ manifested a kenosis...and yet he did not loose attributes. explain why creation nullifies omnipotence... [02:06] <_Q_> I see the creator as temporal, albeit everlasting. [02:06] <_Q_> brb [02:07] hmm.. [02:07] where are you from roy? [02:08] mississippi..and yourself? [02:08] Ca. [02:11] <_Q_> why would sacrificing omnipotence affect omniscience & make god evil?? [02:13] Why would he give up His power to control the evil if he knew what would happen...why would he even create in the first place? [02:14] God does not control the evil. [02:14] Same problem exists to me...unless there is another answer [02:15] at least temporarily. Although, He has the power to. [02:16] i know but Q is saying that is why he rejected Xianty...because God doesnt use his power [02:16] ah, yes... [02:16] and we Xians believe God is in control...there are no accidents [02:16] <_Q_> creation is out of love. [02:16] so is freewill [02:16] Q ...do you have children? [02:16] thus, evil [02:16] <_Q_> Freedom is all-or-nothing; real or illusion; there cannot be control and be freedom of creatures. [02:16] <_Q_> However, the xian god allegeedly retains the controlling power but uses it selectively & arbitrarily. [02:16] Action: _Q_ has not reproduced [02:16] Q an example [02:16] If you were going to have children and assuming it was planned [02:16] Do you think 10years down the road the children will commit evil..lie.cheat ect? [02:16] Wouldnt you have them anyway? [02:16] <_Q_> let me say to "we Xians believe God is in control...there are no accidents" -- this is the essence of what I reject in xianity: it is nihilistic. [02:16] explain [02:16] how nihilistic? [02:16] <_Q_> roy: re children I fail to see a real analogy there. [02:17] Action: bitwise has never heard christianity called *nihilistic* [02:17] <_Q_> nihilistic because if there is no real contingency, our actions are meaningless, predicated on illusion. [02:17] <_Q_> bit: It's about time you heard it ;-) [02:17] <_Q_> It's my principle crtiticism of not only xianity but most religions. [02:17] Q: let me try with a different twist (I don't have children) but parents have a measure of control over their children...and yet they are free to make there own choices...even if for rebilion... [02:17] <_Q_> principal, rather. [02:17] procreation of children for a purpose out of love knowing they will commit evil acts is very similar to me logically to God creating his children out of love knowing they will committ evil acts..so? [02:18] <_Q_> The difference is that we would definitely intervene in their lives to prevent intolerable evils. [02:18] so where is the problem? [02:18] <_Q_> The xian god,tho able, does not. [02:18] how so Z [02:18] Q? [02:19] we could not stop them...unless we literally bound them or incapcitated them some way. [02:19] <_Q_> As we should if necessary. [02:19] how do we intervene? [02:19] <_Q_> You must understand the magnitude of evil I'm referrring to here. [02:20] <_Q_> I'm not talking about lying! [02:20] by correction...punishment? [02:20] all evil is evil [02:20] <_Q_> Would you not do whatever was necessary to prevent, say, the holocaust? [02:20] lying is evil [02:20] <_Q_> Kill Hitler, e.g. [02:20] <_Q_> Sorry, some evil is trivial compared to others. [02:21] if God is good ..lying is against His nature..he MUST hate it...and must judge it [02:21] <_Q_> Torture vs lying: you figure it out. [02:21] Hitler was not responsible for the holocaust. [02:21] <_Q_> Judgement & wrath: other human-centered characteristics that have nothing to do with god,IMO. [02:21] would killing one person stop such evils? [02:21] <_Q_> BRB [02:23] Q what makes evil evil? [02:23] what is sin/ [02:24] roy: are there different levels of sin, as Q suggests? [02:24] Ismene (sigh@ joined #apologetics. [02:24] greetings Ismene [02:24] sure but sin is sin...the nature of sin is the same...REBELLION against God [02:25] roy...si is human nature, not rebellion against some higher power. [02:25] Ismene, it is both [02:26] rebellion against higher power(God) = human nature [02:26] bitwise: no...rebellion requires a massing of forces and conflict. Sin is nayure [02:26] We have All sinned and gone astray Romans [02:27] rebels are those who trying to overthrow the kingdom of a Soviegn..hence we are rebels [02:27] I am not trying to overthorw anyone, roy. [02:27] well with such a technical definition, I might concede...none the less, the idea of his point encompasses a form of rebellion. [02:28] you do when you sin [02:28] bitwise: get out your dictionary. [02:28] <_Q_> back in 10 min. if you wish to continue the discussion... [02:29] God says do this...and say i will not have a god to rule over me...hence i WILL do as i please [02:29] Ismene: I do not wish to splice apart words...I agree with your definition...however, rebellion is often used interchangably in our culture to imply what roy is saying...such as the rebellion of a teen ager against his parents... etc. [02:29] its part of our nature to rebel..like our father the devil(unbelievers)...we are his enemies(Romans) [02:30] But the devil is...okay. Now...roy. i do not believe in such a being. [02:30] so, how can a figment of your impagination forc me to rebel? [02:31] there is no forcing, only persuasion. [02:31] a rebellion against the commands of a soveirgn power is the same as rebelling against that power itself [02:32] okay. how can a figment pursuade me if it does not exist [02:32] force...you do it freely and love it...thats the problem...IT IS part of our nature... [02:32] he could not, if he did not exist...but we contend that he does. [02:32] bitwise: yet i contend he doesn't. [02:33] i didnt say the devil made you do ...i said we are of the same nature [02:34] None of us loves God and wants to do his commandments [02:34] we are. all evil, just some of us can control it. [02:34] why did you come to this conclusion, Ismene? and, before I say anymore, I guess I should ask: do you believe in a God? (though rare, I have seen people who believe in one and not the other) [02:34] None is righteous ...NO NOT ONE..romans 3 [02:35] I believe in a God, not your version. [02:35] kcc (kcc@ joined #apologetics. [02:35] hello? [02:35] Do you love God with all your heart, soul and mind Ismene? [02:35] how do you know what my *version* is? [02:35] hey kcc [02:35] Hi.. [02:35] greetings, kcc [02:35] bitwise: the christian god. [02:36] Is this a Christian room? [02:36] by the way you treat me and the questions you ask, it is my logical conclision [02:36] what does Ismenes god look like..what are his attributes? [02:36] hello [02:36] Ismene did you say you believe in the Christian God? [02:37] why isnt fellowship room open? [02:37] roy: no., [02:37] kcc: what are you looking for, friend? [02:37] bitwise: i am not that arrogant to know what my God is specifically like [02:37] what or who are you gods Ismene? [02:37] roy: they are. [02:38] sorry to bother y'all, but does anyone know why fellowship room isnt open? [02:38] are what? [02:38] Ismene: I did not mean it that way at all...I merely was trying to get a grasp on your previous statement about him being *different* than the christian God... [02:38] explain please [02:39] kcc the channel #fellowship? [02:39] I see the christian god as boxy, and therefore my god/s are de-boxed [02:39] so you make your own god up that you like? [02:40] bye all.. [02:40] see ya kcc [02:40] kcc (kcc@ left #apologetics. [02:40] roy: not that [02:40] How does that solve the matter of your sin Ismene? [02:40] your sin must be dealt with [02:40] you do sin dont you? [02:41] roy: no i am infallable [02:41] kidding [02:42] so what about your sin then? [02:42] Action: bitwise notices that this was Ismene's mistake...thus his infallibility exposed =) [02:42] Okay...bitwise. note the "kidding" after it. [02:42] what will your god/gods do about your sin? [02:42] And, bitwise, you need to brush up on your Sophocles [02:42] and note the smile following mine =) [02:43] roy: it is not what they do about it that is important, it is what i do about it. [02:43] kcc (kcc@ joined #apologetics. [02:44] re kcc [02:44] something happened [02:44] You see Ismene THAT is the problem with your paradigm what CAN you do about it? [02:44] what kcc? [02:44] roy: i can improve myself, learn from what i did, and change for the better [02:44] I was given +v then It was taken away and then no one answered me.. [02:44] What about the sins you have already committed? [02:44] roy: what do you mean? [02:44] What can YOU do about those? [02:44] the person took it away from the other person in that room.. [02:44] no one was able to talk.. [02:45] kcc, there is no one on #fellowship tonight. Did you try and msg LadyCarol...she may be away from her computer? [02:46] Ismene the God of the Bible is unlike any god ...no only is He Good and Loving..but foremost He is Holy...sin must be judged [02:46] roy: how can he judge who is eveil and good when he himself has commited evil. [02:46] Ladycarol is the one that gave me +V and then we both lost it.. [02:47] he who is fallable [02:47] if evil makes anysence in this world its only in the christian paradigm..Evil will be judged..every bit of it by a Holy Judge [02:47] roy: that is sheer arrogance [02:47] explain Ismene [02:47] Ismene: explain your comment about God committing evil... [02:47] explain what? [02:48] God committing evil [02:48] well, he did. [02:48] Has God ever lied? [02:48] he brought evil into the world. [02:48] how? [02:48] kcc: he let it happen. [02:49] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [02:49] Ismene show me evidene [02:49] evidence [02:49] how do you know? [02:49] he is omniopotent right? [02:49] What is your scource? [02:50] Action: _Q_ has returned to join forces with Ismene [02:50] yes he is omnipotent [02:50] so? [02:50] Q? [02:50] thanks. [02:50] OKay...now if he is omniopotent, than he has a lot of power right? [02:50] welcome back Q [02:51] yes all powerful [02:51] <_Q_> christians are far too fixated on judgement, IMO. [02:51] so? [02:51] does he know everything. [02:51] kcc (kcc@ left #apologetics. [02:51] Q you were the fixated on evil and how its not being judged:) [02:51] sure [02:52] knoble (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) joined #apologetics. [02:52] Nick change: knoble -> Fermat [02:52] hi [02:52] <_Q_> stopped, not judged. [02:52] I must agree with you Q on that one. However, the reasons should seem clear. [02:52] <_Q_> I'm not interested in punishment, but in doing or permitting no harm. [02:53] bitwise: sheer arrogance? [02:53] <_Q_> yes, all to clear. [02:53] <_Q_> too [02:53] Wolfman (ss@remote201.compusmart.ab.ca) joined #Apologetics. [02:53] merely stopping it?...why not judge Hitler for his deeds as well as stopping Him [02:54] Ismene: no, not at all. [02:54] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) left #apologetics. [02:54] ...just a bit? [02:54] greetings Fermat [02:54] If God is Holy and evil is bad...evil must be judged [02:54] roy: okay, so a God who knows everything knows evil is going to be brought into the world, and lets it happen. No points for cruelty. [02:54] <_Q_> roy: what about grace & forgiveness? [02:54] im sure your not Q [02:54] <_Q_> grace is infinite. [02:54] Q this lets you off the hook for all the evil you do [02:54] greetings, Wolfman [02:54] Do you do evil Q? [02:54] Why do you do it? [02:54] <_Q_> the creator is not concernec with meting out "just deserts." [02:54] Why doesnt your god stop you? [02:54] but be sure God Will judge you for it [02:54] <_Q_> roy: precisely! that is the gospel of grace - we are all let off the hook!! [02:55] <_Q_> my "god" sacrificed control so that there might be love. [02:55] thats right .."the fool says in his heart no God" [02:55] <_Q_> in doing so all manner of evil is risked. [02:55] you God is evil to do that [02:55] <_Q_> It gets down to the ultimate question: is it all worth it? [02:56] and he is not Holy..without sin..if he will not judge it [02:56] If he is righteous he will judge all sin [02:56] Q: do you believe in an afterlife...heaven/hell? [02:56] question is Q you still have the same problem of an "evil" god [02:57] <_Q_> roy: now, like all true xians, you've brought out th ebg guns - threatening me with judgement [02:57] an evil weak god who is not good or holy and apparently doesnt care about the problem of evil [02:57] <_Q_> Afterlife, yes, hell no - it is an abominable doctrine. [02:57] ......Jesus Christ!...I go take a piss and you guys flipped three screens on me.....must be a heavey convo. [02:57] <_Q_> The worst thing xianity gave to the world. [02:58] A Good god= judgement [02:58] okay...do you believe it will be without pain, suffering, sin? [02:58] evil god could care less [02:58] Q: agreed [02:59] <_Q_> love = grace = forgiveness, as in the parables, e.g. the prodigal son. [02:59] Q what about the problem of your evil? [02:59] <_Q_> I don't even understand what you said about an "evil weak god" earlier. [03:00] ....My god is like the size of my bank account....seldom talked about......with a rteturn on interest that can barely keep up with inflation. [03:00] <_Q_> Is my god evil in your eyes? [03:00] scroll back Q [03:00] God can forgive...but he does not "force" change...this is where we need to choose...and thus forgiveness completes the circle. [03:00] yes evil weak and could care a less about evil [03:01] .....anyone here know the latest count on the number of gods in the world.? [03:01] <_Q_> scrolled back... nope - can't see the evil [03:01] roy: evil is weak? [03:01] Wolfman scores two points for a sense of humor... [03:01] <_Q_> wolfman: too many to keep track of ;-) [03:01] Imene a unominipotent god is weak [03:02] <_Q_> the creator has all the power it is logically possible for a good being to hae. [03:02] ......unominipotent?...hmmmmm.... [03:02] Q what about the evil in your world? [03:02] <_Q_> have. [03:02] roy: than does your God qualify as such? [03:02] yes ismene [03:03] <_Q_> roy: evil is the inevitable consequence of a multiplicity of free beings - I already said that. [03:03] Only christainity has the answer to sin [03:03] and evil [03:03] roy: so your god isn't omniopotent? [03:03] Action: _Q_ must briefly adjourn to prepare a steaming cup of caffeinated elixer [03:04] evil is only biological nuerons firing in the brain Q? [03:04] ....does god play dice with the universe?....could it all be one big random cosmic swirl of matter and gas?....or...was Einstein correct? [03:04] Ismene He is omnipotent..but He cant do everything [03:05] Roy...your wrong!.....the Catholics are the only ones that can eleviate sin. [03:05] roy: if he can't do everything, then he is powerless. [03:05] <_Q_> roy: " evil is only biological nuerons firing in the brain, Q?" - we are really on different wavelengths; I don't know where you get these impressions of what I'm saying. [03:05] He cant do anything against illogical or against is own will [03:05] and nature [03:05] <_Q_> " Only christainity has the answer to sin and evil [03:06] <_Q_> sorry [03:06] roy: well, those two are seperate. [03:06] <_Q_> slip of the mouse [03:06] Roy!...your wrong...the Buddhists are the only ones that can eleviate sin. [03:06] He CANT make a circle into a square ..this would be irrational and illogical [03:06] roy: to your mind [03:06] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) joined #apologetics. [03:06] Roy!...your wrong!...the Hindus are the only ones that cn forgive sin. [03:06] roy: but how can you know what a God thinks? [03:06] <_Q_> "Only christainity has the answer to sin" - its answer is to torture ppl forever! [03:06] where is buddha wolf? [03:06] Fermat (knoble@acca.NMSU.Edu) left #apologetics. [03:07] explain torture Q [03:07] <_Q_> Wolfman: there are dice all over the place! [03:07] God cannot lie [03:07] ...Buddha sits across the aisle from your god in the cosmic bus. [03:07] <_Q_> roy: eternal damnation, hell - that's torture by a vindictive "holy" being. [03:07] what is hell all about to you Q? [03:08] <_Q_> wolfman: thanks for injecting a bit of levity ;-) [03:08] blessings to you ppls...I hope we will get a chance to discuss some more. [03:08] bitwise (bit@tahoe-d53.foothill.net) left #apologetics. [03:08] ....peace be with you bitwise. [03:08] i thought you were concerned about the evil in the world Q [03:09] <_Q_> yes, roy, what about it? [03:09] ....there is evil in the world? [03:09] roy: concern for the world has little to do with what religion you are [03:10] Q perhaps God is mad at the evil too [03:10] ......BINGO!...well said Ismene! [03:10] Wolf: thanks :) [03:10] <_Q_> roy: hell is insane, it is everlasting torture, you know that good & well from the bible & traditio. [03:11] insane ..how so Q? [03:11] why is eternal punishment insane? [03:11] <_Q_> if god is perfect, passions & anger do not override its good purposes. [03:11] explain [03:11] <_Q_> good grief! [03:11] roy: because what can one man do that is so evil that is desevers eternal punishmnt? [03:12] Good purposes..what good purposes can evil have? [03:12] <_Q_> I can't "explain" to someone why eternal punishment is insane! [03:12] <_Q_> if you don't see that, you're in another world. [03:12] IF God is perfect then he must by nature hate all evil [03:12] roy: byt its not. [03:12] <_Q_> who said evil has "good purposes"? [03:12] but, even [03:13] if you cant explain then perhaps there is no evidence for your statement [03:13] you did Q [03:14] anger overide his good purposes [03:14] <_Q_> fine, as you wish, go on believing in perfectly reasonable eternal punishment. [03:14] Ismene...i would rather follow someone with half a wit and a truckfull of common sense to eleviate evil from this world....than some half-baked brain washed "holier than thou" hypocritical soot hsayer......I am sure you would agree. [03:15] ....anyone here study Plato?.. [03:17] _Q_ (serenity@slip170.UCS.ORST.EDU) got netsplit. [03:17] W (cservice@undernet.org) got netsplit. 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