[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/20/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/20/96 [12:16] U
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/20/96
#apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/20/96
[12:16] Urantian (email@example.com)
[12:17] hullo urantian
[12:17] cool =)
[12:17] nah, it didnt bore me to death. truthfully,
i havent gotten through mch of it, becase of school
[12:17] sylvre thats ok
[12:17] urantian whats up?
[12:18] syl did u guys get back too late to
cal that night or somethng?
[12:18] not very much just seeing whats
online this morning
[12:19] urantian I take it you are connected
in some waywith the Uranta book?
[12:19] Acolyte; yeah.. we did. it was prretty
late, and like i said, i was really irritated that
night when i went out with them, and then i came back
here and honestly forgot about calling you... i went
straight to bed.
[12:19] sylvre I am sorry
[12:19] sylvre is she giving u a hard time
[12:20] aclyte; no, im sorry. i should have
left you email or something.
[12:20] I am curious about the meaninin of
[12:20] acolyte; no...
[12:21] Urantian apoilogetics comes from the
greek word Apologia, which means defense or reason
for, this channel generally deals with a rational defence
for Orthodox Christian Theism
[12:22] Urantian, so does your nick indicate
any connection with the Uranta book or something elese?
[12:22] Uranta apologetics is an area of theology
[12:23] it does
[12:23] I am a reader of the Urantia Book
[12:23] and the bible
[12:23] ic, why?
[12:23] Urantian why do you read the Uranta
[12:23] well, sorry so quiet but I have to
go now. Maybe later tonight or something. God bless.
One of these days, I will be able to get into a real
discussion here. :)
[12:24] later Rev
[12:24] I find great spiritual truths in it
I believe it to be what it claims
[12:24] RevWillie (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[12:24] Uranta and what criteria do u use to
know if something is true or false?
[12:24] my heart and the indwelling spirit
of the creator that speaks to me
[12:25] and how would you know when your heart
[12:25] or is your heart always correct in
[12:26] so because it is intuitive that makes
[12:26] like all I have been wrong
I keep an open mind and heart
[12:26] Urantian please elaborate
[12:26] so your heart can be mistaken?
[12:26] I claim to have no answers for anyone
else we are all on different paths but must ultimately
go thru Christ to reach the creator my belief
[12:27] who is Christ?
[12:27] what is christ?
[12:27] Jesus the creator Son of God
[12:27] urantian obviously it is yor believe,
you said it, I am just wondering how one would know
if it is true or false is all
[12:28] Urantia so you think thatJesus is a
Son of God or is God the Son?
[12:28] and to me the christ is the spirit
that was bestowed to all who will open to it when Jesus
[12:28] seems rather Docetistic
[12:28] because what I have found in my relationship
with the creator is experiential for me
[12:29] urantia your interpretatin of your
expereince can be erronous tho as can you expereince
[12:29] Jesus is son of God a creator son
[12:29] uranta what do you mean a "Creator son"??
[12:29] Urantia is Jesus God?
[12:29] Son of God created our universe
[12:30] Urantia is Jesus the only true God?
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[12:31] hullo greay2
[12:31] only one god the creator of all
Jesus was his son a creator son and our creator
[12:31] to me
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[12:31] urantia so he is not the only True
[12:31] hullo yonick
[12:31] he is a son of God
[12:32] Hi apologetics
[12:32] many creators all answering to one
[12:32] uranta but u don't think he is God
[12:32] uranta then u are not Trinitarian
I take it.
[12:32] the son of God
[12:32] the wayshower
[12:32] Urantaian, he is not the wayshower,
he is the Way
[12:32] I am a Chritian
[12:32] r u?
[12:33] what makes u a Christian?
[12:33] Jesus not only shows you the way, but
he is himself THE way..
[12:33] my relationship with the creator and
my relationship with Christ his son
[12:33] Urantian, doesn't make a christian
[12:33] and the desire to do the Father's will
[12:34] since each persons relationship with
the creator is personal and internal
[12:34] urantian any cultist can claim as much,
that is too ambigous to make one a Christian
[12:34] it is not possible for another to
know or judge what is in ones heart
[12:34] that is between the creator and the
[12:34] I am not judging your heart, just what
[12:35] our mouths can only interpret to others
what is truly in our hearts
[12:35] agree yonick
[12:35] Only God knows what is in our hearts
[12:35] each persons experience with God is
[12:36] uranta if you deny central christian
doctrines such as the Trinity, how can u be a christian?
[12:36] God has given us free will to be creators
of our unique experience with him
[12:36] why do many christians feel it is
necessary for others to accept their dogma or interpretation
before they can be accepted in the kingdom
[12:36] Urantian, Jesus is God the Son, he
is the second PErson of the Holy Tirnity, he is Co-eternal
with the Father and the Spirit
[12:37] Urantian, no that is what the CHurch
says, whcih is the pillar and ground of the truth
[12:37] Urantia the CHurch is the messanger
[12:37] the church has often distorted the
message of god
[12:37] What about all the other religion's
dogma that feel the same as you--Moslem Budda etc
[12:38] Uranta Jesus said that the Church would
be giuded into all truth hence either you are wrong
or Jesus is wrong, which is it?
[12:38] Yonick what about them?
[12:38] Could there be a sliver of truth in
all of them--that is the connecting bridge betwen us
[12:38] yonick then Jesus was a liar then,
he said he was the only way. Did he lie?
[12:39] I happen to believe in God the Father,
God the Eternal Son and God the Infinite Spirit
[12:39] you can't judge whether I am wrong
or not Ac that is the creators business
[12:39] yonick thats nice, so?
[12:39] Uranta oh but the BIble tells me to
judge your doctrine
[12:39] But it is not my place to judge anyone
else religious beliefs
[12:39] uranta and as far as I am concerned
that is the Word of the creator
[12:39] yonick ic, I disagree
[12:39] I am getting a very clear understanding
of what Apologetics is about and appreciate you sharing
[12:40] urnatia ok
[12:40] That is the problem with traditional
Christianity--it verges on a false religion because
of the dogma of the bible
[12:40] The Bible is the four apostles and Pauls
intereptation of what Jesus taught
[12:41] urantian, it seems that the Uranta
book, like other modern New Age works has mislead you
to the True Apostolic meaning of Christianity, It is
Gnostic and Docetistic to the Core. I suggest you read
some of what the early Christian
s taught about the CHirst..
[12:41] they knew
[12:41] It formed a religion about Jesus not
a religion of Jesus
[12:41] yonick the Bible is the OT and the
[12:41] Have you read the Urantia Book Acolyte?
[12:41] yonick funny, his disciples didn't
[12:41] Uranta I have read some of it, enough
to know it is Docestistic and Gnostic
[12:41] I have read it and th bible and
don't feel mislead at all
[12:41] If Jesus came back today many of the
so called born again chritians would assasinate him
[12:42] Uranta you don't FEEL, that s the catch
[12:42] They are the modern day SAduccees and
[12:42] you have read enough to make that
[12:42] Yonick they would? I am not a Fundamentalist,
[12:42] Uranta if it denies that CHrist was
in the flesh God incarnate, its false
[12:42] you don't know my heart Ac nor
[12:42] Uranta I am judging your doctrine,
not your heart, big difference
[12:42] I am led to believe we should look
for the best in what others believe not judge what
we don't agree wiht
[12:43] I am about spiritual progression
[12:43] I see your dogma and doctrine on my
[12:43] Urantia I am taught to seek the truth
wherever it maybe found
[12:43] urantia ic
[12:43] and those I know who read the UB are
engaged in the same thing
[12:43] Uranta truth is more important to me
than how I feel
[12:43] uranta thats nice
[12:43] when you sacrifice truth for the sake
of unity, you get spiritual disaster, not progression.
[12:43] The spirit of truth tells me what is
truth and what is false beliefs
[12:44] Uranta I am involved in the spiritual
life and mystical expereinces as well, but I do not
believe just anything just because I FEEL it or LIKE
[12:44] yonick God gave u a brain, don't rely
on liuver shivers to tell you what is true
[12:44] Yet my tolerance and love for my brothers
and sisters of this backward planet accepts your belief
[12:45] nor do I AC
[12:45] Our brain is only the physical thing
it is our borrowed mind that makes a difference
[12:45] yonik no it is logic that makes a difference
[12:45] agree yonick
[12:46] I will see you all after death and
we can debate this some more!
[12:46] is is necessary to accept the literal
interpretation of the bible to be a Christian?
[12:46] Yonick there will be a great chasm
between us I fear
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[12:47] jhello brother
[12:47] Urantian it is necessary to think that
what the bible says is true,not necessariuly always
literal or physical
[12:47] are you still there
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[12:47] Deanr (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[12:47] brb call
[12:47] hey deanr
[12:47] hey doogie
[12:48] Action: doogie is bjored.
[12:48] Mode change '+o Deanr ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[12:48] Mode change '+o sylvrefox ' by ApoloBotemail@example.com
[12:48] hey all
[12:48] hey doogie, lets go ot and do something.
[12:48] Urantai Jessus said that the Scripture
could not be broken, was Jesus incorrect?
[12:48] sylvre: Okie. :^) What to do, though?
[12:49] gotta run nice to meet you all thanks
[12:49] Topic changed by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org:
The Home of Rational Theism
[12:49] Uranta ok
[12:49] i dont know... =) take a walk. =)
[12:49] Jesus did not write the scriptures
[12:49] go on a picnic.
[12:49] new test. written after his death
[12:49] Urantia no but he said they were true,
was he aliar?
[12:49] sylvre: Sounds good to me. Uhm. Wanna
pick me up, or should I walk to your place? ;^)
[12:49] I have to go will come back sometime
thanks for sharing
[12:49] doogie; ill pick yo up.. =)
[12:49] Urantai the Gospels recored his sayings,
did he lie?
[12:49] Uranta ok later
[12:50] sylvre: Coolio. :^)
[12:50] Urantian (email@example.com)
[14:50] Owen...are you are so quiet because?
[14:50] well, I'm interested in religious discussion
as a whole, but don't beleive that the apocolypse described
in the bible has any relevence
[14:51] Acolyte: Chilton's book was an application
of Jordan's "Interpretive Maximalism" to some materials
he had picked up from Bahnsen when the latter taught
a verse-by-verse on Revelation.
[14:51] Bahnsen points out the the "I.M." hermeneutic,
rather than yielding surplus value, undermines clarity
[14:51] What does have relevence to you Owen??
[14:51] Owen: Well, though we are interested
in the apocalypse, we are not limited to it. We find
the broad issues important, too. :)
[14:52] alcuin you mean it undermines bahnsen's
theology, which is what it translates to
[14:52] What is truth in your book, Owen?
[14:52] Alcuin well I prefer Jordan and Sutton
over Bahnsen and North anyhow
[14:52] yes....that's great owen....Jesus is
the Truth, the Life and the Way.... Praise God
[14:52] Acolyte: I mean what?
[14:52] Alcuin so I prefer Chilton's methodology
over bahnsen's presbyterian hermenutic
[14:52] Acolyte: "Bahnsen and North" is a strange
grouping anyhow. The strongly disagreed, chiefly over
Sutton and Jordan!
[14:53] oh brother!!!
[14:53] newsong: there we part company, i don't
believe that jesus is "truth"
[14:53] Alcuin sure but their exegesis is more
Protestant than Catholic, as oppsed to Jordan and Sutton
[14:53] really....interesting thing about the
name of Jesus.....
[14:53] Acolyte: Chilton's methodology is stream-of-consciousness.
Anything goes. Hardly a hermeneutic, as far as I
can tell. :)
[14:54] so...owen...you are in the system of
[14:54] I really beg to differ,it is hardly
stream of consciousness. He connects patterns in biblicla
thought for one
[14:54] don't believe I'm in any system
[14:55] owen hardee har har
[14:56] Connects patterns? I'd say he stipulates
patterns. He doesn't provide a mechanism for distinguishing
the stipulations from actual exegesis.
[14:56] you are either in Jesus....or you are
not.....that is the illumination about the name of
[14:56] Owen: Not in any system? That sounds
somewhat like Descartes's method of doubt. Does that
sort of thing click with you?
[14:57] Acolyte: Some other time, we might perhaps
discuss hermeneutics in a systematic way. We'd probably
both benefit from that.
[14:57] in the mean time......
[14:57] Owen...here...needs to be snatched
from the fire
[14:57] Owen: Well, I'm intrigued by your search
[14:57] Owen: If you truly have no system, then
how will you know truth when you find it? What will
you test it by, to see whether it's truth?
[14:57] there is a haunting familiarity about
all this, classifications,titles, pigeonholes, lables
[14:58] Owen....that is why the name of Jesus
is so powerful.....because His names dispells preconceived
[14:58] as far as a system of thought, I believe
in simplicity "prove it"
[14:58] Owen: Yes, those are awful things, aren't
they? I certainly don't want anyone confining my freedom
by means of labels and pigeonholes and nicely tied-up
[14:59] Owen: What is the standard of proof
by which you evaluate someone's effort to "prove it"?
[14:59] Action: Alcuin tells Owen a parable
[14:59] Owen: Let's say you are given a mango-sorting
[14:59] Owen: It sorts the good mangos from
the bad mangos.
[15:00] Owen: (Do you like mangos?)
[15:00] not partcularly
[15:00] alcuin I am sure St paul gave such
a pattern whenhe symbolically interpreted the ot in
Gala 4. yeah sure he did. :P~
[15:00] Action: Alcuin waits to find out Owen's fruit-preference,
[15:00] Lady-Lora (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined #apologetics.
[15:00] Acolyte: If he didn't, we're all in
[15:00] I'm fond of custard apples
[15:01] Acolyte (email@example.com) left
[15:01] Owen: Someone points to this shiny machine
and tells you it sorts apples.
[15:01] Lady-Lora (firstname.lastname@example.org) left #apologetics.
[15:01] Owen: Then you dump a bunch of unsorted
apples into the top, and they come pouring out of chutes,
some to the left, and some to the right.
[15:01] Owen: Now, your goal is to tell whether
the machine worked right.
[15:02] Owen: So you look at the two groups
[15:02] Owen: But you can't tell whether the
machine sorted the good from the bad unless you have
*some other means* of determining good apples from
[15:02] Owen: But the machine itself is what
is supposed to do that.
[15:03] Owen: Likewise with truth. You can't
tell whether some "proof" or other has worked, unless
you have an independent means of verifying its output.
[15:03] that is the facility of your 'system'....proof....there
is plenty of evidence of who Jesus is....but to approach
God...we must come by faith
[15:04] Owen: So, it's puzzling that you want
proof, and that you seek truth, but that you have no
system. Sounds like you're in a kind of bind, if that's
all true. Don'tcha think so?
[15:04] well lets take a look at your parable,
if I examine how the machine is put together, i could
probably determine whether its is capable of picking
the good from the bad (as an engineeri could do that)
[15:04] Action: Alcuin takes a bite of custard apples,
made from freshly sorted, good apples.
[15:05] Owen: An engineer can only analyze the
efficacy of a machine if he know what it's supposed
to do *and* *how* the machine is supposed to do it.
[15:05] You have the what, but not the how.
[15:05] if i see no evidense that there is an
electronic or mechanical methdology for sorting apples,
i would surmiose thart it is a fraud
[15:06] Owen.....what is the proof that you
are *real* as opposed to *bot*
[15:06] i'm having an arthritic day, excuse the
[15:07] Owen: No problem with the spelling.
If you look at the mechanism, you must already know
what it takes to sort good from bad apples, in order
to tell whether the mechanism will do that.
[15:07] Owen: But if you know this, then you
*do* have some kind of system after all.
[15:07] simple,bots cannot argue, at least at
[15:08] Owen: I have to go, now. Real Life
beckons. However, I'd encourage you to think about
how you personally would be able to tell whether you're
in the presence of "a proof" or of "truth" apart from having
some knowledge of what such a thing would look like.
I wish you well in that pursuit.
[15:08] Bye, newsong!
[15:09] Alcuin (email@example.com)
[16:55] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[16:55] Owne what is this grad hypothesis of
[16:55] grand even
[16:55] Joshua ben Joseph....right...which
is to say...(greek) Jesus the son of Joseph who lived
[16:55] Mode change '+o creation ' by ApoloBotemail@example.com
[16:56] arabic is Iben=son of
[16:56] Owen: So, there was no Jew named
[16:56] Not suprising, there both Smitic languiages
[16:57] Owen what is your claim specifically?