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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/18/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/18/96 [18:25] ApoloBot joined #Apologetics. [18:25] Mode change '+o ApoloBot ' by W!cservice@undernet.org [18:25] Rather long story, but essentially I found contradictions I could no longer ignore. [18:25] The problem of evil is probably the biggest stumbling stone. [18:25] "Decides?" Quest..i wasnt aware one decided to become a Xian ..so how does one undecide? [18:26] Topic changed by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: The Home of Rational Theism [18:26] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial88.fiu.edu) joined #apologetics. [18:26] Usually, in the protestant tradition anyway, one does decide to be a christian. One accepts Christ. [18:26] That is a decision in my book. [18:26] Greetings ProfG [18:26] hiya :-) [18:26] Hey ProfG [18:27] Roy: What do you mean, "i wasnt aware one decided to become a Xian"? [18:27] hi prof [18:27] Not in historical protestantism quest..one only has a change of mind and heart after one has been regenerated..cause and effect [18:29] petal (hr567.cle@192.215.14.82) joined #Apologetics. [18:29] I cant 'decide" to love the God whom i hate and hate the sin i love quest..i have no power to do that [18:30] hello Prof [18:30] Ah...I agree with that-man cannot choose God? [18:31] Questian (serenity@slip21.UCS.ORST.EDU) left irc: Ping timeout for Questian[slip21.UCS.ORST.EDU] [18:31] petal (hr567.cle@192.215.14.82) left #Apologetics. [18:33] MrBell (Micah@ppp-302.ihug.co.nz) left #apologetics. [18:34] Questian (serenity@slip6.UCS.ORST.EDU) joined #apologetics. [18:34] got disconnected again :-< [18:36] hello? [18:36] hi quest [18:36] hi! [18:36] So Roy, I'm afraid I never did understand your point about conversion. [18:37] what was yer prob with evil? [18:37] Didn't much like it [18:37] ;-) [18:37] its origin? [18:37] who does [18:37] Yes, its continued tolerance by benevolent deity, etc [18:37] The usual suspects [18:37] evil sucks [18:38] But it continues for inscrutable reasons. [18:38] yeah, sucks, heh heh [18:38] According to orthodoxy. [18:38] hehehe sorry; ) [18:39] without it would its oppisit exist? [18:39] in 3d [18:39] to us? [18:40] i dunno, likei sed im new [18:40] it sems imperitive to me tho [18:41] hello? [18:41] I don't know that we needed the Holocaust to appreciate love & goodness. [18:41] quest you were saying you "decided" not to be a Xian anymore..i making the point the one does not "decide" to become one ..that is only an effect from the the initial cause of regeneration [18:42] it still doesnt seem that we as a whole do appreciate it [18:42] In any case, for me it is pretty concrete: for any instance of intolerable, unredeemable evil, if there is someone standing by able to prevent it who elects not to do so, then that person or being is not what I mean by good. [18:42] or we woulnt create holocaust [18:42] Roy: you seem to be saying that God causes us to be saved or not saved by his/her whim; a sort of fatalism. [18:43] Which raises its own variant of the prob of evil [18:43] how do you decide what is good or bad, Questian? [18:43] Bad is causing harm to other beings; good is giving them love or service. [18:43] what would we be without evil? [18:43] X: good? [18:44] why is causing harm to other beings bad? why is giving them "love" or "service" good? [18:44] i kinda thought individual conciousness depended on it to be [18:45] there is no good without evil is there [18:45] fatalism or purpose Quest?.. Could it be God really completely and intirely saves helpless,depraved sinners acccording to His purpose and not our willy nilly impotent "decisions" [18:45] thats like wet without dry [18:45] without its counterpart it loses its meaning ...its self [18:46] i think [18:46] Action: Xpressor is no expert .. [18:47] Action: Xpressor is just a guy who thinks stuff ....sometimes [18:47] ProfG; all: I was sorry away for a moment [18:48] Prof: is it not self-evident that harm is bad? [18:48] There have to be first principles, or else we may as well debate solipsism! [18:48] wassat? [18:49] Questian: yes, there must be first principles... but who says your first principles are correct? [18:49] can you prove it? [18:49] solipsism? [18:49] I do? [18:49] Who says yours are correct, ProfG? [18:49] yea [18:49] If you say God, how do you know God speaks to you, how do you know bible is inspired, etc, etc. [18:50] You get the idea. [18:50] The Bible does, Questian. That is my paradigm, and it is self-supportive. Can you make a claim as to why your paradigm is not self-contradictory? How can you prove something like logic? [18:51] Roy: I don't see any point in believing we're puppets of God. [18:51] It removes all accountability from us - & spare me the potter/clay metaphor, BTW. [18:52] Prof: let me get this str8: you're claiming the bible is a non-problematic starting point, but logic isn't? Huh? [18:52] Biblical theism allows for the use of logic. how does your paradigm? [18:53] You can pick paradigms out of a hat for all I care, but I sure don't see where you can claim superiority to a muslim citing the Koran. [18:53] Quest not puppets...you said your "deciding" to be a Xian is protestant belief..i just dont agree with that statement..one no more can decide to become a xian than one can change his own heart..i cannot love that which i hate and hate that which i love [18:53] I happen to be a deist, Prof, so I think logic goes the heart of reality, as does love, but I'm not sure it's necessary to cite the creator. [18:53] Quest: because I can show self-contradictions within Islam. There are none within Biblical Christianity [18:54] prove the existance of logic, Quest [18:54] How can any discussion get started w/out presupposing logic? Presuppositions are crucial to examine. [18:54] What I jsut said - it's a given - or else we can be quiet right now. [18:54] yes they are. plz examine yours. you presuppose logic, but you show no reason why you should presuppose logic. [18:55] Prof: I'll ignore your stupendous claim about lack of contradiction for now. [18:55] I'll bet you will. [18:56] Because I *cannot* live w/out presupposing it - nor can you nor anyone - hence my earlier reference to solipsism. [18:57] that's right, you cannot, but what *basis* do you give for such a presupposition? *Where* does logic come from? [18:57] without a creator there is no reason to believe there is any truth at all.. one cannot presupose logic in an arguement to determin its validity [18:57] How does one need a *basis* for a necessary presupposition?? It's properly basic, that's all. [18:58] but it must be a *rational* presupposition; one cannot just presuppose *anything* [18:58] X: one cannot even begin to "argue" the valildity of logic - think about it, and read CS Lewis while you're at it. He understood that, at least. [18:58] Quest: you say you are a deist; can you tell me why you believe this way? [18:59] Quest: YES, logic is valid. But not outside of a Biblical theistic paradigm. [18:59] One must presuppose what is literally essential to life, what is literally inescapable, words to the contrary notwithstanding. [18:59] Logic is preeminent among such things. [18:59] one can that believes that it comes from god [19:00] you SAY it is essential. PROVE it, without using what you are trying to prove. [19:01] ProfG: you might visit my growing deism website (http://www.orst.edu/~collets/deism.html) for more details, but suffice it that I found naturalism wanting in explaining various facets of existence, & found theism contradicto ry. [19:01] X: one can believe that logic is rooted in god, but it isn't & can't be necessary to a discussion. [19:01] to believe in the source I mean. [19:02] Questian: you might visit the #apologetics growing website (http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html) for info, links, and *especially* the channel debate/discussion logs [19:02] ProfG: you are asking for the logically impossible. " PROVE it, without using what you are trying to prove" - when the "it" is logic - this is nonsense. [19:03] I could just as easily ask you what you gain by telling me god "made" logic - it doesn't justify logic as if logic could be doubted otherwise. [19:03] it IS nonsensical, when one insists that logic can exist apart from the God of the Bible [19:04] Well, I can't seem to escape this feeling of circular futility with you, Prof, with all due respect. [19:04] Oh that verse really cleared things up. [19:04] just wanted to see it :-) [19:04] saw a bumper sticker with it on it today [19:05] "NATIONAL ATHEIST'S DAY: April 1" [19:05] heheheh [19:05] Plenty of christians are guilty of "abominable iniquity" as you well know. Doesn't seem germane, but it's OK if you like seeing it. [19:05] Action: Questian laughs [19:05] I guess that's as good a date as any if they are fools [19:06] so explain to me why you claim "deism" as your paradigm [19:06] Anselm, the namesake of my alternate nick, made a lot out of the verse "the fool has said in his heart there is no god" as you know. [19:06] a regular op here often uses the nick of St_Anselm [19:07] or St_Aidan [19:07] ProfG: I see you dropped in on #deism. [19:07] or Acolyte [19:07] Yes, I know all too well :-< [19:07] Ppl kept confusing me w/ him for a while & it made me somewhat unpopular [19:07] I guessed you'd be ther [19:07] e [19:07] good guess, huh [19:07] He is not universally liked, you know ;-) [19:08] clever man, yes. [19:08] lol [19:08] rotfl [19:08] I'll bet [19:08] he is one of our best ;-> [19:08] I had to put "I am not Acolyte" in my whois for a while! [19:09] lol [19:09] The problem was that I was hanging out on #atheism a lot. [19:09] But I've moved on to other channels now. [19:10] I don't doubt they confused you with their worst nightmare [19:10] Action: Questian laughs [19:10] Acolyte that is [19:10] I guess so [19:10] Roy-- (Rooster@205.218.167.51) left irc: gotta go [19:10] A couple ppl were really hard on me- too much so & too hastily,it's one thing that soured me on atheism - the channel I mean. [19:11] heh [19:11] I hang on #holysmoke a lot now, besides maintaining the existence of #deism, of course. [19:11] I'm a couple of email/nick backers shy of getting deism registered. [19:11] ah [19:12] As for your question about deism, it's a bit long to go into since I need to leave shortly. [19:12] I understand [19:12] please return sometime so that we may discuss it [19:12] I've visited your web page, BTW> [19:12] I am interested, as I once claimed that paradigm for myself [19:12] I shall be back occasionally. [19:12] Oh, really? [19:12] I hope you enjoyed your visit to the WWW site :-) [19:13] So what was the sequence for you? Were you raised religiously? [19:13] Yes, I liked your site. [19:13] Have you made any changes in recent weeks? [19:13] I was raised "religiously" but not as a Christian [19:13] well guys thanx for the ride !!! but i gotta go to my kids teachers meetings G'blessprof and... uhhh... good luck question [19:13] So you embraced deism as an adult? [19:13] Xpressor (kgb@slip2.worldaxes.com) left irc: Read error to Xpressor[slip2.worldaxes.com]: Connection reset by peer [19:13] Bye Xpressor. [19:14] Changed the People page, and converted the logs to html [19:14] He thinks I require luck? Perhaps because I'm no longer a Christian. [19:14] What is your URL (my bookmarks are all messed up)? [19:15] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [19:15] thanks [19:16] ApoloBot has the URL in its /whois [19:16] Oh, good [19:16] So you created &/or control ApoloBot? [19:17] heheheh [19:17] Action: Questian laughs [19:17] I run ApoloBot [19:17] created by some #Bible ops [19:17] I have been an op on #Bible for forever [19:17] When you say you were a deist, do you mean the prevalent notion that the creator is fairly indifferent to creation? [19:17] heh [19:18] You're in your 30s, may I ask? [19:18] roughly speaking, yes [19:18] yes [19:18] I see you have a nice animated gif on your page now. [19:18] heh, lifted it from the IRS ;-> [19:19] I was a "Jeffersonian" deist [19:19] cool [19:19] Well, Jeff didn't think god is indifferent, AFAIK [19:20] Action: Questian is wondering why Alcuin is so secretive [19:20] heheheh [19:20] I know it's Yale, what's the big deal? [19:20] he simply prefers to keep his online presence limited to IRC [19:20] Is somebody stalking this guy or what? [19:20] I'm just curious, I'm not criticizing. [19:21] I observe that ppl have widely varying levels of concern for privacy online. [19:21] no, he's just that way. I know him, and I understand. [19:21] I've got a phone call gotta go [19:21] God bless, we'll talk later [19:21] Me too bye [19:21] OK [19:21] ProfG (wgreen01@fiudial88.fiu.edu) left irc: Leaving [19:21] Questian (serenity@slip6.UCS.ORST.EDU) left #apologetics. [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_4_18_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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