[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 2/23/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 2/23/96 [16:52] Aco

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[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 2/23/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 2/23/96 [16:52] Acolyte (st_aidan@199.171.190.3) joined #apologetics. [16:52] qaz (qaz@hh-labmac2.csh.uiuc.edu) joined #apologetics. [16:52] I would like to discuss such issues. [16:53] pascoe (pasc8891@xslip32.csrv.uidaho.edu) joined #apologetics. [16:53] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [16:53] sure. [16:53] hopefully he will get the point [16:53] hmm [16:54] Why isnt debate allowed there? [16:54] pascoe whats he doing? [16:54] just sittin' there. 8) [16:54] qaz channel rules, Don't ask me, I did not make them [16:54] cool! [16:54] understood. [16:54] pascoe if he argues kick himover here [16:55] qaz qhats on your mind? [16:55] qaz: debate is allowed but it has to be about biblical content. even fellowship is allowed. but there is a priority structure for the conversations in #bible. [16:55] qaz Apologetics is my channel so things a are a TAD bit different [16:55] About the "our" in the scripture.. [16:56] and the 'we' and other plural references to God. [16:56] what about them? [16:56] 'It exists in the Quraan, in the Bible, and in the Torah, etc. [16:56] quz it is not always plural [16:56] Point taken [16:56] But when it is... [16:56] the word Elohim or El can mean gods, God or goddesses [16:57] depends onthe context [16:57] and syntax [16:57] It is used as a term of repect, NOT literall as refering to more than one entity. [16:57] That is how it works in Hebrew, Arabic, and such languages. [16:58] Elysium (clayton@XMAN.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU) joined #apologetics. [16:58] qaz it is pluarlity of glory, not necessarily one of being [16:58] oh whatfun [16:58] look who it is [16:58] When translated into English, I can see how people might take it to mean as if it weere reffereing to more than one god. [16:58] Action: Elysium extends the right fist of fellowship to acolyte. [16:58] Elysium!clayton@XMAN.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU kicked by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: POW [16:58] hehe [16:59] Elysium (clayton@XMAN.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU) joined #apologetics. [16:59] ][XQUS (mondar@cs1-16.sun.ptd.net) joined #apologetics. [16:59] Early translators: WHo can this we be reffering to? God, and...? Maybe Jesus? YES! and who else...? Holy Spirit? YES. THAT MUST BE IT. ! This is flawed reasoning.... [16:59] qaz that is not the reason at all [16:59] I've had some interesting conversations about mind; you know, even though you disagree on the existence of god, there's a lot you and objectivists have in common acolyte. [16:59] qaz what religion r u? [17:00] And not something which somany christioans should blindly believe in or try so hard to prove (Im trying not to offend you too much) [17:00] Elysium, to some degree. Ayn Rand is weak tho [17:00] qaz what religion r u? [17:00] I disagree with all forms of mysticism; even atheistic mysticism. [17:00] muslim (CAENrufou@ibm580.ensicaen.ismra.fr) joined #apologetics. [17:00] I am a Muslim. Maybe thats why I am objectivistic. [17:00] Replacing god with "objective morality" wont do. [17:00] <][XQUS> ahhh, welcome muslim [17:01] salaa, ya muslim [17:01] Salaam! and peace! [17:01] elysium please excuse me for now [17:01] <][XQUS> shalom muslim [17:01] man those people cant even rationally discuss.. [17:01] <][XQUS> :) [17:01] elysium we can discus this later [17:01] The easiest way to verify atheism is for god to show up [17:01] running already? [17:01] Action: Elysium grins. [17:01] muslim I can, whats on your mind? [17:01] That'd verify the falsity of atheism.' [17:02] Rather, the falsity of strong atheism. [17:02] Mode change '+b *!*clayton@*WHARTON.UPENN.EDU ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [17:02] we discussiing about trinity.. [17:02] Elysium (clayton@XMAN.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU) left #apologetics. [17:02] yes [17:02] what about Servetus? [17:02] I am very familair with him [17:02] Im trying to continue that thread... [17:02] of trinity... [17:03] Madmaxx (kingsmac@dialup8.cnetech.com) joined #apologetics. [17:03] madmaxx u Muslim too? [17:03] Jewish if anything [17:03] <][XQUS> shalom madmaxx [17:04] <][XQUS> shalom aleichem [17:04] Shalom [17:04] shalom, madmax [17:04] Muslimwhat about servetus? [17:04] Muslim are you Sunni or Shi'ite? [17:04] u guys wanted to know about servetus.. [17:04] muslim u mentioned him, whatis your point about him? [17:05] Topic changed by Acolyte!st_aidan@199.171.190.3: The Home of Rational Christian Theism [17:05] Im ahlus-sunnah wal jamaah [17:05] speak english [17:05] please [17:05] i am 'Muslim'(submitter to the singular Creator of this entire Universe) plain and simple.. [17:05] if it means anything. [17:05] muslim are you Sufi, Shi'ite or Sunni? or Bahai? [17:05] muslim I know what the term means [17:05] muslims why did you bring up servetus? [17:06] Acolyte- you said the Talmud supported the concept of resurrection and when I asked for specific references u said to look it up. [17:06] Are bahai'is muslim too? hmm. They believe in prophets after Muhgammad=not muslims. IMHO [17:06] oh..ok..well servetus found no biblical basis for the trinitarian concept...and.. [17:06] logos5 (pasc8891@hidden.cs.uidaho.edu) joined #apologetics. [17:06] snowman (KPeek@www-12-14.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [17:06] muslim, that is Servetus thought, so? [17:06] ]]ecc12 7 [17:06] ECCLESIASTES 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. --NASB [17:07] madmaxx it is a simple FACT of history that the pre-christian Phrasees belioved in the literal Resurrection, its in the Talmud [17:07] muslim: please explain these verses.... [17:07] ]]is42 8 [17:07] ISAIAH 42:8 "I am the \Lord\, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. --NASB [17:07] snowman (KPeek@www-12-14.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [17:07] muslim did you ever bother to Read John Calvin's reponse to Servetus? [17:07] ]]heb1 3 [17:07] HEBREWS 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on hi gh; --NASB [17:07] The reason I ask for specific references is that I may not interpret the same passage the way I do. [17:07] he proved from biblical basis that Jesuss was a prophet and there was only one GOD ...he wrote 'the errors of Trinity' ....and this guy was burned at the stake for his unitarian ideas... [17:07] madmaxx fine, but it is a FACT of history that the pre-christian pharasees did hold to it. [17:07] Madmaxx: if there is no resurrection, then Jesus was not resurrected and we are still in our sin. [17:08] muslim and Calvin Refuted his work [17:08] muslim: please respond to the verse above. [17:08] We are not in sin. [17:08] Muslim have you read Servetus AND Calvin? [17:09] ]]1jo1 8 [17:09] 1JOHN 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. --NASB [17:09] ]]rom3 23 [17:09] ROMANS 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, --NASB [17:09] I believe that Christianity has completely mis-interpreted what Jesus was trying to say. [17:09] see..i really cant..u have to remember that time and this time...there are now over 1000 versions of the bible now...the bible has been extricable changed since then .. [17:09] mad and gee you got it right after 2000 yrs eh? [17:09] MacBinary (ircle@dial196163.wbm.ca) joined #apologetics. [17:09] Madmaxx: the truth is not in you if you say you have no sin. [17:09] muslim, have you read Bucaille's bk? [17:09] hi [17:09] Muslim I have [17:10] <][XQUS> madmaxx: tell me is the God of Abraham the God of the dead or the living? [17:10] muslim: so your only option at this point is flat denial since you cannot respond to the clear words? [17:10] Maurice? [17:10] qaz yes Maurice Bucaille [17:10] I believe that what i believe in makes more sense. [17:10] have you read it? [17:10] hey mac [17:10] I ve read it, yes. [17:10] Madmaxx: so you have made up a religion that suits you? cute. [17:10] qaz its a joke of a bk [17:10] Yes, I have ..briefly looked at it...im not saying that the bible doesnt carry any truth anymore..there is still some truth left in it..but overall it has been dealt with it.. [17:10] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #apologetics. [17:11] muslim: so your only option at this point is flat denial since you cannot respond to the clear words? [17:11] why? [17:11] qaz See Norman Giesler "Answering Islam" for a full refutation of Bucaille [17:11] No. I have a religion that makes sense out of life and why we are here. [17:11] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #apologetics. [17:11] Madmaxx: the truth is not in you if you say you have no sin. [17:11] Okay, ill have to do that. [17:11] muslim the Bible has not been changed. Sure there are errors in transmission but they are minimal [17:11] madmaxx what religion is that? [17:11] What about this comets of ice thing i just read about? [17:11] No one has "sin " in the Christian sense. [17:12] muslim well I have read BOTH servetus AND Calvin. Calvin totally refuted Servetus [17:12] ]]1jo1 8 [17:12] 1JOHN 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. --NASB [17:12] We are all here to learn. [17:12] bu, might I add..there is a versee in the bible that still exists which tells the coming of the last prophet Mohammad ..and i can outline that... [17:12] madmaxx the Fathers think you are wrong. [17:12] thats along the same lines as Bucailles booklet. [17:12] muslim, are you going to answer ANY of my questions? [17:12] qaz what is? [17:13] Hey, the Fathers are free to think what they think and I am free to think what I think. [17:13] acolyte: what was ur question..? [17:13] muslim (CAENrufou@ibm580.ensicaen.ismra.fr) left irc: Read error to muslim[ibm580.ensicaen.ismra.fr]: EOF from client [17:13] muslim, have you read Servetus and Calvin's works? yes or no? [17:13] Madmaxx: you are free to make up a god for youself too, but it can't save you. [17:13] That is one thing I have learned - I have no need to judge another's religion. [17:13] ]]jn3 18 [17:13] JOHN 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. --NASB [17:14] Madmaxx: Jesus judged every religion. He said He was the only way to the Father. [17:14] ]]jn14 6 [17:14] JOHN 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. --NASB [17:14] No, his followers claimed that. [17:14] Madmaxx: those are Jesus' own words. [17:14] Ill try to summarize it, and give you details later: In the Quran, it is mentioned rain is formed in the sky and sent down from clouds. But it also mentions "He sends down from the heavens mountains wherein is hail" recently, this was proven by two scientists. Actual comets of hail, 100 tons each 19 per min hit the earth [17:15] Madmaxx: unless you flatly deny them, since you cannot agree with them. [17:15] <][XQUS> his followers claimed it because they remembered Jesus claiming that [17:15] qaz so? [17:15] Jesus came only to his people, the lost sheep of Israel. [17:15] Madmaxx: Jesus came to take away the sins of the world. [17:15] pascoe-no, they are words put in his mouth. [17:15] qaz demons know that too. So? [17:16] ][XQUS (mondar@cs1-16.sun.ptd.net) left #apologetics. [17:16] Madmaxx: so your only option is to deny the clear words since they oppose you directly? [17:16] This goes to explain the scientific factuality of the Quran, and the fact that it is divine scripture not written by Muhammad. [17:16] as opposed to the bible [17:16] qaz, did demons know about Commets? [17:17] I haven spoke to em, so wouldnt have an idea. [17:17] youre point? [17:17] qaz: Muhammad wrote about Jesus things which were contrary to the account of eyewitnesses of Christ. Muhammad has no authority to speak about Jesus when he contradicts eyewitness testimony. [17:17] qaz is God the only one who knew about commets at that time? [17:18] No. I believe his words have been twisted by those who wished to have their version of Jesus "come out on top". [17:18] Yes, he was the only one who new about comets of ice being sent form space to give water to the earth, as far as i know. [17:18] Madmaxx: but you have not one shred of evidence to support your empty claim. the *only* reason you dismiss the words is because the contradict the religion you have made up for yourself. 8( [17:18] qaz comments did not deliver water tot he earth. Commets are composed of gases, rocks and water vapor. it is simply a THEORY that comets did is all. Not a fact [17:18] Muhammad couldnt have gone to the scientific fountainhead in the Byzantine or whatever and gotten that. [17:19] Not according to Dr. Loius Frank and Dr. Yeates. do you want details? [17:19] muslim (guest@apache.wildstar.net) joined #apologetics. [17:19] Back.. [17:19] qaz: how could Muhammad have been so wrong on the events of Jesus' birth then? [17:19] acolyte r u christian? [17:20] Maybe he wasnt wrong. maybe the "eyewitness accounts" are wrong, or have been changed. [17:20] By the way, pascoe, read Matthew 15: 24. They are his own words. [17:20] MacBinary (ircle@dial196163.wbm.ca) left #apologetics. [17:20] qaz: so you think I should believe Muhammad who never even saw Jesus over the testimony of several eyewitnesses of Christ who actually walked with Him> [17:20] Why not look at that flip side also, instaed of assuming the Quran is wrong? [17:20] ]]mat15 24 [17:20] brb [17:20] MATTHEW 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." --NASB [17:21] hold on a second [17:21] And it doesn't have to be taken out of context. [17:21] muslim yes I am a christian [17:21] 'Yes, becaUSE it isnt muhammad who is saying these thing in the Quran, but God. Things like the "comets of ice" thing I state to prove that. [17:21] qaz maybe maybe maybe,so what abotu MAYBE [17:21] Madmaxx: This means that Jesus did not visit every nation. He sent His disciples to the nations. But Jesus came to take away all sin and die once for all of it. [17:21] qaz how do you know the quaran is the word of God? [17:22] r u a trinitarian? [17:22] muslim yes [17:22] Are you denying HIS OWN WORDS> [17:22] Muslim I am THE bastion of Trinitarianism on IRC [17:22] sheesh. It contains a challeng to bring one verse like it, which hasnt been met. [17:22] becuz of its perfection, consistency and rationality with known facts, science..and etc.. [17:22] qaz so? [17:22] qaz why do I need to do that to prove it wrong? [17:23] find some factual proof that contradicts the quran. not "eye witness accounts." [17:23] muslim, something can be consistent and stillbe wrong. Mathmatical systems can he completely consistent and still have nothing todo with reality [17:23] if any thinkinh human being would look into the quran..one would see its consistency and rationality ...the Quran challenges the reader.. [17:23] It doesnt contain internal contradictions like the bible, yet you calim the bibl as a book of god? [17:23] qaz you mean non historical? [17:23] That statement ius more definite than anything Jesus has to say about being God made flesh. [17:23] Madmaxx: if you are arguing that Jesus only saves Israel then you are mistaken because Jesus sent His disciples into the whole world. [17:23] qaz wanna bet? [17:23] I got one here [17:24] hold on [17:24] let me get it [17:24] acolyte: have u read the whole of the Quran? [17:24] muslim yes I have [17:24] hold on [17:24] Then why did he say it? [17:25] how can u make a judgement of something u have not even looked into or read..? [17:25] Not once but twice. [17:25] MUS:LIM I AHAVE RAED THE QURAN [17:25] I HAVE READ THE QURAN [17:25] madmaxx: u have read the Quran? [17:25] CAN YOU READ THIS???? [17:25] okay, okay [17:25] i have read it A-Z? [17:25] Madmaxx: Jesus visited God's chosen people and not every nation. Jesus sent out His disciples to the other nations. [17:25] yes. [17:25] muslim cover to cover [17:25] muslim-no [17:26] which translation..? [17:26] Acolyte: the trasnslation, or in Arabic, understanding it? [17:26] Did the man say those words or not? [17:26] ]]mat15 24 [17:26] MATTHEW 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." --NASB [17:26] If the translation, whoose translation? [17:26] qaz I read it in English, I figured God can get his message clear in English. [17:26] Madmaxx: Jesus said those words. [17:26] qaz Penguin Books, standard English translation [17:26] Then what did he mean. [17:27] Of course he can, but it wouldnt have been much use to a ppl that speak Arabic, not english, no? [17:27] how did u find reading it? [17:27] ]]jn17 21 [17:27] Please See Sura 7:54 and 32:4 and Sura 41:9-12 [17:27] And he chose arabic because of its depth and eloquency which cannot be matched by english [17:27] Okay,, hold on. [17:27] qaz perhaps [17:28] perhaps definitely [17:28] JOHN 17:21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, {art} in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. --NASB [17:28] At the least, Jesus then contradicted himself. [17:28] qaz perhaps not definately [17:28] Madmaxx: Jesus also said the words in Jn17:21 'that the world may believe' [17:28] okay, hold on. let me load it up. [17:29] PatriciaJ (CRHPFW@bos1f.delphi.com) joined #apologetics. [17:29] Then at the least, he contradicted himself. [17:29] muslim (guest@apache.wildstar.net) left irc: Leaving [17:29] madmaxx it is easy Jesus was sent to isreal because they were first to hear ebcause of their past with God, THEN he sent others when they Rejected him to the Gentiles [17:29] Madmaxx: just because you don't care to understand does not mean Jesus contradicted Himself. Jesus also said He was the bread of life. [17:29] please say the lines again? [17:29] Please See Sura 7:54 and 32:4 and Sura 41:9-12 [17:29] Please See Sura 7:54 and 32:4 and Sura 41:9-12 [17:30] thanks [17:30] ]]jn16 27 [17:30] JOHN 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. --NASB [17:30] qaz how many days did it take to make the world? 6 or 8? [17:30] ]]jn16 28 [17:30] PatriciaJ (CRHPFW@bos1f.delphi.com) left #apologetics. [17:30] JOHN 16:28 "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father." --NASB [17:31] You people are incredible - you want to be taken literally when it suits you but not when it doesn't. [17:31] guest (guest@apache.wildstar.net) joined #apologetics. [17:31] i looked at those verses..whats the inconsistency.. [17:31] Madmaxx: We take the words naturally. Jesus spoke in parables too. You refuse to take the words naturally and you end up with contradictions. [17:31] What do you mean, I don't care to understand. I am trying to understand why you cannot accept those words he spoke. [17:32] Madmaxx: I claim to accept all the words Jesus spoke. you are the only one saying otherwise. [17:32] Sorry it took so long. [17:32] acolyte: r u there? [17:32] hold on [17:33] MacBinary (ircle@dial196163.wbm.ca) joined #apologetics. [17:33] Madmaxx: Jesus said He was sent to Israel, which He was. Jesus did not visit every nation. He sent His disciples to the nations just like He said. [17:33] hi [17:33] Okay, youre point is the apparant indeiscrepancy between the amount of time it took to create heavens, earth, etc.? [17:33] It is simple. Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel. His followers thought he had a good idea and wanted to spread it. [17:33] I am here [17:33] qaz yes [17:33] guest yes? [17:34] In my interpretation, there is no contradiction. [17:34] Nick change: guest -> muslim [17:34] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #apologetics. [17:34] well are we having fun heheeeee [17:34] hey zx [17:34] hi [17:34] Madmaxx: Jesus told them to spread it. or don't you believe everything Jesus said? [17:34] I am not a scholor of the Quran by no means. If I make any mistake, it is unintantional. All of what follows is my opinion only. Take it for that only. All praise is due to Allah. Oaky, now them... [17:35] madmaxx funny how you can figure it out 20000 yrs later and Jesus diciples sitting at his feet messed it up eh? [17:35] ]]jn17 18 [17:35] JOHN 17:18 "As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. --NASB [17:35] these are cool verses..this verses verify the Big Bang fact.. [17:35] And no need to re-interpret what he said. It can be taken at face value. [17:35] qaz I am waiting [17:35] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #apologetics. [17:35] muslim how many days did it take to create the world? 6 or 8? [17:35] Madmaxx: now explain John 17:18 if what you say is true. [17:35] One refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth, the other only to the earth. [17:35] Schwerman (Schwerman@www-16-144.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [17:35] Tahts obvious [17:36] [] (CAENgener@ibm580.ensicaen.ismra.fr) joined #apologetics. [17:36] [] (CAENgener@ibm580.ensicaen.ismra.fr) left #apologetics. [17:36] Schwerman (Schwerman@www-16-144.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [17:36] John was written by a rfollower who realized that the followers fo the new religion needed justification. [17:36] qaz may have a point ..one has the differentiate between the 'heavens'--which is basicly the rest of the universe ..and the earth.. [17:37] madmaxx how do you knw that? [17:37] MacBinary (ircle@dial196163.wbm.ca) left #apologetics. [17:37] muslim, it MIGHT Be? [17:37] Madmaxx: so you only believe the words of Jesus in Matthew and not in John? now you are the one who cannot accept the whole truth. You take only what suits you. 8( [17:37] I have three translation ( or more corretly, translations of the meanings of the quran) in front of me. [17:37] qaz what do they say? [17:37] They ARE two different things [17:37] How do you know it isn't without quoting the book you are defending? [17:38] Acolyte: theres a new book out called "From Facts to Values" u will find it quite interesting... [17:38] Yusuf Ali says in both six days. [17:38] Madmaxx: again, you may flatly deny the words of the Bible, but that seems to be your only option since you cannot provide any evidence for your claims. [17:38] qaz that is because he says they overlap, I ahve read Ali and he is wrong [17:38] Madmaxx: if all you can say is 'I don't believe it' then so be it. but you cannot say the words are wrong since you have nothing in the way of evidence. [17:39] qaz ali is trying toget out of the contradiction by saying that they overlap, but the verses do not say that at all. In one place it says six days in another it says 8, whcih is it? [17:39] So does Shakir and Picthall. How do I believe, these three or you? [17:40] qaz who do I believe? The Apostles or a Sheep herder? [17:40] Rather, who do i believe? [17:40] No, it is you who are denying the words because they contradict the cherished idea that Jesus came to save the world when in reality his mission was far more narrow in scope. [17:40] Okay, who was youre Quran translated by, again? [17:40] qaz: I cannot believe Muhammand because he has no authority to contradict eyewitnesses of Christ. Muhammad never followed Jesus. [17:40] qaz I have two translations [17:40] 'Translated by whom? [17:40] qaz i have Yusif Ali's and the one done by Penguin bks [17:41] u can get the book "From Facts to Values: Certainty, Order, Balance and their Universal Implications" from : Optagon Publications Ltd. , P.O. Box 572 , Postal Station "P" , Toronto, Ontario, Canada , M5s 2T1 .. [17:41] Who was the translator for Penguin Books? [17:41] Madmaxx: why did Jesus send His disciples into the world then? you must hate John because of what Jesus says there. 8( [17:41] muslim (guest@apache.wildstar.net) left irc: Leaving [17:41] I have no need to feel left out if Jesus did not come to save Gentiles because the truth of his teaching is for all regardless of what one believes. [17:41] madmax how do you knw what Jesus taught? [17:41] Madmaxx: what is the truth of His teaching if you claim to know? [17:42] qaz I have it at home, I am at work [17:42] qaz I have another question [17:42] Okay, obvioulsy you think its a contradiction, where three different translatioors all say it is six. But lets move on. [17:42] Dude (kmay@universe5.barint.on.ca) joined #apologetics. [17:42] qaz please read Sura 2:106 [17:42] The arabic languae, "yaum" is usually translated to days. [17:42] 'Where as it could mean any period of time. [17:42] qaz both translations I have say 6 and 8 [17:43] No, Jesus did not send his disciples into the world, they sent themselves with what they felt was the good news. [17:43] Another limitation of translation. [17:43] ]]jn18 37 [17:43] JOHN 18:37 Pilate therefore said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say {correctly} that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." --NASB [17:43] qaz I am not interested in what it COULD mean, btu what it DOES MEAN [17:43] qaz please read Sura 2:106 [17:43] Do you have the penguin bk with you know? [17:43] Okay, hold on. [17:43] It is amazing what converts are capable of, isn't it? [17:43] qaz No I am at work [17:43] ]]act1 8 [17:43] ACTS 1:8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth. " --NASB [17:44] you have it memorized?! [17:44] madmaxx how do you kno what Jesus taught? [17:44] Dude (kmay@universe5.barint.on.ca) left #apologetics. [17:44] qaz some of it I do [17:44] qaz I told you I have read the Quran, Bucaille, some of the Hadith and other Muslim writings already [17:44] *smile* good to hear! [17:44] Madmaxx: all you can do is deny that Jesus spoke the words. you cannot supply evidence. the eyewitnesses supply the words and you deny them. 8( [17:44] qaz and I still think it is a false religion [17:44] Acolyte- how do YOU know what Jesus taught? [17:45] madmaxx that si what I asked you. please answer what I asked [17:45] What about 2:106? [17:45] ]]mat28 18 19 [17:45] qaz what does it say? [17:45] MATTHEW 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. --NASB [17:45] MATTHEW 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, --NASB [17:45] pascoe- do you deny Matthew? [17:45] qaz can you quote it for me? [17:45] Madmaxx: read Matthew 28:18-19 above and tell me you don't deny the words. [17:45] madmaxx wheather I do or not does not answer what I asked you, please answer what I asked you. [17:45] None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitu [17:45] te something better or similar: Knowest [17:45] thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? [17:45] madmaxx how do you kno what Jesus taught? [17:46] Madmaxx: I believe Jesus spoke the words in Matthew. I don't deny them because of my own opinions. [17:46] ]]matt 26 13 [17:46] MATTHEW 26:13 "Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall also be spoken of in memory of her." --NASB [17:46] qaz so they change the Words of Allah? [17:46] yes? [17:47] who change them? [17:47] qaz what could they substititue the words of God with if the words of God are perfect? [17:47] Who is they? [17:47] qaz you tell me, I just rememebred the Sura [17:48] It doesnt mention a they or them in the ayah. [17:48] In light of Matthew 15: 24, which makes more sense- that Jesus later changed his mind or that the later words were written by a convert desirous of justification for his activities? [17:48] qaz oh so the English is wrong? [17:49] qaz what does the WHOLE verse say? [17:49] Acolyte: what are you talking about? [17:49] YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but W [17:49] e substitute something better or similar: Knowest [17:49] thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? [17:49] Madmaxx: but you misunderstand the words in Matthew 15:24 because you want them to say that Jesus did not come for anyone but Israel. All the other references clearly show that you are mistaken. You cannot accept ALL the other verses, you only accept one and call all the rest contradictions because you misunderstand the one. [17:49] That is the whole verse. [17:49] CKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause [17:49] be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or [17:49] the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? [17:50] pascoe-how can I misunderstand? [17:50] and according to shakir: [17:50] qaz ok, why do you need to substitute words for thw words of God? [17:50] HAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring on [17:50] e better than it or like it. Do you not know that [17:50] Allah has power over all things? [17:50] Why did you try to say I was not including the whole verse? [17:50] qaz why is Hakir different? [17:50] Jesus said them not I. Answer my previous question. [17:50] qaz No, looka t whatis says [17:51] qaz look at what it says [17:51] qaz why do you change the revelatins of God with substitute words? why change it? [17:51] Madmaxx: Jesus said clearly that He came to Israel, which is very true. Jesus did not visit the other nations. Jesus sent His disciples to the other nations in His name. Jesus came to deal with the sins of the world as all the other verses say. [17:51] They are different because they are different people. Different people have different interpretations. [17:51] I dont change it. [17:51] Like acolyte is telling qaz-look at what it says. [17:51] qaz I DID NOT say you did. [17:52] qaz looka t what the verse says [17:52] Madmaxx: because Jesus only visited Israel, you want to say that Jesus did not come for the whole world, but you must ignore all of Jesus' other words if you want to believe that way. [17:52] qaz it says that the Quran has been changed [17:52] ]]matt 26 13 [17:52] MATTHEW 26:13 "Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall also be spoken of in memory of her." --NASB [17:52] Madmaxx: you look at what Matt 26:13 says and please explain it. [17:52] How do you derive that, acoltye? [17:53] what does abrogate mean? [17:53] ]]mat28 18 19 [17:53] MATTHEW 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. --NASB [17:53] MATTHEW 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, --NASB [17:53] *smile* [17:53] Madmaxx: you look at what Matt 28:18-19 says and please explain it. [17:53] Goldnboy (Goldnboy@www-35-227.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [17:53] hello? [17:53] qaz ok Sura 201:6 says that they do not abrogate the revelations of God, but that they SUBSTITUTE Gods words wiht other words, hence they changed the Quran [17:54] Jesus not only did not come for the entire world, He came "but unto the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel." [17:54] qaz look at Sura 6:34 [17:54] YOure wrong. it say we not that they. [17:54] qaz what? speak english [17:54] Goldnboy (Goldnboy@www-35-227.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [17:54] Capitrat "We" is used, not "that they" according to youre "interpretation" [17:54] qaz ok Sura 201:6 says that they do not abrogate the revelations of God, but that they SUBSTITUTE Gods words wiht other words, hence they changed the Quran [17:55] Madmaxx: you look at what Matt 28:18-19 says and please explain it. [17:55] Capital, not capitral [17:55] qaz fine who is "We" speaking? [17:55] Madmaxx: you are ignoring the other words of Christ because they show your error and you cannot accept them. [17:55] Why do you play such games? Why do you replace "That they" with "We"? [17:55] And what is this about visiting other nations? Talk about liberal interpretation. [17:55] qaz I didn't YOU DID [17:55] LOOK UP [17:56] Madmaxx: Jesus did not visit the lost sheep of every nation. He sent His disciples to the nations just as His words clearly say. [17:56] let me copy and paste again. [17:56] YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but W [17:56] e substitute something better or similar: Knowest [17:56] thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? [17:56] I dont see that they, do you? [17:56] Madmaxx: I have explained the verse you gave. you cannot explain the verses I showed you. [17:56] ]]mat28 18 19 [17:56] MATTHEW 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. --NASB [17:56] MATTHEW 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, --NASB [17:56] PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or caus [17:56] e be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or [17:56] the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? [17:56] Agaiun, no that they, only we. [17:56] You haven't explained anything. [17:57] qaz shut up for a minute [17:57] SHAKIR: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring o [17:57] ne better than it or like it. Do you not know that [17:57] Allah has power over all things? [17:57] PatriciaJ (CRHPFW@bos1f.delphi.com) joined #apologetics. [17:57] And yet again. your are lying, blatantly. [17:57] Madmaxx: I have agreed with your verse that Jesus only came in the flesh to Israel just as He said. [17:57] qaz if you shut up and let me quote what you said I will [17:57] PatriciaJ (CRHPFW@bos1f.delphi.com) left #apologetics. [17:57] okay. [17:58] Capitrat "We" is used, not "that they" according to youre [17:58] +"interpretation" [17:58] THERE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [17:58] qaz you said WE [17:58] NOT ME [17:58] so don't accuse me of lying. [17:59] What am i saying? I am saying that it is NOT that they. [17:59] qaz Fine,it is not they. So what [17:59] That was in response to you saying That they in youre translation. [17:59] qaz you think it is "we" right? [17:59] qaz Fine,it is not they. So what [17:59] qaz you think it is "we" right? [17:59] Matt 28 ; 18-19 The answer of the author to the doubt expressed in the preceding verse. The author of Matthew realized that a definitive justification was necessary. [17:59] So what? SAO WHAT? You drag that point along, then so what? [17:59] qaz: the stuff you quoted a bit ago says in english that someone thinks it is ok to substitute words in the quran. [18:00] I have only said "We". In fact, i hjavent said it. I copied and pasted it. [18:00] qaz even if it means THEY or WE, the verse say that the words of the Koran are changed. [18:00] hence see sura 6 which says that the words fo the Quran CANNOT be changed [18:00] By the way, you never answered my question about which made more sense. [18:00] hence contradiction [18:00] madmaxx you never answered my question. [18:01] Madmaxx: so you say Matthew made up words of Christ when they disagree with you and you accept other verse in Matthew only when they seem to support you? you are obviously only able to accept what you want to accept from the Wor d and flatly deny what you can't accept. [18:01] What question? [18:01] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:01] Madmaxx: your method is to comb out verses you like and deny the rest. 8( [18:01] It is talking about the revelations of God. It doesnt mention specifically Quran. [18:01] qaz ok, is the Koran a revelationof God? [18:02] Allah would never cause any of his revelations to be changed. [18:02] yes. [18:02] qaz are there other revelations of God? [18:02] qaz: it says Quran. you quoted it enough times I saw it was Quran that was being talked about. [18:02] yes [18:02] like what? [18:02] pascoe- I accept what makes sense. [18:02] the Hadith? [18:02] Madmaxx: and deny the rest? [18:02] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:02] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:02] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:02] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:02] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:02] look again, acolyte. [18:02] madmaxx how do you kow anything about Jesus andwhat he taught? [18:02] what else is a revalationof God? [18:03] From the same book you do, acolyte. [18:03] Madmaxx: you accept only what you want to accept is what you mean to say. 8( [18:03] pascoe- I can say the same about you. [18:03] The original Bible, the original Torah, and one or two more, i forget their names. [18:03] Madmaxx: but you deny the rest of Matthew. [18:03] madmaxx so is it a reliable source or not? [18:03] they were lost. [18:03] qaz, how do you know that? [18:03] or changed by man [18:04] qaz, how do you know that? [18:04] because the Quran says so. And because I know that Gods word would not be full of contradictions like the Bible [18:04] qaz: I cannot believe Muhammand because he has no authority to contradict eyewitnesses of Christ. Muhammad never followed Jesus. [18:04] I do not deny it exists - only that the reasons for its existence are not those traditional Christianity wishes to accept. [18:04] qaz ok, but have youactually checked the Bible to see if it was lost or did you just take the Korans word for it? [18:05] Of course no. Jesus was not in Muhammads time. he couldnt have followed Jesus. [18:05] madmaxx is the test a reliable recored for the life and teachings of christ? [18:05] qaz, that is not what I meant [18:05] Madmaxx: so how do you know what parts of Matthew are reliable? do you just take the verses that you like and deny the rest? [18:05] Do you deny the existence of Baruch? [18:05] qaz other than what the koran says, how do you know that the Bible was lost? [18:05] The bible as a physical book was not lost. Its message was, or at least distorted. [18:05] mad answer my question, don't evade it with games [18:06] pascoe- was Jesus a devout Jew? [18:06] qaz do you know what textual reconsctruction is? [18:06] madmaxx is the test a reliable recored for the life and teachings of christ? [18:06] mad yes or no? [18:06] enlightmen me, oh wise one. [18:06] Madmaxx: Jesus was born a Jew and was a Jewish teacher. But Jesus was the founder of a new covenant between man and God. [18:06] On the whole, I do not believe so. [18:07] Was Jesus a devout Jew? [18:07] on what basis do you say that, madmaxx? [18:07] qaz when we have multiple coppies of a document, we can reconstruct it using scientific methods to come to the original document. [18:07] qaz thisis called textual criticism [18:07] qaz- see above. [18:07] okay. [18:07] qaz the NT has been reconstructed to 99.9% of the original document. [18:08] Acolyte: you use science, but not to compare it to the word of god, or wht? [18:08] qaz the OT has been reconstrcuted to 99.7% [18:08] qaz sure I do. [18:08] Itsounds like a guestimate, to me. thats what it boils down to. [18:08] qaz how do you know? [18:08] pascoe- would you consider Jesus to have been a devout Jew? [18:09] qaz: if you knew of something wrong with the doctrine of the Bible, you would name it. [18:09] qaz go read Oxford Professor Bruce MEtzger, The Text of the NT, Oxford PRess [18:09] You are looking at existing documents, and trying to reconstruct the original. Only the original doesnt exist. Whats the percentages for, then? [18:09] qaz I am citing facts, and sources, and you are going on what it SOUNDS LIKE? [18:09] Madmaxx: Jesus did not make the mistakes that the Jewish leaders of His day made. Jesus brought a new covenant and fulfillment of the Law in the Spirit. [18:09] The Quran is 100% original. [18:09] qaz that is the percentage [18:10] qaz no you don't have the orginal Koran [18:10] WAS JESUS A DEVOUT JEW? [18:10] qaz don't you READ the Hadith? [18:10] At least I dont distort youre sources and bounce them back at you. I dont want this to get personal. Im caming down. [18:10] qaz who was the second Caliph, do you know what he did? [18:10] qaz don't accuse if you cannot back it up [18:10] What did Umar (R) do? [18:10] Madmaxx: Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. He did not come to put us under the old Law but to fulfill it. [18:10] im not. [18:10] brb\ [18:11] or, i can back it up. [18:11] Was Jesus a devout Jew? [18:11] no, he was not. [18:11] ok [18:11] I was wrong, it is the 3rd Caliph [18:11] but I have no background to youre line of argument, so Ill keep out of it. [18:11] Uthman [18:11] okay. what did he do? [18:11] Madmaxx: Jesus obeyed the requirement of the Law that the Jews followed, but Jesus was not limited to the old Law of the Jews because He came to fulfill that Law. [18:12] wait [18:12] let me say, then you cant say im reacting to your allegations [18:12] or whatever. [18:12] qaz, he ppl were reading different version of the Koran so do you know what he did? he took them all, read them and burned all but one copy. [18:12] Madmaxx: Jesus was blameless as a Jew, but was more than a Jew because He brought a new covenant. [18:12] blaire (blaire@143.207.68.54) joined #apologetics. [18:13] Madmaxx: Jesus brought the message that we must be more righteous than even the Pharisees. [18:13] He collected all the other scripts of the quran, and burned them. He used the Madina and Mecca script as the standard. This is because in Arabic, small vowels are used to show how to pronounce the words. [18:13] Ok, I am going to assume he was. In the light of that assumption,which makes more sense, Matt 15 ; 24 or Matt 28: 18-19? [18:14] qaz it is in Al-Bukhari, The Translation of the meaning of Sahih Al Bukhari, [18:14] The words are all exactly the same. [18:14] Madmaxx: both make perfect sense. you are the only one who must reject one. [18:14] qaz but how do you know that they are the same if he BURNED them? [18:14] Madmaxx: the only basis for you rejection of one is based on your opinion and no evidence. [18:14] ppls way of pronouncing them were different, and to avoid future ambiguity by ppl who dont know Arabic, he did what he did. [18:14] In other words, Jesus changed his mind? [18:14] qaz Buhkari says the words were diferent aand arguments were coming about because fo the different vbersion of the Koran [18:15] Madmaxx: no, it means you want to misunderstand a verse because you think it supports your opinion. [18:15] Madmaxx: Jesus said He came to Israel, and that is exactly the case. [18:15] Again, not different versions, but different pronunciations. And how do you know, or are so sure about, them being different? [18:15] How am I mis-understanding Matt 15: 24? [18:15] Madmaxx: You say that Jesus did not come to spread His message to the whole world, but Jesus said He did. [18:17] Madmaxx: I find it amazing that you must deny Mat 28:18-19 in order to continue to believe as you do. [18:17] qaz, well that is only what Buhkari said, and that is what I read. perhaps buhkari is wrong. [18:17] Madmaxx: yet on the other hand you are willing to accept Mat 15:24. [18:17] not likely. Its more likely that youre wrong. [18:17] No, it is you who wish to mis-interpret Matt 15: 24 in light of your understandable need to believe Matt 28: 18-19. [18:17] Or do you have that hadith in Bukhari memorized? [18:17] qaz even still tho it shows that the pronunciation of the words differed, hence the text was changed [18:18] Madmaxx: but I need not deny any verse to understand as I do. you must deny verses because they don't fit your understanding. [18:18] Do you know Arabic? Then dont talk about it being changed. [18:18] Without Matt 28: 18-19, Christianity loses a lot of support. [18:18] madmaxx, I find it much easier to believe that the disciples knew what Jesus wanted and died for it. You have not and I find it hard to believe that you 2000 yrs later are in a BETTER position to know [18:18] The words were not changed. [18:18] qaz do you know GReek? [18:18] no. [18:18] qaz then why was the pronuciation changed? [18:19] poine? [18:19] Madmaxx: I have shown you more verses that Jesus wanted His gospel spread to the whole world. you seem to have only one misunderstanding of one verse. [18:19] Let me explain, then [18:19] qaz if yodon't know GReek then don't make the same claim. [18:19] which claim? [18:19] the bible is in english. [18:19] And I bet all of those verses come at the end of books. [18:20] Do you know Arabic? Then dont talk about it being changed. [18:20] originally in hebrew, which is closer to Arabic, than Greek. [18:20] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [18:20] qaz rhe Jews translated the OT to greek BTW [18:20] qaz besides the NT was in Greek [18:20] Madmaxx: I have shown you 5 verses and only 1 comes from the end of a book. but you deny all of them. [18:20] To put it simply, I do not believe that Jesus said all that it is claimed He said. [18:21] the bible was sent to Jesus, no? And Jesus is Hebrew? then how could it be in Greek, if only translated? [18:21] the nt that is [18:21] Madmaxx: of course you must reject all the verses that contradict your opinion. [18:21] Do you believe a court reporter took down every word he said. [18:21] qaz wrong [18:21] Madmaxx: flat denial is your only option since you have no evidence at all. [18:22] qaz the NT was written in Greek. The OT is written in Hebrew and aramaic and trasnalted to Greek 200 yrs BEFORE JEsus. [18:22] qaz, Jesus spoke Hebrew, Greek and aramaic [18:22] My point is this: In translation, much meaning is lost. Thats why the quran is in Arabic, and whenever its translated by Muslims, the Arabic is written side by side the translation. [18:22] On the other hand, you must re-interpret all those that don't fit yours. [18:22] Madmaxx: all the verses fit my understanding tho. [18:22] Madmaxx: I don't have to deny any of them. [18:22] qaz fine, that is why we have the greek and hebrew and aramaic [18:23] the OT=the Torah. okay. How could the NT be written in Greek when the prophet Jesus was a Jew, speaking Hebrew? [18:23] qaz I have the greek and hebrew at home [18:23] What evidence is there that Jesus spoke Greek? [18:23] qaz many Jews spoke Greek in Jesus time [18:23] Acolyte: I cannot argue with that. okay, ill accept youre words. [18:23] madmax commen language of the Empire [18:23] madmmaxx he quoted from the LXX [18:24] qaz, many Jews read from the greek translation of the OT for 200 yrs before Jesus. [18:24] What is youre point, then? [18:24] qaz if you have the arabic, we have the greek hebrew and aramic. [18:24] ]]mat21 43 [18:24] MATTHEW 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. --NASB [18:24] So what is your point? What are you driving at? [18:24] Acolyte? [18:25] qaz, my first point was that revelations, particularly the Koran have been changed. Otherwise there would be no need for editing under Uthman and Zayed. [18:25] I don't deny the existence of any verses in the Bible. I deny that they are there for the reason you believe they are there. [18:25] ]]mat 24 9 [18:25] MATTHEW 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. --NASB [18:26] Madmaxx: you must deny all the verses I show you. [18:26] Bring more proof of the quran being changed, or even having" contradictions" in it. Ill try to explain them in somewhat better light. [18:26] Madmaxx: you will not deny them because of evidence, only because they destroy your misunderstanding. [18:26] qaz secondly even if you say that there was no change in words there is NO WAY you can tell since the texts have been BURNED. Hence it leads me to think that Uthman had smething to hide. [18:26] qaz just did [18:26] Thats youre thinking, not proof. [18:27] qaz why not read Geisler's bk? Answering Islam by Norman Giseler and Abdul Saleeb [18:27] ]]mat24 30 [18:27] MATTHEW 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the \Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky\ with power and great glory. --NASB [18:27] Since he burned them, proof cannot be gotten either way. [18:27] I do not misunderstand - it is Christianity that misunderstands. [18:27] qaz it is a fact that the Koran was edited. [18:27] Whats your proof? not thinking. [18:27] Madmaxx: explain the verses I show you then. you cannot explain them, only deny them. [18:27] qaz that is the point. You cannot be sure you have the words of God or not. [18:27] Hey, i do not need apologetics, Christianity does. [18:28] I can be sure of that. You havent brought forth any proof, just thinkings. [18:28] Ok list the verses again. [18:28] Madmaxx: sure, you escape by flat denial of what contradicts you. [18:28] ]]mat24 30 [18:28] MATTHEW 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the \Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky\ with power and great glory. --NASB [18:28] qaz ok, all other copies were burned, how do you know that they were not the right ones? [18:29] I trust Uthman and the khalifate at his time. You do not. [18:29] Thats a fundamental difference, and nothing can be gotton from thinkings. Lets move to proof. [18:29] pascoe2 (pasc8891@xslip03.csrv.uidaho.edu) joined #apologetics. [18:29] qaz ok, you trust them but they could have lied right? its possible? [18:30] Of course it possible, but Im not going to say just because he is human, he burned the "right" Quran, and changed it..! [18:30] qaz lets get this straigt, the Koran can be absolute right about everything, that does not mean it is from God. My Math bk is absolutely right about eveyrthing it says, does not make it the words of God [18:30] ]]mat21 43 [18:30] MATTHEW 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it. --NASB [18:30] ]]mat24 30 [18:30] MATTHEW 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the \Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky\ with power and great glory. --NASB [18:31] pascoe judgement on the Temple in 70 AD [18:31] The fact that it has absolute right about everything, even things we are JUST fionding out with our highly evolved form of science, does hint to it divine nature. [18:32] qaz many ancient cultures had an idea of evolution. Even the greeks did, and they were 1,000 yrs before Muhammed. [18:32] nettie (brandtai@puma.dcanderson.com) joined #apologetics. [18:32] pascoe (pasc8891@xslip32.csrv.uidaho.edu) left irc: Ping timeout for pascoe[xslip32.csrv.uidaho.edu] [18:32] Nick change: pascoe2 -> pascoe [18:32] hello nettie. 8) [18:32] Answer the part of comets of ice. How did Muhammad figure this out? [18:32] pascoe do you have ducq's email address? [18:32] Who did, or could, he have asked? [18:33] nettie: sorry. 8( [18:33] oh ok thanks [18:33] nettie (brandtai@puma.dcanderson.com) left #apologetics. [18:33] qaz, lets say that he is talking about commets of ice ok. Demons could have told him. It would not be the first time false prophets came along. [18:33] You cannot prove that what the Quran says about Jesus is not true, because you do not have a 100% origianl copy of the Bible. [18:34] qaz niether do you have a 100% copy of the koran so what? [18:34] Demons told him? Do you believe in demons? [18:34] qaz yes I do [18:34] qaz don't you? [18:34] Yet you couldnt prove that. You said you dont have a 100% originbal copy of the Bible. [18:34] qaz don't you believe in the Jinn? [18:34] Got to go - thanks for the discussion [18:34] yes, they are not demons. [18:34] Madmaxx (kingsmac@dialup8.cnetech.com) left #apologetics. [18:34] qaz I don't need to have a 100% copy [18:35] yes, you do, because otherwise you cannot say it came from Allah. [18:35] ]]mark11 17 [18:35] MARK 11:17 And He {began} to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, '\My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations\'? But you have made it a \robbers' den\." --NASB [18:35] how much longer will you be on for, acolyte? [18:36] qaz not much [18:36] ]]mark11 17 madmaxx [18:36] qaz I know what Plato said even if the text that we have is not perfect [18:36] so...? [18:36] qaz I know what Jesus said even if the text has some minor variations [18:36] qaz what country are youfrom? [18:37] i have to go. I hope you saw the loose basis for the arguments you braought forth about internal conflicts in the Quran, at leasst. India. [18:37] and you? [18:37] Alcuin (kingtutor@remote4-line6.cis.yale.edu) joined #apologetics. [18:38] USA [18:38] hey alcuin [18:38] okay, bye, Acolyte, and everyone else. [18:38] qaz I will be on tonight American time [18:38] qaz (qaz@hh-labmac2.csh.uiuc.edu) left #apologetics. [18:38] hey alcuin [18:38] Hiya, Acolyte [18:38] Mode change '+o Alcuin ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [18:38] watch the channel I gotta go [18:39] ok [18:39] pax [18:39] Acolyte (st_aidan@199.171.190.3) left irc: Leaving [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_2_24_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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