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[ref001] #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/3/96 #apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 4/3/96 [04:13] Attempting connection to Norman.OK.US.undernet.org:6667 [04:13] Successful connection to Norman.OK.US.undernet.org [04:13] ApoloBot joined #Apologetics. [04:13] Mode change '+o ApoloBot ' by W!cservice@undernet.org [04:14] faux if you GO and READ any dictionary of the bible, there IS a species in the middle East of LOCUSTS, not crickets, that walsk on 4 legs [04:14] To you, but I believe your argument had more holes than swiss cheese. :) [04:14] Jonesey: there is more than one definition of species and evolution and science tho. [04:14] Acolyte: also, mantises walk on four legs. [04:14] Jonesey: how does science relate to religion? [04:14] Can you tell me which? [04:14] faux this is what leviticus is refering to since not all locusts were unclean, as John the Baptist indicates in the NT [04:14] that's the one I saw the picture on. I told her it had 4 legs! [04:14] she told me to "look again". :) [04:15] faux can I tell you which what? what species? no, as mI am at worka nd Id on't haev the source handy, but email me and I will give you the exact name [04:15] pascoe:But the typical religious person I debate can't give me any that make sense [04:15] jonesy try me [04:15] Acolyte: also, an argument could be made that idiom is used like as in 'on all fours'. [04:15] Okay. [04:15] jonsey the typcial atheist I debate with doesn't know squat about Philosophy, so? [04:15] samsara:Science is the study of the physical universe. Whenever religion makes comments on part of the physical universe, it becomes subject to science. [04:15] pascoe true, either way, its no biggie [04:15] Acolyte:But philosophy is useless. What has it given us? [04:15] jonsey false [04:15] Who cares about it? [04:16] jonsey science for one [04:16] Pascoe: We've already discussed this. IT's dropped as far as I'm concerned. [04:16] That's silly [04:16] Acolyte: also, we say centipede even in modern language even tho centipedes don't have 100 legs. [04:16] jonsey it is? how so? [04:16] FauxReal: hey, I still want my $100. 8) [04:16] pascoe I know [04:16] Jonesey: but isn't religion what lies behind logical systems and human models? surely if you accept evolution, you must agree? [04:16] jonsey it is epistemology and metaphysics that makes science possible for one [04:17] Science arose as much out of construction, and practical knowledge as it did out of philosophy. [04:17] acolyte:That's baloney [04:17] weaving and farming contributed much [04:17] evolution itself is an expression of religious conviction about the evidence. [04:17] jonsey the theoretical laid the groundwork for the practical [04:17] jonsey whatis baloney? [04:17] Pascoe: As soon as I verify that any insect uses it's mandibles to walk. :) [04:17] Mode change '+o pascoe ' by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com [04:17] belief in science as a method for arriving at truth is a philosophical presupposition. [04:18] pascoe empiricism for one [04:19] jonsey without an epistemology science would be impossible and never would have arisen [04:19] acolyte:Farmiing preceded philosophy by a great margin [04:19] acolyate:That is bollox [04:19] FauxReal: scorpions do that according to Fox's book on entomology. [04:19] jonsey AHHAHAH, not quite my freind, atomism for one came around 2500 yrs before it was verified in any meaningful sense [04:19] The arabs did a lot of early science with no epistemology to speak of [04:19] jonsey false [04:19] acolyte:early atomism wasn't science. [04:19] Jonesey: are you considering farming to be a science? [04:19] It was just sheer speculation. [04:19] joney the Arabs were using Aristotle,r ead yor history [04:19] Modern atomic theory is a whole different ball game [04:20] Well, then Fox is wrong, because scorpions aren't insects. Entomology is the study of insects, not arachnids. :) [04:20] Acolyte:Some were, most weren't. [04:20] Jonesey: I am confused. Doesn't the observer (human) inherently bias what (religion) he is measuring with the measuring instrument (science/metphysics/philosophy)? [04:20] jonsey in essrnce it is the same [04:20] farming has contributed much to science. [04:20] In essence it isn't. [04:20] jonsey, do you know what epistemology IS? [04:20] This is a very different model indeed. [04:20] FauxReal: read his intro to see why he classifies them under entomology. [04:20] jonsey different ins ome respects but its basic assumptions are the same [04:20] Acolyte:It purports to be a theory of knowledge, but there are many radically differing brands of it. [04:21] jonesey wrong [04:21] So much so that it's hard to call it all "epistemology" with a straight face.. [04:21] jonsey episteologyis the study of knowledge and how it is attained [04:21] It's hard to correlate protons, electrons and neutrons with the atoms of democritus [04:21] jonsey without a general working theory, there isno learning [04:21] acolyte:That's bS [04:21] jonsey, not really [04:21] Jonesey: science is always subject to new data. [04:21] jonsey oh really? how long have you been in the field of philosophy? [04:22] I have no idea of epistemology, but I have a lot more learning than virtually any philosopher, in terms of handling the world. [04:22] acolyte:Zero [04:22] No interest in the field, really. [04:22] It's useless. [04:22] jonsey I have 10 yrs in the field, how about you? [04:22] samsara (jcc15583@132.170.24.89) left #Apologetics. [04:22] jonsey why is utility a criteria? [04:22] Jonesey: the pursuit of science is based on a fundamental philosophical presupposition. [04:24] acolyte:Because you're sitting here on the internet, BSing about how useful philosophy is. Has it given us anything to compare with the net? [04:24] Or the computer? [04:24] Action: Acolyte wonders howif he does not know about Epistemology then how canhe have more learning about a field he knows nothig about??? [04:24] Those all come from science, not from stupid word tricks. [04:24] Yes, the mind. [04:24] Jonsey yes, ethics [04:24] No, not the mind [04:24] jonsey without logic youwould not have computers to begin with [04:24] The study of the mind is just beginning, thanks the the advances of neuroscience. [04:26] But logic is a brance of mathematics. [04:26] AHHAHAHAHHA [04:26] It really began to advance with Boole. [04:26] wrong [04:29] The mind, the collective unconcious which has become concious through the Internet. [04:29] er, conscious, even. [04:29] jonsey the Law of Contradiction is the basis for math, not derived from it [04:29] computers are based on boolean algebra, implemented in semiconductor physics. [04:29] Acolyte:It's a part of math. [04:29] jonsey sure, but without the law of contradiction it is all BS [04:29] jonsey how do you show the law of contradictionwithout using it? [04:29] Much of math is derived without the law of contradiction. [04:29] I'm not sure what you mean. [04:29] jonsey the LofC is pre-mathmatical, it is an a priori [04:29] There are lots of constructive type proofs. [04:29] jonsey HAHAHHAH [04:29] jonsey you can't THINK wihout the LofC [04:29] try it [04:29] There are many axioms in math, does that make them premathematical?? [04:29] you can't do it [04:29] You are just trying to define things away [04:29] Typical philosopher. [04:29] jonsey name me one that does not rely on the lofC? [04:29] Totally useless at real world tasks [04:29] fallacy [04:29] Jonesey: your argument this evening is quite philosophical in nature. [04:29] Whacking off on word games. [04:29] attackt he source ignore the arguement [04:29] great tactic [04:29] MrBell (Micah@ppp23.ihug.co.nz) joined #apologetics. [04:29] jonsey it is word games when I talk but not when youtalk? [04:29] Disconnected from Norman.OK.US.undernet.org [04:29] Attempting connection to Manhattan.KS.US.undernet.org:6667 [04:29] Successful connection to Manhattan.KS.US.undernet.org [04:29] ApoloBot joined #Apologetics. [04:30] I don't believe in science as a method for arriving at truth. [04:30] jonsey then how does one arrive at truth? [04:30] Jonesey: Go to #philosophy for a debate with real philosophers (tm) ;) [04:30] I see it as a method for building models which increasingly accurately model experiment [04:30] disbelief in science as a method for arriving at truth is a philosophical presupposition. [04:30] Good, jonesey! [04:30] jonsesy is that a true or false proposition? [04:30] That's what science is. [04:31] Acolyte:Yes, it is, because I said so. [04:31] jonsey logical fallacy, appeal to authority [04:31] Philosophy is a way of arriving at the Truth. [04:31] tyry again [04:31] jonsey youa re commiting just about every informal logically fallacy in the book [04:31] Yes, but I appealed to the highest authority on the channel. [04:31] wish to try ad ignoratum next? [04:32] jonsey so? still invalid logically [04:32] philosophy doesn't arrive at shit. [04:32] watcht eh language [04:32] yes, I'm watching it [04:32] It's right there on my screen [04:32] Watch it too [04:32] Incorrect, it arrives at greater understanding of human nature and the nature of reality. [04:32] Jonesey!Quantum@al.dialup.access.net kicked by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Acolyte [04:32] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) joined #apologetics. [04:33] I said watch it, capiche? [04:33] Biology arrives at greater understanding of human nature [04:33] Action: FauxReal watches Acolyte say, "*I* have the power!" [04:33] I told you, we're both watching it, capiche? [04:33] jonsey assuming a naturlaistic paradigm yes [04:33] Jonesey!Quantum@al.dialup.access.net kicked by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: Go somewhere else to be an ass [04:33] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) joined #apologetics. [04:33] hehe [04:33] No, biology arrives at greater understanding of living systems. [04:33] Acolyte:What medical advances has philosophy given us? [04:33] jonsey why does it need to? [04:34] jonsey what ethical advaneces has science given us? none [04:34] Plenty [04:34] jonsey what good is science if you don't know how it OUGHT ot be used? [04:34] jonsey name one please [04:34] It sure has given us lots of questions about ethics, though. [04:34] Now we can see that ethics is a purely natural phenomenon, arising even in the animal kingdom [04:34] fauxreal true [04:34] HAHAHHAHAHHAHAH [04:34] jonsey if thatis true then you end up with ethical nihilism [04:34] Jonesey: science is what we know, philosophy is the examination of reasoning and grounds for knowledge. [04:34] What! Jonesey, I think not. [04:35] jonsey youc annot derive an ought form an is, sorry [04:35] Pascoe: No, *that*'s epistemology! [04:35] You're the ethical nihilist..you are coercive, for example. [04:35] W (cservice@undernet.org) joined #Apologetics. [04:35] Yes, you can, if you feel like it. [04:35] jonsey how am I an ethical nihilist? [04:35] Mode change '+o W ' by okc2.ok.us.undernet.org [04:35] YOu kicked me off the channel, for no good reason. [04:35] I had a good reason, youdid not comply with channel rules [04:35] Mode change '+o ApoloBot ' by W!cservice@undernet.org [04:35] That was coercive [04:36] so? [04:36] FauxReal: epistemology is philosophy. [04:36] Where are the channel rules? [04:36] We're not here to serve rules [04:36] Especially invisible ones [04:36] jonsey then go [04:36] that you arbitrarily impose [04:36] fine go somewhere else then [04:36] OK, bye! [04:36] Jonesey (Quantum@al.dialup.access.net) left #apologetics. [04:36] geez what an ass [04:36] pascoe: That's like saying computers are IBMs. IT's the other way around. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy, not the whole. [04:37] faux correct [04:37] Acolyte: watch your language :P [04:37] Indeed, ac. [04:37] :> [04:37] mrbell ok jerk [04:37] twit [04:37] FauxReal: I am using the definition of philosophy used on this campus. sorry if it is too narrow. 8) [04:37] dope [04:37] pascoe: Yep. Switch schools. [04:37] Much better Acolyte.... [04:37] pascoe it is too incorrect is all [04:38] well I should really go [04:38] bye Acolyte. 8) [04:38] I wonder if jonesey is a teacher. [04:38] bye aco :) [04:38] have fun [04:38] FauxReal: how does your school define philosophy? [04:38] faux what an ignorant teacher then [04:38] I don't know. I've never taken a philosophy course at my school. [04:38] pax [04:38] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left irc: Leaving [04:39] FauxReal: but my definition is wrong? 8) ok. [04:39] Krai (iris@prism.com) left irc: Krai [04:39] Pas: Yes. [04:39] Godbless bbl :) [04:39] MrBell (Micah@ppp23.ihug.co.nz) left #apologetics. [04:39] FauxReal: I'll have to tell the department to change their catalog. [04:40] Philosophy is the inquiry into the most comprehensive principles of reality in general, or of some limited sector of it *such as* human... [04:40] knowledge or human values. [04:40] Jonesey: science is what we know, philosophy is the examination of reasoning and grounds for knowledge. [04:40] i.e. epistemology and ethics. [04:41] That is only the epistemological branch of philosophy. [04:42] FauxReal: I didn't give the complete definition of philosophy (which would include morals) because I wanted to stress the connection with science. [04:42] We're the only ones here. [04:42] Then you should just have said epistemology. [04:43] FauxReal: epistemology is philosophy. 8) [04:43] but philosophy is not epistemology. =) [04:43] FauxReal: but, I didn't say it was. 8) [04:44] FauxReal: I think you just want to argue. 8) [04:44] You implied it. I was just filling it out. [04:44] I can't argue here... [04:44] I don't have an audience! [04:44] FauxReal: the discussion was the connection of philosophy to science, not philosophy to ethics. so don't get too picky. 8) [04:45] Sorry, I'm always picky on IRC. [04:45] I guess I should lighten up on you people. I can't expect everyone to go by my standards. [04:46] FauxReal: I would be too if I was offering $100 to people who disagreed with me all the time. 8) [04:46] That's true, pas. [04:46] Where'd you get your nick, anyway? [04:46] it was given to me by my parents. [04:46] Ah. For what? [04:46] its my last name. 8) [04:47] Oh. [04:47] Anything interesting going on in #bible? [04:47] no, silence. [04:47] I should go read my email too. bye for now. [04:47] pascoe (pasc8891@xslip97.csrv.uidaho.edu) left #apologetics. [04:47] Ah. Well, I think I'll head over to #Philosophy. [04:48] FauxReal (ZCLL4@ETSU.east-tenn-st.edu) left #APOLOGETICS. ---------------------------------------------------------- [TANDEM BOT LINK: #biblechat] ProfG: @@@ matt 21 5 logos6: Mat21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. (KJV) ProfG: Working miracles: ProfG: @@@ isa 35 5 6 ProfG: uh oh, is the bot lagged, or am I? ProfG: @@@ matt 11 4 6 hapi: bot Ferrago: the bot. i think ProfG: oh good logos6: Isa35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. (KJV) ProfG: I mean, *not* good logos6: Isa35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. (KJV) hapi: 32 seconds... Ferrago: ok, well true, jesus was predicted....and that came true Ferrago: but, what about god, and his form, what does he entail, spirit, / body ? ProfG: There's a LOT more, which could ONLY have been fulfilled by the TRUE Messiah, who could ONLY have come from the TRUE God hapi: @@@ John 30 10 hapi: er... hapi: @@@ John 10 30 ProfG: God is a Spirit ProfG: bot lag, hapi :( Ferrago: but then how does he exist? hapi: God is threefold :) Ferrago: what is his aim? logos6: John21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught. (KJV) hapi: Father, Son and Holy Ghost... logos6: John10:30 I and my Father are one. (KJV) ProfG: how does He exist? Ferrago: if he a spirit..... Ferrago: slike a ghost?? ProfG: a ghost? ProfG: God is all-powerful, not like any ghost *I've* heard of! :-) Ferrago: heh, if he exists. then he must take a form, ProfG: brb, gotta dry off my wet 1 year old :-) hapi: hehehe :) You have been marked as being away Ferrago: heh ok :) hapi: I think that sometimes we get too caught up in what He should look like..we are made in His image, though :) hapi: @@@ Genesis 1 26 27 logos6: Ge1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the eart logos6: h. (KJV) logos6: Ge1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (KJV) Ferrago: his intellecual image /mental image, but not physical Ferrago: ok heres a question.... Ferrago: what does he do... hapi: I'm not God...how do I know? :) hapi: hehehehe ;) Philos is now known as MasterQ Ferrago: heh true hapi: He gives us the chance for eternal life in Heaven :) hapi: He is ready for us to come to Him in times of distress and times of joy :) hapi: He wants to hear about *from us* what we are hapi about and sad about hapi: Hewants us to lvoe Him and others unconditionally hapi: He wants us to be His :) Ferrago: how about the BIG question......... Ferrago: Why? hapi: even bigger... hapi: why not? :) hapi: why not believe in something that *only* prmotes good? :) hapi: s/prmotes/promotes :) hapi: there is nothing about God that is bad! :) Ferrago: why create us.....why give us the choice... hapi: He's *aaaaaaaaaaaaaall* Good! :) You are no longer marked as being away ProfG: back hapi: because He wanted to ;0 hapi: :) hapi: hehehehe :) Ferrago: but i do beleive.....just not in Him ProfG: Ferrago: what do you believe? Ferrago: it seems to much effort for that.. hapi: why is it hard to believe in Him? hapi: He made good... hapi: too much effort to go to heaven? :) ProfG: Ferrago: what do you believe? hapi weighsthe options...heaven...hell....heaven....hell... hapi: HEAVEN WINS :) Ferrago: I beleive in Peace and honesty and all the crap that is disapearing ....probably the same as you ProfG: yes, but there is a difference: Ferrago: hapi: no too much effort for god ProfG: there is no *reason* to believe in that "crap" if you don't believe in God Ferrago: yes, there is ProfG: if there is no God, then there is no standard of absolute values ProfG: so why believe in "Peace and honesty and all the crap"? Ferrago: cause if you don`t beleive it is the way to live....then the world would be a place of violence and missery ProfG: Ferrago: so? ProfG: what makes that type of world wrong? hapi: but what do you think made us believe in goodness? Ferrago: So, i don`t wanna live in a world like that..where you gett mugged etc...murdered... ProfG: you don't "want" to, but what makes such a world wrong? Ferrago: cause there is no harmony, and peace.....because .... Ferrago: becuase, there is no trust. ProfG: so what? what makes harmony, peace, and trust *right*??? Ferrago: cause it`s my opinion....and if i thought it was wrong i would beleive in something else Ferrago: it`s right to me hapi: but where did you get the idea that itwas/is right for you? Ferrago: you tell me :) hapi: I can't :) hapi: I'm not you :) hapi: ;) ProfG: Ferrago: what if it's not right for someone else? Is it ok then for them to promote discord, war, and lack of trust? Ferrago: heh Ferrago: no. prof, majority rules :) ProfG: if the majority are opposed to peace, is peace therefore wrong? ProfG: if the majority favor killing Jews, is killing Jews ok? ProfG: Ferrago, Might Makes Right??? Ferrago: ahhh, but it has always been that way Ferrago: i mean ProfG: not asking that Ferrago: values, not majority Ferrago: wait.. Ferrago: i beleive in what i beleive because that is what i have been taught to beleive in hapi: who taught you? ProfG: but we need to *examine* what we believe; if our beliefs are self-contradictory, we need to reassess them Ferrago: teachers / parents / myself / society hapi: how many Christians do you know? hapi: parents...? teachers...? friends...? Ferrago: hmm hard to tell...... Ferrago: about 50 % Ferrago: of people i know hapi: do you thinkg that their beliefs have rubbed off on you any? :) Ferrago: yes.... ProfG: if we believe in right and wrong as absolute standards, and we don't believe in God, then we are living self-contradictory lives ProfG: some call this "hypocrisy" hapi: and Who do youthink taughtthem? :) Ferrago: that is certain ProfG: brb, daughter's bedtime Ferrago: prof, i dissagree You have been marked as being away hapi: Ferrago, do you believe inteh devil hapi: the devil? Ferrago: hapi: nope hapi: ProfG is a family man :) Ferrago: well, yes hapi: yes or no? :) Ferrago: i beleive that the devil is the evil in us all Ferrago: but not that he exists hapi: do youthink the devil is a being? Ferrago: it is a name tag Ferrago: nope hapi: so..youthink God is a nametag? Ferrago: yep :) You are no longer marked as being away ProfG: back hapi: putthat tag on a body :) ProfG: Ferrago: you say "the evil in us all"... please tell me how you judge what is "evil" and what is "good" Ferrago: selfishness / mean etc.... evil Ferrago: kind / patince = good ProfG: no, not what your *definition* - HOW you determine what is good and evil Ferrago: bad spelling - life ProfG: what is your standard of judgment? Ferrago: heh. myself Ferrago: comparision Ferrago: how else ProfG: I see. Then what if someone disagrees with you on what is good and evil? How do you determine who is correct? Ferrago: that depends ProfG: yes? Ferrago: say you have a different opinion then i respect that Ferrago: but if you steal from someone, i would judge it as wrong hapi: (judge not lest ye be judged...) hapi: (an eye for an eye...) ProfG: ok, let's say my opinion is that ppl who have the nickname of Ferrago should be put to death. Where do we go from here? Ferrago: heh, i`m human, hapi: (thou shall not steal...) :) Ferrago: then i would think you are totally insane, i would ignore you ProfG: that's fine, but how do we determine whether I am right or not? Ferrago: cause i would think you are wrong.... Ferrago: my opinion Ferrago: my opions vs your opinion Ferrago: two opinions Ferrago: that it Ferrago: but that is good ProfG: Ferrago, please understand where I'm coming from here; if you don't have *objective* standards of right and wrong, then there can BE no right or wrong in an absolute sense, so we end up with nihilism and anarchy and a worse off world ProfG: but in a non-theistic worldview, there can BE no objective standards of right and wrong ProfG: yet, most non-theists believe in right and wrong ProfG: Ferrago: was Hitler wrong to kill 6 million Jews? ProfG: Ferrago: was slavery in the Old South wrong? Ferrago: but. Ferrago: your standards are the 10 commandments Ferrago: and the teachings Ferrago: prof: of course Ferrago: yep Ferrago: wrong ProfG: Ferrago: prove it, please Ferrago: you prove it Ferrago: can you? ProfG: I can prove it is wrong by referencing the Bible, as you know. But how can *you* prove it to be wrong? ProfG: you see, *my* worldview allows absolute standards of right and wrong. How can yours? Ferrago: in the absolute sence, it is imposible ProfG: That is correct. ProfG: So, we have no right to say that Hitler was wrong. ProfG: Or chattel slavery. ProfG: UNLESS we have absolute standards of right and wrong. ProfG: Do you see where I'm getting at? Ferrago: but how can you prove the ten commandment to be absolute? ProfG: where = what Ferrago: yes i do ProfG: OK... ProfG: Let me just say this... ProfG: I respect your openness and honesty in questioning the truth of the Bible... Ferrago: thankyou ProfG: It is certainly your privilege not to believe it, and I would fight for that right on your part... ProfG: But I would like to ask you a question. Ferrago: ok :) ProfG: The main message of the Bible, which has been unquestionably the most important literary work in human history, is how a person may have eternal life. So... ProfG: what I would like to know is... ProfG: what do you understand that the Bible teaches about how a person may have eternal life and go to heaven? Ferrago: hmm well.. nope ProfG: no, I mean, what is your *understanding* of what the Bible teaches about how a person may have eternal life and go to heaven? Ferrago: ahh, by living life accoeding to gods rules...10 commands etc.. ProfG: I see... ok... ProfG: That's just what I was afraid of, Ferrago. You have rejected the Bible without even understanding its main message, for your answer is not only incorrect, but it is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches... ProfG: Now, don't you think that a more intellectual approach would be to let me share with you what the Scriptures teach on this subject, and then you can make an intelligent decision whether to reject or accept it? Ferrago: sure... ProfG: Great! ok... ProfG: After hearing your statement, I know that I have some REALLY GREAT NEWS for you... Ferrago: I bet :) ProfG: in fact, I would go so far as to say that you are going to hear the greatest good news that you have ever heard in your whole life! That's quite a statement, isn't it? Ferrago: 1 q ProfG: HEAVEN is a FREE GIFT ProfG: It is not EARNED or DESERVED ProfG: let me tell you something... Ferrago: it is. Ferrago: .. ProfG: a large part of my life I felt exactly as you do. I thought if I was ever to get to heaven I'd have to earn it. I'd have to become good enough, and work for it and deserve it... ProfG: And then I discovered something that absolutely amazed me. I discovered that heaven is absolutely a FREE GIFT - it is unearned, unmerited,and undeserved. It's FREE! ProfG: take a look at this: ProfG: @@@ rom 6 23 ProfG: c'mon bot logos6: Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV) ProfG: "the gift of God is eternal life" ProfG: isn't that amazing? Ferrago: yes,,,,but is it possible...? ProfG: this isn't just the way it IS... ProfG: it's the only way it *could* be... ProfG: let me show you why ProfG: The Bible teaches us that all of us have sinned, that there is not one of us good enough to get into heaven because God's standard is perfection! ProfG: If we have to be good enough, Jesus says we would have to be perfect: ProfG: @@@ matt 5 48 ProfG: @@@ rom 3 23 logos6: Mat5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (KJV) logos6: Rom3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (KJV) ProfG: In our thoughts, in our words, in our deeds - we have all failed to keep his commandments both by sins of commission and by sins of omission - that is, by the things we have done and the things that we have left undone... ProfG: This is the reason that none of us can earn his way into heaven. We can't save ourselves... ProfG: @@@ eph 2 8 9 logos6: Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (KJV) logos6: Eph2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV) ProfG: *not of works* ProfG: The problem of man trying to save himself becomes even more acute when we look at what the Bible says about God... ProfG: We know that God is merciful and loving, gracious and kind, but the same Bible says that the same God is also just and holy and righteous; that is is of purer eyes than to look upon sin; that he must punish sin... ProfG: The Bible says that God is angry with the wicked every day and that he has commanded all men everywhere to repent... ProfG: Of course, we know the Bible teaches that God is loving and merciful and gracious. He doesn't want to punish us... ProfG: He must deal with sin but he doesn't want to punish us because he loves us... ProfG: Now what is the answer to this dilemma? well... ProfG: God in his infinite wisdom devised a solution. ProfG: God sent His Son into the world to solve this problem for man. ProfG: So, who is Jesus Christ?... ProfG: According to the Bible, Jesus Christ is God, the second person of the Trinity, the Creator of the Universe... ProfG: @@@ john 1 1 ProfG: @@@ john 1 14 logos6: John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (KJV) logos6: John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV) ProfG: God came down into human flesh. ProfG: What did he come to do?... ProfG: The whole Bible is about one great transaction. ProfG: Imagine I have a book in my right hand, containing a minutely detailed account of our life: Signoff: hapi (Leaving) ProfG: everything we've ever done, all of our sins, all of our thoughts, all of our motives, everything we've ever done in secret - all are recorded in this book... Ferrago: yeah ProfG: The Bible says that someday the books will be opened and everybody will know all about us... ProfG: That's going to be a red-faced day for many! :-) ProfG: I'm convinced of one thing: if any man is judged according to the things recorded in the book of his life, he will be condemned. Ferrago: for all. ProfG: This book in my right hand is our problem, you see, our sin. ProfG: It's our sin upon us like a great burden... hapi (~ssparaci@medea.gp.usm.edu) has joined channel #biblechat ProfG: This keeps us out of heaven. This prevents us from rising up to God. So what's going to be done with that? hapi is tired of phone calls... ProfG: In the Old Testament, God's provision for sin was described in all the foreshadowing and types... Ferrago: he gonner chuck it? ProfG: John the Baptist announced that God's Lamb had finally come. Then Jesus Christ fulfilled the mission that was his. ProfG: What was that mission? Well, ProfG: simply, it is described right here: ProfG: @@@ isa 53 6 logos6: Isa53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (KJV) ProfG: pretend my left hand is Jesus Christ (no, really ;-) ProfG: The Bible says God placed all our sins on Jesus, so transfer the book in my right hand to my left hand... ProfG: He has laid to the account of Christ our guilt, our sin - the sin which God hates. God has imputed or laid upon Christ our sins... ProfG: Then I read something which as a parent really astounded me: ProfG: @@@ isa 53 10 ProfG: @@@ isa 53 4 logos6: Isa53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (KJV) logos6: Isa53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (KJV) Ferrago: but that sucks! ProfG: God poured out all of his wrath for sin on his own Son. ProfG: Christ in our place, as our substitute, paid the penalty for sin... ProfG: and he says that he goes to prepare a place for us: Ferrago: cause that means that in gods eyes every future murder / crime has already been paid for ProfG: @@@ john 14 2 logos6: John14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (KJV) ProfG: in a way, and we can talk about that in a sec... hapi: *only* if you have accepted Him and ask for forgiveness! ProfG: He purchased a place for us in heaven, is the point. ProfG: Ferrago, the wonderful thing is that this place in heaven Christ purchased for us he offers to us freely as a gift... ProfG: remember: ProfG: @@@ rom 6 23 logos6: Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (KJV) ProfG: By his grace, he freely offers to give to us this gift of heaven ProfG: so, how do receive it? ProfG: well... ProfG: remember: ProfG: @@@ eph 2 8 logos6: Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (KJV) ProfG: Faith is the key that opens the door to heaven. ProfG: Someone once said that faith is the empty hand of a beggar receiving the gift of a king ProfG: I like that :-) ProfG: Many ppl think that they have faith, but they really don't know what it is... Ferrago: heh poetic :) ProfG: Let's see what faith is *not*... ProfG: Many ppl believe that Jesus lived and died and rose again. And they suppose that this is faith... ProfG: But this is merely an *intellectual assent* to certain historical facts. ProfG: The Bible teaches us that even the devil believes in Christ in this way. But that won't do... ProfG: Other ppl think that they have faith in Christ, but when you ask them what they really mean, they are only trusting in Christ for the temporal things of life... ProfG: such as health, or their children, or their finances, or strength, or guidance - the things that have to do only with this life that we live right here... ProfG: But what the Bible means by faith is *trusting in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation* - resting our hope of eternal life in Christ. ProfG: Christ didn't come down here merely to get us through an appendicitis operation or to get us safely on a plane to New York... ProfG: Christ came to get us to heaven that we might have eternal life. ProfG: Faith is trusting in Jesus Christ *alone* for our salvation. ProfG: Ppl trust in only one of two things: Ferrago: why? ProfG: either in themselves or in Christ. ProfG: why what? Ferrago: why create us why do any of it? ProfG: good question, and one that I think you'll see will be answered... ProfG: You see, I was trusting in the same thing that you mentioned you thought the Bible taught us to trust in - in my own efforts to try to live a good enough life... ProfG: Then I realized that if I could get myself into heaven this way, I would save myself; ProfG: and if I could save myself I would be my savior; ProfG: and if I were my savior then I would be in competition with Jesus Christ who claimed to be the Savior of the world. ProfG: what I need to do was to cease trusting in myself and start trusting in Jesus Christ... ProfG: And so, years ago, sincerely and repentantly, I did just that, and I received the gift of eternal life... ProfG: I didn't deserve it then, and I don't deserve it now, but by His grace I have it! ProfG: Let me give a little illustration... ProfG: is there a chair in the room you are in besides the one you are sitting in? Ferrago: er... lets assume the bed :) ProfG: Do you believe that that bed exists? Ferrago: no Ferrago: I know it exists ProfG: ok... ProfG: Do you believe that it will hold you if you sit on it? Ferrago: yes ProfG: It's not holding you now. How could you prove you believe it exists and can hold you? Ferrago: i know where your coming from profg, ProfG: really, how can you prove it can hold you? ProfG: seriously Ferrago: so you say beleive in jesus and putting your faith in Jesus is like the bed ProfG: humor me on this one Ferrago: by sitting on it ProfG: ok, let the bed represent Jesus Christ (no, really, again :-) ProfG: For a long time, I believed He existed and could help me, but I did not have eternal life because I was trusting my own good works to get me into heaven... ProfG: Remember what you said you understood the Bible taught on how to get into heaven? Following the Ten ProfG: commandments, etc.? ProfG: "I have to follow the Ten Commandments" Ferrago: yep ProfG: "I have to be a good person" ProfG: "I have to try to do the best I can" ProfG: along those lines, yes? Ferrago: remove the " :) Ferrago: yep ProfG: Who is the only person referred to there? Ferrago: I ProfG: Who were you trusting in to get you to heaven if you believed that? Ferrago: i was not expecting heavan Ferrago: i don`t know enough about it to know weather i want it ProfG: let's assume for the time being that heaven is more desirable than any other place :-) hapi: in comparison to eternal damnationand burning...you DEFINATELY want heaven :) ProfG: heh Ferrago: Prof, Ferrago: i gonner have to cut a short Ferrago: a = ya ProfG: Ferrago, one more minute... Ferrago: ok...i am listening, kjust losing concientration :) ProfG: ok, just this ProfG: does what I've explained to you make sense to you? ProfG: To receive eternal life, you must *transfer* your trust from yourself to Christ, etc.? Ferrago: yes, Ferrago: yup ProfG: I mean, basically, you've just heard the greatest story ever told, about the greatest offer ever made, by the greatest Person who ever lived... ProfG: and, in all seriousness, Ferrago... hapi: and still lives ;) ProfG: I may never "meet" you again... ProfG: The real question is this: ProfG: Do *you* want to receive this gift of eternal life that Christ left heaven and died on a cross to give you? Ferrago: if the other option is burining the yes, but what is this eternal life? we know so little of it, do we have to trust him on this too? ProfG: the Bible tells us that it is " hapi: eternal life/heaven is the reward :) ProfG: life more abundant" ProfG: better than the spiritual death we have otherwise hapi: Ferrago, if you were to die tonight..where would you go? hapi: heaven? ProfG: it's not *just* heaven after we die - it is REAL life with Him in the here and now hapi: or hell? hapi: that question is quite rhetorical...you do not have to answer us....answer yourself... Ferrago: i would go to hell, is it is all true.. Ferrago: is = if hapi: do you want to go to hell? Ferrago: nope :( Ferrago: :O) ProfG: The choice is yours, Ferrago. God loves you so much that he offers that choice to you. He will respect your decision to go to hell. But He doesn't want you to. hapi: Ferrago, Jesus wants you :) ProfG: Ferrago, you can choose *right now* to accept God's offer of eternal life. Ferrago: if i beleive i go to heavan hapi: He is here wanting you to turn ti Him right now and say, "Lord, I'm Yours!" :) Ferrago: if i don`t i go to hell ProfG: It's not a coincidence that you are talking to hapi and I tonight on IRC. Ferrago: what if i don`t believe in hell does that make a difference?? ProfG: Ferrago: what if you don't believe in gravity, does that make a difference when you jump off a 100 story bldg? hapi: just because you do not believe in something dfoes not make it not exist... Ferrago: profg, good answer Ferrago: ignorance is afterall no excuse ProfG: God is offering you this gift *right now*, Ferrago ProfG: The question I believe He is asking you is: "Do you want to receive this gift right now?" hapi: Ferrago, do you want it? :) Ferrago: of course hapi: It's yours for the taking :) ProfG: Then you can, right now. Ferrago: profg, changin ones opions after 20 years aint easy, but i will think in this when i awake, hapi: Ferrago, He will not leave you...ever Ferrago: i`ll read the log, but what you`ve said has clarified alot ProfG: God is here, right now, and we can go to Him in prayer and we can tell him that you want to cease trusting in your own strivings and you want to put your trust in Christ the Lord for your salvation and receive Him as your personal Savior... ProfG: you don't have to wait, Ferrago, though you can choose to of course ProfG: but no one has a guarantee of tomorrow hapi: Ferrago, you have two people right here right now most willingto do what you wantto help... ProfG: and we would be happy to pray with and for you ProfG is lagged... [22:29] Disconnected from Norman.OK.US.undernet.org [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_4_3_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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