[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96 [00:14] dev
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apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96
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[00:34] Mode change '+o Cassidy_ ' by W!cservice@undernet.org
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#apologetics.
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[00:54] masterq (ask@ppp66.ionline.net) joined #apologetics.
[00:54] hello anyone in?
[00:55] hello?
[00:55] hey masterq
[00:56] ao what is up?
[00:56] not much. You see its slow.
[00:57] Ya, I guess so. Not to many people
want to think about God rationally
[00:57] no, its rather difficult on the brain.
The task is left to the few.
[00:57] Wow 25 second ping!
[00:57] Where do you go to church (if at all)?
[00:58] I don't for the time being
[00:58] better change servers.
[00:58] Sometimes I go to the local gathering
[00:58] master...is there a specific reason?
Not tryin to pry, just curious.
[00:58] local?
[00:59] reason for what?
[00:59] for not attending a church at preesent.
[01:00] I often don't have the time, and sometimes
it seems pointless
[01:00] don't get me wrong...
[01:00] I believe in God, strongly
[01:00] hmmmm...like I said, I wasn't tryin
to pry. I trust you have your explanations.
[01:01] Ardubya (ARDUBYA@www-26-78.gnn.com) joined
#apologetics.
[01:01] Not really, I have no real reason just
excuses
[01:01] mast, do a /whois on me and try my
server. 1 sec ping time.
[01:02] hey ard.
[01:02] hi
[01:02] how'w everything tonight|?
[01:02] mast...Im glad to hear you make that
distinction!
[01:02] Ard...better than most, not as good
as some. And you?
[01:03] I know that I have no excuse, you see
to mem knowledge is every thing
[01:03] not getting ahead, not falling behind
[01:03] then why does "belief" persist in the
face of knowldege
[01:04] master...I didn't quite understand
your last post..............
[01:04] Ard? belief is a necessary componant
of knowledge.
[01:04] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) joined #apologetics.
[01:04] well, to know what is right and what
is wrong, why we do things and who or what God is,
to me is very important.
[01:04] true, even the scientific method is
no more than a system of belief
[01:04] reality itself is subsective
[01:04] oh...to YOU knowledge is everything...OK
I understand.
[01:05] all our
[01:05] In that sense let Me ammend MY last
post...
[01:05] data is filtered individually through
our senses
[01:05] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) left #apologetics.
[01:06] Ard...true...is it knowledge tho.
Can it be justified?
[01:06] Ard...yeah...
[01:06] survival is the individual's biological
imperative, learning is a function of that
[01:08] Ard...really? How then is there sacrafice?
[01:08] you mean like for the "greater good"
[01:08] master...jump in if you so please...BTW
I think knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for
*faith* in God.
[01:10] Ard...no..I mean why is it that we
often voilate our biological "progrAmming" and do things
like make sacrafices...i.e., be merciful where we could
justifyably seek vengence?
[01:10] faith or belief in "god" is an emergent
property of a constantly evolving "complex adaptive
system" called the human brain
[01:11] _Mick_ (ddavidso@206.75.117.5) joined #apologetics.
[01:11] <_Mick_> so yall think the bible is fiction?
[01:11] BTW, I am still here!
[01:11] of course it is. it is a great work
of parable, and a treasure of human culture and ethics
[01:12] Ard...you talk like a flower...but
thats OK! I can translate. Your personal commentary
on the brains processees is a bit earily for our debate...but
I can adapt.
[01:12] it is not the "word of god" but the word
of men who believe in god
[01:12] <_Mick_> yup
[01:12] it is BELIEF itself that gives god
his power
[01:12] <_Mick_> word of some dumb insane motherfuckers
[01:13] So you are an existentailist?
[01:13] i am a realist
[01:13] <_Mick_> what's that, i'm only 14 :)
[01:13] Mick...cut the language, eh?
[01:13] and i am a romantic
[01:13] <_Mick_> sorry about the language, the telecommunications
act doesn't affect me :)
[01:14] Ard....you have given about fifty
conclusions.....start building a case already.
[01:14] the linguistic limitations of labeling
onself leaves me confused
[01:14] <_Mick_> hehe
[01:14] a case for what?
[01:14] Mick...The rules of this channel will
if you dont play it cool/.
[01:14] Mick...The rules of this channel will
if you dont play it cool/.
[01:14] <_Mick_> understand
[01:15] Ard...all the statements you were
making. I dont care which one you decide to argue for...just
pick one and go with it, huh?
[01:15] <_Mick_> but the bot didn't tell me a set of
rules so i assumed there were none
[01:16] Mick...I just did. Thats why I warned
you instead of kicking you.
[01:16] <_Mick_> ok, thank you
[01:16] Dont mention it.
[01:16] Mick: this is a cool place , you can
have your say without judgement.
[01:16] as man evolves, he, and his societies
become more "complex"
[01:16] I am enjoying your comments, please
continue!
[01:17] <_Mick_> know what "pisses me off" is that people
that believe in god are so narrow minded
[01:17] same here
[01:17] thats right...try pullin the stuff
in #bible that people pull in here.....Youd be banned
for life.
[01:17] there is a physical law, in thermdynamics
that states that entrophy always increases
[01:17] <_Mick_> so is everyone here over 18 besides
me?
[01:17] Ard...ya...
[01:18] <_Mick_> brb parents need me
[01:18] I am 21
[01:18] orderly system tend to become more
disordered
[01:18] But I had the same thoughts when I
was about 14-16
[01:18] Ard...continue.
[01:19] have you ever heard of "chaos theory|"
[01:19] Ard...yes.
[01:19] yes
[01:19] Well, an offshoot of that is the new
"science" called "complexity"
[01:20] there is, in some cases, order at the
edge of chaos.
[01:20] Ard...Ive talked to scientists who
have studied the theory at length who were unwilling
to fit the chaos theory into a worldview like I fear
you are going to attempt....
[01:20] there are what is called "complex adaptive
systems"
[01:21] human "culture" is one of these
[01:21] the individual human's brain is another
[01:21] <_Mick_> Mormon(i am from the area where the
mormons settled in canada) believe that we are actually
deteriorating (in contrast to evolving)
[01:22] that, as seen from a stern, and highly
judgemental, moral perspective
[01:22] <_Mick_> uhhhh, what?
[01:22] <_Mick_> are you guys scientists :)
[01:23] I do math
[01:23] <_Mick_> me too :)
[01:23] <_Mick_> i am a grade higher that normal in math
[01:23] are you in school?
[01:23] <_Mick_> grade 9
[01:23] cool
[01:23] do you have a computer in your class
[01:24] <_Mick_> surprised?
[01:24] Just checking on clinton
[01:24] Question: What use is God?
[01:24] Mick: Canada - Where?
[01:24] Ard...so, Now you're going to tell
me why I should consider one societies ethical system
superior or more valuable than anothers...or one individuals
ethical beliefs more valuable than anothers. (I hope...)
[01:25] he made a pretty good living for Jim
and Tammy FAye
[01:25] <_Mick_> next year i have to do a speech in front
of the school that is highly controversial
[01:25] <_Mick_> guess what my topic is
[01:25] what
[01:25] <_Mick_> why the bible should be moved to the
fiction section :)
[01:25] <_Mick_> that's bound to piss a "few" people off
:)
[01:26] Excellent topic.
[01:26] <_Mick_> thank you :)
[01:26] be careful, those crazy fundmentalists
might shoot you
[01:26] <_Mick_> but at least i died sane :)
[01:26] true, but sad anyway
[01:27] I don;t know. What is wrong with the
Bible?
[01:27] I am a spiritual person, but I don't
do dogma.
[01:27] <_Mick_> were not all athiests here?
[01:27] It seems too many people are too willing
to dismiss it without much reflection
[01:28] Ard...perhaps you can tell me why
humans have the capacity to decide between forgiveness
or resentment when they are made up of essentially
the same particals as anything else in the universe.
Why dont we run helplessly toward o
ur "programming" as water flows toward the ocean?
[01:28] <_Mick_> good point
[01:28] Mick: Where are you from? Canada?
[01:28] <_Mick_> yup, Canada
[01:28] <_Mick_> can ya tell?
[01:28] aye..
[01:28] because we are highly specialized,
"evolved" beings. We are "complex" and "adaptive"
[01:29] Action: _Mick_ lol
[01:29] MIck: Where abouts, I am Canadian too!
[01:29] <_Mick_> Alberta
[01:29] Ha, I am from Ontario!
[01:29] Ard...fine but how is it that we have
the freedom to do something that doesn't reflect a
hint of self preservation?
[01:30] We are "endowed by our creator with
certain inalienable rights" etc.
[01:30] Ard...fine but how is it that we have
the freedom to do something that doesn't reflect a
hint of self preservation?
[01:30] <_Mick_> but who's to say that creatures don't
believe in something, have you asked a cat what he
believes in
[01:31] my freedom is not given to me by any
government. it is my natural birthright
[01:31] Says who?
[01:31] My cat believes she's hungry
[01:31] Is it not the right of the strong to
dominate the weak
[01:31] Thomas Jefferson for one
[01:31] <_Mick_> that is what it looks like to us, but
what does it look like to them?
[01:31] To use whatever resources to his advantage
[01:31] Ard...why do you suppose you have
that birthright? what if you were a jew in Germany
during WWII?
[01:32] for survival?
[01:32] I have the right to struggle to survive.
I have a "right" to be here on this planet, to breathe
the air, to drink the water and to hunt and gather
the food
[01:33] survival of whom? My sense of survival
doesn't necessitate me to consider others as having
the same rights as I have.
[01:33] As much right as any other living being
[01:33] Ard...why? What ever gave you that
Idea?
[01:33] NO, but it is the rational ,and practical
thing to do
[01:33] But, if we are not here for any purpose
other than survival, you have no right beyond dominace
or subseriviece.
[01:33] There can be no freedom
[01:34] Ard...why should I, or our culture,
consider those rights to be valuable?
[01:34] Only a struggle to escape death and
complete slavery of the will and body
[01:34] I am free to do anything for which
I am willing to assume the responsibility
[01:35] Ard...listen...if Im a level in the
evolutionary scale, then Its the survival of the fittest,
just like an animal. Dog eat dog. The big fish eat
the little fish.
[01:35] Hammer to skull etc...
[01:36] There can be no morality
[01:36] what i'm saying is that "free will" is
part of our biological makup
[01:36] Ard...why? all you pronouncements
are descriptice, not prescriptive as an ethical debate
demands.
[01:36] The american constitution is a decent
attempt to create social ethics that transcend "morality"
[01:37] The consitution is based on christian
morality
[01:37] Ard...where does the ability to *choose*
come from in a universe of matter in motion? Can water
choose to flow uphill? What else in nature can go completely
against natural laws?
[01:38] It did not attemppt to transcend it.
Rather imbrace it.
[01:38] Ard...why ought we to consider *rights*
more valuable than authoritarian dominance?
[01:39] Cass: Good point
[01:39] mast...I think so...thats why I continue
to propose it.
[01:39] what are you proposing?
[01:40] Ard...where does the ability to *choose*
come from in a universe of matter in motion? Can water
choose to flow uphill? What else in nature can go completely
against natural laws?
[01:40] Ard...why ought we to consider *rights*
more valuable than authoritarian dominance?
[01:40] because it is in our nature to seek
freedom
[01:41] and what "authority" are we talking about
[01:41] OK...but should we alwars do what
is in our nature?
[01:41] _Mick_ (ddavidso@206.75.117.5) left #apologetics.
[01:41] In who's nature? individuals or man
as a whole?
[01:41] not at all. we should do what is in
our own long term self interest
[01:42] ChildofSo (ChildofSo@www-23-14.gnn.com) joined
#apologetics.
[01:42] hi, all
[01:42] A government that kills you for being
different for example.
[01:42] hey child.
[01:42] Hi child
[01:42] what's up?
[01:42] brb
[01:43] The declaration of independance is
the best, most elequoent justififation for armed rebellion
that I have ever read
[01:43] Ard...why long term? My nature likes
it done quick and neat.
[01:43] i think we are here because me are
moral creatures with a purpose
[01:44] It is our morality that drives us forward
to create equallity and harmony
[01:44] you survive, or not, based on the choice
you make
[01:44] I'm back
[01:44] and you are free to choose
[01:44] we don;t always get it right.
[01:44] Arb...whoa!! wgere you going? we're
talking here! tell me, where is it in someones self
interest to sacrafice himself for another?
[01:44] gonna surf. see ya!
[01:44] bitwise (pilgrim@tahoe-d37.foothill.net) joined
#apologetics.
[01:44] ChildofSo (ChildofSo@www-23-14.gnn.com) left
#apologetics.
[01:45] salutations :)
[01:45] What id I choose that you should nolonger
survive?
[01:45] I would fight to the death to protect
my mate, and my offspring
[01:45] What if I decide that you and your
kin should be endentured to me
[01:45] Would that not be in my self interest?
[01:46] I have the right to wage war against
your efforts in that area
[01:46] If I could do it, why shouldn't I?
[01:46] it has been done many times, by individuals
and by whole nations
[01:46] The strong will always, in absence
if law or force, take the weak and rule over them.
[01:46] Ard...again, how is a collection
of atoms arranded an a certain way all of a sudden
free to make moral/ethical decisions based on abstract
ideas and the nature of which often go against *human
nature* as it is commonly understo
od?
[01:47] for every conceivable "moral" justification"
imaginable
[01:47] Hi bitwise
[01:47] hi bit.
[01:47] hello.
[01:48] Anyone here familar with Soren Kurkgard?
[01:48] tyrany, and the fight against it, is
almost the main theme of human history
[01:48] Spelling is bad today:)
[01:48] Ard: How id that?
[01:48] mas...yes..
[01:48] Ard: History is pretty long
[01:48] Yes..in passing.
[01:49] Cass and Bit: Do you believe that we
are thrown naked before God?
[01:50] please clarify that a bit...
[01:50] Ard...you came on soooo strong with
arguments for a naturalistic understanding of the human
mind...but you obviously have a desire to talk about
the political state of our country. well, so be it.
I am personally not interested.
[01:50] And which version of god are we talking
about
[01:50] Bit: Soren believed that we were alone,
he founded existionalism.
[01:51] He thought that we were all naked before
God, and that we had to make a leap across a great
chasim toward God.
[01:51] master...huh? Naked? well...I doubt
my Armani suit will pass into another demention...
[01:52] demension
[01:52] Without ever knowing the outcome, always
doomed to doubt and humility
[01:52] interesting...
[01:52] That there was nothing between man
and God, but man
[01:53] It was uppto to man to move toward
God
[01:53] Hmm...no. I believe Sin seperates
us from God...but we are not left without resource...
[01:53] But the question would always be there:
Is there a God?
[01:53] it is up to man to become god
[01:53] Sin could be the chasm...but we do
not wander doomed to doubt and humility.
[01:54] Ard: Thrue but for the wronf reason,
I believe anyway.
[01:54] I think we are left here alone.
[01:54] Einstein said that god was the sum
total of all the physical laws that operate the universe
[01:54] Ard...what happened to all that fire
you came on with...were you quoting out of a book or
something?
[01:54] not at alll
[01:54] There is no God to comfort us in our
darkest hour.
[01:54] i'm just trying to let others speak
[01:54] We must do without consolation
[01:55] without true knowledge.
[01:55] masterq: I have experienced "dark" hours...and
yet, I have always been consoled at some point by God's
presence.
[01:55] We have been created, abandoned to
our own devices, and for what purpose?
[01:55] master..Im glad you and Soren are
omniscient so as to know God is impersonal...even indifferent...
[01:56] there never has been a shred of actual
proof for the existance of some metaphysical being
that we have chosed to call "god"
[01:56] Ard...do you read?
[01:56] nd there has never been any evidence
that God doesn;t exist
[01:56] the only power of god is the power
of the belief of his followers
[01:56] masterq: not abandoned...left with
free will...
[01:57] that is not possible to do.
[01:57] And yes, I do read
[01:57] Freewill is a curse
[01:57] Ard...go read Alvin Plantinga or C.
VanTil or anything by Bahnson or Gorden Clark...Come
back and answer there arguments and then tell us about
those missing shreds of evidence, huh?
[01:58] "belief" by definition, is not rational
[01:58] absolute control is not to live at
all.
[01:58] it is bitter and cold, opposed to the
goodwill of man
[01:58] there would be a curse...and yet unknown
by all under it :)
[01:58] Ard.....nonono...belief is ESSENTIAL!
Most philosophers Christian or not believe that!!!
[01:59] Justified True belief...ever heard
of that?
[01:59] belief is the end of seeking to understand
[01:59] NO
[01:59] You see, we are alone. God has no desire
to seek us, we disgust Him.
[01:59] I Love my God because He has given
me the Free will not to.
[02:00] That is why we have to be purified
by a life of doubt and faith
[02:00] Augustine said he believed to understand....he
argued that you run into an infinite regress otherwise....
[02:01] That is way, to choose God, to actually
choose Him over worldy knowledge imebeded in doubt
is so great.
[02:01] Because their is so much doubt
[02:01] master...Dont project your personal
discouragement out onto the nature of God. You have
no reason to believe he operates that way universally.
[02:01] RedTango (silver@ip207.lax.primenet.com) joined
#apologetics.
[02:02] We are naked, there is no cover to
hide behind. And this to be certain of: There is a
God who watches
[02:02] Red!!!! :)
[02:02] hello bitwise
[02:02] Cass: I have read the Bible, I find
no evidence owtherwise.
[02:02] you are certainly free to believe that
[02:02] I dont buy it masterq
[02:02] Red...I apologise for bailing last
nite...I couldn't get back on. Netcom had problems
or something...I wasn't being rude.
[02:03] Action: bitwise sets his crap detector on automatic...
[02:03] hehehe
[02:03] Cassdiy, i can tell if someone was
dumped from their server because it says "ping timeout"
which tells me it wasnt voluntary.
[02:03] The very nature of God is such that
his only revelation to man is the written word.
[02:03] |