[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96 [00:14] dev

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[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/28/96 [00:14] deva (deva@www-37-248.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [00:14] deva (deva@www-37-248.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [00:34] Cassidy_ (cassidy7@irv-ca19-14.ix.netcom.com) joined #apologetics. [00:34] Mode change '+o Cassidy_ ' by W!cservice@undernet.org [00:37] Kenosis (cas96@ppp12.berkshire.net) joined #apologetics. [00:37] Kenosis (cas96@ppp12.berkshire.net) left #apologetics. [00:54] masterq (ask@ppp66.ionline.net) joined #apologetics. [00:54] hello anyone in? [00:55] hello? [00:55] hey masterq [00:56] ao what is up? [00:56] not much. You see its slow. [00:57] Ya, I guess so. Not to many people want to think about God rationally [00:57] no, its rather difficult on the brain. The task is left to the few. [00:57] Wow 25 second ping! [00:57] Where do you go to church (if at all)? [00:58] I don't for the time being [00:58] better change servers. [00:58] Sometimes I go to the local gathering [00:58] master...is there a specific reason? Not tryin to pry, just curious. [00:58] local? [00:59] reason for what? [00:59] for not attending a church at preesent. [01:00] I often don't have the time, and sometimes it seems pointless [01:00] don't get me wrong... [01:00] I believe in God, strongly [01:00] hmmmm...like I said, I wasn't tryin to pry. I trust you have your explanations. [01:01] Ardubya (ARDUBYA@www-26-78.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [01:01] Not really, I have no real reason just excuses [01:01] mast, do a /whois on me and try my server. 1 sec ping time. [01:02] hey ard. [01:02] hi [01:02] how'w everything tonight|? [01:02] mast...Im glad to hear you make that distinction! [01:02] Ard...better than most, not as good as some. And you? [01:03] I know that I have no excuse, you see to mem knowledge is every thing [01:03] not getting ahead, not falling behind [01:03] then why does "belief" persist in the face of knowldege [01:04] master...I didn't quite understand your last post.............. [01:04] Ard? belief is a necessary componant of knowledge. [01:04] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [01:04] well, to know what is right and what is wrong, why we do things and who or what God is, to me is very important. [01:04] true, even the scientific method is no more than a system of belief [01:04] reality itself is subsective [01:04] oh...to YOU knowledge is everything...OK I understand. [01:05] all our [01:05] In that sense let Me ammend MY last post... [01:05] data is filtered individually through our senses [01:05] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [01:06] Ard...true...is it knowledge tho. Can it be justified? [01:06] Ard...yeah... [01:06] survival is the individual's biological imperative, learning is a function of that [01:08] Ard...really? How then is there sacrafice? [01:08] you mean like for the "greater good" [01:08] master...jump in if you so please...BTW I think knowledge is necessary but not sufficient for *faith* in God. [01:10] Ard...no..I mean why is it that we often voilate our biological "progrAmming" and do things like make sacrafices...i.e., be merciful where we could justifyably seek vengence? [01:10] faith or belief in "god" is an emergent property of a constantly evolving "complex adaptive system" called the human brain [01:11] _Mick_ (ddavidso@206.75.117.5) joined #apologetics. [01:11] <_Mick_> so yall think the bible is fiction? [01:11] BTW, I am still here! [01:11] of course it is. it is a great work of parable, and a treasure of human culture and ethics [01:12] Ard...you talk like a flower...but thats OK! I can translate. Your personal commentary on the brains processees is a bit earily for our debate...but I can adapt. [01:12] it is not the "word of god" but the word of men who believe in god [01:12] <_Mick_> yup [01:12] it is BELIEF itself that gives god his power [01:12] <_Mick_> word of some dumb insane motherfuckers [01:13] So you are an existentailist? [01:13] i am a realist [01:13] <_Mick_> what's that, i'm only 14 :) [01:13] Mick...cut the language, eh? [01:13] and i am a romantic [01:13] <_Mick_> sorry about the language, the telecommunications act doesn't affect me :) [01:14] Ard....you have given about fifty conclusions.....start building a case already. [01:14] the linguistic limitations of labeling onself leaves me confused [01:14] <_Mick_> hehe [01:14] a case for what? [01:14] Mick...The rules of this channel will if you dont play it cool/. [01:14] Mick...The rules of this channel will if you dont play it cool/. [01:14] <_Mick_> understand [01:15] Ard...all the statements you were making. I dont care which one you decide to argue for...just pick one and go with it, huh? [01:15] <_Mick_> but the bot didn't tell me a set of rules so i assumed there were none [01:16] Mick...I just did. Thats why I warned you instead of kicking you. [01:16] <_Mick_> ok, thank you [01:16] Dont mention it. [01:16] Mick: this is a cool place , you can have your say without judgement. [01:16] as man evolves, he, and his societies become more "complex" [01:16] I am enjoying your comments, please continue! [01:17] <_Mick_> know what "pisses me off" is that people that believe in god are so narrow minded [01:17] same here [01:17] thats right...try pullin the stuff in #bible that people pull in here.....Youd be banned for life. [01:17] there is a physical law, in thermdynamics that states that entrophy always increases [01:17] <_Mick_> so is everyone here over 18 besides me? [01:17] Ard...ya... [01:18] <_Mick_> brb parents need me [01:18] I am 21 [01:18] orderly system tend to become more disordered [01:18] But I had the same thoughts when I was about 14-16 [01:18] Ard...continue. [01:19] have you ever heard of "chaos theory|" [01:19] Ard...yes. [01:19] yes [01:19] Well, an offshoot of that is the new "science" called "complexity" [01:20] there is, in some cases, order at the edge of chaos. [01:20] Ard...Ive talked to scientists who have studied the theory at length who were unwilling to fit the chaos theory into a worldview like I fear you are going to attempt.... [01:20] there are what is called "complex adaptive systems" [01:21] human "culture" is one of these [01:21] the individual human's brain is another [01:21] <_Mick_> Mormon(i am from the area where the mormons settled in canada) believe that we are actually deteriorating (in contrast to evolving) [01:22] that, as seen from a stern, and highly judgemental, moral perspective [01:22] <_Mick_> uhhhh, what? [01:22] <_Mick_> are you guys scientists :) [01:23] I do math [01:23] <_Mick_> me too :) [01:23] <_Mick_> i am a grade higher that normal in math [01:23] are you in school? [01:23] <_Mick_> grade 9 [01:23] cool [01:23] do you have a computer in your class [01:24] <_Mick_> surprised? [01:24] Just checking on clinton [01:24] Question: What use is God? [01:24] Mick: Canada - Where? [01:24] Ard...so, Now you're going to tell me why I should consider one societies ethical system superior or more valuable than anothers...or one individuals ethical beliefs more valuable than anothers. (I hope...) [01:25] he made a pretty good living for Jim and Tammy FAye [01:25] <_Mick_> next year i have to do a speech in front of the school that is highly controversial [01:25] <_Mick_> guess what my topic is [01:25] what [01:25] <_Mick_> why the bible should be moved to the fiction section :) [01:25] <_Mick_> that's bound to piss a "few" people off :) [01:26] Excellent topic. [01:26] <_Mick_> thank you :) [01:26] be careful, those crazy fundmentalists might shoot you [01:26] <_Mick_> but at least i died sane :) [01:26] true, but sad anyway [01:27] I don;t know. What is wrong with the Bible? [01:27] I am a spiritual person, but I don't do dogma. [01:27] <_Mick_> were not all athiests here? [01:27] It seems too many people are too willing to dismiss it without much reflection [01:28] Ard...perhaps you can tell me why humans have the capacity to decide between forgiveness or resentment when they are made up of essentially the same particals as anything else in the universe. Why dont we run helplessly toward o ur "programming" as water flows toward the ocean? [01:28] <_Mick_> good point [01:28] Mick: Where are you from? Canada? [01:28] <_Mick_> yup, Canada [01:28] <_Mick_> can ya tell? [01:28] aye.. [01:28] because we are highly specialized, "evolved" beings. We are "complex" and "adaptive" [01:29] Action: _Mick_ lol [01:29] MIck: Where abouts, I am Canadian too! [01:29] <_Mick_> Alberta [01:29] Ha, I am from Ontario! [01:29] Ard...fine but how is it that we have the freedom to do something that doesn't reflect a hint of self preservation? [01:30] We are "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights" etc. [01:30] Ard...fine but how is it that we have the freedom to do something that doesn't reflect a hint of self preservation? [01:30] <_Mick_> but who's to say that creatures don't believe in something, have you asked a cat what he believes in [01:31] my freedom is not given to me by any government. it is my natural birthright [01:31] Says who? [01:31] My cat believes she's hungry [01:31] Is it not the right of the strong to dominate the weak [01:31] Thomas Jefferson for one [01:31] <_Mick_> that is what it looks like to us, but what does it look like to them? [01:31] To use whatever resources to his advantage [01:31] Ard...why do you suppose you have that birthright? what if you were a jew in Germany during WWII? [01:32] for survival? [01:32] I have the right to struggle to survive. I have a "right" to be here on this planet, to breathe the air, to drink the water and to hunt and gather the food [01:33] survival of whom? My sense of survival doesn't necessitate me to consider others as having the same rights as I have. [01:33] As much right as any other living being [01:33] Ard...why? What ever gave you that Idea? [01:33] NO, but it is the rational ,and practical thing to do [01:33] But, if we are not here for any purpose other than survival, you have no right beyond dominace or subseriviece. [01:33] There can be no freedom [01:34] Ard...why should I, or our culture, consider those rights to be valuable? [01:34] Only a struggle to escape death and complete slavery of the will and body [01:34] I am free to do anything for which I am willing to assume the responsibility [01:35] Ard...listen...if Im a level in the evolutionary scale, then Its the survival of the fittest, just like an animal. Dog eat dog. The big fish eat the little fish. [01:35] Hammer to skull etc... [01:36] There can be no morality [01:36] what i'm saying is that "free will" is part of our biological makup [01:36] Ard...why? all you pronouncements are descriptice, not prescriptive as an ethical debate demands. [01:36] The american constitution is a decent attempt to create social ethics that transcend "morality" [01:37] The consitution is based on christian morality [01:37] Ard...where does the ability to *choose* come from in a universe of matter in motion? Can water choose to flow uphill? What else in nature can go completely against natural laws? [01:38] It did not attemppt to transcend it. Rather imbrace it. [01:38] Ard...why ought we to consider *rights* more valuable than authoritarian dominance? [01:39] Cass: Good point [01:39] mast...I think so...thats why I continue to propose it. [01:39] what are you proposing? [01:40] Ard...where does the ability to *choose* come from in a universe of matter in motion? Can water choose to flow uphill? What else in nature can go completely against natural laws? [01:40] Ard...why ought we to consider *rights* more valuable than authoritarian dominance? [01:40] because it is in our nature to seek freedom [01:41] and what "authority" are we talking about [01:41] OK...but should we alwars do what is in our nature? [01:41] _Mick_ (ddavidso@206.75.117.5) left #apologetics. [01:41] In who's nature? individuals or man as a whole? [01:41] not at all. we should do what is in our own long term self interest [01:42] ChildofSo (ChildofSo@www-23-14.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [01:42] hi, all [01:42] A government that kills you for being different for example. [01:42] hey child. [01:42] Hi child [01:42] what's up? [01:42] brb [01:43] The declaration of independance is the best, most elequoent justififation for armed rebellion that I have ever read [01:43] Ard...why long term? My nature likes it done quick and neat. [01:43] i think we are here because me are moral creatures with a purpose [01:44] It is our morality that drives us forward to create equallity and harmony [01:44] you survive, or not, based on the choice you make [01:44] I'm back [01:44] and you are free to choose [01:44] we don;t always get it right. [01:44] Arb...whoa!! wgere you going? we're talking here! tell me, where is it in someones self interest to sacrafice himself for another? [01:44] gonna surf. see ya! [01:44] bitwise (pilgrim@tahoe-d37.foothill.net) joined #apologetics. [01:44] ChildofSo (ChildofSo@www-23-14.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [01:45] salutations :) [01:45] What id I choose that you should nolonger survive? [01:45] I would fight to the death to protect my mate, and my offspring [01:45] What if I decide that you and your kin should be endentured to me [01:45] Would that not be in my self interest? [01:46] I have the right to wage war against your efforts in that area [01:46] If I could do it, why shouldn't I? [01:46] it has been done many times, by individuals and by whole nations [01:46] The strong will always, in absence if law or force, take the weak and rule over them. [01:46] Ard...again, how is a collection of atoms arranded an a certain way all of a sudden free to make moral/ethical decisions based on abstract ideas and the nature of which often go against *human nature* as it is commonly understo od? [01:47] for every conceivable "moral" justification" imaginable [01:47] Hi bitwise [01:47] hi bit. [01:47] hello. [01:48] Anyone here familar with Soren Kurkgard? [01:48] tyrany, and the fight against it, is almost the main theme of human history [01:48] Spelling is bad today:) [01:48] Ard: How id that? [01:48] mas...yes.. [01:48] Ard: History is pretty long [01:48] Yes..in passing. [01:49] Cass and Bit: Do you believe that we are thrown naked before God? [01:50] please clarify that a bit... [01:50] Ard...you came on soooo strong with arguments for a naturalistic understanding of the human mind...but you obviously have a desire to talk about the political state of our country. well, so be it. I am personally not interested. [01:50] And which version of god are we talking about [01:50] Bit: Soren believed that we were alone, he founded existionalism. [01:51] He thought that we were all naked before God, and that we had to make a leap across a great chasim toward God. [01:51] master...huh? Naked? well...I doubt my Armani suit will pass into another demention... [01:52] demension [01:52] Without ever knowing the outcome, always doomed to doubt and humility [01:52] interesting... [01:52] That there was nothing between man and God, but man [01:53] It was uppto to man to move toward God [01:53] Hmm...no. I believe Sin seperates us from God...but we are not left without resource... [01:53] But the question would always be there: Is there a God? [01:53] it is up to man to become god [01:53] Sin could be the chasm...but we do not wander doomed to doubt and humility. [01:54] Ard: Thrue but for the wronf reason, I believe anyway. [01:54] I think we are left here alone. [01:54] Einstein said that god was the sum total of all the physical laws that operate the universe [01:54] Ard...what happened to all that fire you came on with...were you quoting out of a book or something? [01:54] not at alll [01:54] There is no God to comfort us in our darkest hour. [01:54] i'm just trying to let others speak [01:54] We must do without consolation [01:55] without true knowledge. [01:55] masterq: I have experienced "dark" hours...and yet, I have always been consoled at some point by God's presence. [01:55] We have been created, abandoned to our own devices, and for what purpose? [01:55] master..Im glad you and Soren are omniscient so as to know God is impersonal...even indifferent... [01:56] there never has been a shred of actual proof for the existance of some metaphysical being that we have chosed to call "god" [01:56] Ard...do you read? [01:56] nd there has never been any evidence that God doesn;t exist [01:56] the only power of god is the power of the belief of his followers [01:56] masterq: not abandoned...left with free will... [01:57] that is not possible to do. [01:57] And yes, I do read [01:57] Freewill is a curse [01:57] Ard...go read Alvin Plantinga or C. VanTil or anything by Bahnson or Gorden Clark...Come back and answer there arguments and then tell us about those missing shreds of evidence, huh? [01:58] "belief" by definition, is not rational [01:58] absolute control is not to live at all. [01:58] it is bitter and cold, opposed to the goodwill of man [01:58] there would be a curse...and yet unknown by all under it :) [01:58] Ard.....nonono...belief is ESSENTIAL! Most philosophers Christian or not believe that!!! [01:59] Justified True belief...ever heard of that? [01:59] belief is the end of seeking to understand [01:59] NO [01:59] You see, we are alone. God has no desire to seek us, we disgust Him. [01:59] I Love my God because He has given me the Free will not to. [02:00] That is why we have to be purified by a life of doubt and faith [02:00] Augustine said he believed to understand....he argued that you run into an infinite regress otherwise.... [02:01] That is way, to choose God, to actually choose Him over worldy knowledge imebeded in doubt is so great. [02:01] Because their is so much doubt [02:01] master...Dont project your personal discouragement out onto the nature of God. You have no reason to believe he operates that way universally. [02:01] RedTango (silver@ip207.lax.primenet.com) joined #apologetics. [02:02] We are naked, there is no cover to hide behind. And this to be certain of: There is a God who watches [02:02] Red!!!! :) [02:02] hello bitwise [02:02] Cass: I have read the Bible, I find no evidence owtherwise. [02:02] you are certainly free to believe that [02:02] I dont buy it masterq [02:02] Red...I apologise for bailing last nite...I couldn't get back on. Netcom had problems or something...I wasn't being rude. [02:03] Action: bitwise sets his crap detector on automatic... [02:03] hehehe [02:03] Cassdiy, i can tell if someone was dumped from their server because it says "ping timeout" which tells me it wasnt voluntary. [02:03] The very nature of God is such that his only revelation to man is the written word. [02:03] Written by his "believers" [02:04] master, that cause he is man made. [02:04] Man cannot physically seek out God in an emprical sense [02:04] and in many other forms than the bible [02:04] He cannot touch God, smell God, hear God. [02:04] the is most definitely a spiritual aspect to man's nature [02:04] Therefore he is left to doubt God. [02:05] Because he cannot approach God through any venue other than faith [02:05] Red...all I know is that i was in lag for 3 minutes or better...then I got dumped clear out of my account. Then I got "lost Control" errors when I tried to log back on. Strange. No problems to night. [02:06] and faith is by definition belief in something when its existence is somewhat doubtfull [02:06] master...cant touch an abstraction either. [02:06] Cassidy, thats the one thing that annoys me about the Interenet..the lag time..even with Netscape..the more people that are on, the more time you have to wait..it needs to be streamlined and expanded more. [02:06] mast...I dont buy that def. [02:06] we will all face our death someday. what i believe, will make no difference [02:07] Red...they started a new Irc net...I forget what its called... [02:07] Man has built for himself, an arena of knowledge that is useless. [02:07] Cassidy, there is also DalNet [02:07] I have enjoyed our conversation immensely. to masterq and cassidy, my regards [02:07] i must be off [02:07] Ard...wouldn't it be nice to hear THAT from a dead person? [02:08] Ard...see ya. Stop back anytime. [02:08] oh shucks, I can't go now. [02:08] yeah Dalnet. know anytthing about it? [02:08] Nice reading ya [02:08] it's a cycle, ill be back [02:08] Ardubya (ARDUBYA@www-26-78.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [02:08] Cassidy, i use it sometimes, not as large as this system. [02:09] But it is growing quickly [02:09] more stable I suppose.... [02:09] I think that Soren was correct in his interpetation of God. [02:09] Well, most of the time, lots of people are switiching over to it. [02:09] Hard to believe IRC only began 5 yrs ago. [02:09] masterq: you haven't really said anything that convinces me that he was. [02:09] Ive only been around for a year [02:10] JScheirer (JScheirer@www-14-74.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [02:10] me too...beats the hell out of bulliten boards. Thats what I did for 2 years prior to IRC [02:10] Bit: I am not trying to be beligerant. Just follow what I am going to say [02:10] and reflect on it [02:11] I never tried those..but i was originally hooked onto my grandparents Prodigy account..i was stunned at what one month cost me... [02:11] Action: bitwise puts on his reflecting sunglasses :) [02:11] Man was created by God, this I am sure of, because we are moral and act in a moral manner. [02:11] master, that isnt proof of God. [02:11] There is a higher good that we all strive for. [02:11] RED...I had Prodogy...I had a 130.00 bill one month.....NedFlandrs had like a 170.00 bill.....! [02:11] Red: Hangon, I'll get back to you in a minute! [02:12] yeah..mine was 125.00..and you had to pay extra for the chat room service. All that was was for the bullitin boards..what a waste of money. [02:12] God has only made himself known to us through written accounts, of which there are many. [02:12] may I get in on the conversation mast.? [02:13] Red...have fun with masterq or whoever...Im too tired tonite to debate. I had a phil exam and Im beat. [02:13] JS: I'm just trying to prove Soren's point of view. [02:13] Goodnight Cassidy. [02:13] gotcha [02:13] nite! [02:13] bit...goodnite. [02:13] bye [02:13] Too many for anyone to be considered absoluty true. [02:13] adios [02:14] So what are we left with? [02:14] In the end, belief aside, there is only God and doubt. [02:14] night, Red. [02:14] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [02:15] Doubt causes us to live our lives always questioning and developing ideas about the nature of God. [02:15] Is there just the Christian-Judao god? [02:15] the problem is, nonone knows for certain whether one version of God is correct or not. [02:15] Are the buddist's correct? Are the Islamics? [02:16] No one knows, so we doubt [02:16] but God watches, we cannot hide from him, but he can Hide from us. [02:16] We cannot see Him, but he see's us. [02:16] I believe in a higher power just not sure about which "one" to follow [02:17] master, no one can prove God, that proof isnt going to start with your philosophy. [02:17] JS...you a friend of BillW? [02:17] no [02:17] Therefore, Soren is right in that, we must make a "leap" towards God, across a dark CVhasm, and always be resigned to doubt because to have awareness [02:17] Mode change '+o bitwise ' by Cassidy_!cassidy7@irv-ca19-14.ix.netcom.com [02:18] Okay Red it is our turn [02:18] are you familar withj St. Anslem? [02:18] Ive heard of him [02:19] Cassidy_ (cassidy7@irv-ca19-14.ix.netcom.com) left #apologetics. [02:19] JScheirer (JScheirer@www-14-74.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [02:19] St. Anselm proved the existence of a god by the very defintion of God [02:20] that is, God is a being of which no greater can be conceived [02:20] No one has proven God. Words do not prove God. [02:20] hang on, suspend your disbelief [02:21] If you "suspend disbelief" then you entertain the idea of the supernatural, of which there is none. [02:21] It is a universal definition. [02:21] ANd entertaining a thought doesnt make it real. [02:21] Even atheists conceive God in this way. [02:21] whats the point [02:22] No one thinks of God, whether real lor not, as being less than great [02:22] To me, God is a creation of men with the limitations that men possess as well. [02:22] so great, that another being equal to Him cannot be conceive in our mind [02:22] That means nothing. [02:22] Sure i t does. [02:22] no, it doesnt. [02:23] For the very conceptr of God, requires lthat he exists. [02:23] no, thats a bunch of crap. [02:23] i will explain why it is crap... [02:23] You cannot conceieve of God without HIm pocessing existence [02:23] Lets suppose i invent a God, the Pink Unicorn. [02:23] you can not think of God without existence [02:23] I promote the Pink Unicorni wrote books about him. [02:23] Red Why would man make up God? How could they even conceive of him if he didn't exist? Could we conceive of light if light did not exist? [02:23] I pray to him, others start to pray. [02:23] JC: good point [02:24] Nations begin to pray to the Pink Unicorn. [02:24] Red: Your arguing from Kant [02:24] Then those come along who say that the Pink Unicorn isnt real. [02:24] Red: Kant missed the point of the argument [02:24] Red: existence is not a predicate [02:24] Those who believe, say, the very fact that you acknowledge him means he is real!! [02:24] JC: while I don't believe man made up God...it is possible for man to conceive things he/she has never seen... [02:24] But all along, the Pink Unicorn was only an idea. [02:25] it is a nessary componant to God, like the color red belongs to red. [02:25] Red: but what about answered prayer? coincidence? [02:25] Red is not red without being red. [02:25] bitwise: could we conceive of light if there were no such thing? [02:26] The Pink Unicorn never was real. [02:26] And neither is God [02:26] master, i am not a supernatural being, either. [02:26] bitwise, what about unanswered prayers? [02:26] Who said you were? [02:26] can you seperate red from red? [02:26] JC: possibly, maybe by divine intervention, or maybe not... we conceived of mathematics without really a basis seen... [02:26] What about all the victims, little girls being raped and strangled to death..where was God then? [02:27] master, i am real, God is a concept for the fearful. [02:27] Red: Absent [02:27] I am not a concept. [02:27] Red: Sin caused that...not God. [02:27] DOnt tell me about answered prayers. [02:27] Red: Can you seperate Red from Red? [02:27] master, i am not a concept, you cant compare me to the concept of the supernatural. [02:27] Red: no need to be angry :) [02:27] hardly angry [02:28] person (Servant@www-10-205.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [02:28] bitwise: there is no preexisting entity called mathematics. We invented it. If mankind could conceive of light in a world in which light did not exist, then wouldn't we all have wildly different ideas [02:28] Answer me, can you seperate red from red? [02:28] of what it would be? [02:28] can you seperate light from light? [02:28] If God can step in and save a life, then he could very well save all the children who die of cancer and AIDS and abuse, i would assume. [02:28] master, you are now sounding like a broken record. [02:28] person (Servant@www-10-205.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [02:28] Maybe so, but you refuse to answer me [02:29] I am not a concept. [02:29] Red: So God doesn't exist because he's not behaving as you see fit? [02:29] JC: that is my point. We can invent things without prior knowledge...in the form of ideas... [02:29] im answering you. I answer all questions. [02:29] Just as you cannot seperate red from red you cannot seperate existence from God. [02:29] JC, God isnt real because he is a irect reflection of men. [02:29] direct [02:29] master, your examples are pointless. [02:29] Because existence is part of God just like red is part of red [02:29] they have no connection. [02:30] I am a humna, not a supernatural deity. [02:30] Red: a person raped/strangled that little girl of which you speak...God did not...why do you discount His presense when the actions of another are in question? [02:30] Red; Why would human beings (who are very independent) make up someone to whom they have to submit? [02:30] Red as in color, not you [02:30] Red is a concept, but real [02:30] it is seen [02:30] it can be touched [02:30] JC, why wouldnt they? The idea of God answers all human fantasies. [02:31] it is necessary for red to be red owtherwise it wouldn't exist [02:31] What fantasies? Besides, having a theory doesn't make it so. [02:31] master, there is no proof that God is real. [02:31] the concept of red makes it so [02:31] JC..transcending death is the ultimate human fantasy. [02:31] without the concept what is red? [02:31] SWGuy (SWGuy@www-8-231.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [02:32] master, that means nothing. [02:32] greetings, SWGuy. [02:32] Howdy [02:32] how so. Can you tell me what red would be if it wasn't red? [02:32] Red: Why do humans fear death? Animals don't. They fear being killed, but not death. [02:32] master, you cant compare me with a supernatural deity. [02:32] What would red be without the concept of color, of redness? [02:32] Your arguement is null. [02:33] tell me than what would red be without color, or the conceppt of red? [02:33] can you even conceive of such a thing? [02:33] JC, because we are self aware matter..we know we are going to die. And we have years to think about it before it happens. We are not caught up in the "now" of survival. [02:33] SWGuy (SWGuy@www-8-231.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [02:34] Red: What makes us different from animals? Why are they not "self aware"? [02:34] So it is with God. The concept proves the existence. [02:34] It won;t seem fair, but it is logical [02:34] JC, there are probably certain animals that ARE self aware, however, humans seem to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about their fate. It is our huge braisn that set us apart from other animals. [02:34] and rational thought rules argument [02:35] master, this proves nothing except that you are very uncompelling. Rational thought rules do not prove a God, God is an irrational and illogical concept to begin with. [02:36] Red: Your explanation doesn't explain the enormous conincidence that virtually all of humanity has thought that there is a supreme Creator God. [02:36] How so, do yu believe in evolution or the big bang? [02:36] big bang. [02:36] JC, it is our knowledge of death that makes people create Gods..our universal fears of the unexplained..ways to deal with stress and death of loved ones, our own death. It is very simple. [02:37] It is our doubt that caused us to dismiss god and create complex theories [02:37] as to why god doesn;t exist/ [02:37] I have heard plenty of complex theories designed to promote God. [02:37] it is because we are alone [02:38] Red: even before I became a Christian...when I was very young...I had no religiuous experience...my parents did not speak of a God...nor did they attend church...and yet I *knew* there was a God...how do you explain this? [02:38] St. Anselm's theory is not complex, I suggust yu read it. It is very good [02:38] Also read Kant's rebuttal [02:39] by the way masterq, thank you for you explanation...I shall reflect on it. :) [02:39] bitwise, you needed the comfort of thinking that something was watching out for you, it is a unique trait in humans, we are extremely social and often invent "invisible friends". [02:39] Bit: I hope you do. [02:39] People need that contact. [02:39] Bit: It is something that is starting to dawn on me [02:40] but to invent a God? a child? certainly one could imagine a friend...a stuffed animal...a pet...but God? [02:41] sure, why not. Im not talking about a stuffed animal..i am talking about creating a friend, and even a powerful "guide" or protector. [02:41] Red: How do you explain the amazing accuracy of the Messianic Prophecies found in the Old Testament. They predict Jesus' birth, life, death, resurrection with incomprehensible accuracy. [02:41] masterq: I agree with most of what you have said tonight...just not the part about being hoplessly left to the dispair of unknowing. [02:42] JC, i attribute that to the 2,000 years men have had to change the texts and alter them to fit as they are needed. [02:42] Bit: Can you say, with absolute certainty, I mean absolute certainty that your god is the correct one? [02:43] Red: we can see a stuffed animal or a person and envision a compainion of them...whether in person or in the flesh...but not God...what basis would I have for that...I had no experience to derive such. [02:43] Red: You need to read up on how the Bible was put together. The keepers of the "Old Testament" have been the Jews. They had it long before Jesus was born and they have no interest in perpetuating [02:43] Bit: That He will catch you? [02:43] worship of Jesus. [02:44] masterq: I believe there is only one God...and no I do not know every truth about God...so my *idea* of God could be divergent in areas.. [02:44] bitwise, the human brain is designed to seek leadership, comfort and hope. [02:44] masterq: He has caught be before...why should I believe that He will not later? [02:44] RED Why would the Jews change the Old Testament to accommodate the Christian claims the Jesus is the Messiah? It makes no sense. [02:44] JC, I do not have enough information to discuss predictions coming true, so i cant comment on it right now. [02:44] JC has a good point. [02:45] Bit: That is what I mean. You are left to decide. Decision is based on doubt. Therefore He see's, He knows, we don't [02:45] It would be irresponsible for me to do so. [02:45] masterq: I do not have to decide...just trust. In the end of all matters, I have not been disappointed. [02:46] Bit: it is like a two way mirror. He sees us, We have an idea there is something beyond, but we are not certain. [02:46] Red: Look into the messianic prophecies. I'd hate to see you close your mind to the possibility that God is there without examining all the evidence. [02:47] JC, nothing in the world will ever convince me there is a God. [02:47] Bit: We might feel His presence, we may trust that He will catch us in the end, but in the end we have no idea whether or not he will. [02:47] Bit: All we can do is throw ourselves at His mercy. [02:47] Red: you're sounding closed-minded. That surprises me. [02:48] Bit: To kneel naked, to leap towards somethin that is real yet unknown. [02:48] JC, i dont beleive in the supernatural. [02:49] bitwise (pilgrim@tahoe-d37.foothill.net) left irc: Ping timeout for bitwise[tahoe-d37.foothill.net] [02:49] red: if God really did exist, then what medium could he use to tell you so (and that he cares about you). What medium would you accept? [02:49] Red: Then you are dismissing argument, and you have defeated you purpose for being here. [02:49] However i will say that it wouldnt be the old testament that would have to be doctored, it would be whatever follows to supposedly present a fulfilled prophecy. And that would be the new testament. [02:49] master, i am not attempting to "win" or defeat anyone. [02:50] That is not what I am saying Red [02:50] What I am saying is that your have closed your mind and are uncapable of learning [02:50] Red: I don't understand. [02:51] bitwise (pilgrim@tahoe-d37.foothill.net) joined #apologetics. [02:51] it may be true or flase, but you will never know [02:51] because you have already decided [02:51] I was disconnect :( [02:51] I am an open book, I can bee rewritten [02:51] :) [02:51] master, i am not here to "rewrite" anyone. [02:51] I dont want to change you. [02:51] I didn;t say you were! [02:52] That is a logical fallacy [02:52] you said you could be rewritten. [02:52] read what I am trying to convey to you [02:52] I am still able to learn because I haven;t closed my options! [02:52] Red: There's no evidence that the New Testament has been changed. I think you're trying to wish it so. [02:52] JC, tell me, if there was no God..is this was a godless world, tell me, how would you act..how would you live your life? [02:53] I dont wish anything, i am perfectly willing to go to Hell if that is my fate. [02:53] Bit: |Did you catch the last of what I wrote? [02:53] Red: why do you come, if I may ask? This is purely meant for curiousness, not that you have to justify why you come... [02:53] masterq: no. [02:53] Red: There is no hell. [02:54] Red: Only death and existence [02:54] Red: I mean you obviously will not be convinced...and you probably have heard every argument imaginable...why do you still seek? [02:54] bitwise, mental exercise [02:55] Red: I'd probably be a lot more selfish than I am now. It's hard to say since Jesus is such a huge part of me. [02:55] Masterq Chuckless [02:55] Jc, well, lets tal;k about this for a moment. [02:55] JC, you would be more selfish..anything else? [02:55] Red: My sex life would be much different! [02:56] JC, okay..so lets see..more sex, and more selfishness...anything else? [02:56] Red: what's your point. [02:56] Red: Selfishness covers a log of areas. That's all that comes to mind for now. [02:57] lot of areas [02:57] JC, what areas does it cover.? [02:57] bitwise, i am not talking to you [02:57] Bit: Perhaps you could look at your beliefs for me, since I know nothing of you, and tell me, honestly, whether or not you can be sure of them. I mean Sure, so much that you cold never, under and weight of evidence, beileve other wise? [02:57] Pride, anger, hate, conceit, etc. [02:58] Greed, theft, etc [02:58] JC, okay, so you would probably display alot more raw impulses... [02:58] You may take advantage of others, perhaps steal, hurt people to get your way, etc... [02:58] Of course. Part of the work of God is to give me a new nature to override my old, natural nature. [02:59] Ver well. Now heres the question... [03:00] I do not believe in God. I am not motivated by God. However, I do not cheat, steal, act cruel, sleep around or abuse others, although you would think that my "worldview" would allow me to. Yet , you would. Now why is that, that you would, and I dont? [03:00] I am sure because, for me, the evidence outways the discrepencies...however...if evidence were to be present that absolutly refuted everything I believe...I would have to change....I have not always been a christain... [03:00] Gotta go, it is getting too late for me! [03:00] Goodnight masterq. [03:01] Maybe you're a better person than I, Red. [03:01] Is it that? Or is God a symbol people use to control themselves with? [03:01] Seriously, why do you think you don't do those things? What's wrong with any of them? [03:02] masterq (ask@ppp66.ionline.net) left #apologetics. [03:02] JC, because, you dont need a God to know what is socially irresponsible behaviour. If you are an intelligent, responsible person, as i am, you can control yourself. [03:04] Red: May I interject...or is the conversation still private. [03:04] Red: But how do you control yourself on the inside? How do not think more highly of yourself than you outhgt to? How do you keep from enying others? How do you keep from having rude thoughts? [03:04] go ahead bit [03:05] JC, one question at a time! hehehe pick one, and i will tell you how i handle that situation. [03:05] I just wanted to say goodnight to you both...blessings to you and yours. :) [03:05] Red: What if it were socially acceptable to kill others? [03:06] bitwise (pilgrim@tahoe-d37.foothill.net) left #apologetics. [03:07] JC, my nature would object to it, although i am pro-choice, so i do have conditions. However, this would be a very different life if killings were legal and random..my attitude and your attitudes would be very different. [03:07] We would have totally different outlooks on the world and most likely different values. [03:08] Red: The thing is that my values are revealed by God, therefore are unchangable regardless of society. [03:09] Why do christians always bring up killing and Hitler philosophies when they question other people's values? Why dont they address the real day to day issues we deal with regularly? [03:10] OK, let's deal with day to day issues. Jesus is a constant source of hope for me. Do you need such a source? [03:10] hope for what? [03:12] I consider all the difficult times of my life to be ordered of God in order to make me into the image of Jesus. If I didn't believe He was in control, I would have no hope. [03:12] Oh, i dont believe that. I dont think life is a test of any sort. [03:12] I didn't say it was a test. It's a way of making me into the image of Jesus. [03:13] i dont see life as God made, or problems made for me to strengthen my character. [03:13] I wouldn't either if I were you. [03:14] Well, thats a pretty unremarkable statement. [03:15] I don't believe that atheists are horrible, immoral people. They're as moral as Christians in most cases. (More so in some cases.) [03:15] i agree with that. They just arent motivated by God. [03:15] They are good because they value goodness. [03:16] My belief is that you need Jesus as much as I, you just don't realize it. I fully admit that he is a crutch; in fact, much more: a life support system! [03:16] I know what you think, and you are wrong, im not as weak as you. [03:17] That's right. I agree. But I also think that God works in all of our lives (including yours) to show us how much we really do need him. I'm still learning. [03:18] Of course thats what you think. So what? [03:18] You are learning to live in a vaccumm and think that everyone else needs just what you do, and you are wrong. [03:18] We must become weak in order to be strong. The Christian faith is very paradoxical. In order to live, we must die. [03:18] Christianity is a cult [03:19] I dont need cults. [03:19] How so? What's a cult? [03:19] a cult is organized beleif system [03:19] also explain living in a vacuum [03:19] which recruits members [03:20] the American Civil Liberties Union is an organized belief system too [03:20] a vacuum is a little narrow space in which you live, you cant see out, you think everyone needs just what you do..it is all the conditioning of the church. [03:20] cults usually include beleif in the supernatural. [03:20] anyways, im gonna go now [03:21] see ya around [03:21] My viewpoints are based on my own closed-mindedness. it's based on being persuaded after examining the facts that the Bible is the Word of God. [03:21] Good talking to you. Where are you from? [03:21] los angeles [03:21] Sorry, I meant to say my viewpoints are NOT based on my own closed-mindedness. [03:22] How old are you? [03:22] 29 [03:22] freudian slip [03:22] what kind of work do you do? [03:22] tv production [03:23] what kind? [03:23] cartoons [03:23] anything I would have heard of? The Simpsons is my favorite TV show. It's just about the only thing I watch. [03:24] i dont talk about where i work specifically [03:24] no problem [03:25] so do you often debate Christians? [03:25] yes [03:25] do you ever hear any good arguments? [03:26] attempts at good arguements, but no one can prove God [03:27] I just read an interesting book about the Big Bang that seems to point to a Creator. [03:27] im sure you did. [03:27] It's called The Creator and The Cosmos by Dr. Hugh Ross. I'm not sure how interested you'd be, but it should give some good food for thougth. [03:28] no thanks [03:28] Do you consider yourself open-minded? [03:28] hang on a moment [03:28] Your position that there is no supernatural is as much a position of faith as you consider my faith in Jesus. [03:29] not really. Human nature explains the invention of the supernatural. [03:30] I'm not convinced. I think belief in God goes against human nature. [03:30] are you kidding? Belife in Gods is as old as human history. [03:30] hahaha [03:30] you are not very observant. [03:31] The human problem (acording to most born-again Christians) is that we are prideful, rebellious, self-reliant, etc. Why invent an entity that we must submit ourselves to? [03:31] The history of deism that you described seems to be one proof of God. [03:32] You mentioned that you atheists value "goodness." How can there be such a thing without God? how do you define goodness? Is it completely dependent on societal mores? [03:33] there is no proof of God, until scince came along, people thought there were no new stars in the sky, new planets, they thought the clouds and wind had emotions, it is all superstition. [03:33] Goodness is needed to survive [03:33] it is a survival trait [03:34] You can survive while hating people and envying them and coveting their possessions. So what's wrong with these things? [03:35] They do not bring you a very close support system..the more anti socal and selfish you are, the less chance you have that someone is going to be willing to help you out....you want to be accepted, because that increases your cha nce of survival. [03:35] Ijan20 (Ijan20@www-43-209.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [03:36] Ijan20 (Ijan20@www-43-209.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [03:36] I really have to go [03:36] Lying to others can make people think you like them; therefore, bring you closer. Would lying then be a good thing if it furthers your chances of survival? [03:37] i will see you later [03:37] good night! [03:37] RedTango (silver@ip207.lax.primenet.com) left irc: Read error to RedTango[ip207.lax.primenet.com]: Connection reset by peer [03:37] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [03:37] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) joined #apologetics. [03:37] JC (THedgcoth@www-28-156.gnn.com) left #apologetics. [04:15] BabySnake (storm@cisco-ts5-line27.uoregon.edu) joined #apologetics. [04:15] BabySnake (storm@cisco-ts5-line27.uoregon.edu) left #apologetics. [05:21] PsyCop (philcs@slip12.vianet.net.au) joined #apologetics. [05:21] PsyCop (philcs@slip12.vianet.net.au) left #apologetics. [05:51] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined #apologetics. [05:51] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left #apologetics. [06:14] PsyCop (philcs@slip12.vianet.net.au) joined #apologetics. [06:16] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined #apologetics. [06:16] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [06:17] I wonder if whats his nick will come too. [06:23] PsyCop (philcs@slip12.vianet.net.au) left #apologetics. [06:26] Owen (Robert.Pr@tc1-sl3.zenox.com) joined #apologetics. [06:26] helo [06:27] hullo [06:27] whats up? [06:27] Topic changed by Acolyte!st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com: The Home of Rational Theism [06:27] I'll be, there's never anyone here as a rule [06:27] depends on when you come around [06:27] at night it is really slow [06:27] during the day it gets hopin [06:28] at night, of course, is when i visit [06:28] ah ic [06:28] u christian? [06:28] nope [06:28] what? [06:28] agnostic [06:28] ic [06:28] why? [06:29] I haven't seen any compelling reasons not to be [06:29] where have you looked for them? [06:29] here, there, everywhere [06:30] what have you read on the topic? [06:30] what have you read on the topic? [06:31] source bokks (Koran, Bible, Bagahvad Gita), philsohpies, critiques [06:31] such was? [06:32] what works have you read for Theism? Imean philosophical? [06:33] Lewis comes to mind, I haven't been reading that sort of material for a few years [06:33] lewis is good but basic [06:33] . [06:35] Most of interest got diverted to history, seemed silly to research the philosophical foudations if there was no historical or archeological rationale [06:35] ic, well perhaps, but epistemology make history possible [06:35] if one lacks the ability to have an epistemology it kinda make historical investigation silly [06:37] actually, i've had a lot of discussions with epistimologists, and they seem obsessed with word games and semantics, I was'nt impressed [06:38] owen I beg to differ [06:38] you have that right [06:40] some are that way, but some ppl in every feild are there to play games, that does not make the issue of epistemology a non-issue ipso facto [06:41] well gotta jam, I am at work and have have 75 tickets to clear out of IVR [06:41] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left #apologetics. [06:42] Owen (Robert.Pr@tc1-sl3.zenox.com) left #apologetics. 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