apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/27/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/27/96
[02:57] RedTango (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[02:57] milhous (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[02:57] heh heh\
[02:59] so...I believe your answer was insufficient
by virtue of its inability to give any reason to "value"
any one ethical bellief over another...and yet we do,
[02:59] value has reason.
[03:00] I think the IRC format makes it a
bit hard to clarify things
[03:00] Especially when i have people firing
at me constantly
[03:00] Red...we are agreed on that!
[03:00] FauxReal (ZCLL4@ETSU.east-tenn-st.edu) joined
[03:00] I know.
[03:00] This is my belief..
[03:00] does reason have value, tho?
[03:01] as humans, we need rules, we need
limits...these are defined by what we value, what are
priorties are as a culture. i am not summing up the
entire planet here..each culture is unique.
[03:02] Peole have the capacity to set down
rules and when they agree to abide by them, then the
system is set into motion.
[03:02] Belshon (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[03:02] Outside of our lives here on this
planet, adn our own activities, personal and societal
goals, our values dont have any meaning. Our values
are an invention we needed to survive.
[03:03] They apply to us, were made for us.
[03:03] There is no God watching or giving
[03:03] There isnt anyone keeping score, anyone
with "absolute truths" from on high.
[03:04] Belshon (email@example.com) left #apologetics.
[03:04] I dont question our ability to do
those things OR the necessity of them for the survival
of a society. But that is prescriptive and doesn't
answer the why. Why is survival valuable over deteriation?
[03:04] creation_ (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[03:05] Cassidy: How do I check a note that
is waiting for me on ApoloBot?
[03:05] It is valauble simply because we are
programmed to want to live and procreate. We are driven
to do so by our nature as animals on this planet. There
is no real reason to do it, we just are..we happen
to be able to do it.
[03:05] Seed: History books can be wrong,
so if you are going to accept Christianity and the
truth of the bible, you must do it through grace and
[03:06] creation...your asking the wrong guy.
My abilities are severly limiten in this area. msg
Nedflandrs if he is on irc....
[03:06] RedTango: Legacy of the first replicating
[03:06] Deanr (deanh@KENDACO.TELEBYTE.COM) joined #apologetics.
[03:06] milhous, eyah
[03:06] Well, some of my favorite people here
tonight..the ones who push back, all gathered around.
[03:06] BabySnake (email@example.com)
[03:07] All we need is Acolyte and it will
[03:07] Of all the Tango's that I know.. Red
is my favorite. :)
[03:07] Actually, I'm heading to bed.. just stopped
by for a sec
[03:08] well, thats fone
[03:08] its fone, too.
[03:08] RedTango: Don't worry, he'll be
here soon enough. Even though he is more than enough
for you all by himself :)
[03:08] Red...but what *justifies* the belief
that those programmings are valuable? Some feel predisposed
to kill, or abuse. They seem to be programmed also,
yet they (hopefully) resist the desire. So programming
alone doesn't =ethics.
[03:08] creation, yeah, but all he talks about
is the same thing.
[03:08] night all
[03:08] Cassidy_: Not a value judgment.
[03:08] Deanr (deanh@KENDACO.TELEBYTE.COM) left #apologetics.
[03:08] Acolyte (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[03:08] Redtango: And that same thing is
kicking your but :)]
[03:08] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBotemail@example.com
[03:08] BabySnake (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[03:08] Nothing outside of our instinct to
survive "justifies" it.
[03:08] there you go.
[03:08] zx (email@example.com) joined #apologetics.
[03:09] RedTango has an ass of steel.
[03:09] Acolyte's in bible.
[03:09] Speaking of the Devil, hello Acolyte
[03:09] cassidy: Collective programming maybe
[03:09] I was in #bible ;)
[03:09] RedTango: I guess you do the Buns
of Steel workout.
[03:09] you beeter believe it
[03:10] Red...then we have no philosophical
reason to believe such. If I say nothing on Earth justifies
my belief in God...you'll be all over my butt. Why
should it be different for you?
[03:10] creation your opinion of me is always
so high. ;)
[03:10] zx (firstname.lastname@example.org) left #apologetics.
[03:10] creation...seek and ye shall find,
[03:11] We have plenty of "reasons" for it.
Reasons are inventions as well. You have plently of
things to justify your belief in God. Why people beleive
in God isnt a mystery.
[03:11] creation not even close
[03:12] creation to bad she does not do the
"Brains of Steel" work out ;)
[03:12] Red...do reasons differ from culture
to culture? Should I amend my logic if I move to the
orient? If not, why are they so different than ethical
[03:12] Acolyte: hehehehehe
[03:12] Red and why does Cassidy believe in
[03:12] Cassidy, i would assume your logic
would be different if you absorbed yourself into a
[03:13] Cassidy can answer that better than
[03:13] 51 seconds to creation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[03:13] Red but why do you think he does?
[03:14] Cassidy needs what God provides
[03:14] Red...perhaps the perspective, but
not the fabric of logic. A will never = non-A no matter
how many cultures I live in.
[03:14] Cassidy, thats because you have made
up your mind and are not open to other concepts.
[03:14] cassidy thats ~A BTW ;)
[03:15] Red...give me an alternative...Im
open now...just for you.
[03:15] An alternative to what, God?
[03:15] redtango outside of the law of logic,
there ARE NO ALTERNATIVES.
[03:15] its just that simple.
[03:16] Red...NO, to logic...to Adoes not
[03:16] Red, outside of the lea of contreadiction,
there are no rational concepts
[03:16] Well, I hate this. I never get kicked
anymore in #bible, just gagged and made to sit there
while others speak their minds.
[03:16] an alternative to logic?
[03:16] fauxreal its a preview to hell
[03:16] What is?
[03:16] Acolyte: hehehe
[03:16] Faux...I can think of ways if you
REALLY want to get kicked from Bible....
[03:16] faux being gagged and having to listen
[03:16] Sitting in #bible is like Hell, man
[03:17] RED...YES! Give me one, just one.
[03:17] Krosis (email@example.com) joined
[03:17] Red now #Apologetics is mor elike prugatory
or the Toll Houses
[03:17] hullo krosis
[03:17] Oh boy, another one.
[03:17] I know, sister. Who *you* tellin!
[03:17] beleif in the supernatural
[03:17] Yep, i am being prepared for my ternity
[03:18] Action: Krosis gives creation a wither look......
[03:18] Red...hehe...took you long enuf to
come up with that one.....no, give me an alternitive
law to A does not = ~A
[03:18] It's kinda like my upbringing. I
had to sit there in a fundamentalist pentacostal church
and keep my mouth shut.
[03:18] Faux, in heaven, they make the boys
wear pants and the girls wear dresses.
[03:18] zx (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined #apologetics.
[03:18] just one.
[03:18] fauxreal thats your problem
[03:18] Well, I'm not going, then! ;)
[03:18] cassidy, i dont understand what your
[03:19] faux no one here that I know is Pentacostal
[03:19] FAUX...thats the problem. Penticostal.
[03:19] Acolyte: WHy?
[03:19] Acolyte: I'm not, either.
[03:19] Faux, yeah, i dont need an eternity
of conformity and cafeteria food.
[03:19] Faux actually the majority of ppl here
would look down theologically on Petacostals
[03:19] faux naw really? ;)
[03:19] Why, their almost like the Nazis on
#Bible, right zx? ;)
[03:20] faux you'll get over it hopefully
[03:20] doh! ;)
[03:20] SeedSower (email@example.com)
[03:20] uh oh
[03:20] faux hey no one says you have to go
to the channel
[03:20] faux if you don't like it, thenleave
[03:20] zx Probably not.
[03:20] hullo seed
[03:20] Ac: I know, but it's fun.
[03:20] Red...sure you do. You told me I conditioned
myself to believe in the A=~A law and I needed to oped
myself up to other possibilities...so, I am. Tell me
how A CAN = ~A...or give me another law antithetical
to the aforementioned
that I can operate and communicate using.
[03:20] faux the channel purpose here is not
to bitch about how things are on #bible
[03:21] Yo howdy all.
[03:21] They kick me for the tiniest reason,
ieven if I'm agreeing.
[03:21] I never told you you NEEDED to open
up to anything, or alter anything about yourself.
[03:21] faux i prolly made a mistake letting it
get open to denying the Word .. now the solution to
that is to nip it in the bud and enforce the channel
purpose more equally and cleanly .. i think you will
like that even less
[03:21] That's why I've learned to /ign logos9
for when somebody sends me the rules.
[03:21] discussion = denying apparently..
[03:21] Faux, you are learning!!!
[03:22] Kronis: IT does there.
[03:22] naw we have really great discussions
[03:22] Faux - You are probably being kicked
by Achimoth, who has little tolerance for anything
other than a strictly Bible topic. If I was opping,
I would let you stay.
[03:22] Only when everybody agrees!
[03:22] YEah, Achimoth kicks; zx humiliates
[03:22] faux ok change the topic, or go private
[03:22] Red...I want to know If I CAN, and
still maintain rationality. Tell me, can I? How? I
know only one way to understand this keyboard...and
that is that it is a keyboard and not a non-keyboard.
[03:22] actually seed noone that i know of devoiced
him .... however i have no problem with it .. he knows
... he just dont like it ...
[03:23] faux change the topic, I did not come
here to hear youwine
[03:23] zx - Huh?
[03:23] zx: doesn't.
[03:23] faux that s why apologetics is good place
for you .. you can dispute here ..
[03:23] zx she is wining is all so far
[03:23] well get used to that heheeee
[03:24] Cassidy, changing a viewpoint is a
bit different. Sometimes our expereinces in life open
us up to another side of an issue we may have refused
to feel had any validity. Experience.
[03:24] or dont
[03:24] faux...dispute to your hearts content.
[03:24] I never whine in #bible.
[03:24] faux you are whining NOW
[03:24] seed i dont know how faux got devoiced i
didnt do it
[03:24] I know.
[03:24] zx: You moderated.
[03:24] but its not something i disagree with
[03:24] Why does it bother atheists so much
to have believers around?
[03:24] galileo (firstname.lastname@example.org)
[03:24] Ac: I'm looking for a point to jump
[03:24] redtango can you name one experience
that does not confomr to the Law of contradiction?
[03:24] no faux if i devoice you you will see !dv
[03:25] Gasp! Galileo's back!
[03:25] seed guilt
[03:25] i dont ever devoice any other way
[03:25] Red...I am a friend to experience...the
same experience that is tellin me that you have no
rational response to the question proposed.
[03:25] i kick other ways but not devoice
[03:25] Seedsower, some of us seek you out
purposely. I have had more expereince with believers
not wanting atheists around.
[03:25] What is devoiced?
[03:25] zx: When you !moderat 1, Idon't get
[03:25] Amen! RED! ;)
[03:25] Cassidy, i could sit here all night
and give you sane, reasonable answers and you will
reject them all, what more can I do for you?
[03:25] faux take it private
[03:25] Newhon (email@example.com)
[03:25] hullo newhon
[03:25] Howdy all
[03:25] bye, zx
[03:26] Mode change '+o Newhon ' by ApoloBotfirstname.lastname@example.org
[03:26] faux well that is maybe a tedhnical problem
or prolly cause you have such a hight bad level that
the bot looks around at the bad levels and says egads
this guy is a problem in genereal
[03:26] Seed: Most atheists get harrassed
so by believers, they just don't want to go through
[03:26] Acolyte, fellas was lookin fo ryou the
other night. Tryin to remember his nick.
[03:26] RedTango - Do you feel that way about
me? I never said or even hinted that I didn't want
you around. It's been my experience with you that
if I open myself up to you and be honest you burn me
with an emotive jab and then leav
e in an instant.
[03:26] i did not devocie you faux whenever i do
you will know it and see it on screen
[03:26] RedTango: Reject them all with rational
and logical arguments. That should tell you something,
[03:26] zx (email@example.com) left #apologetics.
[03:27] Red, You always say that...and SOME
of your answers ARE rational when you give them. I've
seen it. However, you are known for slipping from argument
with premises and all to commentary. I wish you'd see
these arguments thru.
[03:27] Seedsower, you are relly full of it
on that one. I left our last talk because it was really
late and the conversation was over. Like i am not a
confrontation person. You know quite well i stick out
debates as long as I can stay
[03:27] creation, no, it doesnt
[03:28] newhn let me know what nick
[03:28] cassidy you ain't the only one
[03:28] cassidy Lorrin has flipped out BTW
[03:28] RedTango: It should
[03:28] Cassidy, then lets take ONE situation
and let me go to the end of it woth you.
[03:28] Pick ONE thing,
[03:28] Aco...you told me. I gotta go hear
it for myself. Doesn't really surprise mr tho....
[03:28] Red well if you would stick with debates
as long as you are rational then you would not have
to worry about staybing awake.
[03:28] Red - It is also my experience in
dealing with atheists that they are hypocrites in their
own right. They claim to be rational and logical but
when they encounter a believer (especially when they
are in groups) they resort to
the most absurd fallacies especially in the ad hominem,
red herring types.
[03:28] cassidy its a phase I think
[03:28] I am really beat and the nick escapes
me now acolyte. Really sharp fella though, seems like
he may have mentioned he was at Notre Dame.
[03:29] seed hey many believers are pretty
[03:29] newhon Icarus?
[03:29] newhon or Alcuin?
[03:29] Red - Not full at all. You stuck
me with an emotive statement and left without even
indicating you were leaving.
[03:29] Nosir, neither of them.
[03:29] Well, I'm going to get work done.
[03:29] Seedsower, what does it matter with
you? I am going to burn for eternity, and you will
be sucking on a lollipop on Jesu's lap for all of eternity.
[03:30] creation what?
[03:30] Action: FauxReal giggles inanely.
[03:30] bye Creation
[03:30] seedsower.. depends on the atheist..
not all are like that and I find that it mostly done
out of frustration over the theist not conforming to
the *rules* I guess of the argument
[03:30] creationdon't go yet
[03:30] RedTango - That's your choice.
[03:30] ie no preaching..back up your statements
[03:30] Krosis that swings both ways
[03:30] I have to sit thru a lot of name calling.
[03:30] Action: creation_ thinks fauxReal is infatuated
with that word, "inanely".
[03:30] Which isnt the most mature of things.
[03:30] redtango poor baby
[03:30] acolyte..depends on where you are..
[03:30] redtango and I don't?
[03:30] krosis true
[03:31] Red...why is survival better than
extinction? Why should our programming considered truth?
If we are all programmed the same, why doesn't every
culture have the same ethic?
[03:31] Krosis but both paradigms have their
[03:31] Indeed, but how can one argue the
bible with an atheist that thinks it's no more the
word of god than Oliver Twist is?
[03:31] Acolyte I seem to remember an ad hominem
swinging match betw you and me... one that I didn't
[03:31] Cassidy, because the earth is not
[03:31] creation: it's a scripted emote.
[03:32] Krosis no, I just accused you of stacking
the deck in essence if you recall correctly which you
misunderstood as an ad homenin
[03:32] Survival is "better" because we are
programmed to pursue it, and it pays off with more
humans. Evolution favors reproduction.
[03:32] whatever acolyte.. lets not start it
[03:57] AWE MAN
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