[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/27/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/27/96 [02:57] Red

---
Master Index Current Directory Index Go to SkepticTank Go to Human Rights activist Keith Henson Go to Scientology cult

Skeptic Tank!

[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/27/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/27/96 [02:57] RedTango (silver@ip238.lax.primenet.com) joined #apologetics. [02:57] milhous (ircle@199.218.197.247) joined #apologetics. [02:57] heh heh\ [02:57] hehe [02:59] so...I believe your answer was insufficient by virtue of its inability to give any reason to "value" any one ethical bellief over another...and yet we do, every day. [02:59] value has reason. [03:00] how? [03:00] I think the IRC format makes it a bit hard to clarify things [03:00] Especially when i have people firing at me constantly [03:00] Red...we are agreed on that! [03:00] FauxReal (ZCLL4@ETSU.east-tenn-st.edu) joined #apologetics. [03:00] I know. [03:00] This is my belief.. [03:00] does reason have value, tho? [03:01] ok... [03:01] as humans, we need rules, we need limits...these are defined by what we value, what are priorties are as a culture. i am not summing up the entire planet here..each culture is unique. [03:02] Peole have the capacity to set down rules and when they agree to abide by them, then the system is set into motion. [03:02] Belshon (vircuser@slip-46.ieway.com) joined #apologetics. [03:02] Outside of our lives here on this planet, adn our own activities, personal and societal goals, our values dont have any meaning. Our values are an invention we needed to survive. [03:02] hello [03:03] They apply to us, were made for us. [03:03] There is no God watching or giving commandments. [03:03] There isnt anyone keeping score, anyone with "absolute truths" from on high. [03:04] Belshon (vircuser@slip-46.ieway.com) left #apologetics. [03:04] I dont question our ability to do those things OR the necessity of them for the survival of a society. But that is prescriptive and doesn't answer the why. Why is survival valuable over deteriation? [03:04] creation_ (dcovalt@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu) joined #apologetics. [03:05] Cassidy: How do I check a note that is waiting for me on ApoloBot? [03:05] It is valauble simply because we are programmed to want to live and procreate. We are driven to do so by our nature as animals on this planet. There is no real reason to do it, we just are..we happen to be able to do it. [03:05] Seed: History books can be wrong, so if you are going to accept Christianity and the truth of the bible, you must do it through grace and [03:05] woops! [03:05] hehehe [03:06] creation...your asking the wrong guy. My abilities are severly limiten in this area. msg Nedflandrs if he is on irc.... [03:06] RedTango: Legacy of the first replicating molecules. [03:06] Deanr (deanh@KENDACO.TELEBYTE.COM) joined #apologetics. [03:06] milhous, eyah [03:06] Well, some of my favorite people here tonight..the ones who push back, all gathered around. [03:06] BabySnake (storm@cisco-ts8-line12.uoregon.edu) joined #apologetics. [03:06] hehehehe [03:07] All we need is Acolyte and it will be complete. [03:07] Of all the Tango's that I know.. Red is my favorite. :) [03:07] hehehe [03:07] Actually, I'm heading to bed.. just stopped by for a sec [03:08] well, thats fone [03:08] fine [03:08] its fone, too. [03:08] RedTango: Don't worry, he'll be here soon enough. Even though he is more than enough for you all by himself :) [03:08] Red...but what *justifies* the belief that those programmings are valuable? Some feel predisposed to kill, or abuse. They seem to be programmed also, yet they (hopefully) resist the desire. So programming alone doesn't =ethics. [03:08] creation, yeah, but all he talks about is the same thing. [03:08] night all [03:08] Cassidy_: Not a value judgment. [03:08] Deanr (deanh@KENDACO.TELEBYTE.COM) left #apologetics. [03:08] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) joined #apologetics. [03:08] Redtango: And that same thing is kicking your but :)] [03:08] Mode change '+o Acolyte ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [03:08] BabySnake (storm@cisco-ts8-line12.uoregon.edu) left #apologetics. [03:08] Nothing outside of our instinct to survive "justifies" it. [03:08] there you go. [03:08] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #apologetics. [03:09] RedTango has an ass of steel. [03:09] Acolyte's in bible. [03:09] Speaking of the Devil, hello Acolyte :) [03:09] cassidy: Collective programming maybe = ethics. [03:09] I was in #bible ;) [03:09] RedTango: I guess you do the Buns of Steel workout. [03:09] you beeter believe it [03:09] beeter! [03:09] hehehe [03:10] Red...then we have no philosophical reason to believe such. If I say nothing on Earth justifies my belief in God...you'll be all over my butt. Why should it be different for you? [03:10] creation your opinion of me is always so high. ;) [03:10] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #apologetics. [03:10] hehehe [03:10] creation...seek and ye shall find, eh? [03:11] We have plenty of "reasons" for it. Reasons are inventions as well. You have plently of things to justify your belief in God. Why people beleive in God isnt a mystery. [03:11] creation not even close [03:12] creation to bad she does not do the "Brains of Steel" work out ;) [03:12] Red...do reasons differ from culture to culture? Should I amend my logic if I move to the orient? If not, why are they so different than ethical systems? [03:12] Acolyte: hehehehehe [03:12] Red and why does Cassidy believe in God? [03:12] Cassidy, i would assume your logic would be different if you absorbed yourself into a different culture. [03:13] Cassidy can answer that better than i can [03:13] 51 seconds to creation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [03:13] ack [03:13] Red but why do you think he does? [03:14] Cassidy needs what God provides [03:14] Red...perhaps the perspective, but not the fabric of logic. A will never = non-A no matter how many cultures I live in. [03:14] Cassidy, thats because you have made up your mind and are not open to other concepts. [03:14] cassidy thats ~A BTW ;) [03:14] AHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH [03:14] LOL [03:15] ROFTL [03:15] Red...give me an alternative...Im open now...just for you. [03:15] An alternative to what, God? [03:15] redtango outside of the law of logic, there ARE NO ALTERNATIVES. [03:15] period [03:15] ~A.....excuuuuuuuuuusssssseeeeeeee MMMMMMMMMEEEE!!!! :-) [03:15] its just that simple. [03:16] Red...NO, to logic...to Adoes not =~A [03:16] Red, outside of the lea of contreadiction, there are no rational concepts [03:16] Well, I hate this. I never get kicked anymore in #bible, just gagged and made to sit there while others speak their minds. [03:16] an alternative to logic? [03:16] fauxreal its a preview to hell [03:16] What is? [03:16] Acolyte: hehehe [03:16] Faux...I can think of ways if you REALLY want to get kicked from Bible.... [03:16] faux being gagged and having to listen to fundies [03:16] Sitting in #bible is like Hell, man [03:16] heheheh [03:17] RED...YES! Give me one, just one. [03:17] Krosis (atjewe01@homer.louisville.edu) joined #apologetics. [03:17] Red now #Apologetics is mor elike prugatory or the Toll Houses [03:17] hullo krosis [03:17] heya [03:17] Oh boy, another one. [03:17] I know, sister. Who *you* tellin! ;) [03:17] beleif in the supernatural [03:17] Yep, i am being prepared for my ternity burning. [03:18] Action: Krosis gives creation a wither look...... [03:18] Red...hehe...took you long enuf to come up with that one.....no, give me an alternitive law to A does not = ~A [03:18] withering [03:18] It's kinda like my upbringing. I had to sit there in a fundamentalist pentacostal church and keep my mouth shut. [03:18] Faux, in heaven, they make the boys wear pants and the girls wear dresses. [03:18] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #apologetics. [03:18] just one. [03:18] fauxreal thats your problem [03:18] Well, I'm not going, then! ;) [03:18] cassidy, i dont understand what your point is. [03:19] faux no one here that I know is Pentacostal [03:19] FAUX...thats the problem. Penticostal. [03:19] Acolyte: WHy? [03:19] Acolyte: I'm not, either. [03:19] Faux, yeah, i dont need an eternity of conformity and cafeteria food. [03:19] Faux actually the majority of ppl here would look down theologically on Petacostals [03:19] faux naw really? ;) [03:19] Why, their almost like the Nazis on #Bible, right zx? ;) [03:20] faux you'll get over it hopefully [03:20] doh! ;) [03:20] SeedSower (seedsowr@ix-tac-wa1-19.ix.netcom.com) joined #apologetics. [03:20] uh oh [03:20] faux hey no one says you have to go to the channel [03:20] faux if you don't like it, thenleave the channel [03:20] zx Probably not. [03:20] hullo seed [03:20] Ac: I know, but it's fun. [03:20] Red...sure you do. You told me I conditioned myself to believe in the A=~A law and I needed to oped myself up to other possibilities...so, I am. Tell me how A CAN = ~A...or give me another law antithetical to the aforementioned that I can operate and communicate using. [03:20] faux the channel purpose here is not to bitch about how things are on #bible [03:21] Yo howdy all. [03:21] They kick me for the tiniest reason, ieven if I'm agreeing. [03:21] I never told you you NEEDED to open up to anything, or alter anything about yourself. [03:21] faux i prolly made a mistake letting it get open to denying the Word .. now the solution to that is to nip it in the bud and enforce the channel purpose more equally and cleanly .. i think you will like that even less [03:21] That's why I've learned to /ign logos9 for when somebody sends me the rules. [03:21] discussion = denying apparently.. [03:21] Faux, you are learning!!! [03:22] Kronis: IT does there. [03:22] naw we have really great discussions [03:22] Faux - You are probably being kicked by Achimoth, who has little tolerance for anything other than a strictly Bible topic. If I was opping, I would let you stay. [03:22] bye [03:22] Only when everybody agrees! [03:22] YEah, Achimoth kicks; zx humiliates by moderating. [03:22] faux ok change the topic, or go private ok [03:22] Red...I want to know If I CAN, and still maintain rationality. Tell me, can I? How? I know only one way to understand this keyboard...and that is that it is a keyboard and not a non-keyboard. [03:22] actually seed noone that i know of devoiced him .... however i have no problem with it .. he knows ... he just dont like it ... [03:23] faux change the topic, I did not come here to hear youwine [03:23] zx - Huh? [03:23] zx: doesn't. [03:23] faux that s why apologetics is good place for you .. you can dispute here .. [03:23] zx she is wining is all so far [03:23] well get used to that heheeee [03:24] Cassidy, changing a viewpoint is a bit different. Sometimes our expereinces in life open us up to another side of an issue we may have refused to feel had any validity. Experience. [03:24] or dont [03:24] faux...dispute to your hearts content. [03:24] I never whine in #bible. [03:24] faux you are whining NOW [03:24] seed i dont know how faux got devoiced i didnt do it [03:24] I know. [03:24] zx: You moderated. [03:24] but its not something i disagree with [03:24] Why does it bother atheists so much to have believers around? [03:24] galileo (galileo@n154.solano.community.net) joined #apologetics. [03:24] Ac: I'm looking for a point to jump in. [03:24] redtango can you name one experience that does not confomr to the Law of contradiction? [03:24] no faux if i devoice you you will see !dv fauxreal [03:25] Gasp! Galileo's back! [03:25] seed guilt [03:25] i dont ever devoice any other way [03:25] Red...I am a friend to experience...the same experience that is tellin me that you have no rational response to the question proposed. [03:25] i kick other ways but not devoice [03:25] Seedsower, some of us seek you out purposely. I have had more expereince with believers not wanting atheists around. [03:25] bye [03:25] What is devoiced? [03:25] zx: When you !moderat 1, Idon't get revoiced. [03:25] Amen! RED! ;) [03:25] Cassidy, i could sit here all night and give you sane, reasonable answers and you will reject them all, what more can I do for you? [03:25] faux take it private [03:25] Newhon (mtl1989@dialin4.remote.okstate.edu) joined #apologetics. [03:25] hullo newhon [03:25] Howdy all [03:25] bye, zx [03:26] howdy [03:26] Mode change '+o Newhon ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [03:26] faux well that is maybe a tedhnical problem or prolly cause you have such a hight bad level that the bot looks around at the bad levels and says egads this guy is a problem in genereal [03:26] Seed: Most atheists get harrassed so by believers, they just don't want to go through it anymore. [03:26] Acolyte, fellas was lookin fo ryou the other night. Tryin to remember his nick. [03:26] RedTango - Do you feel that way about me? I never said or even hinted that I didn't want you around. It's been my experience with you that if I open myself up to you and be honest you burn me with an emotive jab and then leav e in an instant. [03:26] i did not devocie you faux whenever i do you will know it and see it on screen [03:26] RedTango: Reject them all with rational and logical arguments. That should tell you something, shouldn't it? [03:26] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #apologetics. [03:27] Red, You always say that...and SOME of your answers ARE rational when you give them. I've seen it. However, you are known for slipping from argument with premises and all to commentary. I wish you'd see these arguments thru. [03:27] Seedsower, you are relly full of it on that one. I left our last talk because it was really late and the conversation was over. Like i am not a confrontation person. You know quite well i stick out debates as long as I can stay awake. [03:27] creation, no, it doesnt [03:28] newhn let me know what nick [03:28] cassidy you ain't the only one [03:28] cassidy Lorrin has flipped out BTW [03:28] RedTango: It should [03:28] Cassidy, then lets take ONE situation and let me go to the end of it woth you. [03:28] Pick ONE thing, [03:28] Aco...you told me. I gotta go hear it for myself. Doesn't really surprise mr tho.... [03:28] Red well if you would stick with debates as long as you are rational then you would not have to worry about staybing awake. [03:28] Red - It is also my experience in dealing with atheists that they are hypocrites in their own right. They claim to be rational and logical but when they encounter a believer (especially when they are in groups) they resort to the most absurd fallacies especially in the ad hominem, red herring types. [03:28] cassidy its a phase I think [03:28] I am really beat and the nick escapes me now acolyte. Really sharp fella though, seems like he may have mentioned he was at Notre Dame. [03:29] seed hey many believers are pretty stupid too [03:29] newhon Icarus? [03:29] newhon or Alcuin? [03:29] Red - Not full at all. You stuck me with an emotive statement and left without even indicating you were leaving. [03:29] Nosir, neither of them. [03:29] Well, I'm going to get work done. [03:29] Seedsower, what does it matter with you? I am going to burn for eternity, and you will be sucking on a lollipop on Jesu's lap for all of eternity. [03:29] bye [03:30] creation what? [03:30] Action: FauxReal giggles inanely. [03:30] bye Creation [03:30] seedsower.. depends on the atheist.. not all are like that and I find that it mostly done out of frustration over the theist not conforming to the *rules* I guess of the argument [03:30] creationdon't go yet [03:30] RedTango - That's your choice. [03:30] ie no preaching..back up your statements etc. [03:30] Krosis that swings both ways [03:30] I have to sit thru a lot of name calling. [03:30] Action: creation_ thinks fauxReal is infatuated with that word, "inanely". [03:30] Which isnt the most mature of things. [03:30] redtango poor baby [03:30] acolyte..depends on where you are.. [03:30] redtango and I don't? [03:30] krosis true [03:31] Red...why is survival better than extinction? Why should our programming considered truth? If we are all programmed the same, why doesn't every culture have the same ethic? [03:31] Krosis but both paradigms have their idiots [03:31] Indeed, but how can one argue the bible with an atheist that thinks it's no more the word of god than Oliver Twist is? [03:31] Acolyte I seem to remember an ad hominem swinging match betw you and me... one that I didn't start.. ;) [03:31] Cassidy, because the earth is not uniform. [03:31] creation: it's a scripted emote. [03:32] Krosis no, I just accused you of stacking the deck in essence if you recall correctly which you misunderstood as an ad homenin [03:32] Survival is "better" because we are programmed to pursue it, and it pays off with more humans. Evolution favors reproduction. [03:32] whatever acolyte.. lets not start it again.. [03:54] hi [03:57] BACK [03:57] AWE MAN [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_3_27_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

---

E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank