[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/6/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/6/96 [04:14] Shrou

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[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/6/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/6/96 [04:14] Shroud (yabba-dab@max2-so-ca-49.earthlink.net) joined #apologetics. [04:14] hullo [04:14] hi shroud!! [04:14] cheers [04:14] DaJester (dwhunter@ainet.com) joined #apologetics. [04:14] is aplobot a bible bot? [04:14] hello. [04:15] Action: Achimoth finally notices shrouds, Flintstones reference [04:15] shroud now you seem to attribute lots of cruelty and other attrocities to xianity. whatis the problem that that? [04:15] with that even [04:15] gennie yes [04:15] that that? please re-ask [04:15] grin [04:15] ok [04:15] acolyte are you a bible thumper? [04:15] gennie no [04:16] not to be taken offensively if answeris yes. [04:16] gennie do I look like one? [04:16] ok [04:16] thump thump thump [04:16] i dont know i cant see you [04:16] Gennie: Yes [04:16] laugh [04:16] If atheists went around slaughtering people like theists tend to do, you would have no problem accusing them of a weakness due to a lack of belief in god [04:16] shroud, can I ask yous omething? [04:16] Action: BullFrog` whacks Gennie with his twenty pound Bible. [04:16] ouch [04:16] shroud: actually atheists have.. see Russian revolution [04:16] indeed, you blame atheists for that anyway, when we are free from that history. Yes, ask me anything [04:16] Action: Gennie bursts into flames [04:16] shroud are marxists Atheists? [04:16] chuckle [04:17] Shroud yes or no will suffice [04:17] I do not say atheists are free from the petty rivalries, and yes, they have killed, but their history is that of victim - victim of *your* beliefs [04:17] what is a marxist [04:17] shroud was Stalin a victim? [04:17] shroud: oh really? [04:17] HiBrow (chipper@chipper.ihug.co.nz) joined #Apologetics. [04:17] hi [04:17] hi hibrow [04:17] hullo hibrow [04:17] afk for a sec [04:18] Action: Achimoth thinks of many people in powerful positions in history that were not christian nor were they theists of any kind [04:18] Marxist: someone who believs in the ideals of Carl Marx [04:18] but if someone could briefly explain marxism to me, i would like that [04:18] evenin' all. Just having a quick look around. [04:18] shroud were the Bolshiveiks victims? [04:18] what is the point of this? Do you want me to list all the atrocities in your history? Stalin was an asshole. So was Hitler. hitler believed he was on a mission from God. Stalin was a mental defective [04:18] thats Karl Marx [04:18] dajes: who is carl marx/ [04:18] Hitler was a theosphist disciple [04:18] Marx believed that the ideal society would not need religion [04:18] shround 1. Hitler was an Occultist. 2 Stalin was an Atheist [04:18] Action: BullFrog` wonders if atheists believe Adolf Hitler was a Christian .... after all He was one bad dude. [04:19] theosophist even [04:19] bullfrog he was in Theosphy [04:19] how about we list the *psychological* damage your christianity has foisted on humanity - millions and millions of people for 2000 years [04:19] Helena Blavatsky [04:19] Quote from Spike Milligan: "Communism is great, but to make it work, all the people under it's power must become like jelly." [04:19] shroud lets say you do. SO WHAT? [04:19] Carl Marx created the frame work for comunism [04:19] shroud why is it wrong to do that to ppl? [04:19] oh now its psychological damage.. :) [04:19] communism in a pure form isnt a bad idea [04:19] :O [04:19] shroud on what possible ethical basis are youappealing to? [04:19] So, this is why I fear your theistic beliefs. It is time to grow up and leave the supernatural tales of old men and priests who were trying to control wild tribes [04:20] "religion is the opiate of the masses."-Marx [04:20] Wasn't that Mao? [04:20] shroud I askeda question, could you answer if for me, if not I will understand that youc annot defend yor position [04:20] shroud why is it wrong to do that to ppl? [04:20] hibrow: marx was da orginal [04:20] Mao was marxist [04:20] OK, point taken. [04:20] And if everybody was good, and behaved on their own, we wouldn't need to scare them with tales of eternal damnation [04:20] jako (jak@204.50.229.169) joined #Apologetics. [04:21] Acolyte, rephrase your question - i am being hit on all sides here. Is WHAT wrong to...etc [04:21] Gennie: let me ask you some basic questions ..... What od you believe most people believe about satan .... would they say Satan is ugly ... or would they say He is a beautifull shinning angel? [04:21] dajester or Law, guess the LAw is a myth too eh? [04:21] dajester spiritual enlightenment shouldnt be based on fear [04:21] That may be so, but the fact is that nobody is totally good! [04:21] a beautiful shining angl [04:21] shroud whyis it wrong to do anything that you accuse xianity of doing? [04:21] bull: what MOST people believe? they have been brought to believe that he rules hell in where you will go if you 'sin' [04:22] Basic ethical morals or right or wrong. Golden Rule, if you will (not original with bible, BTW) [04:22] Gennie: YOu are right, it shouldn't, but it often is [04:22] Gennie: Is he ugly? [04:22] HiBrow (chipper@chipper.ihug.co.nz) left #Apologetics. [04:22] dajester ok.. we are in agreement [04:22] shroud, which onception of ethics? there are literally millions of them, which one? [04:22] bull: i dunno.. physically? [04:22] bull: i always pictured 'him' like an italian [04:23] bull: in good shape. for a guy his age.. [04:23] shroud which view of ethics? there are somany [04:23] bull: but.. i dunno.. [04:23] 2Cor11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (KJV) [04:23] Acolyte - look, I am not interested in playing this game. We are all aware of simplistic things - if you hit a person with a club, then you can be expected to get hit back. I am not interested in ultimate source or ultimate star ts or ultimate big bangs or logic etc. I am interested in educating people out of their ancient, dangerous superstitious beliefs. [04:23] Gennie: the only point I'm making is that the best lie is one that clocks itself in the truth [04:23] Gennie: I have my own idea of what a true christian would be like, but I don't think I have met a person yet who fits that [04:23] cloaks [04:24] I know what apologetics is - I've been here b4. I only came here because you asked me too [04:24] shroud that is only the case if there are morals. I don't think your paradigm can support a belief in ethics at all [04:24] dajes: me neither.. [04:24] i am not a christian. [04:24] bullfrog: or in other words, honey is better than vinegar.. [04:24] Ac - what is your point [04:24] bull; i didnt get your point, im sorry. [04:25] Gennie: the point is that the best lie sounds awfully good [04:25] shroud, how do you get ethics from states of Nature? Should bears feel guilty for killing other animals? Killing is natural,so is rape etc etc [04:25] Gennie: Did you used to go to church? [04:25] shroud all the things youdetest are perfectly natural things, why do you have a problem with them? [04:25] shroud: if beginning dont matter then how did we get here? [04:25] Gennie: and that the most evil people would pretend to be Christians .... [04:25] daj: yeah.. went to a private lutheran school. was some of the worst years of my life.. i am highly spiritual.. but in 'god'? i dont know.. [04:25] Gennie: because it is the most effective way to destroy people [04:26] We are not animals. We have an intelligence and a consciousness. We have instincts and early reptilian brains. you theisms excite the fear of death we all naturally have, and that is why there is 90% of you, and 2% of me. [04:26] nod bull.. but i thought you were a christian [04:26] shroud religion, fear, killing, anger, violence, are all natural, Why do you have a problem? [04:26] sroud we are animals but more sophisticated is all. [04:26] Gennie: Spiritual how? [04:26] Gennie: the point is that a Christian is one that follows the teachings of Jeus Christ [04:26] shroud: shroud make accusations but back it up with little actual logic [04:26] dajester.. i dont know laugh.. im agnostic.. i dont have proof that there is a god.. but i like to think that there is something.. i just dont know what [04:26] Gennie: the very one that said that to hate your brother without a cause was eqivalent to murder [04:26] shroud, if we are not an animla is there anything that is not physical in us? [04:27] Alcolyte: But Jesus asks us to be nice, not be animals [04:27] I have a problem when a man jumps into a bus and blows up innocent people becuz his gods tell him so. All theistic beliefs are tainted thus. If you guys would pray to yourselves like your gods command you, the world would be a l ot nicer [04:27] Shroud, consciousness is merely chemical reactions in the brain. All your ideas are mere chemical reactions [04:27] dejester he does? so [04:27] Bullfrog! A christian is actually one who accept Christ as his savior! [04:27] shroud ok, but nature disposes us to be mean, what s the problem? [04:27] jako: that is part of following Christ [04:27] man is a naturally violent being... [04:28] shroud you are accusing but you have not justified the ethical basis from which you are coming fron. please do so [04:28] Alcolyte: Are you not a christian? [04:28] shroud whyis violence wrong if nature dispsoes us to it? [04:28] jako: from what i understand there is more than just accepting christ involved with christianity [04:28] You know what, Acolyte, you may live in this strange little world all you like. Life is a one-time shot with no second chance and no afterlife. It is so evident that these so-called "chemical reactions in the b rain have evolved us ethically so far away and above the petty interests of the bible, it's not even funny [04:28] dajester yes I am, but he cannot acuse us of ethical wrongs if he has no ethical system now can he? Not consistently anyhow [04:28] Gennie: Yes ..... following Him too ..... [04:28] Lavender (nowhere@max1-800-34.earthlink.net) left irc: Read error to Lavender[max1-800-34.earthlink.net]: Connection reset by peer [04:28] The only reson anything is "wrong" is when it is harmfull to society [04:29] jako: I iagree [04:29] shroud ok, so how do you know that is right tho if the chemcials forces youto think that way? [04:29] dejester, how do you know society is to be valued as a consequence tho? [04:29] dajester begs the question [04:30] Who wants to play your "logic" games? your history is what it is. It is so because of the beliefs of your so-called gods. Let's say it is "inconsistent". So what? It's better than your petty murder and endless psychological blackmail [04:30] can we not accept that believing in something no matter what it is is a faith, and if it makes someone feel better, then, hell.. let em think what they want [04:30] Alcolyte: THere is this thing called society, and it helps us to live [04:30] dejester if I value X, then everythng that harms X is evil and everything that benefits X is good, fine. I agree, but why is X to be valued AT ALL?? that is what I shish to know [04:30] shroud: what do you believe. [04:30] i came in late [04:30] Gennie - atheist. [04:30] shroud you sound very bitter [04:30] shroud ok :) [04:30] Gennie - an atheist who lurks in bible and listens to endless divisiveness based on the ramblings of a superstition [04:31] shroud please, how do you know that there are ethics at all? since all your concepts are determined by nature? [04:31] shroud why are you so angry at nature for making us what we are? [04:31] Acolyte - I am angry. I see too many people die at the hands of fools who claim an old book to be some kind of divine word - and the wars are endless [04:31] dejester if I value X, then everythng that harms X is evil and everything that benefits X is good, fine. I agree, but why is X to be valued AT ALL?? that is what I shish to know [04:31] Socity is to be valuse because it helps us live longer fuller lives [04:31] Shroud: I would recommend finding a silent place ... to read the Psalmns .... [04:31] dajester circular argument, why value long life? [04:32] shroud I see many ppl die for selfishness, so what? it is perfectly natural [04:32] We value life because It is a basic instinct! [04:32] I am angry today. I feel empathy and sympathy for those people. they are dead. Gone. good-bye forever. Who's fault is it? Atheists? Hell, no. We laugh at your endless appeals to gods [04:32] dajester why value X at all? Youjust moved the problem one more step is all [04:32] the main thing i disagree with 'christian' or mainstream religion is all the guilt inflicted.. thats really lame [04:32] psychologically messes people up [04:32] Gennie: that is true [04:32] shroud why did the Sadinistas kill tens of thousands of ppl? God? No. Humanisitc ideaology. [04:32] We have the will for self-preservation, that's what makes us alive! [04:33] dajester how do you know that waht you do instictively is what you out to do? [04:33] shroud sounds like he just lashing out at everybody.... [04:33] Gennie: it is really lame ... especially when Jesus paid the price for our sins [04:33] dajester males instictively rape too [04:33] It is not natural. It is for an unnatural reason - the belif in the supernatural. Look, we have enough reasons to kill one another, and we are slowly getting over them. Racism isconsidered stupid and foolish, and so on. the on e thing we can't seem to overcome is theism, because it is so horrifically ingrained in us at birth. [04:34] Don't pin rape on a particular sex [04:34] shroud you have given no ethical bassi for you allagations I guess you have none. sorry to hear that [04:34] dajester ok humans instictively rape, kill etc etc [04:34] racism and prejudice is being overcome????????????/ [04:34] bullfrog its all faith... i dont believe all that anyway.. i like the bible.. i think its a great book, but i dont worship the bible or anything for that matter [04:34] in which part of the world? [04:34] dajester how do you know whatis natural is what you ought to do? [04:34] As animals, we have the will to have sex, we have the will to survive, and we have the will to eat, and the will to have many other pleasures [04:34] Acolyte - when the history of atheism matches the history of theism INCLUDING THE PSYCHOLOGICAL RAPE, then you can point to atheistic ideologys gone wrong [04:34] shroud how do you iknow what you are determined to think is true? [04:35] shroud 200+ million in 150 yrs=ATHEISM [04:35] And everything can be traced back to those basic wants [04:35] shroud more than all the religious wars COMBINED [04:35] shroud: accuse theists of things that cannot be substantiated [04:35] dajester ok how doyou know those wants are true? [04:35] Shroud: Do you feel psychologically raped ...? [04:35] shroud, why is killing wrong? [04:35] Shroud: seriouslt .... [04:36] bullfrog prolly a formwer fundy [04:36] True? Explain what you mean be true? [04:36] bullfrog, prolly a former fundy, I have seen it a mill times [04:36] by true [04:36] Aco - you asre determined to pull me into this logic game, aren't you. No. I won't do it. I know the truth, and that's that. and who am I lashing out at? Theists? YOU have made the world thus. Stop bickering over your petty little gods and start living decent lives. Worry about the here and now. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize in the afterlife [04:36] Action: DaJester gives Gennie a whole bouquet of roses [04:36] Shroud: maybe you have been :( [04:36] Action: DaJester gives jako a whole bouquet of roses [04:36] Action: DaJester gives Shroud a whole bouquet of roses [04:36] shroud: you accuse but offer no proof [04:36] dajester, well I can be determined by nature to thin 2+2 is 10, but is it? No. [04:36] hey thanks dajester [04:36] thanx Da. Back attya. [04:37] Shroud: Jesus heals people that have been pshchologically raped. [04:37] Everyone loves Flowers!!! [04:37] Action: DaJester gives BullFrog` a whole bouquet of roses [04:37] Action: DaJester gives anselm a whole bouquet of roses [04:37] Action: DaJester gives Achimoth a whole bouquet of roses [04:37] Action: DaJester gives Acolyte a whole bouquet of roses [04:37] Yes, I was raised as a theist. Of course I feel raped. Do you think you can be raised threatened with eternal hell and not carry it with you asll your life. [04:37] bullfrog: jesus is dead. he's been dead for a long long time. [04:37] shroud if you are not gonna justify your clames please leave then [04:37] shroud I was never threatened with hell grwoing up. My father was an Atheist [04:37] Since when does nature do math?? [04:37] dajester the point [04:38] Jesus is alive [04:38] dajester the point is, if you are determined, how do you know what you think is true? [04:38] no.. he really is dead. [04:38] dajester accurate? [04:38] gennie how do youknow that? [04:38] gennie: He is Risen.. I've seen him/ [04:38] Gennie:are you any less guilty of psychological rape then you claim Christains are ... Jesus Christ is precious to me ... my only hope ... why are you pshychologically raping me :( [04:38] shroud we are only interested in ppl who are willing to discuss and justify their claims not spout their rhetoric [04:38] Great, Acolyte. you invite me here and then kick me out. what a wonderful person you must be. And you weren't asked if you felt psychologically raped, I was. I don't care that your father was an atheist. I only care that this world is in a sorry state thanx to theism. [04:39] because his body if it were alive would have decayed while he was still living.. he was born almost 2000 years ago. human life span is 80 years [04:39] shroud and then you will be dead. so what? [04:39] shroud: no matter hw many times you scream an accusation without logic or proof you are just pshing air with your mouth [04:39] shroud if you cannot justify your claims rationally,leave. What kind of perosn merely complains but offers not rational support? [04:39] Alcolyte: Nobody can really know anything is true, because it all comes down to what we percieve, but that is getting into philosophy, and it's all very silly [04:39] bull: im not telling you not to believe in what you want.. im just saying life span for humans ends on an average of 80 years.. [04:39] Jesus is Risen..... [04:39] Gennie: do you wnat to get even that badly? [04:39] ach how did you see him.. [04:40] did he buy you a shiney new car? [04:40] Action: DaJester offers free hugs to anyone who wants one [04:40] bull: get even? not at all.. [04:40] dajester I am a philosopher, and no it is not silly. Bit on a naturlalistic basis, knowldge and ethics are not possible, THATis the problem [04:40] gennie: would you believe a vision? (probably not, butits true) [04:40] Gennie: It is true ..... if Jesus Christ is not risen my faith is in vain ... [04:40] dajester only Theism offers Epistemology and Ethics [04:40] im not trying to get even.. just stating a fact.. that if i were born 2000 years ago i would be dead. [04:40] ach that is not physically alive. [04:40] Gennie: mircales are fact also [04:40] gennie, ok that aplies for you, how do you know it applies to Jesus? [04:40] Gennie: his body isnt mortal flesh anymore [04:41] you guys invited me here, did you not? I didn't want to come into this room in the 1st place, due to knowing it was not the right room. Now you ask me to leave because I reject you demand for "rational justific ation". OK - [04:41] ooooooooooohhhhh [04:41] archimoth Immortal flesh [04:41] ok so a DIFFERENT meaning of ALIVE [04:41] shroud yup [04:41] i meant he's not walking the earth as jesus [04:41] Gennie: Your sould will continue forever ...... [04:41] gennie no he is alive, like you, but he won't die again [04:41] no ac [04:41] no no no [04:41] he's not alive like me. [04:41] gennie: not at the moment no [04:41] gennie how do you know? [04:41] Evidence of scientific reality. No evidence of god or gods - same proof of god Jehovah as there is for Zeus. Now you'll ask me how do I "know" what I know? Stupid and pointless. [04:42] Alcolyte: depending on how you define "ethics" then you could be right, but we can still have values and rules and laws without the existence of a higher power [04:42] because he died a long long time ago [04:42] but he is Jesus and he is living [04:42] if you want to say his spirit lives, ok.. [04:42] but he isnt alive like you and me [04:42] his glorified body lives as well [04:42] or at least me.. [04:42] shroud what scholarly material have you read from a Thesitic point of view? [04:42] not sure how alive you are.. hhehehe [04:42] Shroud: how about over 200 fulfilled prophecies by Jesus Christ supporting His claim of being the Messiah? [04:42] Irrefutable evidence [04:43] shroud, how can you verify a universal begative? "No evidence of God"?? [04:43] shroud: your accusation are what is stupid and pointless here... [04:43] shroud, how can you verify a universal negative? "No Evidence of God..."?? [04:43] Ok everybody!!! [04:43] you refuse to make any points [04:43] Group HUG!!!! [04:43] grin jes [04:43] just accusations [04:43] Action: DaJester herd everybody together, and hugs them all!!!! [04:43] shroud do U KNOW all scientifici evidence? No, hence false claim, cannot verify a universal negative [04:43] hers [04:43] well,I'm off to bed [04:44] bye achimoth [04:44] shroud what scholarly material have you read from a Thesitic point of view? [04:44] c ya later aco [04:44] goodnight everyone [04:44] Achimoth (adarcaan@dal25-19.ppp.iadfw.net) left irc: To sleep... perchance to dream.... (KP96) [04:44] you're wasting my time. Let's say you're all right. God exists, son Jesus, the whole shebang,. How about you start justifying your bloody history [04:44] shroud easy [04:44] shroud we don't [04:44] jako (jak@204.50.229.169) left #Apologetics. [04:44] shroud christians have done evil, just like everyone else [04:45] so? [04:45] shroud point taken and dealt with. now what? [04:45] And you take no steps to rectify it. you simply continue making sure all socieites are under your thumb. [04:45] I do? [04:45] how do I do that? [04:45] do you watch me day and night? [04:45] do you read my mind? [04:45] Shroud: God is not responsible for the acts of men who are wolves in sheeps clothing .... the Bible itself warns us...what more do you wnat .. Jesus warned us BEWARE ... what is so odd ...your position actually supports the cla ims of scripture! [04:45] No, I think not [04:45] Theists. Theism. Gods that are notoriously EXACTLY what their creators want them to be [04:46] Shroud: If you are a christian, that suposedly means that all of your sins are forgiven because of Jesus, it doesn't mean you are a better person on this earth [04:46] shroud circular argument for one, secondly, how do U know I do nothing about things wrong in my religion? [04:46] DaJester - it means you have a trap door to avoid all responsibility [04:46] nod shroud [04:46] i agree with you shroud on that [04:46] shroud youlike making claims about ppl, but I think you're really just pissed off cause someone dissed ya [04:47] Acolyte - I will try again once more. I am talking about theism. I am talking about what theism does to people in general. [04:47] i think a lot of the time religion allows a scapegoat for peoples actions rather than take responsibility [04:47] shroud ok WHAT HAS IT DONE TO ME? [04:47] Look at the state the world is in and you have your answer [04:47] shroud ppl don't need religion for a scapegoat [04:47] Action: Gennie stands behind shroud [04:47] Shroud: Exactly, it just means that if you do bad in this life, HEY! don't wory you'll get to spen eternity in heaven if you accept Jesus!! [04:47] ac i sadi that not him [04:47] shroud so? Youa re going to balme it all on religin? OH PLEASE [04:47] Shroud: Yes.... people give up guns and knives ... I've seen gang members come to Christ ... prostitutes stop ... etc...... [04:47] Action: Shroud Shroud thanx Gennie [04:47] more like MONEY, Land and POWER [04:47] and yes they do.. look at catholisism [04:48] Shroud: I suppose they too are "psychological victims"? [04:48] [Tony] (tony@slip13.dtx.net) joined #Apologetics. [04:48] a guy goes and screws 3 women behind his wifes back.. goes to confession.. ping ping all better [04:48] hey tony [04:48] tony feel free to jump in [04:48] hi tony [04:48] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #APOLOGETICS. [04:48] gennie not quite [04:48] I absolutely blame it on all religions, not just vchristianity. I blame it bbecause it hypocritically makes ppl concerned about "over there" when "over here" is whats important [04:48] hey zx [04:48] <[Tony]> Ciao Aco and Gennie [04:48] ac totally [04:49] waht do you mean not quite [04:49] HI [04:49] hi zx [04:49] Gennie: Not the kind of repentance and life changing God is into .. that man is lying to himself! [04:49] shround ok, I feed the hungry in my area, what do YOU DO? [04:49] HI GEN [04:49] bull: im talking mainstream people using religion as a cop out to their responsibilities. [04:49] shroud I am VERY politically active, I feed and clothe women and children in cirsis pregnancies,w hat do you DO? [04:49] shroud I donate my time at a shelter for the poor, cause mI LIVED IN A BOX BEFORE. WHAT DO YOU DO? [04:49] NOTHING [04:50] SO STOP COMPLAING TO ME [04:50] GEEZ [04:50] I am extremely active in feeding the hungry, helping the poor. etc. what is your point? Obviously you believe religion makes you a better person. Fine Chew that cud I don't care. It's when your theism [04:50] Alcolyte: None of that matters, it only matters that we accept Jesus Christ as our savior!!! [04:50] shroud how many days have you gone without FOOD? [04:50] Gennie: I will be direct ... your barrier to salvation is believeing that somehow the truth is undermined by people that claim to live it and don't ---- this is simply not the case. [04:50] overrides and dictates the values of EVERYONE that I take issue. It's when your theism divides that it must be halted. It's when it hurts more than it helps that it must be stopped [04:51] bull: i am only stating a fact that a LOT of people who go to church are either: denying responsibility, OR are so feared up with guilt and the thought of going to 'hell' [04:51] shroud, the point is that u accused me of doing nothing but I do plenty [04:52] shroud secondly, how many atheist missins to Ethipia are there or have been? NOne. It is the ATHEIST govermnet that is causing those ppl to die [04:52] BULL: thats not to say ALL of them do that. but A LOT do.. [04:52] shroud its a fact. [04:52] SHROUD you sound like pol pot or stalin or mao or somebody - this religion stuff is the opiate of the people - does only harm : trouble they all went on to murder milions upon millions of their own people like history has never seen b efore [04:52] Action: BullFrog` believes that it has always been difficult to be a true man of faith .... [04:52] ac why bother with ethiopia.. they have their own religions [04:52] identified with evil [04:52] shourd but on your basis all division and pain is natural. Why do you pick and choose? [04:52] hated without a cause [04:52] Alcolyte: Atheist government?!?!?!?!?!?!? What in the hell are you smoking!?!?!?!?!? [04:52] gennie the point is that the Atheists have caused the starvation en masse there [04:53] dajester Ethipia=Communist [04:53] dajester I know ppl from there [04:53] ac i think that ethiopia is just very poor.. thats what happens with no money.. you starve. [04:53] murdered .. believeing people were doing God a favor [04:53] Ohh you are talking about etheopia [04:53] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #APOLOGETICS. [04:53] I thought you were talking about the US [04:53] <[Tony]> zx: I think you make a good point. [04:53] besides dajester the government has no place for religion.. [04:54] gennie communism does nt help especially when they take all the UN food shipments and deny it to ppl who are religious. U christian? Oh no food for you. U Moselm? Oh No food for u. [04:54] And Christians themselves have been murdered by poeople that claim to be "christians" [04:54] genie its a fact. the UN has done LOTS of studies to prove it as well [04:54] Acolyte - I will state this for the last time. Please copy it down. When atheism matches theism in bloody history and psyxchological rape of the human mind, then you can point to modern countries that are atheist doing evil [04:54] anselm (nobyte@slip98.UCS.ORST.EDU) left irc: Ping timeout for anselm[slip98.UCS.ORST.EDU] [04:54] shroud 200 Million in thelast 150 yes=Athiesm, more than all the treligious wars combined [04:54] shroud 200 Million in thelast 150 yes=Athiesm, more than all the treligious wars combined [04:55] shroud 200 Million in thelast 150 yes=Athiesm, more than all the treligious wars combined [04:55] Shroud COPY THAT DOWN [04:55] ac ethiopia is an extremely poor country.. THE UNITED STATES shouldnt even be giving them food anyway.. WE have people starving HERE [04:55] Shroud: A personal relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior does not bring about what you are talking about ... it is the rejection of Christ ... that does. [04:55] I am not a communist. I don't think rleigion is the opiate of the people. I am for free worship if you want. I beleive that to be theistic you are creating a false division where none exists. [04:55] gennie we have more food than any other country [04:55] <[Tony]> shroud: Perhaps you could think of one or two things that were "good" and which benefitted mankind greatly? [04:55] ac then why are OUR people starving [04:55] shroud ok, on what ethical basis do you make that claim? [04:55] Shroud: Jesus said that many say Lord Lord and I neve knew you [04:55] gennie bad distribution of resource [04:55] gennie bad distribution of resources [04:56] Shroud: what could be clearer .... [04:56] brb [04:56] Bullfrog - JC is based on threats and promises. Why would I a) fall for that, and b) believe in a philosophy cribbed from ealrier philosophers? [04:56] ac let them defend for themselves anyway.. its not our problem to be 'mommie' to all other countries.. feed our people first., if we have extra, then give it.. but i dont give a crap about other countries till ours is fixed. [04:56] Tony - re-ask, please? [04:56] Shroud: because in accepting Jesus Christ as Savior you are accepting eternal life. [04:57] Shroud: and the joy of knowing God and having peace with God. [04:57] gennie will ours ever be fixed? [04:57] Bull - and if I don't? what eternal punsihment does your god have in store for me? [04:57] <[Tony]> shroud: I just thought you might be able to think of one or two things that Christians have done which was good and benefitted mankind greatly? [04:57] bull what if you believe in eternal life anyway [04:57] shroud how do you know that Xianity borrowed from other philosophies? (This I GOTTA HEar) [04:57] ac not until we stop trying to fix everyone else [04:57] Shroud: the one you have chosen for yourself ..... [04:57] please hold, Aco- I'll get to it. [04:58] gennie what if I do? so I should neglect doing good ebcause I will live forever? wrong [04:58] shroud ohplease do [04:58] Christianity hasn't been around forever [04:58] shroud I have forgotten more philosophy than youwill ever read [04:58] dajester nah really? [04:58] ac no.. no reason you cant be good and not believe in jesus as your savior [04:58] dajester no duh [04:58] Acolyte - you are rude. [04:58] nod shroud [04:58] gennie sure but you have no rational basis for it either, WHICH IS the point [04:58] What a sterling theist you are [04:59] ac sure i do.. [04:59] ac i have no rational basis to believe in a guy who lived a long long time ago... but i can still be a good person and do good for others.. [04:59] Shroud: And those 200 plus prophecies that Christ fullfilled ... what say you? [04:59] shroudn hey I have been more than nice, and you have beeninsulting my very way of lifefor 30 minutes and you refuse to give any rational basis for your ethical CLAIMS. [04:59] gennie what is good? Define it [05:00] shroud so start giving some reasons of shut up. I am not interested in yor Pity part and self righteousness [05:00] of=or [05:00] <[Tony]> Shroud: Could you not think of any? Maybe hospitals, public schools, etc. [05:00] good? good is giving out positive energy.. good is helping people.. (especially those closest to you (ie country) good is not killing or stealing or violating other people [05:00] You invited me here and then began demanding I leave, Acolyte. I do not mean to insult your way of life I have often stated it's fine with me that you have the beliefs you have. I am concerned about the general result of such be liefs. [05:00] tony linear view of history, progress etc [05:01] gennie ok, why be good? [05:01] ac why not? [05:01] gennie those are examples of GOOD. I want a defintion of it [05:01] ac duh [05:01] gennie why not be evil? Why not be nothing [05:01] ? [05:01] why not? [05:01] ac what is your point.. want me to get the damned websters??? [05:01] Bull, those 200 prophecies are written by men who need them to be true. Occam;'s razor - what is more likely - they lie to match up things to support their messianic claims, or they are supernaturally true? [05:01] shroud Occam was a Christian theologian by the way [05:02] ac dont let me believe that you are saying people cant be good unless they believe jesus christ is their savior [05:02] shroud Occam said that is was simplier to believe xianity than materialism [05:02] shroud do't epmply Occam unles you have red him slick [05:02] i am a good person.. i dont believe jesus is my savior,, i believe he existed, dunno if i believe mary was a virgin.. [05:02] gennie I asked a question, please answer it [05:02] There you go, Tony - one for the Christians. BTW, I do not state that everything every Christian has ever done is bad. I do not even speak exclusively of Christians, but none of you seem to be hearing that [05:02] <[Tony]> shroud: There is a problem with that assumption; the writings were comptemporary accounts and the people who read them had witnessed the very events which were written about. [05:02] ? [05:02] let me pull out the dictionary [05:02] gennie those are examples of GOOD. I want a defintion of it [05:02] ok one sec [05:03] shroud define good. [05:03] well [05:03] whichdefinitiondoyou want [05:03] gennie well what? [05:03] Tony - Investigate what their motives might have been. I see nothing to support so-called miracles in the bible except the bible itself. Acolyte will tell you that that's a circular argument [05:03] Good is a basic word, it can only be defined through examles or other mor complicated words [05:03] gennie define it [05:03] <[Tony]> shroud: don't get defensive, I came to this conversation late and all I saw was Christianity was bad for people; something I find hard to comprehend. [05:04] theres like 40 of em [05:04] gennie the on you think is true [05:04] well theyre all true.. b ut im not gonna type em all out [05:04] Tony: Your at the very door of becoming a Christian if you believe this. [05:04] absolutely not gonna do it [05:04] shroud, what possible motive for lying would the Apostles have when theyknew a hoax would entail certian death? [05:04] tell ya what.. you go get your dictionary, and you tell me [05:04] Tony - look at its history. Count the millions of people who were denied education throughout history. Denied a decent life. Suffered tortures and to this day endless wars. [05:05] gennie hey, you seem to know what it is like to be good without god. the burden of proof is on you. [05:05] nod ac.. but its not a burden. :) [05:05] shroud, yeah so? why is that wrong? [05:05] Shroud: look at the Christians who have suffered the same .. what is the point? [05:05] gennie then define it [05:05] Good: Beneficial, advantageous, usefull [05:05] <[Tony]> BullFrog: I should hope so; I have not swerved from my official commitment to our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ. [05:05] Acolyte - who says it was "the Apostles"? I say it was the priests who need to reassert their power over an unruly mob - because it was impossible to live under the endless rules of the old tes tament [05:05] shroud, what ethical standard are you appealing to? [05:05] shroud ok but the Aposltes wrote the NT. try again [05:06] <[Tony]> Shroud: Denied education by Christians? Where? [05:06] Many nonbelievers hate Christians ... I'mnot surprised [05:06] ac hey..i think people should believe in whatever they want.. if ya wanna believe the universe was created by a pile of mashed potatos.. then (shrug) what do i care.. just sayin that people shouldnt force their religion on anyone a t all [05:06] ac get a dictionary [05:06] look it up [05:06] Gennie why not? [05:06] gennie I am not talking to a dictinary I am talking to YOU. [05:07] ac cuz forcing something on someone is violating their space. [05:07] Gennie: ethical standards are based on the existence of God :) [05:07] gennie ok, so what? why is that wrong? [05:07] mingy (yukon@chk0120.tvs.net) joined #Apologetics. [05:07] Action: mingy I'm sorry [05:07] Acolyte - I am appealing to the ethical standard of humanity. That which we live by in a civilized way. Anarchy is self-destructing. Hence, laws. Logic dictates they are. Evidence of daily experience. Stop wasting my time, Acolyte and let me look up those references, please [05:07] because violating their space isnt cool.. i am offended by people violating my space [05:07] Gennie: the truth is forced on you just like gravity is .... [05:07] Gennie: it is inescapable ..... [05:07] mingy (yukon@chk0120.tvs.net) left #Apologetics. [05:08] Christ died on the cross and is risen again. [05:08] yeah yeah yeah [05:08] surrrre he has [05:08] BuBull: Ethics are not based on the existance of God, they are based on whatever you chose to base them on [05:08] shroud 1. is/ought fallacy and consensus gentium, just because things are this way does not mean they ought to be. secondly, just because everyone agrees on ethicsm, which they don't does not make them right.3. Fallacy, cannot de rive logic frm experience [05:09] because u are already using logic to think about it. Circular argument [05:09] Shroud even David Hume showed that and he was a Skeptic [05:09] i just think its so silly.. this whole argument.. [05:09] to have people think THEIR religion is SO MUCH BETTER than anyone elses.. its truly ridiculous [05:10] Thank you Gennie [05:10] shroud I do not say that thge past will be repeated in the future but you cannot say that the future will be like the past based on past experience. ALL Science agrees on that point. [05:10] youre welcome shroud.. [05:10] DaJester: There is right an wrong .... as absolutes ..... [05:10] gennie youhave no basis, but yet you think its silly, yeah that makes sense. [05:10] ok.. i got a real christian question.. [05:10] Bull: Maybe your personal ethical standard are based on what you believe God says, but right and wrong is certainly not absolute [05:10] gennie why is it wrong to violate someone's space? [05:11] Acolyte: some references: Jesus - Golden Rule -stated previously by Confucious and Hillel (Sabbath 31.1 [05:11] acolyte: its just wrong.. thats my belief. obvioulsy not yours [05:11] Alcolyte: Would you want your space to be violated? [05:11] dajester how do you know they are not absolute? [05:11] dajest absolutely not [05:11] DaJester: You have just stated your personal opnion .. by your last statement it can be no more valid them mine ... so why try to refute it ...after all .. it is my position ... not yours. [05:11] Moreta (moreta@prostar.com) joined #apologetics. [05:11] Shroud if they all said the Sky was pink, would it make it so? Consensus gentium and bandwagon fallacy try again [05:11] <[Tony]> "For this reason God raised him to the highest place above and gave him the name that is greather than any other name. And so, in honor of the name of Jesus all beings in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will fall on their knees, and all will openly proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, in the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11 (TEV) [05:11] bleuIris (Michael_B@line060.nwm.mindlink.net) joined #apologetics. [05:12] Alcolyte: Look it up, does it tell you what is right and wrong abso lutely every little possible thing? [05:12] if christians are so christian.. why is it they chastise women for having abortions? [05:12] dajester I don't but he said ti was wrong, I want to know why [05:12] dajester, if it didn't woul dit meake ethics any less absolute? no. [05:12] genne abortin is murder, realy simple [05:12] Shroud if they all said the Sky was pink, would it make it so? Consensus gentium and bandwagon fallacy try again [05:12] Alcolyte: Yes, actually it does [05:13] The sky would be pink if the sky was pink. Saying it or not saying it is irrelevant. Just becuz a majority believes something doesn't make it the truth. This, of course, I amply to theism [05:13] ac but isnt it said by jesus to turn the other cheek? [05:13] because its a patriarchial religion Gennie and they need to keep women under control or we might take over. [05:13] and be a good christian and let people do as they need be? ie none o your business? [05:13] shroud ok, so WHY appeal to the golden rule? [05:13] nod moreta [05:13] Alcolyte: do you think there is an absolute right and wrong for evrything? [05:13] gennie, yes, jesus also said to uphold the law as well. [05:13] uphold whos law? [05:13] dajester yes [05:14] ac he said to uphold the law of the land [05:14] moreta God's Law [05:14] which god [05:14] Gennie: that too [05:14] gennie he did? where? [05:14] morta the CHristian God [05:14] not of the government.. especially a government who is supposed to be seperated from church and state [05:14] who's god [05:14] <[Tony]> moreta: Maybe, just maybe, abortions are NOT good for women (mankind in general) and definitely harmful to the livelihood of the unborn child. [05:14] gennie Jesus [05:14] whoops [05:14] wrong chap [05:14] but I don't follow the christian god so I spose that means his laws aren't worth didly to me.. guess abortion is cool then. [05:14] I already stated why. If not, anarchy. Life is precious, we like to live. If we lived in a world where killing was blithely allowed, we ourselves would fall victim to it. since we are beings of survival, this is anathema to us . So we create laws to stop it. These laws may or may not work, so we create strong angry beings freom beyond who will punish us if we do not onbey. [05:15] Alcolyte: So I ask you again, how do you know what that absolute right and wrong is in every situation? [05:15] @@ math 43 [05:15] moreta I guess the US laws don't mean anything to me, guess I Can blow your brains out? [05:15] oh and how aren't they good for women mankind in general? [05:15] love your ENEMY [05:15] duh [05:15] shroud perhaps anarchy is what nature wants? [05:15] <[Tony]> moreta: how many murderers do you know who are truly happy people? [05:15] the us laws weren't based on the bible AC. [05:15] gennie sure I love them but they kill my wife I am not just gona sit back and do nothing [05:15] @@ math 44 [05:15] Shroud: We create nothing. [05:15] moreta never said they were [05:15] ac turn your cheed [05:16] err cheek [05:16] Alcolyte: Why do you speak of nature wanting things? Nature is not an entity [05:16] that is jesus' law [05:16] I am not talking about murder. [05:16] gennie that is for personal relations. [05:16] Perhaps you are absolutely wrong. An animal, a being of nature, flees or fights when in mortal danger. [05:16] no.. it is law [05:16] dajster oh so nature does not exist? [05:16] i read the bible.. and the bible told me so [05:16] gennie where? [05:16] gennie where? [05:16] math 44 [05:16] <[Tony]> moreta: Is it or is it not a human being growing in the woman's womb? [05:16] math 44 [05:16] love your ENEMY [05:17] gennie yeah so? I love them by doinw what is right [05:17] I don't consider it so untill its about 4 months along.. [05:17] gennie not by doing what is wrong [05:17] Acolyte, nature is not a conscious being. It is simply the reality. No, I can't prove it. [05:17] moreta, why 4 months? [05:17] no.. you dont.. you want to kill someone who doesnt believe in what you believe [05:17] that is wrong [05:17] wrong wrong wrong [05:17] shroud are u partof nature? yes or no? [05:17] usually thats about the time that you feel the flutter. [05:17] Action: bleuIris raises an eyebrow [05:17] Yes. [05:17] gennie why is that wrong? [05:17] shroud then you are not concious, just chemcials [05:18] Nature: All things that exist that are not made by man [05:18] shroud simple and to the point [05:18] <[Tony]> moreta: If I went around busting eggs in the nests of bald eagles, have I killed baby eagles or just busted some eggs (whites/yoke/shell0? [05:18] because jesus says to love your enemy and turn your cheek.. to accept someone for their mistakes, not chastise them [05:18] dajester all things that are matter, motion, time and space and have location [05:18] then why are you wasting keyboard strokes on me? [05:18] shroud then leave [05:18] tony: you busted some eggs of an endangered species. [05:18] <[Tony]> moreta: Wonder how the enviromentalist would view my actions? the govt? [05:18] why is it wrong to kill someone who doesnt believe in what you do ???? /did I hear someone say that? [05:19] Action: Gennie highfives shroud. [05:19] <[Tony]> gennie: but did I kill a baby eagle? [05:19] not the same thing, if humans were formed in eggs you could put them all into a fake incubator. [05:19] blueiris I said it [05:19] Acolyte. You are still rude. Why did you invite me in here? To convince me? To harangue me? What are your motives? [05:19] tony no you broke potential of an eagle [05:19] Action: Shroud hi5 back t' Gennie [05:19] shroud to see if you can talk to ppl like they are human beings, but I guess not [05:19] You admit to that Acolyte? [05:19] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #apologetics. [05:19] blueiris yeah, why is it wrong? [05:19] but an eagle is an endangered species. [05:19] Acolyte: But you seem to be implying that nature wants this and nature wants that. Nature wants nothing, nature simply exists. [05:19] hitler should have been aborted, say no? [05:19] Excuse me? I think if you'll askj around, YOU will be the one accused of such nonsense [05:19] <[Tony]> moreta: stay on topic; we are talking about the birth process; how does it matter if the egg develops inside the womb or outside? [05:19] gennie so? survival of the fittest [05:20] you would kill someone who thought differently thatn you Acolyte? [05:20] thats the other point humans are far from an endangered species. [05:20] nod bleu ac would.. [05:20] dajstes exactly so if you are only natureal then you only exist, thinking is just a chemcial reaction [05:20] how can you justify that? [05:20] nod moreta [05:20] shroud I think not [05:20] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #apologetics. [05:20] If anything, nature simly seems to want to survive [05:20] bleu its not very christian, is it. [05:20] <[Tony]> gennie: yeah, how many Lincolns and Hillary's have been killed off? [05:20] dajester so? [05:20] tony: not enough [05:20] of the hillaries that is [05:20] Acolyte: I have no problem with that [05:21] <[Tony]> moreta: are humans not valuable as an eagle? [05:21] blueiris I am not advocating it, I am asking how they justify their ethical claims in light of that question [05:21] Acolyte: Do you have a problem with only being a buch of chemicals? [05:21] tony: eagles are endangered BECAUSE OF HUMANS [05:21] duh [05:21] dajester yeah, it makes ethics and Epistemology impossible [05:21] I cant believe anyone who claims to believe in a god with absoloute power would claim to have the power to take another life that you believe he created [05:22] gennie so? Mamalls were endangered species because of Dinosaurs, SO? part of anture to make certian life forms extinct [05:22] it seems to undermine your own faith [05:22] ac christian coalition endorses killing by killing doctors with families for doing their jobs. [05:22] <[Tony]> gennie: well, how about a Martin Luther King or Eleanor Roosevelt or Mother Teresa's? [05:22] they are 1 not an endangered species and 2 they aren't hatched from eggs, and 3 they are not carried and supported by the mothers body during development. [05:22] gennie they do? so? why is that wrong? [05:22] tony: how bout stalin and nepolian [05:22] Action: BullFrog` thinks environmentatlists are trying to impede "evolution". [05:22] moreta is extinction natural? [05:22] is Acolyte going to answer me? [05:22] Action: Acolyte concurs with Bullfrog [05:23] bleuiris what did you ask? [05:23] Acolyte: No, it doesn't. Ithink you need to get your dictionary. ethics are not supreme either. ethics are only here because we made them up. Without man, there are no ethics. [05:23] becasue you cant say killing is ok here and not ok there.. its an oxymoron [05:23] if its a natural type extinction not when its a gee lets kill all the animals cause they are infringing on a area of land that we want. [05:23] not to mention HYPOCRYTICAL [05:23] <[Tony]> gennie: sounds like a failure was made AFTER the child got out of the womb. But you make a good point, what exactly are we saying about human life when a child is MOST endangered when s/he is in his/her mother's womb? [05:23] Extinction is natural [05:23] you know what acolyte? im really glad i dont believe in jesus if it makes me an ass like you. [05:23] sometimes [05:24] dajester hence we made them up because nature caused us to. hence there is no right or wrong, just chemcial reactions, HENCE Ethical Nihilism. (BTW just because the Dictionary says it does not make it ture. AD vericundium fallacy [05:24] Yep ..... Abort the baby ... Save the Whale ........ consistent ethical position .... hmmmmm [05:24] Action: DaJester highfives Gennie [05:24] <[Tony]> gennie: such becoming talk ... [05:24] millitant christian.. [05:24] if it comes about by natural means, humans killing animals to gain ground is not natural extinction. [05:24] I asked you believe in god, how you can justify killing something he created [05:24] thanks dajester [05:24] Gennie!deadhead95@prostar.com kicked by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: watch the language [05:24] Action: Shroud hi5's gennie [05:24] Gennie: millitant Christians are those that are here on earth still :) [05:24] <[Tony]> moreta: two wrongs make a right? [05:24] and stating that this is undermining your own faith [05:25] by challenging his choices [05:25] mareta anything humans do is natural since we are part of nature [05:25] so you are saying that endangering a womans life is ok? [05:25] Gennie (deadhead95@prostar.com) joined #apologetics. [05:25] bleuiris I think you misunderstand [05:25] dang.. [05:25] <[Tony]> blue: God placed animals and plants here as food; animals eat animals; is that immoral? [05:25] i wrote a three line paragraph [05:25] laugh [05:25] moreta how about killing a human being who is defenseless? [05:25] Acolyte: Actually, if the dictionary says it it does happen to be true being that evrything in here is based on this thing called LANGUAGE and the dictionary happens to tel us what that languege means untill it comes to basic co ncepts [05:25] if we were a part of nature we would live in harmony with it not rape, burn and pillage it. [05:25] no I think you are wrong and you cant defend yourself [05:26] dajester nope appeal to authority [05:26] <[Tony]> moreta: have you ever seen a lion kill it's prey? [05:26] Moreta: few woman that have proper prenatal care are at risk for their life .... most life threatening situations occur because of a lack of prenatal care .... [05:26] dajester I can use language to say somethng that is FALSE too. [05:26] yeah I have. I have watched lots of animals kill lots of other animals [05:26] tony ever seena mother cat eats its own young? [05:26] and those who can't afford prenatal care? [05:27] moreta what makes us ontologically different from animals? [05:27] because you know I am right and are hiding the violence in your nature behind a thin curtian of lies that you cant defend [05:27] Acolyte: Yes you can, what is your point? [05:27] my point was.. that being a christian is more of an action.. loving your neighbor, turning your cheek only to be slapped some more, sadistic as it may be, it is the way of the christian.. and thats all good and fine, but to say yo ure a christian and kill [05:27] <[Tony]> blue: what lies? [05:27] Moreta: that is like having a child when there is a famine [05:27] <[Tony]> gennie: kill who? what? [05:27] someone , a doctor who performs abortions, for instance, looks really bad on all christianss. [05:27] tony had to finish on another line [05:27] blueiris don't accuse if you don't even know what I am saying [05:28] genetic make up ac [05:28] he stated that he believed that he has the right to kill someone who doesnt agree with him [05:28] dajester, the point is, just because a dictionary says X does not make X true just because a dictioanry says so, Webster was wrong a=on many things, he was not infallaible [05:28] Gennie: the choice of having sex outside of marriage is the priciple reason for abortion ..... [05:28] ac are you a politician? [05:28] the lies lie in what he comes up with to prove this [05:28] ok acolyte what ARE you trying to say? [05:28] bull: bull [05:28] blueiris I did NOT sya that. I merely asked how Gennie and shroud justified their claims ethically and why would killing someone be wrong. I ASKED, I never stated [05:28] Gennie: statistical data [05:28] bull: besides, even if it was, does it matter? you should be turning your cheek [05:29] Acolyte: OK, given, so then do you disagree with these deffinitions? [05:29] bull you should be loving those u nfortunates [05:29] Acolyte - and I answered you a dozen times. [05:29] moreta easy, naturalism does not make Ethics and Knowledge possible. how can you argue for rights and values if values don't exist? [05:29] <[Tony]> gennie: what do we have; one doctor killed by a demented fanatic; 20 millions babies murdered in their mothers' wombs. Who's doing the REAL killing around here since Roe v. Wade? How does it grab you Roe has changed her tune? [05:29] dajester which ones? [05:29] oh really bullfrog and what aobut women who are pregnant cause of rape, or incest? [05:29] bull for they are evil.. you should love them with all your heart.. [05:29] but you do think that someone who doesnt agree with your philosiphies shouldnt have the same rights as you correct Acolyte? [05:29] shroud and i pointe out your fallacies. Consensus gentium, is/ought fallacy, and others [05:29] values are a human thing. [05:29] Gennie: not saying I don't .. I'm talking about blaming suffereing on others ... or making choses based on an absence of responsibility. [05:30] blueiris no I don't [05:30] tony so what. its not my problem. its that mother's problem if she has a problem. [05:30] moreta hence they are bio-chemical reactions [05:30] moreta they are neither true nor false, just chemcials [05:30] <[Tony]> gennie: have you ever had an abortion? [05:30] lots of animals eat their young. [05:30] nope [05:30] tony no [05:30] tony.. i wouldnt have one. [05:30] tony: but if someone wanted to have one.. they should be able to. [05:31] Acolyte: the deffinitoing in the dictionary World Book dictionary 89 edition [05:31] moreta under naturalism killing is perfectly natural, as is rape or anything else nature disposes us to do. Ethical Nihilism [05:31] dajester for what term? [05:31] then who were you refering to deserving to die earlier? [05:31] because my belief may not be their belief and so long as we live in a free religious country i will support women who want to have abortions. [05:31] <[Tony]> gennie: maybe we should all be able to kill JUST one person? Why not? [05:31] Acolyte: true ... in fact it should be considered natural .... [05:31] it is in our constitution. [05:31] hmm interesting that rape is normal, never known a animal to rape another. [05:31] <[Tony]> gennie: really, where? [05:31] blueiris hypothetical situation, Gennie said it i wrong to do X. I asked why. he has no reason for why itis wrong. I am still waiting for a cogent reason [05:32] moreta - animals rape each other all the time [05:32] tony: some people dont believe it t o be killing.. that isnt your or my problem [05:32] bullfrog if it is produced by chemicals it IS natural [05:32] really shroud when? I have yet to see it. [05:32] Shroud: I've seen cats do it :) [05:32] <[Tony]> Thou shall not murder. [05:32] unless you are exclusively refering to the human animal [05:32] no tony thats the bible [05:32] moreta Chimpanizes rape [05:32] thats not the constitution.. [05:32] and rats .... [05:32] <[Tony]> Gennie: That's from the God who made you! [05:32] yep you are correct I forgot about them? [05:32] seems I remember you saying you thought so Acolyte... that you had the right to kill [05:32] gennie so? the Constitutions is a prodcut of chemcial sin someones head [05:32] Bullfrog Mice [05:32] really .... rats [05:32] its called FREEDOM OF RELIGION [05:32] never seen a rat do it. [05:33] Ethics: principals of conduct [05:33] rape is the carnal taking of one being by another. animals, many of them, rely on that. Apes, cats, so on. [05:33] blueiris no, I did not say that, else it is hypotheical [05:33] Never have notices BullFrogs behaving that way though. [05:33] tony maybe not.. i have the right to believe that the goddess pele of hawaii's volcanos created me [05:33] hmm [05:33] shroud rape is natural on your worldview, thats the point [05:33] tony it is your belief that the god you believe in made me [05:33] rape in any form has absolutely nothing to do with carnal knowledge it is a way or belittling and controling another being. [05:34] morta ok, nature causes you to do that. perfectly natural [05:34] Moreta: to some feminists all intercourse is rape [05:34] not I. [05:34] <[Tony]> Gennie: I'm all for religious freedom; why not make it legal to kill people if they accidentially get out of the womb alive? [05:34] for humans it is. animals, like gorillas, take their mates at will, regardless of the willingness of the female. [05:34] morta or nature causes someone else to do that, either way, caused by natural chemcials in the brain and body [05:34] tony: because there are laws against taht sort of thing. [05:34] morta still natural. [05:34] thats a crock bullfrog, since when have you sat down and seriously had a conversation with a feminist. [05:34] tony: do you know ANYTHING about the process of abortion? [05:35] <[Tony]> gennie: there were once laws against abortion UNTIL the Roe v Wade. [05:35] shroud females dislike it in humans, so> still natural [05:35] Acolyte - I consider humans to be above certain natural impulses for the benefit of our survival of our species. [05:35] tony; you cant just go get one if your over a trimester.. for one.. well you can but its not reccomended [05:35] Moreta: Rush Limbah said it .. it must be right ;) [05:35] Tony - there were also NO laws against it for many centuries before there were. [05:35] there have only been laws against abortion in the last 100 years. [05:35] shroud how can they BE ABOVE natural impulses if allthey ARE IS NATURAL IMPULESES OF CHEMICALS? They can't be what they are not in essence [05:35] limbarf is a dweeb [05:36] tony: well thank god they found that unconstitutional because not all religions believe life begins at conception. [05:36] <[Tony]> gennie: somewhat; abortion is natural; ripping a baby out of it's mother's womb is NOT. [05:36] shroud do humans have soemthing thatis not material? [05:36] YOU keep saying that's "all we are" because you believe I deny a higher consciousness based on my disbelief in the spritual realm. [05:36] shroud otherwise they are material beings deriven by impulses [05:36] Acolyte: ethical implies conformity to the principals of right conduct expressed in a formal system or code [05:36] so if its a spontanious abortion its ok tony? [05:36] Gennie: the cells that fuse are alive before conception :) [05:36] tony: removing an unwanted baby is a mothers choice.. not yours. [05:36] Juba (b.r@pc7.dokka.vgs.no) joined #Apologetics. [05:36] shroud consciousness is bio-chemcial activity. stll material [05:36] Acolyte: do you agree with that deffinition? [05:36] Hello I am jesus [05:36] dajester thatis one definition [05:37] <[Tony]> gennie: And not all countries believe it is immoral to kill baby girls, so what? [05:37] bull: that is your belief.. as it is mine.. but its not everyones. [05:37] Gennie: why would responsible people have an unwanted baby? [05:37] dajester if I did, what would it matter? [05:37] tony so what is your point. [05:37] why does birthcontrol fail bullfrog? [05:37] Of course they do. Hopes, dreams, joy, emotions in genral. I simply ascribe them to a natural evolution. You ascribe them to a god. So what? I want theism to vanish not because of a bitterness or hatred, but becasue I see the pain it has caused. [05:37] Gennie: why would a female get pregnant that didn't want a child [05:37] bull it happens. [05:37] dajester I want to know how any appeal to codes or ethics in naturalism is meaningful? [05:37] bull dont go get started on that [05:37] bull it takes a man [05:37] Moreta: they can get their tubes ties [05:37] bull did you take sex ed in high school? [05:37] Acolyte: Then for ethics you need a code of conduct, therefore it is not set! [05:37] ya know bullfrog if birthcontrol fails there isn't much choice in the manner [05:37] Hello go to#mad [05:38] shroud, then your consciousness is detertmined by nature. You want what you want because nature caused youto think it. and for no other reason. [05:38] <[Tony]> gennie: Is there NOT a higher law? How about them UNALIENABLE RIGHTS to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? [05:38] Bull - are you kidding? [05:38] bull that is the most incredible thing.. get their tubes tied????? [05:38] bull that is communist [05:38] why doesn't the man have his tied its a much simpler operation [05:38] fascist [05:38] unbelieveable [05:38] Either way :) [05:38] dajester depends. But any code you choose in naturalism is determined by nature, hence ethical nihilism [05:38] i am truly shocked [05:38] Acolyte - and what if the natural course of events is to evolve a thinking being into a better thinking being - all the time staying within the natural realm? [05:38] Action: Gennie faints out of disbelief [05:38] moreta causes protate cancer actaully [05:38] shroud define better? [05:39] shroudn you mean utility? [05:39] ac and getting tubes tied dont cause ovarian cancer [05:39] please [05:39] gennie does it? [05:39] oh so you would rather pay 7-10000 for a tubal on a female right? [05:39] i believe it does. [05:39] gennie I practive neither, so its not a problem for me either way [05:39] regardless thatis a ridiculous statement. [05:39] nod gennie [05:39] Acolyte: Nature has no code, nature is simply nature. The only thing in nature is to survive. We make up our own codes in order to survive better [05:39] Gennie: It is shocking that people engage in an activity that is sort of like Russian Roulette ... if the birth control methods fail ... murder the child. :( [05:39] Acolyte - slavery ok yesterday (and biblically supported, I might add) but seen as horrifying today. That is better [05:39] gennie I thnk abortion and sterilization is wrong, so no biggie [05:39] why should a woman have her tubes tied because she accidentally got pregnant [05:40] <[Tony]> Gennie: About them rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? [05:40] shroud are you appealing to utility? [05:40] bull it is amazing to me that christians promote killing doctors [05:40] dajester we make up what nature causes us to make up [05:40] Gennie: I don't know any. [05:40] so are you then advocating that if a married couple don't want children they should never have sex bullfrog? [05:40] Gennie: NOT ONE! [05:40] tony about the freedom to practice any religion you please. [05:40] <[Tony]> gennie: which Christians advocate such? [05:40] Acolyte - please define - remember, you've forgotten more than I ever read. What do you mean by utuility? [05:40] shroud does a car that is ineffecient called "evil"? [05:40] Gennie: that is BS [05:40] christian coalition [05:40] no it isnt [05:40] hello?? [05:40] shroud utility=works, efficient [05:40] mcfly?? [05:41] have you watched the news over THE PAST 8 YEARS???? [05:41] Yes ...... [05:41] SHEESH [05:41] comeone bullfrog answer the question [05:41] <[Tony]> gennie: that's not one of them UNALIENABLE RIGHTS I was referring to but could be inferred under "pursuit of happiness and under liberty". [05:41] it happens ALL THE TIME [05:41] morat use a condem, [05:41] the christian coalition is evil.. and it puts a bad name on christians everywhere [05:41] A person who believes in murder, slavery, violence is not as evolved as a person who recognizes these things as evil. [05:41] birthcontrol fails acolyte. [05:41] moreta, abstain, works for me [05:41] ac condoms break [05:41] Gennie: how many times has an abortion doctor been killed [05:41] gennie define evil [05:41] ac so thats your problem [05:42] Gennie: HOW MANY TIMES? [05:42] ac get a dictionary.. im not playing this game with you [05:42] moreta sometiems, so we killthem because we want gratiutus pelasure? [05:42] Acolyte - notice I didn't say "commits" those acts, but *beleives* in them [05:42] gennie what is evil? [05:42] bull a lot actually.. i use condoms they break [05:42] <[Tony]> Gennie: Were you a PLANNED birth? [05:42] so they are suppose to not have sex ever if they don't want a child. [05:42] shroud so your beliefs are determined by nature, they have no truth value, you cannot verify them at all [05:42] tony: no.. my mom was on the pill. [05:42] Moreta: correct :) [05:42] shroud you only have beleifs, not knowlegde [05:42] moreta works for many ppl at my church [05:42] and tony.. if she had aborted me, then fine, she aborts me.. not my problem [05:42] <[Tony]> gennie: Aren't you glad she didn't have a choice to abort you? [05:43] cool then I guess that no one should be married unless they plan on having a kid. [05:43] Acolyte - and you can only verify yours by postulating a god. So what. [05:43] she did have a choice [05:43] Acolyte: OK, I supose we do make up what we feel we need to in order to survive and get what we want. So our ethics are what suits us. They are tailored to the purpose. But that is what I have been trying to say, is that there i s no set right and wrong, only what we define as right and wrong [05:43] gennie it is whenthey suck your brains out with a vaccuum tube [05:43] Who are w [05:43] Kelsa (cimmerian@aladdin.bc.ca) joined #Apologetics. [05:43] hello [05:43] grin [05:43] Shalifi (shalifi@206.152.99.48) joined #apologetics. [05:43] hi kelsa [05:43] dajester thenthere is no right and wrong at all. hence ethical nihilism again [05:43] hi shalifi [05:43] Hiya Moreta! [05:43] hi kelsa [05:43] Hello Gennie [05:43] hi sweetie [05:43] hi Shalifi [05:43] hey Gennie [05:43] Hello Bleu. [05:43] <[Tony]> gennie: kinda terrorizing that your own mother could have snuffed out your life and it would have been JUST HONKY DONKEY. [05:44] hello Moreta [05:44] hey Bleu> [05:44] hi Kelsa [05:44] Acolyte: What do you mean by ethical nihlism? [05:44] Hi bleuiris [05:44] Yep ..... it is alright to suck the brains out in the birth cannal .... but not put em in the blender once it is a few more inches more advanced. [05:44] my mom had a choice, and if she chose to abort me then i guess i wouldnt be here.. i woulldnt know the difference. [05:44] shroud exactly, God makes knowldge possible, God is a necessay preconditon for Epistemology (Knowldge) and Ethics, hence your worldview makes knowledge imnpossible and ethics as well. So Theism is true [05:44] nod tony [05:44] ''nihilism [05:44] i8 wouldnt know the difference [05:44] Ok I am glad that we have determined that if you aren't going to reproduce childrn then one should not get married. [05:44] how could i know the difference if i didnt exist? [05:44] hold on dajester [05:44] <[Tony]> Gennie: But, she'd have had to LIVE with the knowledge of what she had done. [05:44] Tony: Yeah, and you mom could decided she had a head ache the night you were concieved, what is your point? [05:45] this is assuming God makes Knowledge Acolyte [05:45] blueiris which I just demonstrated [05:45] Moreta: Either that or acept the consequences [05:45] now.. what about women who are raped or women who are pregnant cause of incest [05:45] tony and it was her choice not to.. as it is my choice if i got pregnant not to abort.. ALL I AM SAYING IS IT ISNT MY PLACE TO JUDGE ANOTHER WOMAN FOR WHAT SHE DOES [05:45] !faq nihilism [05:45] oho, sorry Acolate to have missed that [05:45] can you not understand that? [05:45] it is NOT my place [05:45] <[Tony]> dajester: Just think about it; the MOST dangerous place for a child is in his/her mother's womb ... that is scary but true! [05:45] Fine. Call me when theists stop whacking each other over which god is the true one. And start by you yourself stopping this claim that only Jesus is right. be the first one to actually DO something positive for your belief syst em. [05:45] Action: BullFrog` noters that sex and pregnancy seem to go together [05:46] moreta women who get raped and incest make up less than 2% of all abortins, I cal live very happily with that [05:46] really well then I must know a good majority of them.. [05:46] are you a woman Acolyte? [05:46] what she does is her decision... not mine, not the christians, not the governments.. NO ONES. but hers. [05:46] Gennie so what if a women kills her baby at birth? [05:46] Aren't you most magnanimous, Acolyte! YOU can live with their suffering and horror. [05:46] blueiris no, does a penis make my argument illogical in some way? [05:46] ok, I looked it up [05:46] so what.. [05:46] Gennie: correct moral behavior has always been a choice [05:46] <[Tony]> gennie: why should anyone be put on trial for murdering anyone? [05:46] then it a seperate life Acolyte [05:46] BULL: THAT IS COMMUNIST [05:47] Shroud are you not illogical. blah [05:47] and can exist on its own [05:47] so what do you do about those who are pregnant due to rape and or incest? [05:47] good question Moreta:) [05:47] Acolyte: Needs lessons in grammar and syntax [05:47] bleuiris can it? can you exist without a grocery store? hardly [05:47] and are you a woman Acolyte? [05:47] tony: because it has been born.. that is where the decision is .. after birth you gain rights [05:47] Action: BullFrog` looks around for McCarthy [05:47] <[Tony]> gennie: communist love and believe in abortions. [05:47] shroud I am dyslexic. got a problemw ith that [05:47] once a child is born acolyte its a separate individule and its irrelevant. [05:47] bleuiris I am a male. [05:47] actually I can exist, just not as easily [05:47] <[Tony]> gennie: It's the communist thing to do. [05:47] tony: communists also love and believe in ONE RELIGION [05:47] no. I just don't understand what you are saying. [05:48] moreta what changes from when it is inthe womb and when it is not? It is stillthe same genetically and ontologically [05:48] <[Tony]> gennie: yes, they do, it's call HUMANISM. [05:48] I know the earth well enough to survive off it [05:48] Acolyte: I looked it up, I see what you are saying but i don't understand where the problem lies [05:48] moreta the only diff is location, not nature [05:48] and are you a woman Acolyte? [05:48] communists believe that they have the right to tell everyone else what the communist believes is the only way.. everything else is wrong and immoral [05:48] so you will make a woman go through the psychological trauma of carrying a child of incest or rape? [05:49] bleu acolyte is a male [05:49] no Acolyte, it is not. a baby at birth is fully developed. Aborting at the early stages, it is not. [05:49] Gennie: by that definition ... allsocieties are communistic :) [05:49] Acolyte - I want to say that I did not mean to offend you regarding your statement - if I did, I apologize. [05:49] dajester simple, in nature natural law determines how particles move. Now, what reason is ther ein a particle? None. Your ideas are chemcials, made up of particles, hence determined. Hence no reason [05:49] <[Tony]> gennie: yes, they are dictatorships. [05:49] Action: bleuIris thought so [05:49] shroud fine [05:49] no bull they arent.. we in america have the right to freedom of religion.. therefore not communist [05:49] kels ok, how about the ones done at 7-9 months? [05:49] so back to my point. [05:49] sigh [05:49] and since you are not a woman Acolyte... [05:49] kelsa that is still perfectly legal [05:49] <[Tony]> gennie: but we are a nation of laws; no man/woman is above the law. [05:49] Gennie: all societies have laws they impose on people ....... [05:50] <[Tony]> gennie: most laws are based upon a moral good. [05:50] tony: duh.. but they have rights to believe in any religion they want and some religions dont believe that life begins till after birth. [05:50] and you seem to know so well what goes on in a womans body [05:50] I have my own views on abortion, and I do not agree with it at 7-9 months. but in the early stages, you bet. [05:50] Gennie: just because you disagree with the laws imposed doesn't make it communistic [05:50] Blueiris oh IC only women are allowed to kill their children. Sobecause I have a penis, that makes my arguments illogical. NOT [05:50] Action: Shroud wishes to bid you all good night. [05:50] ARE YOU NOT LISTENING? [05:50] bull: i know this. [05:50] kels ok, but the law is any reason for all 9 months in the US [05:50] you arent listening to what i am saying [05:50] gennie cut the caps [05:50] I would have to agree with Kelsa on that one. The baby is far to much along in pregnantsy to be aborted than.. [05:51] Shroud (yabba-dab@max2-so-ca-49.earthlink.net) left #apologetics. [05:51] ac dont be rude, please. [05:51] all 9 months what acolyte? [05:51] Acolyte: First, youa re wrong on the natural law thing. Natural laws shouldn't really be called natural laws. It's not like the particles do what they do because the don't want to get busted by the law. The particles just do wha tever and we make up these "laws" to describe what they do [05:51] -I just spilled milk all over my keyboars... sec. [05:51] <[Tony]> gennie: that is for society to judge; we have representatives who make the laws; it's not our choice to decide which we will obey and which we won't. Like Baretta said, "Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time." [05:51] Action: bleuIris thinks that you have no right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do since she has the responsibility of caring for the child [05:51] nods Kelsa. [05:51] 46666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666-*[D153-6[H//////////////////////////////////////// [05:51] moreta inthe US the Supreme COurt has made it perfectly legal to get an abortin fo0r any reason the woman so chooses for all 9 months of pregnancy\ [05:51] Kelsa!cimmerian@aladdin.bc.ca kicked by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: flooding [05:52] tony: it is for god to judge , is it not> [05:52] Action: BullFrog` has no prob with this ..... [05:52] in washington state elective abortions are not permitted after he 1st trimester [05:52] dajester repeat please I missed it [05:52] Acolyte:And there is reason in everything, everything happens as a rusult of somthing else [05:52] Acolyte: First, youa re wrong on the natural law thing. Natural laws shouldn't really be called natural laws. It's not like the particles do what they do because the don't want to get busted by the law. The particles just do wha tever and we make up these "laws" to describe what they do [05:52] moreta ok, but that is a STATE law, not federal [05:52] Action: bleuIris thinks that if it wasnt legal it would happen anyway [05:52] ac then vote on it to be a federal law. [05:52] <[Tony]> gennie: Indeed, we all will give account for what we say and do. But, God has placed govts over man to ensure justice. [05:52] so its not possible in this state and by your own statement, it should be. [05:52] dajester natural laws are descritions of how particles move with regualrity [05:53] Acolyte: exactly [05:53] blueiris if muder was illgeal it would happen anyway,s o what? [05:53] is it a ruling or a federal law acolyte? [05:53] Indeed it would, and it would be far more dangerous to the lady without the special equipment.. [05:53] dajester that is the point [05:53] no Tony, man has placed governments over man to ensure justice [05:53] natural law is both positive and negative [05:53] Kelsa (cimmerian@aladdin.bc.ca) joined #Apologetics. [05:53] dajester if youexclude metaphysics,then the only reason why things occurs is natrual principles [05:53] bleuIris: It may appear that way ..... :) [05:53] re Kelsa [05:53] sorry about that.. Ack.. what a mess.. [05:53] re kelsa [05:53] re shalifi [05:53] hugZ moreta [05:53] <[Tony]> blue: either way; justice is the aim; who will give justice to the unborn? [05:53] Action: Juba sends five men to burn W's house, kill his parents, rape his sister, blow up his car, shoot his dog and break his leg. [05:54] Action: Juba sends five men to burn W's house, kill his parents, rape his sister, blow up his car, shoot his dog and break his leg. [05:54] laugh juba [05:54] juba thats enough [05:54] Ha ha [05:54] laugh [05:54] whoops brb, dog is sick.. [05:54] the one who created the life??? [05:54] ha ha [05:54] mm bleu [05:54] hello Kelsa [05:54] Ha ha [05:54] hi kelsa [05:54] hiya gennie [05:54] Acolyte: Yeah, that's true, but so many little things are always happening that we can't yet describe so it all SEEMS like "magic" [05:54] Action: Juba sends five men to burn W's house, kill his parents, rape his sister, blow up his car, shoot his dog and break his leg. [05:55] Action: Juba slaps W around a bit with a large trout [05:55] why don't you quote everything there acolyte not just one or 2 [05:55] I am sorry [05:55] <[Tony]> blue: be assured he will avenge the unborn; eternal punishment is indeed in store for them. [05:55] dajester ok,so? if u exclude metaphysics, then it is only nature causesing the motion [05:55] lines. [05:55] laugh juba [05:55] Ha ha [05:55] Ha ha [05:55] Ha ha [05:55] Woe... stop.. I have something to say about that quote.. [05:55] eternal punishment by who? [05:55] magic is what man cannot explain with science... yet [05:55] Acolyte: but when it gets down to it, we are all just a buch of little particles [05:55] Juba!b.r@pc7.dokka.vgs.no kicked by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: Apolobot slaps Juba with a Big Bible [05:55] menz (mwgordon@ppp31.ihug.co.nz) joined #Apologetics. [05:55] look.. AGod A[BMRACHAED his 'christi[Ba[[[[[[[[Baa[B [05:55] a[Ba [05:55] BleuIris: Exactly!! [05:55] [Ba [05:55] [Ba [05:55] [B [05:55] <[Tony]> moreta: By the God who created us and everything we see. [05:55] [Ba [05:55] [B [05:55] [B[B [05:55] dajester that si the point [05:55] [B [05:55] [Bx[B [05:55] kelsa what are you doing? [05:56] x[B [05:56] [B[B [05:56] [B [05:56] [B [05:56] [B [05:56] Blue: much ephasis on the YET! [05:56] Kelsa!cimmerian@aladdin.bc.ca kicked by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu: 2nd warning Flooding [05:56] Good night all ...... [05:56] hello all [05:56] g'nite bull [05:56] hullo menz [05:56] later frog [05:56] so isnt this eternal damnation enough? do they have to be tormented in real life by people? and do you have the right to administer this judgement if you believe in an allpowerful god [05:56] nite Bull [05:56] BullFrog` (omnitek@fresno1-18.valleynet.com) left #apologetics. [05:56] AMEN BLEU [05:57] bleuiris perhaps, perhaps not, but I doubt that is the point [05:57] I didn't know everyone else was god.. how enlightening to know we are talking to god. [05:57] Acolyte: Yeah, that's true, but so many little things are always happening that we can't yet describe so it all SEEMS like "magic" [05:57] seems to me that you use it as an excuse to judge people and force violence [05:57] Acolyte: but when it gets down to it, we are all just a buch of little particles [05:57] <[Tony]> bleu: If you knew someone was doing something that would caused them to be damned for eternity, would you warn them? [05:57] dajester so> still natural [05:57] when it isnt even your problem if they burn in hell... [05:57] Hann (hann@206.100.182.34) joined #Apologetics. [05:57] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) joined #apologetics. [05:57] dajester chemicals=particles, no reason [05:57] hey zx [05:58] hi [05:58] since god is going to take care of them later anyway... [05:58] ah so you advocate killing after all its in the bible. [05:58] you know what the problem is with christianity? theyre just so nosy. [05:58] Acolyte: Yeah, no reason, so? [05:58] theyre all up in your business. [05:58] muffy (muffy@prostar.com) joined #apologetics. [05:58] hi muffy!!! [05:58] Hey MO!! [05:58] Hann (hann@206.100.182.34) left #Apologetics. [05:58] dajester hence you have no reason EITHER. capiche? [05:58] <[Tony]> bleu: did you read Ezekiel 3:18; their blood will be on our hands if we fail to warn them. [05:58] hello gennie [05:58] Muffers!! [05:58] Shalifi (shalifi@206.152.99.48) left #apologetics. [05:58] Mode change '+o zx ' by ApoloBot!bibleman@xlab1.fiu.edu [05:58] and what of tolerance? [05:59] if people would just mind their OWN business... we would be so much better o ff. [05:59] bleris whatabout it? I believe intolerance, but not indifference [05:59] blueiris I believe we shoudl only toerlate certain things, how abut you? [05:59] well, personally I dont need to be saved [05:59] <[Tony]> bleu: I give you John 3:18; that's tolerance enough. [05:59] menz (mwgordon@ppp31.ihug.co.nz) left #Apologetics. [05:59] so you are god now tony? [05:59] and I have my own life and decisions [05:59] so is it because the bible offers you everlasting life why you get so worked up over it? [05:59] again how enlightening. [06:00] moreta u wiccan? [06:00] nope [06:00] is it because youre afraid of death itself without knowing whats gonna happen> [06:00] <[Tony]> Moreta: NOPE but neither are any of us God; there is one God and it's not for the pot to question the potter. [06:00] i think the bible has been bribing you.. [06:00] thats what i think [06:00] so its also not your job to judge, it is gods alone. [06:01] amen moreta [06:01] and why do you have the right to make a decision that should be left to god? [06:01] he he Moreta [06:01] oho, well, that has nothing to do with this [06:01] but you are not god there for you are not permitted to judege [06:02] <[Tony]> Moreta: Does God need any man/woman's advice? Does the God who created this world require anything of us except some common appreciation for all he has done and does for us all each day? [06:02] and righteous in gods eye? [06:02] moreta says WHO? [06:02] moreta so you are speaking for God in telling us that eh? [06:02] Acolyte: Ok, I looked up reason, and yes evrything has a reason, because evrything hapens for a reason. When you are talking particles, they happen for very simple reasons, mostly, like gravity, colisions, various other forces. But when you get a lot of those particles together, thjen it gets more comlicated, untill it starts to SEEM un-explainable [06:02] are you telling me you are god Acolyte? [06:02] Kelsa (cimmerian@aladdin.bc.ca) joined #Apologetics. [06:02] <[Tony]> moreta: We will be judged by the words of Jesus Christ. [06:02] sorry about that.. [06:02] tony: yeah i really appreciate the smog and pollution and oil spills.. what a great guy [06:02] are you all fixxed kelsa? [06:02] Gratia (gratia4@tpafl2-30.gate.net) joined #apologetics. [06:02] bigEnuf (rkristma@204.174.87.66) joined #apologetics. [06:02] bigEnuf (rkristma@204.174.87.66) left #apologetics. [06:02] we dont judge .... we have the Word of God ... it judges all things ... we speak what it speaks ... to speak out of my own ideas would be judgement .. to deny the ideas of the Lord would not be tolerance for you but would only hurt yo u .. listen to the Word of God [06:02] Action: bleuIris thinks that he wishes he were god [06:02] but you aren't jesus christ. [06:02] dajester that is description, not explanation.Science and natural alws describe, they do not explain [06:02] moreta so? [06:02] madison00 (msellie@199.186.181.152) joined #Apologetics. [06:02] <[Tony]> gennie: who created that? surely not God. [06:03] your bot flooded me... did something really bizarre to my computor.. [06:03] Action: bleuIris thinks he thinks hes close [06:03] kelsa its called kicked [06:03] it is god smoting you down Kelsa [06:03] Can someone please give me a few USA servers....I'm too lagged on this one :) [06:03] but by using the words of christ as your battering ram you are judging, tis not your right. [06:03] nooo.. it did something to the way my keyboard workd [06:03] tony; But his creation did, isnt that what you are saying?: to be thankful for what he gives us each day? [06:03] moreta perhaps God told us to judge by his Word. [06:03] Action: Moreta laughs at bleuiris [06:03] <[Tony]> moreta: read Ezekiel 3:18. [06:03] it was a message from god Kelsa [06:03] gratia try vancouver.bc.ca.undernet.org [06:03] laugh bleu [06:04] dajester do you know what I mean? [06:04] oh.. hmm.. ok bleu, thanks:) huggles [06:04] only god can judge so are you there for by your statement stating that god is speaking? [06:04] Acolyte: well, your God doesn't explain any more than science does, so why should your God be valid? [06:04] Action: bleuIris thinks she should read the bible someday, just so she can quote it frothingly [06:04] moreta God spoke in Scritpure [06:04] madison00 (msellie@199.186.181.152) left #Apologetics. [06:04] moretya it is not a battering ram but a 2 edged sword which quick quick to the heart of every issue dividing truth and darkness [06:04] <[Tony]> gennie: know this; when we violate his natural laws; we will pay the consequences for our decision. If we neglect so great a salvation as he offers, we have condemned ourselves. [06:04] Gratia (gratia4@tpafl2-30.gate.net) left irc: Leaving [06:04] moreta: i think they think that by believing in the bible that they themselves are god(s). [06:04] she is questioned [06:04] cut quick [06:04] no he didn't Acolyte.. man spoke in scripture. [06:05] tony i know that [06:05] but he is not speaking now you are, and you are not god there for you can not judge if you follow the scriptures. [06:05] dajester sure does, he tells you not aonly HOW something is but more importantly WHY somethig IS [06:05] tony any moron knows that [06:05] kels how do you know that? [06:05] Bleu: Nahhhh, don't bother, it's really pretty lame and it only impresses those weak in mind [06:05] tony i d ont need a bible to tell me that its physics [06:05] moreta I have God's Words [06:05] Action: bleuIris smiles [06:05] Nick change: [Tony] -> KingsKid [06:05] Bleu: quothing the bible that is [06:05] moreta youc an too if youread the Bible [06:05] well, lets see here.. is wa[Cs RECORDRD by ma[Cn. [06:05] zx but tis not you or anyone else who is god there for tis not your right to judge what is right or wrong [06:05] ac i read the bible, and i dont got it [06:05] whats the deal? [06:05] i have been robbed!!! [06:05] Gratia (gratia4@tpafl2-30.gate.net) joined #apologetics. [06:05] dajester Metaphysics posits a non-determined system [06:06] everyone else has it, but not i!! [06:06] Acolyte: ok, smart boy, WHY did God create the universe? [06:06] dajester Metaphysics posits a non-determined system hence allwoing for epistemolgoy [06:06] Action: bleuIris laughs [06:06] Dajester many reasons [06:06] I ha[Cve to go[C.. [06:06] acolyte define it [06:06] my keyboar[Cd[C is d[Coin[Cg[C [C[C [06:06] phooey [06:06] come on bible boy... [06:06] [Cs[[C[[[[C [06:06] [C[C[C[Cx [06:06] [Cx [06:06] lol [06:06] dajester he is the source of Reason, he is reason enough, Thats for starters [06:06] [C[C[Cx [06:06] [C[Cx [06:06] [Cx [06:06] [C[Cx [06:06] Kelsa (cimmerian@aladdin.bc.ca) left irc: Read error to Kelsa[aladdin.bc.ca]: EOF from client [06:06] Acolyte: OK, give me some of those reasons [06:07] I think she spilled a lot of milk on the keygboard. [06:07] nod mo [06:07] Ok.......is anyone here a "mature" Christian?? Meaning over 15 years??? No offense intended towards anyone :) [06:07] laugh [06:07] im 23, b ut im not a christion [06:07] Heb4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hea rt. (KJV) [06:07] err christian [06:07] You girls are fulfilling Paul's prophesy; how kind. [06:07] Action: bleuIris thinks that Acolytes faith would be challenged if he didnt have his bible in hand [06:07] Acolyte: Do you even know why? [06:07] dajester he is the source of Reason, he is reason enough, Thats for starters [06:07] kings what prophecy [06:07] dajester yes I do [06:07] and what girls [06:07] girls? [06:08] blueiris its in my head [06:08] Acolyte: so spit it out! [06:08] gratia whats the problem [06:08] ac: definition please? [06:08] last time I checked i was past the age of puberty. [06:08] mo.. you are? [06:08] laugh [06:08] dajester for love, for his Glory, to share many things with. [06:08] I need to discuss something.....but I need a very mature Christian with which to do it... [06:08] Shroud (yabba-dab@max1-so-ca-46.earthlink.net) joined #apologetics. [06:08] ooohh what a lame answer [06:08] that is such a cop out [06:08] gennie definition of what? [06:08] puhhhleeeease [06:08] gratia what? [06:08] gennie definition of what? [06:08] evil men and seducers.. ah there it is, the men need to die. [06:08] Acolyte: JUst because, and because he was lonely? [06:09] ac definition of the many reasons why god created the universe.. [06:09] dajester did I say he was lonely? [06:09] Acolyte....just certain things......rather personal........ [06:09] dajester did I say he was lonely? [06:09] gratia ok [06:09] gratia /msg me if you like then [06:09] Acolyte: YOu said he wanted to share his glory [06:09] i wanna know why i got ripped off when i read the bible [06:09] dajester no, I said he did it for his glory not that he would share it [06:09] Acolyte: So in other words, he wanted somone to brag to? [06:10] dajester no [06:10] Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt - I just leanred that there is a major virus set to go off March 6th, 1996 @ 9:00 am EST. This is supposed to be a big one, and it was actually a newsflash at 12:00 pm PST. Thought you might wan t to know this [06:10] i OBVIOULSY dont have the spirit of jesus walking around in my house.. and i read the bible [06:10] dajester you cant seem to separate your motives and acts from God's [06:10] He is not a man like you [06:10] zx: Do you know why God created the universe? [06:11] nope not that verse [06:11] da if i did do you think you could understand it [06:11] its the michaelangelo however you spell it, its been one thats suppose to be going off every year [06:11] dajester you cant even understand a floppy drive in your computer [06:11] Action: bleuIris yawns [06:11] bleuIris (Michael_B@line060.nwm.mindlink.net) left #apologetics. [06:11] Action: Moreta blows bubbles. [06:12] Muffers you still here? [06:12] zx: Well Acolyte thinks ther is a reason that God created everything, and he thinks that his Bible tells him the reasons for everything, because my science doesn't [06:12] and tho you cant even understand how that floopy in your computer works you are calling God non existant because He wont show you the underpinnings of eternity [06:12] I know how my floppy works [06:12] Yep just enjoying the diverse points of view [06:13] Thankyou very much [06:13] captive silly women? [06:13] not really dajester cause no one is all that sure about how electricty works [06:13] hehe [06:13] Moreta: Yep, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [06:13] Gratia (gratia4@tpafl2-30.gate.net) left #apologetics. [06:13] dajester God created to share wonderful things with us and to love us. That is a reason. [06:13] whos truth kingskid? yours? [06:14] dajester forget the floppy anaolgy you know what im talking about [06:14] It's called electrons, the move arond and it makes electricity [06:14] moreta: If the shoe fits, wear it. [06:14] and dajester i dont think you know how a floppy drive works either [06:14] your not my truth, deal with it. [06:14] dajester that is HOW it works, not WHY it works [06:14] brb [06:14] Gennie (deadhead95@prostar.com) left irc: Gennie [06:14] zx: So you are saying that we can't understand why? [06:15] Shroud (yabba-dab@max1-so-ca-46.earthlink.net) left #apologetics. [06:15] dajester could a cave man understand a computer [06:15] No but mom lets me come to her anyway:} [06:15] could a cave man break an encryption scheme [06:15] Acolyte: SO again, your God doesn't tell you why, so why should science tell us why? [06:15] and thats not even close dajester [06:15] to what youre asking [06:15] dajester, I already told you [06:16] dajester, God explains, science describes [06:16] Acolyte: Just because is your answer? [06:16] dajester the Lord has shown me things i couldnt even describe to you [06:16] dajester no, i gave other reasons before,perhaps you did not see them [06:16] Acolyte: NO, God does not explain, we just went through that! [06:17] rats 5 min countdown [06:17] muffy (muffy@prostar.com) left irc: Read error to muffy[prostar.com]: EOF from client [06:17] Acolyte: SO you are saying that God created the univers just because he is so glorious? [06:17] oh ratsies..system here is doing nightly shut down [06:18] Moreta (moreta@prostar.com) left #apologetics. [06:19] dejester to love us, for us to expereince Love, colors, things that taste good, and everything that is Good and right. For his glory. etc etc etc. God is the source fo reason, he is reason enough for everything [06:19] ~\o/~ WELL GLORY TO GOD [06:19] dejester God is the reason for everything. ANything he does is reasonable by definition, PRetty simple [06:19] heheeheeeee dajester i gotta go ...... nice talking to you :-) [06:19] Lift up your hearts [06:19] We Lift them up unto the Lord our God [06:19] It is meeet and right so to do [06:19] God bless you dajester to bring you to HImself - may He lift your eyes toward HIm [06:19] It is very meet and right to give thee thanks Most Merciful God in all times and in all places...-Anglican Liturgy [06:19] zx (well@robertk.accessone.com) left #apologetics. [06:19] Acolyte: YOu don't have an answer for why any more than science does [06:19] dajester that is one reason, he created it so that we could experience godo things [06:19] Nite Acolyte: God bless one and all. [06:19] KingsKid (tony@slip13.dtx.net) left #Apologetics. [06:19] dajester, perhaps I can explain this bettetr [06:20] dajester, if I measure a brick [06:20] perhaps [06:20] I tell yo how tall it is [06:20] how wide it is [06:20] how much it weaighs [06:20] its density [06:20] etc [06:20] but WHY is the brick there? [06:20] can a ruler tell me that? [06:20] No [06:20] science DESCRIBES [06:20] it dos not explain WHY [06:20] God tells us WHY things are [06:21] Science would tell you that it got there because somone put it there [06:21] science tells us HOW the things are that God made [06:21] dajester no that is how again [06:21] it moved by someone [06:21] not why [06:21] it never tells why somethng exists rather than nothing at all [06:21] Because the wanted it there [06:21] Neither does GOd [06:22] dajester but what is want? either want is soemthign opn-physical or it is bio-chemcial functions in a body [06:22] Where did God come from? [06:22] sur does [06:22] God makes the world personal [06:22] easy questin [06:22] God is non-contingent [06:22] go for it then [06:22] God is non-contingent [06:22] just did [06:22] So you are saying God has always been? [06:22] yup [06:22] well think of it this way [06:23] Either any thing X has alwasy been or it came to be at some time [06:23] God is the source of all things [06:23] Well ,then why could't you just throw out God and just sau that for the universe? [06:23] he is before all [06:23] dajester ah good question [06:23] here why [06:23] 1.does the universe always exist? [06:23] No [06:23] Red shift [06:24] and other evidence show us it came to be at one point [06:24] 2. [06:24] Not the universe as whe know it, but somthing else could have been there [06:24] the everything inthe cosmos is contingent [06:24] dajester could have? [06:24] maybe? [06:24] And it doesn't have to be supernatural [06:24] or are we talking about what we know? [06:24] oh it doesn't? How so? [06:25] dajester youtell me what a transendetal non-physical cause for the cosmos would be, if not SUPRA-natural (above nature)? [06:25] Just because we don't know how somthing works, doesn't mean it's supernatural [06:25] ok sure I agree [06:25] but we DO KNOW, that is the problem [06:25] we KNOW by evidence that the unbiverse probably began at a point [06:25] that is the point [06:25] At one time disese was thought to be supernatural, because we didn't know how it worked [06:26] there is a nice theory going around, its called the Big bang. heard of it [06:26] dajester yeah so? [06:26] dajester, so how does that mean it willbe natural now? [06:26] dajester two very different states of afairs [06:26] The universe in it's preasent form, yes, but it could have been somthing else before the big bang [06:26] could have been? [06:26] the evidence does nto say could have been tho [06:26] brb [06:28] Acolyte (st_aidan@delta1.deltanet.com) left irc: Read error to Acolyte[delta1.deltanet.com]: EOF from client [ref002]Return to #apologetics Home Page [ref003]Return to LOGS Page [ref004]Go to the MCU Virtual Library [ref001] http://mcu.edu/library/logs/log_3_6_96.html [ref002] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/apologetics.html [ref003] http://www.fiu.edu/~wgreen01/logs.html [ref004] ../

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