Computer underground Digest Sun June 7, 1992 Volume 4 : Issue 25 Editors: Jim Thomas and G

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Computer underground Digest Sun June 7, 1992 Volume 4 : Issue 25 Editors: Jim Thomas and Gordon Meyer (TK0JUT2@NIU.BITNET) Associate Editor: Etaion Shrdlu, Jr. Newest Authormeister: B. Kehoe Arcmeister: Bob Kusumoto Downundermeister: Dan Carosone CONTENTS, #4.25 (June 7, 1992) File 1--Detailed Summary of X-Press (Response to CuD 4.24) File 2--Study of E-Mail/Computer-Mediated Communication File 3--Major Congressional Candidates Commit to Elec. Civil Liberties File 4--Internet Society Details File 5--GEnie RTC with Hafner (Co-author of CYBERPUNK) Issues of CuD can be found in the Usenet news group, on CompuServe in DL0 and DL4 of the IBMBBS SIG, DL1 of LAWSIG, and DL0 and DL12 of TELECOM, on Genie in the PF*NPC RT libraries, on the PC-EXEC BBS at (414) 789-4210, and by anonymous ftp from (,, and To use the U. of Chicago email server, send mail with the subject "help" (without the quotes) to European distributor: ComNet in Luxembourg BBS (++352) 466893. COMPUTER UNDERGROUND DIGEST is an open forum dedicated to sharing information among computerists and to the presentation and debate of diverse views. CuD material may be reprinted as long as the source is cited. Some authors do copyright their material, and they should be contacted for reprint permission. It is assumed that non-personal mail to the moderators may be reprinted unless otherwise specified. Readers are encouraged to submit reasoned articles relating to computer culture and communication. Articles are preferred to short responses. Please avoid quoting previous posts unless absolutely necessary. DISCLAIMER: The views represented herein do not necessarily represent the views of the moderators. Digest contributors assume all responsibility for ensuring that articles submitted do not violate copyright protections. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Jun 92 04:48 EST From: "Michael E. Marotta" Subject: File 1--Detailed Summary of X-Press (Response to CuD 4.24) In CUD #4.24, the transcript of Cisler's forum on Genie mentioned X-Press. Here is a more detailed description of what X-Press is. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Excerpts from: "Connecting Your Computer to Cable TV Doubles the Dimensions of Cyberspace" by Michael E. Marotta (originally published Aug 1991 by TELECOMPUTING, Albuq, NM) X-PRESS Informations Services, Ltd., of Denver Colorado, makes it possible for your home computer to receive and store news via cable (or satellite) television. X-PRESS X-Change is their basic service; they also sell an "executive" connection geared to businesses. X-PRESS X-Change is a basic consumer information service provided by cable television companies to personal computers. The service is a constant stream of worldwide news, sports, and weather supplemented with articles on lifestyle, shopping, and entertainment. Conferencing with other users is also possible. International news is the key feature of X-Change. In addition to the Associated Press, there are nine other news feeds. Tass and Xinhua send news in English from the USSR and China. English-language news also comes from OPEC, Taiwan and Japan. NOTIMEX sends out news in Spanish from Mexico. User can define up to 16 keywords for which the computer will automatically scan. The results can be stored to disk for later evaluation. The service is generally compatible with IBM-PC, Apple // and Macintosh, Atari and Amiga computers. It is most compatible with IBM-PCs including the XT, AT and PC/2 lines. To run with an Apple //c or //e, requires a super serial card. As you would expect, only the Atari-ST series can be used and Amiga owners must have a 500, 1000 or 2000. This is a 16-bit service. Also, there are some differences in the kinds of special features the various kinds of personal computers will support. For example, all of them will news and stock quotes and all can write news stories to disk for future reference. However, only IBM, Atari and Amiga systems can accept futures and options information. To connect to X-Change, you buy an interface kit for $99.95. If your cable television service already offers X-change there is no other charge. Executive service costs $19.95 per month. The cost of the modem is higher, also, $149.95. If your cable television provider does not carry X-Change and doesn't want to, then you can use a satellite dish. The signal comes from Galaxy-1 transponders 7 (WTBS) and 18 (CNN) but you don't have to subscribe to these to use the InfoCipher equipment. Via satellite the Executive service costs $26.95 per month. Both the Executive and basic products give you access to financial information. For instance basic service includes the ability to track 128 symbols from 2000 securities. X-PRESS Executive provides quotes on 30,000 securities. In addition, stocks, Treasury rates, CDs, Broker Call Loans and foreign exchange rate, and selected metal prices are also available. X-PRESS also provides software for tracking and analyzing financial data. The output is compatible with Lotus 1-2-3. Conferencing is also possible. X-PRESS clients can dial in via a Tymnet 800 number. Users can read and post messages in several areas. X-PRESS then selects messages to be posted on the television feeds. The "Pen Pals" conference is popular with grade schoolers. High school students benefit from a "Science and Technology" conference that leans toward NASA activities. Thus, X-PRESS is basically a BBS via cable television or satellite. Of necessity, the information flow is generally one way, from X-PRESS to you. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 53 Jun 1992 17:22:51 CST From: Jim Thomas Subject: File 2--Study of E-Mail/Computer-Mediated Communication A novel study is being proposed by a number of participants of the bitnet Computer-Mediated Communication (CMC) newsgroup. It may be the first such study--done by researchers scattered around the world who have never met--of its kind. The CMC forum focuses on academic discussions related to the impact of computer and related technology on forms, content, and structure of communication. Those interested can subscribe by sending the command: JOIN CMC to: COMSERVE@RPIECS Here is a summary of the research: ++++++ original post follows +++++++ Date- Wed, 3 Jun 1992 19-19-00 IST From- Sheizaf Rafaeli Subject- E-Group study update E-Groups study, outline #3, update As promised, here is a short summary of what has happened (for those tuning-in late): It began with a discussion of the dynamics of discussions. David Levine, of UC Berkeley, proposed a 'bad posts drive out good' postulate, that ignited many of us. A group of us have agreed to attempt a joint study of the longevity and process of e-group discussions. We are now doing two things: 1) Mobilizing: identifying participants and collecting 'pledges'. 2) Conceptualizing: identifying research questions and hypotheses, with an eye toward a study or two. There seem to be, in the works, two parallel efforts. One line of inquiry will be qualitative. The purpose in this study will be an in-depth analysis of the dynamics occuring within a list. Prof. Brenda Danet will, I hope, fill in more details on this effort. The second project is shaping up to be a content-analysis of a representative sample of archived discussions, which may (later) be linked to surveys of users, moderators, participant observations, etc. Under discussion are the hypotheses such a data set can address. The e-group content analysis is an attempt to quantify group behavior (formation, cohesion, dispersal) on e-lists. The hypotheses suggested so far predict sensitivity of the threads of discussion to combinations of the following variables: * Length of messages * language of message * presence and nature of subject header * presence and nature of stylized signature * writer status * writer gender * dependency on previous messages (posts) * use of quotes from previous posts * tone (sarcasm, information, plea, threat, support, 'lecture') * use of questions, challenges * extent of use of nonverbal cues in message * presence of "flames" * metacommunication, that is communication about communication * personal interest vested in post * reference to external communication sources We intend to 'massage' these concepts into a workable codebook. If the numbers of participants stay where they are right now, the onerous nature of content analysis grunt work wont even be that bad. We should be able to generate reliable data. The codebook will then be used to content-analyze series of messages. Hopefully, we will end up with enough data to identify threads of discussions, and "communities" forming, lasting and/or disbanding. Eventually, if this works, we'll have at least two products on our hands: a. a large data set all can dip into. b. the experience of having collaborated without meeting. I believe either of the two is good enough reason to try. Under discussion, currently, are: 1) Hypotheses and research questions. 2) Items for inclusion in the codebook. 3) Individual lists for inclusion in the sample, or - alternatively - a method for selecting lists. Nothing is set in stone yet. It is all, literally, bits in the wind. So join in, Please! Sheizaf Rafaeli Hebrew University of Jerusalem or KBUSR@HUJIVM1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jun 92 10:59:51 PDT From: jwarren@AUTODESK.COM(Jim Warren) Subject: File 3--Major Congressional Candidates Commit to Elec. Civil Liberties Five Leading San Francisco Peninsula Congressional Candidates Sign Explicit Commitments to Protect "Electronic Civil Liberties" All but one of the six leading candidates for California's 14th Congressional District have formally committed to protect traditional constitutional liberties against technological threats. All three Republican candidates and two of the three leading Democratic candidates signed formal commitments. The 14th District covers northern "Silicon Valley" and the southern half of the San Francisco Peninsula. This is believed to be the first time that major-party congressional candidates have ever committed to explicit action to protect technology-related civil liberties. The candidates' signed statements that were much more than nice-sounding, equivocating "God, mother and apple-pie" principles. They made explicit commitments to take explicit action in their first/next term in Congress. Those 14th Dist candidates who signed the formal statement (below) included: Dixon Arnett (R), Tom Huening (R), Ted Lempert (D), Tom Nolan (D), Mike Maibach (R) and Chuck Olson (L). Gerry Andeen (D) sent a statement about the issues, but made NO COMMITMENTS. Anna Eshoo (D) FAILED TO RESPOND AFTER FOUR REQUESTS, as did then-candidate James Blackman (D), after three requests. The multiple requests were faxed and mailed to the candidates between Apr. 4th and Apr. 13th, along with an explanatory cover letter. Lempert was the first to respond -- apparently by return mail -- and added a two-page statement regarding technological threats to personal privacy and his commitment to seek protection against them, as well. Arnett's response also noted that he was one of the cosponsors of the Privacy Section that was added to the California Constitution during his tenure in the state Assembly. In addition, ten other Libertarian candidates signed the formal statement, apparently circulated by Libertarian activists, primarily using the computer nets. Those signing included: Alan F. Barksdale (U.S. Senate from Alabama), Richard Boddie (U.S. Senate from California), James Elwood (8th House Dist from California), June R. Genis (U.S. Senate from California), Robert D. Goodwyn (22nd California State Assembly Dist), Chuck Hammill (47th California State Assembly Dist), James J. Ludemann (California State Assembly), George L. O'Brien (12th House Dist from California), Anton Sherwood (12th California State Assembly Dist), Mark Valverde (13th California State Assembly Dist) and Will Wohler (3rd California State Senate Dist). Note: This Libertarian sign-up resulted entirely from one copy being sent by electronic-mail to June Genis (San Mateo County) and one to Mark Hinkle (Santa Clara County activist). Several others responded without committing to action: U.S. Senate candidate Tom Campbell (R) also sent a statement about the issues, but offered NO COMMITMENTS TO EXPLICIT ACTION, as did Glenn Tenney (D, 12th House). This effort was an outcome of disclosures before and during the First Conference on Computers, Freedom & Privacy, held near San Francisco International Airport in March, 1991. It drew over eighty pages of public and trade press coverage, internationally. This is the statement that was signed by the indicated candidates: Guaranteeing Constitutional Freedoms into the 21st Century Preface Harvard Law Professor Laurence H. Tribe, one of the nation's leading Constitutional scholars, views technological threats to our traditional constitutional freedoms and protections as so serious that -- for the first time in his career -- he has proposed a Constitutional Amendment: "This Constitution's protections for the freedoms of speech, press, petition and assembly, and its protections against unreasonable searches and seizures and the deprivation of life, liberty or property without due process of law, should be construed as fully applicable without regard to the technological method or medium through which information content is generated, stored, altered, transmitted or controlled." -- First Conf. on Computers, Freedom & Privacy, 3/27/91, Burlingame CA In the absence of such a constitutional clarification, legislation and regulation are the only alternatives to assure that citizens are protected from technological threats against their constitutional rights and freedoms. Candidate's Commitment to Action Preface: It has been over two centuries since our Constitution and Bill of Rights were adopted. The great technological changes in the interim --especially in computing, telecommunications and electronics -- now pose a clear and present danger to the rights and protections guaranteed in those great documents. Therefore: Commitment: In the first legislative session after I am [re]elected, I will author or co-author legislation reflecting the following specifics, and I will actively support and testify in favor of any similar legislation as may be introduced by others. Further, I will actively seek to include in such legislation, explicit personal civil and/or criminal penalties against any agent, employee or official of the government who violates any of these statutes. And finally, I will keep all citizens who express interest in legislative progress on these matters fully and timely informed. The protections guaranteed in the Constitution and its Amendments shall be fully applicable regardless of the current technology of the time. This particularly includes, but is not limited to: Speech: Freedom of speech shall be equally protected, whether by voice or in written form as in the 18th Century, or by electronic transmission or computer communication as in the 20th Century and thereafter. Press: Freedom of the press shall be equally protected, whether its information is distributed by print as in the 18th Century, or by networked computers or other electronic forms, as in the 20th Century and thereafter. Liability for content: Just as a printer is not liable for content of leaflets printed for a customer, so also shall the owner or operator of a computer or electronic or telecommunications facility be held harmless for the content of information distributed by users of that facility, except as the owner or operator may, by contract, control information content. Those who author statements and those who have contractual authority to control content shall be the parties singularly responsible for such content. Assembly: Freedom of assembly shall be equally protected, whether by face-to-face meeting as in the 18th Century, or by computer-based electronic-conference or other teleconference as in the 20th Century and thereafter. The right to hold confidential meetings shall be equally protected, whether they be by personal meeting in private chambers, or by computer-assisted or electronic-based means. Self-defense: The right of the people to keep and use computers and communications connections shall not be abridged by the government. Search & seizure: The right of the people to be secure in their papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall be fully applicable to their electronic mail, computerized information and personal computer systems. Warrants: No warrants for search or seizure shall issue for computerized information, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the computer system to be searched and the specific information to be seized. Secure information vaults: Just as search and seizure of letters in a post-office, and papers in a bank-vault lock-box, and surveillance of telephone conversations by wire-tap, each require a separate warrant for each postal address, lock-box and telephone line, so also shall a separate warrant be required for each electronic-mail address and/or computer files of each suspect, when stored in a computer facility or archive shared by others. And further, computer files stored in a shared facility or archive by or for a citizen who is neither named in a warrant nor associated with a suspect so-named, may not be used against that un-named citizen, if seized or discovered during legal search of or for files of a suspect. Self-incrimination: No person shall be compelled in any civil or criminal case to be a witness against himself or herself, nor be compelled to provide information retained only in their mind, nor otherwise be compelled to assist the translation or decoding of information that he or she believes may be self-incriminating. Property: Private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation, nor shall such property be used nor sold by any government agency for less than fair market value, in which case all such proceeds shall promptly derive singularly to its last owner prior to government seizure. Speedy release: Anyone not accused of a crime shall enjoy the right to a speedy release and return of all of their property, as may be seized under any warrant, particularly including their computerized information. The government shall be fully liable for any damage befalling property or information they have seized. [ Additional copies of this model candidate's position commitment are available from: Jim Warren, Electronic Democracy Initiatives, 345 Swett Road, Woodside CA 94062; (415)851-7075, fax/(415)851-2814; electronic-mail/ -or- For identification purposes, only: organized and chaired the First Conference on Computers, Freedom & Privacy (3/91), received one of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's first Pioneer Awards (3/92), is a "futures" columnist for MicroTimes, an Autodesk Board member, the founder of InfoWorld, PBS-TV "Computer Chronicles" founding host, etc. ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1992 17:54:44 GMT From: NEELY_MP@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU(Mark P. Neely, Northern Territory Univ.) Subject: File 4--Internet Society Details Details of the Internet Society for the readers of CuD:- >From: Geoff Huston The Internet Society Newsletter is a publication of the Internet >Society, sent to members of the Internet Society free of charge. >To receive a subscription you need to join the Internet Society >as a personal member. Regular membership is $70 US p.a. and >student membership is $25 US p.a. The Internet Society is a >non-profit professional society whose objective >is facilitate and support the technical evolution of the >Internet as a research and education infrastructure. >To join send you details (name, address, email) to the Internet >Society at > >cheers >Geoff Huston ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 92 21:08:09 EDT From: Gordon Meyer <72307.1502@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: File 5--GEnie RTC with Hafner (Co-author of CYBERPUNK) ______________________________________________________ | | | The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable |______ |______________________________________________________| | | Sysops' GE Mail: PF$ RTC Sunday 9pm EDT: MOVE 545;2 |______ |___________________________________________________________| | | News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits | |________________________________________________________________| Real-time Conference on Cyberpunk with Katie Hafner (May 24, 1992) ==================================================================== (C) 1992 by GEnie (R) and Public Forum*NonProfit Connection This file may be distributed only in its entirety and with this notice intact. CYBERPUNK: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier has intrigued everyone from William (Neuromancer) Gibson to Mitch (Lotus Development) Kapor. On May 24 at 9pm ET, author Katie Hafner joined us to talk about the social consequences of computer networks and the communities that have grown up around them. The government has both raided local BBSs and solicited proposals for a "weaponized virus." What rules of the road would you make for computer networks? Former news editor of Data Communications magazine, Katie was correspondent for Business Week specializing in technology and computers. A graduate of the University of California at Santa Barbara, with an M.A. from Columbia University School of Journalism, she's now working on a book about German reunification. The New York Times' John Markoff is co-author of Cyberpunk. This RTC is the third in the Public Forum's month-long program on Technology and Society. Our next RTC is May 31. And don't miss lively discussion of Science, Technology and Society in bulletin board category 7, and check out the files on technology and society in our library. See Cat 7/Topic 1 for details. An electronic meeting place for friends, family and national "town meetings," GEnie is an international online computer network for information, education and entertainment. For under $5.00/month, GEnie offers over 50 special interest bulletin boards and unlimited electronic mail at no extra charge during evenings, weekends and holidays. GEnie is offered by GE Information Services, a division of General Electric Company. In the Public Forum*NonProfit Connection, thousands of people every day discuss politics and a wide range of social and nonprofit issues. A neutral arena for all points of view, the PF*NPC is presented by Public Interest Media, a nonprofit organization devoted to empowering people through the socially productive use of information and communication technology. For more information about GEnie or the Public Forum, call 1-800-638-9636 or send electronic mail to To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH. At the U#= prompt, type XTX88367,GENIE . The system will prompt you for information. ==================================================================== __________________________________________________________ -=(( The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable ))=- -==((( GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC )))==- -=((__________________________________________________________))=- I'd like to welcome everyone to the RTC. Katie, why don't you say a few words and introduce yourself. <[Katie] PRESS11> let's see... john markoff (my husband) and i wrote cyberpunk over a period... of about three years and it came out last summer. but the book isn't cheap, so luckily, the papberback is coming out next month let's see...what else?....oh yes, now i'm living in berlin... most of the time, working on a second book. Let me explain the process here . . . Before we get started, a word about the process . . . At the beginning, only Katie and people asking questions will be able to talk so that everyone gets a turn . . If you have a question, type /RAI to raise your hand. I'll call on you in order. Please type your question, but DON'T hit to send it. When you're called on, THEN hit to send your question quickly . . . so we'll have time for more questions . . . It's good to use three periods if you have more to say and to put GA for "go ahead" at the end of a final phrase . . . So let's see those /RAIsed hands and I'll start calling on you! GA <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, did you actually meet Kevin Mitnick & the others in your book ga <[Katie] PRESS11> yes. i met everyone in the book. the only one who didn't cooperate with the book was kevin... kevin is the hacker we wrote about in the first section of the book... a member of an l.a. gang of phone phreaks and hackers called the roscoe gang... he wanted to be paid to talk to us, and i explained to him (and his grandmother, who was working as his agent...) that journalists, for obvious ethical reasons, do not (if they're good journalists, that is)... pay sources fo information. <[Gene] G.STOVER> When do you think cyberspace will be available to the general public? What part will NREN and ISDN play in this? <[Katie] PRESS11> it already is... the more bandwidth, the more cyberspace! ga After a few more people have had a chance to ask questions . . . I'll give everyone a second or third or fourthchance . . . Richard, your question? <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Who was the publisher for each edition? <[Katie] PRESS11> simon & schuster did the hardcover, and an imprint of S&S... called Touchstone is doing the paperback. ga <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Who was your editor at the publishing house. (Sorry for my unfamiliarity with the commands) <[Katie] PRESS11> my editor? a very nice guy who doesn't know a lot about technology named Bob Bender ga Katie, I read _The Cuckoo's Egg_, and was fascinated -- and appalled. Have The Powers That Be become any more security conscious, or at least any more willing to listen in the event something like that happens again? <[Katie] PRESS11> it's still pretty bad, security-wise out there... there are lots of loopholes. everywhere. ga <[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER> did he give you permission to write about him ..... m <[Katie] PRESS11> no. no one gave us permission. we're journalists, not movie producers. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> We read about the really sensational cases of hackers. How much of a problem are they overall? And in trying to limit their activities, do we lose more than we gain (since we limit other, legitimate, users as well)? <[Katie] PRESS11> i think that the press reports that blow the hacking incidents out of proportion.... do a real disservice to society... that is, i think that now the public at large has an exaggerated fear of hackers. in the book... we tried to write very realistically about what really happened... and i do think that we're treading aline between restricting access too much and leaving systems too wide open. ga <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, What was your feelings about the chaos club in Germany? <[Katie] PRESS11> i like them a lot... they're very different from hackers in the united states, and that was kind of interesting... <[Darryl] D.JENT> How much of their activities did you get to witness ga <[Katie] PRESS11> wau holland, the founder of chaos, is an old 60's radical, and a liberatarian who's categorically opposed to authority ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, did you see Darryl's second qeustion -- how much of their activities did you get to witness? <[Katie] PRESS11> oops. sorry... yeah. i hung out with pengo in berlin for several weeks... and of course i witnessed quite a bit... he was good (at hacking, that is), but more of a talker, really, than anything else... the really talented one in that group was probably markus hess, the one who was in the berkeley computers and who gave cliff stoll such a heart attack... and in the end, they all got scared and ratted on each other and three of them went to jail (well, hess's parents bailed him out) ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, who do you think is going to draw that line between too little restriction and too much? What role does the public play? ga <[Katie] PRESS11> i guess we have to draw the line... i mean, we are all sitting in cyberspace right now, and we're pretty much respecting the rules of the road... and if we want to keep the feds from telling us what we can and cannot do in cyberspace then we have to come up with rules that are acceptable to us and to them. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> How do you think the "rules of the road" will change when commercial firms become more evident with NREN? Are they more concerned about security than universities, etc.? <[Katie] PRESS11> in a way it's too bad because anything that goes commercial takes on a formal flavor that can be restrictive... but that's not always the case... but yes, they are concerned about security, particularly because of all the security firms out there telling them they should be. ga <[Andrea] A.DUDA> One of the things I like about the Internet is being able to go to various computers for information. Do you think the whole system will become more restrictive to accommodate the commercial firms? <[Katie] PRESS11> new technology such as cryptography... will tend to make commercialization work because it will make breaking into systems more difficult. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, would you say something about the differences between European and US regulations governing security and privacy -- and the potential for problems with the European Community? <[Katie] PRESS11> the europeans have always (like in all things) been a little bit behind the u.s.... in hacking laws. the most interesting thing about it is that as soon as a country makes it illegal to break into computers... then the hacking drops precipitously (or maybe the underground goes deeper)... the international folks at the ec are already trying to come up with uniform laws governing computer security throughout the european community. yawn. ga <[Phillip] P.MAY2> katie, do you feel there is a greater potential for abuse of systems from "insiders", i.e. employees of companies who implement the systems, or outsiders like those described in you r book .? ga <[Katie] PRESS11> of course there is... it's pretty widely known that almost all of the white-collar crime out there that uses computers and is most expensive to business is committed by insiders... but companies get very embarrassed by that... and they tend not to report those crimes... they'd rather report crimes that seem to be committed by juvenile delinquents... not their own people! ga <[Darryl] D.JENT> What is nren & Katie what is the new book about. More hackers or what?... I loved your first book, read it in two days ga <[Katie] PRESS11> national research and education network, designed to send data above a gigabit... and tie all the nation's supercomputer centers together and it's federally funded. the book i'm working on now... is about a particular house in gemrany. just over the glienicker bride (where all the spies used to be exchanged)... in berlin. nothing to do with computers. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Darryl, check out the article from the Whole Earth Review about data highways; it's in our file library (with permission, of course :-) Darryl, follow up question? <[Darryl] D.JENT> Sounds interesting still, I'll thanks <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Stock exchanges and currency exchanges are close to 24 hour world-wide operation. How possible will it be for insiders to undetectable manipulate the markets?GA <[Katie] PRESS11> quite possible. have you heard about the $170 million or so that disappeared mysteriously from volkswagen's books?... this happened a few years ago. ga <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> No. I haven't heard the VW story. I think the potential for financial hacking is enormous GA <[Katie] PRESS11> i think you're absolutely right... and i think we (the public) only hear about a very small fraction of the stuff that goes on. ga <[Tom] SHERMAN> Before we move into open discussion, I want to take a second to . . . thank all of you for your question and, especially, . . . to thank Katie for joining us! <[Katie] PRESS11> it was fun! sorry about all my typing blunders :-) <[Tom] SHERMAN> And now for the winners of our contest . . . Thanks to Simon & Schuster, the publishers of CYBERPUNK, for donating four copies of the book to our contest winners. Thanks to everyone for submitting such imaginative entries!. . . The envelope please . . . For the best scenarios describing constructive uses of hacking, T.CAMPBELL11 and M.VANCE1. And for destructive uses, S.CURTISIII1 and D.TAMPLIN. Congratulations to Tim, Vance, Stan and David! I'll now open the room so that all of us can type . . . <[Tom] SHERMAN> No one counts typing blunders, Katie, not in here! <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> RTC spell-checkers. The next cyber-frontier! <[Andrea] A.DUDA> Are the contest winners all in one place where we can read them? <[Tom] SHERMAN> Yes, the contest entries are in Cat 7/Topics 16 and 17, except . . . for one that was sent by e-mail because the author thought it too dangerous to post in public <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie, what do you think about the FBI's interest in legislation requiring the phone companies to make digital phone transmission accessible to them? (Did you see Marc and Janlori on Koppel's program the other night?) <[Katie] PRESS11> it's the stupidest thing i've ever heard of. it will never work... people will just buy cheap encryption. <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, have you meet meet William Gibson & How surprised are you at the way his books have become reality? <[Tom] SHERMAN> Hmmm, say a little more about that, would you? <[Katie] PRESS11> i've talked to him on the phone. i'd like to meet him, though. he's extremely tall, i hear ... but what part has become reality? ga <[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON> Darryl, pray that the world itself does not become that horrible. <[Katie] PRESS11> you're not kidding. <[Darryl] D.JENT> I was meaning the way virtual reality is shaping <[Darryl] D.JENT> Most of what I've read about VR lately was in his books <[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON> I've had some success with virtual reality using x-specs and stereo headphones. <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Experiment surgery has been done for the hearing impaired, wiring the bones between the ear and the brain so that some sound can be heard. This is, I suggest, a rudimentary form of the cyber-wiring that is certain to come. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Richard, will they just wire digital jacks where our ears used to be? <[Katie] PRESS11> that's been done for the blind, too. <[Andrea] A.DUDA> Interesting thought, Richard. Imagine what happens if someone messes with that! I heard that on a talk show just this morning, Richard! <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Yes, Tom. Expect that eventually it will be done by radio receivers, not wires. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Will there be an OFF switch? <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Let's hope so, Tom That'll depend on whether or not we end up in 1984 or Brave New World. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Is this what Gene meant when he said we'd all be on the network? <[Darryl] D.JENT> Katie, what is the wildest computer lab you have visited as far as technologically advanced? <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> I've often thought it was just a question of who got us first---the cyberpunks or the genetic engineers. Eventually it will be both. <[Katie] PRESS11> it's a toss-up between the media lab and xerox parc <[Darryl] D.JENT> It that the media lab at MIT? Is that Xerox in Leesburg, VA? <[Katie] PRESS11> yeah, and xerox parc in palo alto I haven't been to Palo Alto, but I've been to Leesburg. It's pretty wild too. ;) <[Darryl] D.JENT> hAVE YOU MET mARVIN mINSKY at MIT, He has wrote some wild books about the brain & AI <[Katie] PRESS11> yes. he's a wild guy. you should meet his daughter <[Darryl] D.JENT> Tom, I didn't get a chance to, but will I loved his book Society of the Mind. <[Katie] PRESS11> i've never read that. <[Darryl] D.JENT> It's about using Artificial Intelligence & trying to mimic the brain <[Darryl] D.JENT> About how the easiest things we do as humans are the hardest to get a computer to do. <[Tom] SHERMAN> Katie's already stayed longer than I asked and so . . I want to thank her again for joining us and . . . to remind all of you that Jerry Berman, formerly of the ACLU and now . . . head of the D.C. office of the Electronic Frontier Foundation will . . . be our guest next Sunday! . . . Do join us and, during the week, . . . take a minute to add your thoughts to our bulletin board discussion about . . . technology and society in Category 7 . . . All of you . . . are welcome to stay as long as you like. Katie. thanks again! <[Darryl] D.JENT> Such as moving Thanks, Katie, will have to read your new book. Good luck <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> Thanks Katie, Tom. Enjoyed the RTC. Looking forward to visiting again. You can get to the PF*NPC bulletin board on page 8011;1 -- it's a Basic service. -----# Participants #----- <[Andrea] A.DUDA> <[Darryl] D.JENT> <[Dave] D.THOMPSON74> <[2] eric] E.SHCHNEIDER> <[Gene] G.STOVER> <[Fomalhaut] J.PAXSON> <[Lamont] L.INGALLS> <[Phillip] P.MAY2> <[Katie] PRESS11> <[Richard] R.GILLIAM3> <[Tom] SHERMAN> <[Tom] T.BARKER6> __________________________________________________________________ | Rights & responsibilities, government, politics, minority civil |_ | rights, volunteerism, nonprofit management, the media, the | | | environment, international issues, gay/lesbian/bisexual issues, | | | women & men, parenting, youth organizations and more! | | |__________________________________________________________________| | |__________________________________________________________________| ________ PF$ PF*NPC Sysops _____________ | |_ | Weekly RTC: |_ | The | | SHERMAN Tom Sherman | 9pm Eastern | | | PF*NPC | | SCOTT Scott Reed | on Sundays! | | | Staff: | | CHERNOFF Paul Chernoff | Type M545;2 | | |________| | GRAFFITI Ric Helton |_____________| | |________| SHERRY Sherry |_____________| __________________________________________________________ -=(( The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable ))=- -==((( GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC )))==- -=((__________________________________________________________))=- | | This listing was generated by LRTC Version 1.00 | (C)opyright by Hartmut W. Malzahn, 1991. All rights reserved. | # # # ------------------------------ End of Computer Underground Digest #4.25 ************************************


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