By: John A. Leopard To: Preston Simpson Re: Homosexual Christians? On Fri 17-Nov-1995 6:22

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By: John A. Leopard To: Preston Simpson Re: Homosexual Christians? On Fri 17-Nov-1995 6:22p, Preston Simpson said to Don Martin: DM> Well, the organizing hormone scheme above does seem to be in DM> harmony with the higher incidence of homosexual boys born to London DM> women pregnant during the Blitz: in accounts of that event, I see PS> I thought that study was done in Germany, not London. Perhaps both? There was a study done in Germany in 1980 (Dorner, G., Geier, T., Ahrens, L., Krell, L., Munx, G., Sieler, H., Kittner, E., and Muller, H., "Prenatal stress as possible aetiogenetic factor of homosexuality in human males" Endokrinologie 75:365-386). This study reported a greater incidence of homosexuality among men born during the Second World War. Another study in 1988 (Ellis, L., Ames, M.A., Peckham, W., and Burke, D. reported in the Journal of Sex Research 25:152-157) seems to offer partial support for the stress hypothesis. But a study done in 1991 (Bailey, J.M., Willerman, L., and Parks, C. "A test of the maternal stress theory of human male homosexuality." Archives of Sexual Behavior 20:277-293) came up with a totally different conclusion. This study reported that women who have had a gay and a straight son do not recall different levels of stress during the two pregnancies. I tend to believe that stress may have SOME effect - under certain circumstances - but not that great of an effect or there would be a more easily charted correlation between wars, earthquakes, etc., and the presence of homosexuals in a particular society. And what should not be ignored is that a few people might be born homosexual because of maternal stress - but the majority of those who are born homosexual are homosexual because of a genetic predisposition. PS> Something like that. It has been known for some time that exposing PS> expecting mothers to stresses that will raise their level of certain PS> hormones (I *think* that they're androgens, but I'm not sure) at PS> certain times will produce homosexual offspring--in rats and monkeys. PS> From other research done with rats and monkeys, I'd be willing to PS> bet that the same holds true for humans. There's been a lot of research on the subject - I have posted some previously in other echos - but you are basically correct as far as PRE-NATAL hormone exposure is concerned. As far as post-natal hormone exposure, Dr. John Money has been doing that kind of research since the 1970's and what he says (in "The Adam Principle: Genes, Genitals, Hormones & Gender: Selected Readings on Sexology" (c) 1993, Prometheus Books ISBN 0-87975-804-X) is: "The sum total of present evidence is that no hormone measurements differentiate those in whom sexual orientation is homosexual and those in whom it is heterosexual or bisexual. On the contrary, hormones that participate in sexual functioning, whether secreted from the hypothalmus, pituitary, or gonads, are best characterized as being homosexually and heterosexually not different but bipotential. Similiarly, they are best characterized as being bipotential for masculinity and feminity, also, insofar as their difference in men and women is not absolute but relative. The difference between male and female, hormonally, is determined by the ratio of sex hormone levels in the bloodstream, the periodicity of their release, and, to a variable extent, the response threshold of the different target organs they stimulate." (Page 23) PS> The trick is that the stress has to come at the right point in PS> prenatal development. If it doesn't, then there might be no effect PS> or the body structure might be changed while leaving orientation PS> intact. Body structure is determined and "programmed" at a different PS> time than the brain is, thus is it possible to literally have PS> a woman's brain in a man's body (and vice versa). EXACTLY! DM> The bozo I was addressing above _seemed_ to be maintaining that DM> homosexual behavior sommehow alters genes, and THAT's why we find There is a common argument by homophobes that Dr. Simon LeVay's conclusions on the brain differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals are incorrect because homosexual behavior somehow alters brain structures - and that is not only incorrect but the same brain structure differences have been found in children who have not reached puberty... PS> I noticed that. I tend to disagree, though twin studies suggest that PS> homosexuality has a genetic component. If I can get the raw data for PS> the twin studies, I can run 'em through the t test and see if they're PS> valid for myself. I can give you the citations to about a dozen twin studies, if you want them. You would have to look up each study and see how much of the hard data is contained therein to verify. I'm sure you've read "The Science of Desire: The Search for the Gay Gene and the Biology of Behavior" by Dean Hamer and Peter Copeland (c) 1994, Simon & Schuster ISBN 0-671-88724-6, that book contains a good summaries of the studies done through 1994. There have been about three published twin studies since then - all of which come to similiar conclusions - that sexual orientation has a genetic component. And homophobes are quick to point out that one of Dr. Hamer's assistants filed ethics charges against him last year - claiming that he had "fixed" the results of the studies to support a particular "agenda" (that same assistant had just been "born again"....). As of this date, the ethics charge has not been dismissed - but it will be shortly - since Dr. Hamer's research has already been duplicated and confirmed by a peer-review panel. PS> True. In homosexual males, the corpus callosum is larger (about the PS> same size as a heterosexual female's) and the preoptic area of the PS> hypothalamus is smaller (again, about the same size as a heterosexual PS> female's.) Correct. Also the anterior commissure, the massa intermedia and the amygdala of the human brain is noticeably different in size among homosexual males and heterosexual males (on the average). PS> Testosterone levels are about equal (within normal variances) PS> to those of heterosexual males, so *that* doesn't seem to be a factor. Correct. PS> I did learn today that the percentage of true homosexuals (not just those PS> practicing homosexual behavior) tends to be fairly constant throughout PS> cultures and even across species (6% of the total population, with PS> male homosexuals outnumbering female homosexuals by about 2-1). If this PS> is indeed true, then it would go a long way towards suggesting a mostly PS> physical component to homosexuality. I have seen this statistic before, as well, but I don't have a citation for it. If you find a citation, let me know.

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