[ref001] apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/13/96 apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/13/96 [00:48] nit
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/13/96
apologetics: DEBATE LOGS - 3/13/96
[00:48] nitelite (firstname.lastname@example.org) joined
[00:53] hi nitelite
[00:56] No Acolyte
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[01:01] seems so
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[01:09] grace and peace
[01:09] nitelite: anyone here?
[01:09] we are here
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[01:15] No apologies being issued tonight
[01:17] not yet
[01:18] Got any on hand ?
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[01:24] achimoth - somewhat suprised to find
[01:24] why? ;)
[01:24] seems as if you didnt want to hear
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[01:26] redraider: just upholding the channel
purpose on #bible
[01:26] nothing personal
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[02:07] Who is gonna knock me out?
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[02:09] Anyone here?
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[02:10] Hi Mac, Flagg
[02:10] yo all
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[02:11] why is no one talking
[02:11] hi fly
[02:11] just us farm poultry types.. ;)
[02:11] Momma said 'knock you out' is the way
the song is supposed to go
[02:11] is everyone in here a christian?
[02:11] I think so
[02:12] Any mormons?
[02:12] christianity sucks dead dogs
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[02:13] What is the topic?
[02:13] I thought they scuked on human flesh
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[02:13] flagg: ok... if you think that.. yer
welcome to it
[02:13] i don't think it I KNOW IT :)
[02:13] and I know that those who dent God
[02:14] your god is too "human" to be real :)
[02:14] deny God even
[02:14] "dent" God?
[02:14] your bible is a fary tale :)
[02:14] fairy tale even :)
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[02:14] oh yeah real nice flagg
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[02:14] Flagg: some fairty tale, one that
people have been willing to die for
[02:15] God loves CANNIBALISM!!!!!
[02:15] people died for hitler too :)
[02:15] Arch, people are willing to die for
just about anything. Does the name Jim Jones ring a
[02:15] QingWa: that's a stretch
[02:15] or David Koresh?
[02:15] ugh my typing is on the poor side
[02:15] those folks have one thing in common
they claim to be the Christ
[02:16] Jesus warned us that false Christs
[02:16] yeah so did a lot of people
[02:16] Well, christ claimed to be the saviour
[02:16] Nothing new.
[02:16] and they are just as deluted as you are
[02:16] QingWa: I love God, and I'm going to
[02:16] he was.. :)
[02:16] Of course he did, to make you think
he was it.
[02:16] Achi: Anyone can play the 'name-the
[02:16] achimouth can you give me proof?
[02:17] Flagg: we'll see who is deluded in
enternity.. if you are right then I'm dead.. if I'm
rught.. well... ;)
[02:17] right even
[02:17] Flagg: can you?
[02:17] I bet that if I started preaching the
bibble and told people I was "christ" some would believe
me and be willing to die for me
[02:17] fLagg: i have proof but you wont accept
[02:17] you have proof?
[02:17] Einstein: I cannot conceive of a
god who rewards and punishes his creatures or has a
will of the kind we experience in ourselves.
[02:18] then you have no faith
[02:18] if you have proof, faith is impossible
[02:18] W (email@example.com) got netsplit.
[02:18] Flagg: look up Rom. 1:20
[02:18] Flagg: maybe so. But if you made up
the idea of Christ, would YOU be willing to die for
[02:18] actually my proof came from ym faith
[02:18] your "god" would damn you for having no
[02:18] God loves death by stoning
[02:18] mt proof ccan only be believed by
[02:18] fly: How do we know that God tells the
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[02:19] faith: believing something that cannot
[02:19] Arch, explain Leviticus 19:28.
[02:19] Einstein: Neither can I- nor would
I want to- conceive of an individula that survives
his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or
absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.
[02:19] Flagg: and you rely on poor sematical
arguments to try and get a rise out of people..
[02:19] Action: Flagg A holocaust the christians want
you to forget (http://www.primenet.com/~ioseph/burnwitc.htm
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[02:19] flagg: then much of modern science
qualifies under fiath... heh
[02:19] faith even
[02:19] QingWa: If God didn't tell the truth,
what would the difference be. We would be toast anyway.
[02:19] no much of science is FACT and has been
[02:19] Mode change '+o W ' by okc.ok.us.undernet.org
[02:20] otherwise it's called THEORY
[02:20] fly-by: Excellent point!
[02:20] flagg: ahh, thats the big lie
[02:20] Fly: Well he doesnt tell the truth.
So we are toast.
[02:20] Archimoth....explain Levitius 20:13
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[02:20] Achimoth: How do you know God tells
[02:20] your own fairy tale says that most of
the people will be decieved... how do you know you
aren't being decieved?
[02:20] QingWa: I'm not toast, I am more like
[02:20] Flagg: faith.. ;)
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[02:21] how do you know that your "god" is the
[02:21] red: its self explanitory
[02:21] Flagg: faith
[02:21] ah there you go with "faith"
[02:21] i thought you had proof
[02:21] Arch, i said Leviticus 20:13
[02:21] Achimoth: How do you know God even tells
the truth? How do you know he doesnt lie?
[02:21] yes, I've seen my Savior
[02:21] Okay i see it
[02:21] if you have faith then you can't have
[02:22] flagg: wrong
[02:22] So we should kill homosexuals, is
that what the bible is saying?
[02:22] achimouth no I'm right :)
[02:22] Red: where does the bible say this?
[02:22] Flagg: are you sure?
[02:22] @@@exo 23:33
[02:22] Red: Of course that's what its saying,
assuming God isnt a liar
[02:22] asha, Leviticus 20:13
[02:22] Flagg: show me ANYTHING with absolute
[02:22] if god created liars then he is one
[02:22] he made us in "his image" right?
[02:23] Arch, are you going to answer me?
[02:23] why is your religion so warlike when
it preaches peace?
[02:23] Action: Flagg A holocaust the christians want
you to forget (http://www.primenet.com/~ioseph/burnwitc.htm
[02:24] The Bible has probably been the biggest
source of embarrasment for xtians. Maybe that is why
they keep rewriting it
[02:24] I still am waiting for an explaination.
[02:24] me too :)
[02:24] Flagg: a beautiful quote from King Arthur.
"There is a peace that is only to be found on the other
side of war"
[02:24] asha: Can you trust God's word as the
[02:24] What happened to Archimoth?
[02:25] How is the Bible the greatest embarassment
[02:25] um, your religion has killed over 5 million
people in 2000 years
[02:25] fly-by: so war is okay because you go
to heaven afterwards? or find peace in death afterwards?
[02:25] QingWa: I don't
[02:25] redtango: if one puts oneself under
Law, then he must abide by its rules..
[02:25] Flagg: you THINK you are right
[02:25] red: i did
[02:25] who says its my "religion"?
[02:26] Red: I am here
[02:26] Flagg: Theosophy killed 6 million
jews in WW2.. so?
[02:26] ach: I KNOW I AM :)
[02:26] and atheism killed millions more during
the Bolshevik revolution
[02:26] asha: smart move
[02:26] Flagg: if I killed people in your name,
does that necessarily mean that I represent you?
[02:26] and christianity killed 5,000,000 pagans
over the centuries... why?
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[02:26] Archimoth, so you advocate the murder
[02:26] What's going on?
[02:26] Is there anyone in here?
[02:26] heh matty
[02:26] Flagg: because men serve self instead
[02:26] fly: if I had told you to kill then yes
[02:27] Redtango: actually no...
[02:27] Flagg: God did not tell Christians to
kill 5 million people.
[02:27] See! I told you ! God IS a liar!!!!!
[02:27] QingWa: not necessarily, I am affected
by life more than the average 'sheep' xian because
[02:27] arch: why not?
[02:27] your bible did
[02:27] because I am not under Law but under
[02:27] Arch, but you subscribe to the bible...why
[02:27] um, redtango, his name is achimoth, not
[02:27] your bible is "the word of god"
[02:27] so yes he did tell them to kill
[02:27] QingWa: you are taking that out of context.
[02:27] Flagg: prove it
[02:28] fly: So is there a context that justifies
[02:28] asha, it doesnt matter as long as
he gets the message
[02:28] Flagg: brb?
[02:28] if you believe the bible - how come
you don't kill gays?
[02:28] QingWa: it doesn't say that God lies.
[02:28] Qingwa: he never lies, he allows those
who dont know him to believe a lie
[02:28] brb= be right back
[02:28] Red: I know, just didn't know if you
saw your typo
[02:28] be right back - brb
[02:29] right of punishment belongs to God
[02:29] MacBinary: for the same reason that
I don't kill politicians
[02:29] Achimoth, so God punishes gays?
[02:29] why would a GOD punish?
[02:29] Fly: All I have to prove is that he
is CAPABle of lying if he so chooses. He sent a delusion
'so they would believe the lie' Sounds an awful lot
like lying to me.
[02:30] Action: Flagg is getting proof :)
[02:30] fly: the bible says to kill politicians?
[02:30] Achi: Then why did he send a delusion?
[02:30] WHY would a GOD PUNISH?
[02:30] QingWa: in context the passage is saying
that God has allowed those who reject the truth to
believe a lie. If he didn't do that, he would not
be a God that allowed free thought.
[02:30] Qing Wa: to harden the hearts of those
who have rejected him.. he gives them over to their
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[02:31] Quoting a bible passage isnt an answer.
[02:31] Redtango: yes it is
[02:31] no it isnt.
[02:31] it doesnt mean anything.
[02:31] it says exactly what God does
[02:31] for the right-wing - unfortunately
[02:31] Redtango: then I cannot answer you,
as you reject my answer
[02:31] that's good to hear ach :)
[02:31] i am questioning the contents, then
you just give me the contents again.
[02:31] Action: asha is STILL wondering how/why a god
[02:32] Fly: he sent the delusion so that they
would believe. That is lying. You can deny it all you
want but it doesnt change the words that were written
in 2thes. Your god is an outright liar.
[02:32] Achimoth, are you saying that God
[02:32] RedTango: oh well, lifes a ... well,
you know.. ;)
[02:32] God punishes because he is just.
[02:32] Ach, yeah, especially if you are gay,
[02:32] fly: how do you know?
[02:32] God is just? Just what, stupid?
[02:32] to be honest, before I was Xian, i
was a bisexual
[02:32] fly-by: why would god punish though?
[02:33] just as in fair Red
[02:33] Fly: Which immediately brings into question
wether ANYTHING he says in the Bible is the truth.
How do you know you arent being deluded by what God
[02:33] why would a god who is omnipotent and
omnipresent create beings that he KNOWS won't believe
[02:33] asha, people punish themselves.
[02:33] ach: and you changed
[02:33] does he get his rocks off that way?
[02:33] Flagg: love not freely given is not
[02:33] if he wanted robots he wouldnt have
given us choice
[02:33] QingWa: because I haven't rejected God.
[02:34] Flagg: I think that I can answer that,
I'm not even Christian....... yes Achi, that's exactly
what I would have said (robot thing)
[02:34] Ach, we dont have choice, because
you have to pick Jesus or you fry. Thats not choice,
[02:34] why would he care if we were robots
[02:34] mac: actually, I still fight the desires
in my flesh, but I know that the Lord leads me through
the temptations of the flesh
[02:34] Flagg: he created us to be his children,
not his personal robots
[02:34] Flagg: why would you have children,
knowing the possiblility that they might become drug
[02:34] Fly: That doesnt mean you arent being
lied to. Alot of people are lied to by those they dont
[02:34] MacBin: what fun would it be if we were
[02:34] Ach, what is wrong with being bisexual?
[02:34] asha: we wouldn't know - what difference
would it make
[02:34] Redtango:wqrong, you chooose to be
apart from God, so he puts you apart from him, that
being the Lake of Fire
[02:34] he honors your choice
[02:35] redtango: it does not serve the purpose
[02:35] Achi: I thought that only false prophets
went to the lake of fire
[02:35] so all atheists are gonna burn then
[02:35] THERE'S my fucking proof
[02:35] See you all this is boring!
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[02:35] too warlike for me :)
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[02:36] Hi all !!!!
[02:36] why dont you join #CREED
[02:36] hi macg
[02:36] why does your god tell people to kill?
[02:36] Flagg: never told me to kill :)
[02:36] flagg: why do you kill?
[02:36] This whole argument is out of context
[02:36] fly: oh -0 why?
[02:37] Hey lets all hate our families!! Jesus
[02:37] Action: Flagg doesn't kill it's agenst his
[02:37] not to mention is based on their own
personal sense of right and wrong
[02:37] ach: whose own personal sense?
[02:37] so in God's ten big ones, he said thou
shalt not kill, and then he said in the bible that
you should at the same time? What the.........
[02:38] MacBinary: every Bible passage presented
is taken out of context.
[02:38] macbinary: each man has his own sense
of right and wrong, and without God, that sense of
right and wrong(or conscience) is numbed over time.
[02:38] I_tim 2:11
[02:38] Hey God wants us to smash babies against