To : Charlie Ray Subj: Evolution Charlie Ray, who thinks tribology is slick, said to: Matt
From: Marty Leipzig 17 Jul 94 15:12
To : Charlie Ray
Charlie Ray, who thinks tribology is slick, said to: Matt Giwer
CR> This list is all interpretative information regarding supposedly
CR> transitional FOSSILS. You made the claim that evolution was going on
CR> in the contemporary animal world where species have recently
CR> transformed into other species. Let's see it, Matt. Otherwise, I must
CR> assume that you are attempting to misdirect your response.
Well, if Matt doesn't, I will.
In the genus _Tragopogon_ (a plant genus consisting mostly of
diploids), two new species (_T. mirus_ and _T. miscellus_) have
evolved. This occurred within the past 50-60 years. The new species
are allopolyploid descendants of two separate diploid parent
Here is how the speciation occurred. The new species were formed when
one diploid species fertilized a different diploid species and
produced a tetraploid offspring. This tetraploid offspring could not
fertilize or be fertilized by either of it's two parent species
types. It is reproductively isolated, the definition of a species.
Two other plant species have also arisen within the past 110 years
in this manner, _Senecio cambrensis_ and _Spartina townsendii_.
Here's the ref:
Ashton and Abbot, 1992, Multiple origins and genetic diversity in
the newly arisen allopolyploid species _Senicio cambrensis_ Rosser
(Compositae), Heredity 68:25
Further, here is a short list of referenced speciation events.
I picked four relatively well-known examples, from about a dozen
that I had documented in materials that I have around my home.
These are all common knowledge, and by no means do they encompass
all or most of the available examples.
A strain of _Drosophilia paulistorum_ developed hybrid sterility
after being isolated in the lab for only a couple of years.
(Test for speciation: offspring are not fertile, like horse vs.
Dobzhansky, Th., and Pavlovsky, O.,1971. An experimentally
created incipient species of Drosophilia, _Nature_ 23:289-292.
Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of the
chromosome count from the original stock.
(Test for speciation: cannot produce offspring with the original
Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in _Epilobium
angustifolium_ (Onaagraceae)", _Evolution_ 21:713-719
Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which
occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature
to the island.
(Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology. It is
unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been performed
with the parent stock.)
Stanley, S., 1979. _Macroevolution: Pattern and Process_, San
Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41
Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed
since they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the
parent stock, Lake Nagubago.
(Test for speciation in this case is by morphology and lack of
natural interbreeding. These fish have complex mating rituals
and different coloration. While it might be possible that
different species are inter-fertile, they cannot be convinced to
Mayr, E., 1970. _Populations, Species, and Evolution_,
Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348
And if that's not enough...
An article on page 22 of the February, 1989 issue of Scientific
American. It's called "A Breed Apart." It tells about studies
conducted on a fruit fly, _Rhagoletis pomonella_, that is a parasite
of the hawthorn tree and its fruit, which is commonly called the
thorn apple. About 150 years ago, some of these flies began infesting
apple trees, as well. The flies feed an breed on either apples or
thorn apples, but not both. There's enough evidence to convince the
scientific investigators that they're witnessing speciation in action.
Note that some of the investigators set out to prove that speciation was
not happening; the evidence convinced them otherwise.
Just a smattering of a HUGE database of articles: (1991 only)
1) Bullini, L and Nascetti, G, 1991, Speciation by Hybridization in
phasmids and other insects, Canadian Journal of Zoology, Volume
68(8), pages 1747-1760.
2) Ramadevon, S and Deaken, M.A.B., 1991, The Gibbons speciation
mechanism, Journal of Theoretical Biology, Volume 145(4) pages
3) Sharman, G.B., Close, R.L, Maynes, G.M., 1991, Chromosome
evolution, phylogony, and speciation of rock wallabies,
Australian Journal of Zoology, Volume 37(2-4), pages 351-363.
4) Werth, C. R., and Windham, M.D., 1991, A model for divergent,
allopatric, speciation of polyploid pteridophytes resulting from
silencing of duplicate-gene expression, AM-Natural, Volume
5) Spooner, D.M., Sytsma, K.J., Smith, J., A Molecular
reexamination of diploid hybrid speciation of
Solanum-raphanifolum, Evolution, Volume 45, Number 3, pages
6) Arnold, M.L., Buckner, C.M., Robinson, J.J., 1991,
Pollen-mediated introgression and hybrid speciation in Louisana
Irises, P-NAS-US, Volume 88, Number 4, pages 1398-1402.
7) Nevo, E., 1991, Evolutionary Theory and process of active
speciation and adaptive radiation in subterranean mole rats,
spalax-ehrenbergi superspecies, in Isreal, Evolutionary Biology,
Volume 25, pages 1-125.
CR> Moreover, this list you give is old news and really doesn't prove
CR> beyond all doubt that these are transitional forms, though admittedly
CR> some do seem to be so. The point is that you claimed that this process
CR> is happening today and that you could provide proof. Let's see it.
There it is, Charlie.
Now, care to humbly admit publicly that you are wrong?
CR> Sincerely yours in Christ,
Sincerely yours in Science,
CR> Rev. Charlie Ray
The Explicitly Reverend Dr. Martin R. Leipzig, BS, MS, PhD, FCISGS
*.. Creationism is nothing more than a Gish wish.
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