Subject: Evolution I am new to this discussion; I hope I have not grossly misunderstood an

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From: Michael Serfas Subject: Evolution I am new to this discussion; I hope I have not grossly misunderstood anyone... I am one who spends his days in the admiration of God's work, and who spends his nights blaspheming His name. What God? The God of Christianity, the Allah of Islam, the Yahweh of Judaism, and, perhaps, the Krsna of Hinduism --- all of which I suspect to be aspects of a single, real god - the god of Evolution. Consider the Old Testament shared by Judaism/Christianity/Islam. It says that God created all life, and indeed evolution did. It told Abraham that if he followed God's laws that his offspring would be as numerous as the grains of sand... natural selection was fulfilled. For evolution is the god of life and of death, the god of judgments, the god of famine and plague and war. Evolution is the god of laws, and as he has created societies just as he has created cells and living beings. Consider specifically the points of the Old Testament in terms of its viability as a self-replicating system: A VIRUS. Women were to be treated as chattel, kept married to some man, kept PREGNANT. Never mind the reasons, the point is that they WERE pregnant and were producing new offspring constantly ... helping to insure that THAT religion and no other would be believed by those who came after. The men were all expected/required to go out and make war, doing their part to insure the system lived on. Homosexuals were killed to frighten people into reproduction. Any who did not believe the religion, the women and children of the enemy, the blasphemer at home, were killed. The reason why Judaism/Christianity/Islam are believed now, is that these beliefs propagated themselves in this manner. In Christianity and Islam the element of forced conversion of belief is also added. You ask why the fundies are so intolerant... because religions that were tolerant of others were wiped out! How can the peaceful outfight those who devote all energy to war? Perhaps Krsna is different... Perhaps Hinduism has succeeded for some other reason; perhaps it is not just another excuse for war and reproduction. But I have read over the database to some extent at least, and despite an indignant denial I see some points of correlation to the fundies you love to hate. On the good side, just like them, you say that you find a true peace in obeying God's will. You have a tradition stretching back thousands of years and holy books that say that your religion is right. And on the bad side I have seen quotes about how people can be doomed, to endlessly regress through lower species of life, to go to hells, to be JUDGED (and what else is evolution all about, but judgement of who will die and who will live on forever?) You talk about people as if they can be dead inside, and different from you... US and THEM, the same as so many others, the same way that people can bomb Iraq??? You I'm sure will say that you are different from your enemies, because they attack you and you do not attack them. That is true. But is this evidence in favor of your faith, IF it is based only on holy books and laws... or is it evidence that there is some other standard of morality, a truer one, which people can find in their hearts and follow because it is intrinsically right? If I were a fundie, I could go out and eat my meat all the time, and have faith in God and the Bible, and know I was going to heaven and the Krsnas were going to Hell. If I were a Krsna, I could go out and do (well, I'm not quite sure what Krsna allows that fundies don't, but something) and know I would go to live someday on Krsnaloka, and that the meat-eating fundies would be doomed to become insects, bacteria, worse and worse. In both cases I would have faith. In both cases I would help my ideas to spread. ~ I would not be talking to you if I were not open to correction. The mere fact that you have chosen to believe the way you do is proof-positive that part of what you believe is right. Even a virus must in some way mimic something the host cell really needs, and in nature the boundary between virus and symbiote, poison and nutrient, life and death, blurs to the point where one can realize that anything is possible. From: Vaishnava Dasa Subject: Re: Evolution > aspects of a single, real god - the god of Evolution. Consider the > Old Testament shared by Judaism/Christianity/Islam. It says that God > created all life, and indeed evolution did. There is no god of Evolution, but a theory of evolution, or evolution theory. Evolution theory suggests that life begins with chemical combination. However, there has been no empirical evidence to produce life, at any elementary or advanced stage, simply by combining chemicals in the laboratory. It can't be said that evolution created life. We see life coming from life, not life coming from chemicals. We see that you had a father, and he had a father and so on and so on back through history, until you get to God, the cause of all causes. So we say the original cause for everything is God and don't accept the theory of life arising from chemical combination at any stage. > frighten people into reproduction. Any who did not believe the > religion, the women and children of the enemy, the blasphemer at home, > were killed. This was popular during the "dark ages" where religious intolerance was popular. > Christianity and Islam the element of forced conversion of belief is > also added. You ask why the fundies are so intolerant... because > religions that were tolerant of others were wiped out! In the case of the Vedic followers, they were tolerant of others, yet they still remain today. For example, prior to Christ, Buddha appeared in India and afterwards, there was no movement to drive Buddhists out of India, or make them convert. After that, Moslems invaded India, still there was no movement to oust the Moslems. Christians have also come into India and no ouster was done. In recent years, the trouble between Hindus and Moslems arose because of political reasons, the Moslim leader swore to give India its bloodiest war in history if the Moslems did not get their own separate state. Therefore, the partitioning of India into Pakistan and Hindustan was done. Otherwise religion does not always mean intolerance of other religions. > How can the > peaceful outfight those who devote all energy to war? Being peaceful and loving peace does not mean that one ignores preparations for fighting. Keeping peace means that one must fight as a last resort, when necessary. Just like Krishna - He had to teach this lesson to His friend, Arjuna, and that is the whole subject matter of the famous Bhagavad-gita that is praised by scholars and great thinkers today, 5,000 years after it's writing. Arjuna was a religious man and a lover of peace, yet, he was convinced that waging war against an agressor was his religious duty. It is not that a person becomes religious and then never lifts a finger to stop the evil and demoniac elements in society. That is not religious, that is cowardace. > Perhaps Krsna is different... Perhaps Hinduism has succeeded for > some other reason; perhaps it is not just another excuse for war and > reproduction. But I have read over the database to some extent at > least, and despite an indignant denial I see some points of > correlation to the fundies you love to hate. Fundamentalism has come to mean intolerance of other's religion, blindly following dogma, armchair speculative religion, and interpreting scripture to suit ones mental speculations. The Vedic philosophy is based on knowledge. We don't go by designations like "Hindu," "Christian," "Buddhist," "Atheist," "American," "Iraqi," or any other designation pertaining to the body. Therefore, there is no question of intolerance against others. > And on the bad side I have seen > quotes about how people can be doomed, to endlessly regress through > lower species of life, to go to hells, to be JUDGED (and what else is > evolution all about, but judgement of who will die and who will live > on forever?) You talk about people as if they can be dead inside, and > different from you... US and THEM, the same as so many others, the > same way that people can bomb Iraq??? There must be an "us and them" mentality - a divine and a demoniac mentality. This is called "discrimination." "Discrimination is the better part of valor." Everyone must discriminate. Our court system discriminates between citizen and criminal, as well as God discriminates between divine and demoniac qualities. There is nothing wrong with discrimination provided that it is done lawfully. > But is this evidence in favor of your faith, IF it is based only on > holy books and laws... or is it evidence that there is some other > standard of morality, a truer one, which people can find in their > hearts and follow because it is intrinsically right? The holy books and laws lead to Krishna, who is situated in ones one heart, so the process is not an artificial imposition on the mind of anyone. Right now, everyone has forgotten Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and by thinking of Him, talking about Him, etc., just like an amnesiac, one can begin to remember one's relationship with Him by this process. Love of God is deep down within the hearts of everyone, just as fire is contained in an unlit match. All it needs is to be ignited by the process of hearing about God from authorized sources, then the deep-down love of God will become fact, not imagination.

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