(22043) Sat 30 Jun 90 8:50p By: Gil Wilkes To: Aaron Johnson @ 914/801 Re: Why are you off

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(22043) Sat 30 Jun 90 8:50p By: Gil Wilkes To: Aaron Johnson @ 914/801 Re: Why are you offended? St: ------------------------------------------------------------ i hope, Aaron, that you have a few minutes on your hands, if not, i suggest you relegate this message to a "capture file" for consumption at a more convenient time, its kind of long. i kind of enjoyed the novelty of your message, and had a good time coming up with answers to your charges, so i got carried away. Pls call (write, post) again! Message #1175 "Open Bible Echo" Date: 27-Jun-90 20:00 From: Aaron Johnson @ 914/801 To: Gil Wilkes Subj: Re: Somewhat Critical Thinkers >Previous Reply is Message #982. > OK..I am offended...why? FIRST: Wow, you took me by surprise, are you new here Aaron? If so then welcome, and thank you for sharing what you shared with me. If not, i'm sorry we've never exchanged our views before, you seem both sincere and committed and even though i fall into a provincial and narrow minded category of humanity (ask Vlad or Harlow), i do respect these things. -oh, sorry if i offended you, nothing personal -ok? >Jesus NEVER said he was the son of God, he said he was ONE >with God, >and wanted us all to realize this. True, good point. And yet, Jesus did address God as "Father". He further instructed us to do the same, Fatherhood being the metaphor the Lord chose to illustrate His relationship to the Father, and through the Lord, we may also enjoy that same relationship -do i sound too preachy? Sorry. Bear with me. > How did he perform the miracles? Easy....Magick. >Magick is something you can do with you mind. Jesus was a >powerful Magician and realized we are all one with God. Have you ever read "Magik [Crowley always spelled magick "Magik"] in Theory and Practice" by Crowley, or Levi's "Equinox", or maybe Sir James G Frazer's "The Golden Bough"? If not, i would recommend Fazer's "Golden Bough", -skip the other two (their full of ranting, reviling and speculation and all manner of useless and demonic idiocy, and you have to work your way through all of this to find anything useful, -like what these people really believe, hardly worth your precious time), it'll give you an excellent (unbiased and anthropological) understanding of the ancient belief system in which magic dwells. Magik, and all Pagan belief systems rest upon a "theology of continuity", that is, a denial of the creator/creature distinction (extremely important in orthodox theology), -and the assertion of a continuity between heaven and earth. A belief that "all being is one being, and the god therefore was an ascended man on that scale of being" (Fr Micheli, "Antichrist", an excellent primer for basic theological principles). Thus, in the Pagan mind, that Caesar is god is not a contradiction in terms, for human power to become divine power is not inconsistent. Pagan worship and magical practices are based upon the principle of "cultus". Cult comes from the same word as the word "cultivate", like tilling the soil, "the aim of the action being the production of some benefit by the object of attention" ("New Westminster Dictionary of Liturgy") -such as tilling the soil yields, hopefully, a harvest. Christian worship, in contrast, comes not from below (the human side, human effort or labor) but from above. The substance of our worship, the very essence of our worship is "Eucharistic", that is, not bartering or cajoling (we are taught to pray for temporal blessings, we do not, however, offer anything in return or attempt to cut a "deal" with the Lord, his gifts are without cost and given as He wills, -so why don't you ask the source now and again, Aaron, especially if you have questions concerning Him), but rather thanking the Lord for what has been done. (Sympathetic) Magik (contagious or homeopathic magik, as opposed to stage magic, -illusion and what not) is based on the pagan "doctrine of sympathies" ("microcosm equals macrocosm", "As above, so below", "Like produces Like", to quote a few notorious Pagan sources), the pagan idea that to "trouble a leaf will disturb a star", the idea that the universe is bound by compensatory relationships of sympathy. The first law of sympathetic magic is that to produce a given result merely imitate it! According to Frazer: "Homeopathic magic is founded on the association of ideas by similarity: contagious magic is founded on the association of ideas by contiguity. Homeopathic magic commits the mistake of assuming that things which resemble each other are the same: contagious magic commits the mistake of assuming that things which have once been in contact with each other are always in contact... but in practice, the two are often combined..." Thus will voo-doo dolls be configured to resemble the intended victim, complete with effects stolen from said victim, thus the occult use of symbols to attempt to affect the "real world" (red hexagrams penciled on photographs as a curse, and ect). Thus will rain charms often involved splashing water (rain) and beating drums (thunder). Frazer further comments: ...as he sometimes believes, to become incarnate in his own person, then he need appeal to no higher being; he, the savage, possesses in himself all the power necessary ot further his own well being and that of his fellow-man (sound kind of secular-humanist, eh'what? i hope Harlow listens in). In the universe, the way the pagan mind constructs it, that we are all "one with God" (as you state Jesus taught) would be perfectly sound teaching. In the Christian universe, that would be a metaphysical impossibility, -almost funny, actually, there is a sharp distinction in Christian teaching, between the creature, and his Creator. The Lord is the Lord, and the creature the creature, and though we may (and i pray that we do, or we will, together) through Christ "participate in the Divine Nature" (apostle Peter), alas, you and i will never be divine or enjoy the arbitrary exercise of the power ascribed thereto. The pagans on the network will want to remind me how much i deleted (or misunderstood, in which case i suggest they refer to the sources i mentioned above), my purpose was not to teach a course in pagan theology (rather unqualified anyhow) but rather to provide a contrast for the person of Jesus and the nature of His activity as revealed in the scriptures and through his Holy Church. As for the activity of our Lord, his works were not of the imposture of magik, but rather of the Nature of His being, He was God (the Son, we're a "Trinitarian lot, we are). Only a being of infinate power could create being from non-being (He is the Author of creation, the first born from among the dead), and further champion creation from chaos and forge light out of darkness, and only a single being could have done this. And all things (the Son). Only a being of infinate power could create being from non-being (He is the Author of creation, the first born from among the dead), and further champion creation from chaos and forge light out of darkness, and only a single being could have done this. And all things are governed and sustained by Him. It is perfectly consistent that this being, Incarnate, would command nature and nature would obey. Nature is his creature, this is not the invasion and conquest of some alien usurper, this is the return of the rightful King and Heir, to begin the restoration to the natural, created order, and creation celebrates His Name. > Prove me wrong WITHOUT quoting from the bible. You >can, but you must realize the bible is wrong in some >areas. For instance" See, i haven't quoted scripture yet! We believe our faith to be dialectically right in line with human reason, so i really don't mind accommodating you. i know some people get really turned off when Christians start reciting from the Bible, so if it promotes and encourages peace between us, i'll lay off direct quotes and try in stead to communicate our teachings and traditions through other means. Further, "proving you wrong" doesn't interest me, i haven't entered my crusader, "convert or destroy" mode, and in this way, we can lay off trying to best one another and try instead to learn more about each others beliefs. > God tells man" MAN SHALL RULE OF WOMEN" but this makes >no sense, and he also told Judah to kill MILLIONS of Baal >Worshippers..(this is in YOUR so called bible)...Baal is >defined as the God of GOOD IN YOUR BIBLE. God kills him >and the worshippers... Further, "proving you wrong" doesn't interest me, i haven't entered my crusader, "convert or destroy" mode, and in this way, we can lay off trying to best one another and try instead to learn more about each others beliefs. > God tells man" MAN SHALL RULE OF WOMEN" but this makes >no sense, and he also told Judah to kill MILLIONS of Baal >Worshippers..(this is in YOUR so called bible)...Baal is >defined as the God of GOOD IN YOUR BIBLE. God kills him >and the worshippers... Um... the Lord didn't ever tell us to "rule" females (would that he had!), rather, he gifted males and females with each other, bonding them with complimentary and compensatory roles (defined ambiguously), so we could love each other, escape loneliness and alienation, perpetuate our selves (participate in the creative and sustaining activity of the Lord) and avoid killing each other. The [functional] family is the primary humanizing agency and protector of our freedom (not political freedom as defined in our time, but rather the intimate and personal freedom that grows within the inner, secular structures of human relationships, -that no political order can bestow or deny, the freedom to be human, it is a grace offered to our entire race) of any society, without it, we become something akin to an anthill, or a bee hive (or something like gender feminism would like to achieve, a society of androgynous, mutant gender benders). Baal means "master", or "lord", and refers specifically to a Caananite Deity of wide circulation. Baal commanded of his children a rather grizzley sacrament involving the immolation of toddlers. The priests of Baal were murderers. Please do not defend the priests of Baal. -also, do not imagine that this is the worst thing that Our Lord commanded us to do, you should look into the "Herem" principle, whereas an enemy people, their warriors, men, women, children, animals, even material possessions were executed and immolated. If you would like me to pursue this subject in detail, please advise. There is a beautiful passage of scripture (one quote, ok? pls forgive me) in Hosea, in which the Lord tells us "...in those days you will call me no more "baali" (master, an allusion to slavery and to Baal worship) but you will call me "ishi" (husband, an illusion to the Church, who is the bride of Christ). i just had to share something positive with you, all of that other stuff is rather a downer, don't you think, i mean, except for the stuff about the Lord and all. > Please..give me your comments. If you really want to get deep into this stuff, and not just scratch the surface, then it would do you well to post a message to Pedro Vega, Rick Carrol or Tim of- Angle, they are far more qualified to deal with subject matter like this. Since my "bunji jumping" accident last Wkend (a tad too much line, i'm afaid, a tad is all it takes to ruin an otherwise perfect Wkend), i've been having a little trouble finding a coherent thought in my head, and have subsisted on a diet of Pepsi-Cola and Tylonal III, i can't even blink both of my eyes at once, so please excuse me. i'm going to try hang gliding next time. Beyond that, i enjoyed fielding your questions and pray that my answers satisfied you, if not, please post me you questions/comments and let me try again. -peace/gvw --- QuickBBS 2.64/O (Reg) * Origin: 6/2/90 - New number for Berean BBS, (317)328-9244 (1:231/170)

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